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PTS Dragonhold Feedback Notes for Class Rep Meeting
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Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.0 -
Epicasballs✭✭✭✭2h has no stun or snare anymore. These are crucial to pvp. Stam Sorc has no stamina based cc or any snare in their kit. We used 2h for these crucial abilities. Now that they're gone can we get compensated in same way?
Auxiliary effects have been getting pruned from so many skills I might be dropping Bound Armaments next update, despite its new rework, to make room on my bar for the fighters guild fear. It's a bit disheartening to have your only flex spot on live reworked into a cool new ability that you'll have to drop because you need a cc. I'm used to not having the damage from Bound and it's the only skill I can reasonably make an accuse for dropping for a cc.
I run 2h/bow in pvp so I already don't have a snare but pvping without a snare or a cc... why even bother? I get you can partial heavy for a cc against an off balance enemy but you're living in a fairytale if you think anyone with thumbs will let you dizzy into a partial heavy.1 -
crashen17b14_ESO✭✭✭Can we talk about Nightblade's Path of Shadows? And Nightblade healing in general? Path of Shadows used to be a core part of the Nightblade healer kit, a cornerstone of the "hurting to heal" flavor, alongside Health Funnel. What Nightblade healers lacked in utility (cleanse, synergies, resource restores, useful debuffs, direct heals, team buffs) they made up for in added damage and playing as an aggressive healer.
Then they halved the damage of Health Funnel and split Path of Shadows into two equally useless morphs. One does a piddling amount of damage slowly, and the other does a piddling amount of healing. It was nerfed again with this patch. And the unmorphed form just.... it's really bad. A small hallway of speed boost for a few seconds? And thats it?
It was redesigned for... some reason. It was never clear what they were thinking. Meanwhile, Ritual of Retribution for Templars does everything Refreshing Path did, and more. It's a larger circular AoE that deals damage, heals, AND cleanses.
Not going to lie, these changes made me shelf my magblade healer, and I basically quit from Murkmire to Elsewyr where I created a magcro. My magblade is basically untouched now and even after all this time the changes still *** me off.
So I would love to get some insight into the thought process of the devs when they felt the need to "adjust" Refreshing Path because it did too much, but left Ritual of Retribution totally untouched.7 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Idk about PC but the 30 day campaign on xbox has always been populated. Ever since haderus which I belive was the 7 day. Once the campaigns changed vivec was always the main and shor was always the second. Back in the days of haderus the secondary campaign used to see a lot of players here. But with shor and vivec, it was a doward spiral for shor over the years. I believe this is due to pvp players giving up because of zenimaxs shameful, severe, neglect of pvp and performance.. I mean we used to call haderus lagerus, but it was never even close to how bad the 30 day is these days..
Now the 7 day on xbox is dead. Every campaign on xbox is dead except for the 30 day. Im not sure that it was all that different in the one, maybe two, updates before the alliance lock was put in. Its hard to tell since the 7 days pop has been dwindling down for years. Regardless. I know the general consensus is that people dislike the faction lock.
But I would think that if people didnt like the faction lock they would just play in the 7 day but this is obviously not the case.
This is pretty much a mirror of what happened on PC. People go to the CP 30 day because that's where the fights are. I see plenty of people on 30 day that used to play 7 day (like me) and finally gave up trying to play on a dead map.
Here's what I think needs to happen:
1) All the campaigns are renamed and everyone is unhomed at patch release
2) Before patch release, ZOS tells us the names and rulesets of each of the new campaigns
Why #2? Because guilds talk to each other, and starting a conversation *before* release about who wants to play where is going to help build a campaign. Any of the campaigns. People like to say guilds don't fight guilds but it's not true, it's like having a ham sandwich and potato chips. Potato chips have appeal, but you really want a good meaty fight to show up or it's empty salt.
Ultimately if there aren't fights to be had on both locked and unlocked campaigns, the pop will shift to one or the other. And it might not have anything at all to do with caring about faction locks or not.2 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.Edited by Royalthought on September 27, 2019 8:32PM0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭
"highest skill cap execute" (Not even an execute skill btw, even if you are using it to finish people off.)
"Lemme get all muh "small scaler" bois to hit on this one random guy running away and hope for him to die randomly to unavoidable damage unless he wants to burn all his mag on purge."
Yeah, I'm out.
I use POL for two things. To make it easier to identify targets when fighting outnumbered and as an execute to finish my targets off. You can argue semantics if you like since you don't have any other valid argument but the reality is most stamplars play it that way.
When I say highest skill cap I say that in comparison to the following executes none of which require any condition other than the target being in execute range. Even easier in the case of mag toons is the range which reduces your exposure for incoming damage versus melee
Mag
Mages Wrath 28m range with splash damage
Jesus Beam 28m range with very high damage
Impale 25m range
Stam
Killers Blade
Whirlwind
Executioner
In order for me to get my POL to pop for high damage i need to be in melee range and do a full rotation just to make it do anywhere close to the damage these other executes are capable of (save maybe for whirling blades). Also because of the time component there is a chance the target can LOS, purge or get healed.
So please before you spout off again try playing the class in a solo / small scale environment. If you are a zergling or just a trashcan at the game move along. Your opinions are worthless.
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icefyer_ESO✭✭✭If I may, I hope you bring up the fact that necromancer corpses made using skills don't last very long, making them difficult, if not impossible, to actually use them in hectic situations, and that you guys take a look at the Necro's AoE burst heal, as it needs a corpse just to be even with the Warden's version for a higher cost, which means that not only does it require a much harder set-up, if no one stands in the circle it creates afterward it feels rather wasted in addition to the fact the Warden can simply leave it on the field to benefit from a HoT, which the necro can't do without a corpse, and comes out much weaker than the 'place and pop' of the Warden. Perhaps make the burst scale with the corpse as well as the HoT if it must require one? In otherwords, compared to the Warden and perhaps Templar, the AoE heal of the necro feels a bit lacking in power due to the difficulty of setting up its trigger and the fact that the trigger condition only brings it equal to the Warden's rather than making it powerful, resulting in way more effort required for the same results (and that's if you can even get a corpse where it's needed in the first place with Blastbone bugs making it difficult to place a corpse at the tank's feet unless you want to hug up against the boss with the bone armor or healing spirit which can get you killed) which in the end doesn't feel very good and makes it difficult to use and at times justify space on the bar.Edited by icefyer_ESO on September 27, 2019 11:29PM1
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WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Is there one class rep that PvP' s - group open world - solo open world - solo bgs and group bgs ? Or are they mainly focusing on PvE ?0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »Is there one class rep that PvP' s - group open world - solo open world - solo bgs and group bgs ? Or are they mainly focusing on PvE ?
The guy in charge of combat hates doing pve content (which is pretty obvious really), so don’t worry.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.
Thanks for being so informative.
But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"
It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.
Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.0 -
GloryClass RepresentativeShokasegambit1 wrote: »Is there one class rep that PvP' s - group open world - solo open world - solo bgs and group bgs ? Or are they mainly focusing on PvE ?
Yes, there are several of us.
I've been on PTS a lot this content cycle, and it's definitely been interesting to see the pain points and changes that have happened.mDK will rise again.
Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.
@Glorious since I have too many characters to list
Ádamant
Strongly against Faction Lock2 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just my opinion:
1. DOT's are far too under-powered. What's the point of using a skill that takes 10 seconds to do the same damage as 1 hit from a direct damage spammable?
2. The ratio of AOE cost to damage is far too high. If the costs are to stay high, the damage needs to be worth the investment. Otherwise the costs needs to come down significantly. Like DOT's, they become another set of skills not worth slotting, which further dilutes the big class identity vision that is supposed to be ongoing.
3. Sustain. Please don't make us fight the combat system itself. I well thought-out build that doesn't abuse high costs skills should be able to reasonably sustain. Currently, if you're not parsing on a trial dummy, sustain is a real pain point that just erodes at the idea of fun and rewarding combat.
4. Change fatigue is real. From my experience with other guild members, enthusiasm for combat in this game is in a downward spiral. Too many big changes too quickly without any real communication as to why, makes investing time in pretty pointless. DOT's are a prime example. One patch they're buffed to meta...the next they're nerfed to obscurity. And now the 30-60% nerfs across the board with some significant cost increases. What are players to think? Or perhaps the point is it doesn't really matter what we think.
All thinks considered, this update stinks.5 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with everything they brought up. Now, will ZOS listen? Probably not.2 -
eso_lags✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Idk about PC but the 30 day campaign on xbox has always been populated. Ever since haderus which I belive was the 7 day. Once the campaigns changed vivec was always the main and shor was always the second. Back in the days of haderus the secondary campaign used to see a lot of players here. But with shor and vivec, it was a doward spiral for shor over the years. I believe this is due to pvp players giving up because of zenimaxs shameful, severe, neglect of pvp and performance.. I mean we used to call haderus lagerus, but it was never even close to how bad the 30 day is these days..
Now the 7 day on xbox is dead. Every campaign on xbox is dead except for the 30 day. Im not sure that it was all that different in the one, maybe two, updates before the alliance lock was put in. Its hard to tell since the 7 days pop has been dwindling down for years. Regardless. I know the general consensus is that people dislike the faction lock.
But I would think that if people didnt like the faction lock they would just play in the 7 day but this is obviously not the case.
This is pretty much a mirror of what happened on PC. People go to the CP 30 day because that's where the fights are. I see plenty of people on 30 day that used to play 7 day (like me) and finally gave up trying to play on a dead map.
Here's what I think needs to happen:
1) All the campaigns are renamed and everyone is unhomed at patch release
2) Before patch release, ZOS tells us the names and rulesets of each of the new campaigns
Why #2? Because guilds talk to each other, and starting a conversation *before* release about who wants to play where is going to help build a campaign. Any of the campaigns. People like to say guilds don't fight guilds but it's not true, it's like having a ham sandwich and potato chips. Potato chips have appeal, but you really want a good meaty fight to show up or it's empty salt.
Ultimately if there aren't fights to be had on both locked and unlocked campaigns, the pop will shift to one or the other. And it might not have anything at all to do with caring about faction locks or not.
Ya but like i said the 7 day had been on a downward spirial, on xbox, for a long time before the camp lock or the camp renames. Like even during morrowind it used to get 3 bars sometimes. Even during summerset it used to get 3 bars sometimes, less often but sometimes. I haven't seen that thing have 2 bars in a while now. Even 1 bar is rare.
I think zos has just chased away a lot of players because of years of declining performance, that is currently worse than ever. Plus nerfs and changes people dont want, like the faction lock. But you know something, I know everyone lags in that 30 day. I see people complaining about it every time i go in there. And yet they still play under those nearly unplayable conditions. Why? I guess because even a laggy unplayable campign with your friends is better than a dead campaign where you barely ever see someone.
Idk what the answer is but that 7 day needs help. They need to find a way to get people in it. No CP is another story, at least people play that on PC.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.
Thanks for being so informative.
But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"
It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.
Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.
No, you have shown you don't get our arguments, why they are right, and now you want to stubbornly ignore our explanations. You even discarded them with a lol.
We can end this discussion peacefully. But know this: you are objectively wrong.
Aaand that would be it for me. Case settled, if you wish.0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.
Thanks for being so informative.
But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"
It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.
Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.
No, you have shown you don't get our arguments, why they are right, and now you want to stubbornly ignore our explanations. You even discarded them with a lol.
We can end this discussion peacefully. But know this: you are objectively wrong.
Aaand that would be it for me. Case settled, if you wish.
Just noticed something. "Our."
It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident.
Perhaps reread the discussion. Your input had zero to do with the discussion. I told you it didn't involve me but you insisted on directing it towards me.
Listen, it's no "our." No "we." Just YOU. What you desire to discuss has no value to me. Your conversation has been rejected. Sorry. Talk about something other than me.
For example:
Ranged CC
- 28 meters was only an issue with master clench builds.
- Lowering the damage on knockbacks to devalue them as spammable's wouldve solved the problem.
- Draining shot has no knock back. Why are the knock back nerfs still applied.
Edited by Royalthought on September 29, 2019 12:27AM0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »Is there one class rep that PvP' s - group open world - solo open world - solo bgs and group bgs ? Or are they mainly focusing on PvE ?
The guy in charge of combat hates doing pve content (which is pretty obvious really), so don’t worry.
Your talking about @Gilliamtherogue ? Ya - umm he doesnt to open world solo pvp or group open world pvp. Only solo bgs and lil group bgs
So I'm confused who are you talking about ?
And @ZOS_BrianWheeler is the lead designer of combat in PvP and PvP' s very rearley from what I know. He just gets feedback from @Gilliamtherogue
There is not one class rep that is a true PvP'er. From what I see...Edited by WeylandLabs on September 29, 2019 12:28AM1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »DoTs are not fine either on Live or Pts, but swing too damn hard.
Anywhere between 1.65x and 1.8x will make it worth the skill, cost and the fact it takes a length of time to deal.
I think 1.65x or 1.8x is too much. It would mean 65% to 80% more damage per global cooldown invested. That is a huge difference.
In PvE Boss fights all that matters is DPS per GCD as bosses live long enough for DoTs to expire and usually don't cleanse. And 25% more as currently provided on PTS should be more than enough. The only reason you still use spammables in PVE is b/c DoTs from the same person don't stack. If they could, everybody would just be spamming DoTs as they provide 25% more DPS than a direct damage equivalent.
In PvP Heals and Shields are based on absolute values (unlike block and dodge and cloak) and are not calibrated for such damage levels. Sure you could increase Shields and Heals, but that would mean they become too strong against direct damage attacks.
@brandoncoffmannub18_ESO I think you’re right with those ratios, maybe even go as high as 2 with long duration AoE DoTs since it is difficult to keep the enemy in the small area.
@Galarthor You’re not considering all the other factors that go into the DoT vs direct comparison. On PTS right now one spammable deals as much as a “1.25X” DoT because it is optimal to stack CP’s into Master at Arms for around 24% bonus, while neglecting Thaumaturge. DoTs also take up several bar spaces, while direct damage spammable can be accompanied by a bar full of passives and buffs like Inner Light or fighters guild skills. DoTs can be wasted if the enemy moves out of an AoE, dies quickly, or purges the effect, spammables are not affected by any of these downsides. Also consider that DoT rotations can be more difficult to perform depending on skill durations, which leads to some downtime or overcasting, and you don’t get the full tooltip damage as a result. Spammable rotations also keep you on the front bar more, while DoT rotations force more GCD’s on the back bar where stats are typically lower (usually lose a good weapon trait, a 4 and 5pc set bonus, and a damage enchant proc or poison). On top of all this, direct damage is more effective for causing status effects, especially spammables like Force Pulse and Elemental Weapon. And DoTs, especially AoE DoTs are extremely expensive on PTS, which means building for more sustain and less damage to use them.
Put all these things together and the “25% higher” DoT damage actually ends up producing lower DPS than spammable rotations, by about 20%. If DoTs were readjusted to 1.65X a spammable then DoT rotations would do slightly more damage than spammable ones, by about 5%. Increase this ratio to 1.8X a spammable and we’d see DoT builds doing about 10-15% more than spammable builds. These sound a lot more balanced than the nonsense on PTS right now.Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 29, 2019 1:38AM2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.
Thanks for being so informative.
But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"
It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.
Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.
No, you have shown you don't get our arguments, why they are right, and now you want to stubbornly ignore our explanations. You even discarded them with a lol.
We can end this discussion peacefully. But know this: you are objectively wrong.
Aaand that would be it for me. Case settled, if you wish.
Just noticed something. "Our."
It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident.
Perhaps reread the discussion. Your input had zero to do with the discussion. I told you it didn't involve me but you insisted on directing it towards me.
Listen, it's no "our." No "we." Just YOU. What you desire to discuss has no value to me. Your conversation has been rejected. Sorry. Talk about something other than me.
For example:
Ranged CC
- 28 meters was only an issue with master clench builds.
- Lowering the damage on knockbacks to devalue them as spammable's wouldve solved the problem.
- Draining shot has no knock back. Why are the knock back nerfs still applied.
See? Told you you don't get it. You don't even get that I'm not alone in explaining it to you.
Ah, whatever. Waste of time, you are.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭
Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.
An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.
Reason for cloak in first place is that because nightblades are "squishy". Today, nightblades are tank AF. Though I don't mind the uptime on claok, but can we please remove the garnted crit and stun? It was first a defensive skill, then utility, and now is both utility, defense, and offense on 1 skill.0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
I choose my battles. And you are a lost cause since don't want to understand. I will leave it at that. Goodbye.
Understand =/= agree
Btw it was over a long time ago. Glad you finally noticed.
Now we have... disengagement!Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I've never had a problem killing someone who cloaks period
Well that might have a lot to do with the class and build you play. Some do much better against cloak than others. I think it would be much better for both the NBs and their opponents if cloak worked more consistently.Royalthought wrote: »@Royalthought
Well, actually Cloak is more like a combination of Shields and Streak as it is both a mitigation tool and a gap opener / disengagement tool. That's also what makes it so tricky to balance. It's invisibility / disengagement part definitely needs the streak treatment. However, it's mitigation part CANNOT suffer the streak treatment as it would break magblades.
ZOS really needs to disentangle these 2 effects. 1) Make invis and 2) Absorb single target direct damage (& suppress DoTs). Anything else inevitably leads to balance issues.
I dont want to further derail the thread to be dominating by one discusion.
So to quickly respond. This is incorrect.
Streak and dodgeroll offer mobility. Cloak and shield do not. Neither cloak nor shield will remove you from areas of harm. They'll only mitigate damage.
A sorc without streak and a nightblade without mobility are both, generally speaking, easy kills.
Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again is like saying streak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use for example a gap closer to prevent the sorc from getting away. In many ways cloak is a far more powerful disengagement tool than streak b/c it has less counters that are readily available on viable all-rounder builds.
There is a reason why camouflage (pseudo-invisibility) developed in nature and it is not b/c it makes it user more resistant to force effects (damage).
Your rewording what you quoted to suit your argument.
What I said was cloak and shield have no mobility.
Mobility is not a misspelling of disengagement.
"Saying cloak is not a disengagement tool b/c you can use certain skills to attack the NB again"
These are your words. You created this and then responded to it. This is between you and you. Leave me out of it
lol
You claimed that Cloak is not a combination of Shields and Streak but rather a only Shield-like ability b/c it offers no mobility.
However, the value of mobility is that it allows you to potentially disengage from a fight. It is therefore a disengagement tool. Cloak does the same. Whether it offers mobility or some other mechanism to disengage from a fight is irrelevant for this comparison. All that matter is, that both abilities provide a means to get out and/or away from a fight. As such both abilities are similar. And as a result Cloak is similar to Streak and b/c it also offers mitigation it is also similar to Shields. Ergo, Cloak is like a combination of Shield and Steak.
Didn't know I had to explain such simple truths to you. Sorry, my bad.
You're mistaking your opinion for a fact. Cloak is a mitigation tool. Just as shield is.
Streak and dodgeroll are mobility tools. You actually move from the area of effect.
Disengagement is an end result. Not an ability.
Test and see. Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No.
Hit an enemy with turn evil while they're out of stam, then walk away. Since it allowed you to "disengage" should turn evil have a fatigue? No.
This dead horse argument is silly. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Eso forums.
Here we go again.
You: "Cast cloak. Have an enemy cast an aoe or detect potion. Are you disengaged? No."
To which I say: "Cast Streak. Have an enemy cast a gap closer. Are you disengaged? No."
The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool. Using disengagement tools does not guarentee disengagement. There are counters to these abilities - as there should be. Streak can be countered by Gap Closers, Sprint, single target damage and DoTs. Cloak can be countered by AoEs and stuff like Detection Pots, Mage Light, etc.
Maybe this helps you to understand: Nobody is using a Invisibility Potion primarily to mitigate damage. People use it to get away from the fight. Invisibility is a disengagement tool! The fact that Cloak also makes you invulnerable to several type of damage does not change this fact. It rather makes Cloak a combination of a mitigation tool (like shields) and a disengagement tool (like streak).
You really have a distorted perception of reality! Cloak is a mitigation tool, but dodge roll is a mobility tool? Lol!
Dodgeroll is primarily a mitigation tool. A good indicator for this is that it mitigates 100% of the damage types it is meant to mitigate and the fact that people only it when they are taking damage. While the former is also true for cloak, the latter is not. Cloak is also used to not be engaged by enemies. In addition, dodging does not get you away from the enemy. It neither opens a meaningful gap nor does it make you invisible and thus untargetable. That's why dodgerollers use speed and/or Streak or Cloak to get away from a fight. In contrast to that they use dodge roll to roll "circles" around you ... that's not something you do when you want to get away from a fight.
Stop putting a slant on these abilites to fit your own goals.
"The fact that you haven't disengaged doesn't mean the ability you used is not a disengagement tool."
^Read your own quote.
Knockbacks can be used as disengagement tools. Living dark can be used as a disengagement tool. Petrify can be used as a disengagement tool.
None of them have fatigue. You know which abilities do have fatigue? The ones that offer mobility.
Cloak offers no mobility. NONE. Youre going in circles repeatedly saying it can be used as a disengagement tool.......... For the 2nd time. Mobility is NOT a misspelling of disengagement.
Abilities that have MOBILITY get the Fatigue. Let that sink in. Not abilities that CAN be used to disengage as a result. This is getting old.
Those CCs don't have fatique, they have immunity. You're so off-course, man...
And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
Because immunity prevents them from being done in rapid succession. So you can't perma stun or root away from your enemy.
Yeah, lol indeed.
Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that.
You just don't get it.
Thanks for being so informative.
But when I say, "Nothing to do with anything that concerns me. You're on your own with that,"
It was my way of saying, nicely, you have a view point on something YOU want to focus on. Feel free to do so with out me.
Being insulting with "you don't get it," is a bit ironic. Let's move on peacefully. I'm not interested in "nerf this" discussions.
No, you have shown you don't get our arguments, why they are right, and now you want to stubbornly ignore our explanations. You even discarded them with a lol.
We can end this discussion peacefully. But know this: you are objectively wrong.
Aaand that would be it for me. Case settled, if you wish.
Just noticed something. "Our."
It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident.
Perhaps reread the discussion. Your input had zero to do with the discussion. I told you it didn't involve me but you insisted on directing it towards me.
Listen, it's no "our." No "we." Just YOU. What you desire to discuss has no value to me. Your conversation has been rejected. Sorry. Talk about something other than me.
For example:
Ranged CC
- 28 meters was only an issue with master clench builds.
- Lowering the damage on knockbacks to devalue them as spammable's wouldve solved the problem.
- Draining shot has no knock back. Why are the knock back nerfs still applied.
See? Told you you don't get it. You don't even get that I'm not alone in explaining it to you.
Ah, whatever. Waste of time, you are.
"It's kinda like when players are bad. No matter how awful they are, as long as they're in a group they feel confident."0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.
Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »
"highest skill cap execute" (Not even an execute skill btw, even if you are using it to finish people off.)
"Lemme get all muh "small scaler" bois to hit on this one random guy running away and hope for him to die randomly to unavoidable damage unless he wants to burn all his mag on purge."
Yeah, I'm out.
I use POL for two things. To make it easier to identify targets when fighting outnumbered and as an execute to finish my targets off. You can argue semantics if you like since you don't have any other valid argument but the reality is most stamplars play it that way.
When I say highest skill cap I say that in comparison to the following executes none of which require any condition other than the target being in execute range. Even easier in the case of mag toons is the range which reduces your exposure for incoming damage versus melee
Mag
Mages Wrath 28m range with splash damage
Jesus Beam 28m range with very high damage
Impale 25m range
Stam
Killers Blade
Whirlwind
Executioner
In order for me to get my POL to pop for high damage i need to be in melee range and do a full rotation just to make it do anywhere close to the damage these other executes are capable of (save maybe for whirling blades). Also because of the time component there is a chance the target can LOS, purge or get healed.
So please before you spout off again try playing the class in a solo / small scale environment. If you are a zergling or just a trashcan at the game move along. Your opinions are worthless.
Power of the light and purifying light are 28m with 6 secs timer. You don't need to be melee to fill up the dmg, that is up to you and how you play. POL/PL are more of a burst skills than of excaute, so no comapeison in between. You can do more than 7k on targets that have 40%+ HP where as if you hit someone with any edcaute you mentioned except for whiling, you probably on getting 1-3k dmg even with crit. You can use POL/PL along with other exctuion skills. You need more skill in using excute abilities than using POL/PL as most people start healing, dodge rolling, cloak, LOS when they reach excaution phase as supposed to putting power of light and doing regular rotation that is mostly consist of spamming japs and pop 7k dmg then use excaution. POL is compariable to curse, relentless proc, skeletons, inhale, subtrean skills. Still it does more dmg that most of the skills mention with little skill play as allies than help you pump the dmg as well. You play solo and that is up to use. I can argue that sorc combo in solo is hard as well, but that is why most people don't people solo, because it's hard to put up a proper combo when you fight 4+ player on all classes and not templar exclusive.1 -
SipofMaim✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »
Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.
An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.
Reason for cloak in first place is that because nightblades are "squishy". Today, nightblades are tank AF. Though I don't mind the uptime on claok, but can we please remove the garnted crit and stun? It was first a defensive skill, then utility, and now is both utility, defense, and offense on 1 skill.
The reason for cloak in the first place is that nightblades are assassins.
It's one of the last holdout class-defining skills and they have already given one of the morphs to tanks, having wrecked the skills that made saptanks awesome in the first place, for the love of GOD leave cloak alone. It's not OP, merely still useful, and it should stay that way.
Signed, DK main who likes NBs to be NBs2 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.
Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.
Your question is should gap closers have fatigue, since dodgeroll and streak do?
You could make an argument to support that.
I personally do not campaign for nerfs so I wouldn't request it. But I can see the logic behind gap closers having it.
As for abilities like shade, if you simply cast shade repeatedly, you won't move. So fatigue there would be illogical. Having to first place and then move away in order for it to function gives it a built in cool down.
Lastly major expedition. Casting it doesn't move you. Its simply a buff.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.
Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.
Your question is should gap closers have fatigue, since dodgeroll and streak do?
You could make an argument to support that.
I personally do not campaign for nerfs so I wouldn't request it. But I can see the logic behind gap closers having it.
As for abilities like shade, if you simply cast shade repeatedly, you won't move. So fatigue there would be illogical. Having to first place and then move away in order for it to function gives it a built in cool down.
Lastly major expedition. Casting it doesn't move you. Its simply a buff.
You are correct, major expedition does not move, but it make move faster/mobile, which is the opposite of immoblization that you trying to move but you can't, you are force to stay still.
Any skill or passisve than increase you movement speed or make immunity to snares and immoblization is a mobilty skill.0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.
Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.
Your question is should gap closers have fatigue, since dodgeroll and streak do?
You could make an argument to support that.
I personally do not campaign for nerfs so I wouldn't request it. But I can see the logic behind gap closers having it.
As for abilities like shade, if you simply cast shade repeatedly, you won't move. So fatigue there would be illogical. Having to first place and then move away in order for it to function gives it a built in cool down.
Lastly major expedition. Casting it doesn't move you. Its simply a buff.
You are correct, major expedition does not move, but it make move faster/mobile, which is the opposite of immoblization that you trying to move but you can't, you are force to stay still.
Any skill or passisve than increase you movement speed or make immunity to snares and immoblization is a mobilty skill.
We can refer to them as "mobility skills" because they pertain to it. Either enhancing or enabling it when snares and immobilizations prevent it.
Is that in relation to your original question?0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »And that has what to do with Mobility? Absolutely nothing. The examples were "off course" for a reason.
The point is simple. Dodgeroll and streak were given fatigue because they move the player from 1 point to another. They could be done in rapid succession.
None of the abilities in any of the examples given accomplish that. Mobility. The discussion of mobility. Was already muddied with 1 who wanted to make it about disengagement. Are we really throwing immunity in now? Lol
You are delusional. Have you even played back in the days when Dodgeroll had no fatigue? Those guys were NOT spamming dodgeroll 24/7 to get away from the fight. They WERE spamming it to evade (read: mitigate) incoming damage. If they were running, they would NOT have rolled circles around you but would have tried to get away from the fight. Oh and btw, when they WERE trying to get away from the fight they used Cloak and Sprint.
But keep denying all the emperical facts and reasoning. Keep living in your little bubble of ignorance. While ignorance might be bliss, it does not change facts and the rest of us will just keep on living with the facts in the real world.
PS: if you think fatigue is a property of mobility, then where is the fatigue on Sprint or on Speed Buffs? Guess they are also not "Mobility" b/c they don't have fatigue. Really sound logic you got there!
Nothing you've said changes the point. Literally nothing. Your switching from disengagement to more nonsense. The reason you keep attacking my character with insults like delusional, living in a bubble, is because your argument failed and you need to rely on childish antics.
For the last time MOBILITY. It does NOT matter what you use the ability to accomplish but what the ability does itself.
**Standing still you can activate every ability we've mentioned and you will still be standing in the same spot. Only 2 abilities we've discussed (streak and dodgeroll) will actually move your character from 1 point to another. It's up to you to grasp why they are the only ones with fatigue. ZoS gets it. You haven't figured that out.**
Considering you point of view of how mobility works, would you not agree that all gap closers are mobility skill? Crit rush take from your current location to you target, from point A to point B. Tapling charge ambush leap, chains all in your point of view are moblity skills, so fatigue? Other skills like warden nature's grasp, and nightblades shadow image are also considered mobility skills in your point of view. All skills mention above while mostly need targets to use can take you from point A to point B.
Now if you consider other definetions of moblity like the ability to move without difficulty or free movement that all used in the game, because you have a skill that is literally says immoblization which is the opposite of what I said. Being mobile or using a mobility skill makes movimg from point A to point B easy as supposed to doing the moving itself like what streak does. skills that give you minor, major expedition, like rapid manuver or skills that give you snare and immoblization immunity like shuffle are considered mobility skills, because the help not being immobilized when tring to move.
Your question is should gap closers have fatigue, since dodgeroll and streak do?
You could make an argument to support that.
I personally do not campaign for nerfs so I wouldn't request it. But I can see the logic behind gap closers having it.
As for abilities like shade, if you simply cast shade repeatedly, you won't move. So fatigue there would be illogical. Having to first place and then move away in order for it to function gives it a built in cool down.
Lastly major expedition. Casting it doesn't move you. Its simply a buff.
You are correct, major expedition does not move, but it make move faster/mobile, which is the opposite of immoblization that you trying to move but you can't, you are force to stay still.
Any skill or passisve than increase you movement speed or make immunity to snares and immoblization is a mobilty skill.
We can refer to them as "mobility skills" because they pertain to it. Either enhancing or enabling it when snares and immobilizations prevent it.
Is that in relation to your original question?
Yes0