PTS Dragonhold Feedback Notes for Class Rep Meeting

Gnortranermara

Amazing work, class reps. You guys have consistently succeeded in providing high-value feedback to the devs. I hope they've got the good sense to listen. Everything there looks great. A few comments:

Glory wrote: »

Reducing the duration or damage of Colossus ultimate probably will not deter raid teams wanting to stack their entire roster with Stamina Necromancers. Decently-coordinated groups will have no trouble rotating Colossus ultimates and the disparity between Necromancer and the other classes will still be present. Perhaps a cooldown to Major Vulnerability like Off-Balance immunity would be more of an appropriate change than damage reduction or duration in this case as this would still require Necromancers to be brought to raids but pointless to stack 8-9 of them.

There is a simple solution to this problem: buff Master Architect and War Machine so that non-Necro's have a comparable group utility buff they can provide. Major Slayer is weaker than Major Vuln, but has a longer duration and better uptime, so all they really need to do is increase the targets affected (maybe to 6) so that classes with low-cost ulti's (Templars, Wardens, and Nightblades) can provide a comparable group DPS buff. As long as the end result is similar, having an alternative way to buff the group DPS will make Necro's less mandatory than they are now.

Glory wrote: »

Perhaps consider adding the stun back to Death Stroke to off-set the cast time and reward Nightblades for landing their skills

Immobilize would be better, since it allows the victim more defensive options (roll or heal) other than simply breaking free. It'll still force a resource drain of one kind or another, but it won't be a total death sentence for mag classes who might lack the stamina to break free.

DoonerSeraph

NBrookus wrote: »

Very nice summary!

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

This is the only item I disagree with. There is a non-class purge available for support toons in PVE and PVP. If dots are reduced from what they are on live, then purging is less mandatory. Purge is only a hot button issue because of how ridiculously OP dots like soul trap are right now.

Giving everything to every class AND maintaining (if not strengthening!) class identity are at odds with each other.

Agreed, some work can be done in the alliance purge (or another way of making dots a little less impactful on stam characters than can't readily purge) can go a long way.

enzoisadog

The problem is that ZOS doesn't know how to fix stuff, if a skill or a set is good they will nerf to the point where its useless.

Overload heavy attack too strong? Aight let's make it useless.

Heatnix90

Major_Lag wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Consider looking at ways of incentivizing faction loyalty instead of limiting our ability to swap to underdog factions when one faction completely controls/dominates the map.

LOL

Do you honestly believe that the trolls will give even a single damn about whatever faction loyalty incentives ZOS can possibly add?

Trolls are trolling purely for the sake of trolling, and no amount of incentives is going to change that. Ever.

I don't recall saying that the incentives are for the faction trolls. [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Major_Lag

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Very nice summary!

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

This is the only item I disagree with. There is a non-class purge available for support toons in PVE and PVP. If dots are reduced from what they are on live, then purging is less mandatory. Purge is only a hot button issue because of how ridiculously OP dots like soul trap are right now.

Giving everything to every class AND maintaining (if not strengthening!) class identity are at odds with each other.

Agreed, some work can be done in the alliance purge (or another way of making dots a little less impactful on stam characters than can't readily purge) can go a long way.

IMO the real problem with the Alliance War Purge is that it's a group ability, and its very steep cost reflects that fact.

Every class should have class access to a cheaper but "selfish" class purge.

Nevasca

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

I disagree on that one. Not all classes need purge, it should be a classic specific thing. Everything else is Yes yes yes !

LinearParadox

So shines a ray of hope. Now we just need the devs to listen.

Just wanna say that I agree with, surprisingly, everything you mentioned there. Even the stuff about NBs (despite my dislike of their gank-burst playstyle removing agency from players and pushing toward a tank meta to survive their burst)

There's just ooonnneee thing I'd argue; I don't think other classes need a purge.
I know that might sound extreme, but just hear me out before people try to lynch me.
Yes, it would balance playstyles and remove some frustration in certain situations, but it'd also add more homogeneity and I don't think that's a good thing.

Necro and Warden already get purges.
I don't care for Warden's since I think they already have enough in their toolkit, even though their purge is periodic and not as potent.
Necro's was at least implemented in a unique way that both fit thematically and made you think about when to purge (if it was worth the cost while under attack)
But purges being easily accessible and cheap to the Templar has always been a Class Identity thing IMO. Yes it's strong, yes other classes don't have it, but that's kind of the point.

And I'm not biased toward Templars, I don't main them, etc. A purge would be amazing on my StamDK Tank or my StamSorc, but it would feel a bit like giving NB cloak to another class, or DK's wings, etc. These are class-defining abilities and/or things that give classes identity based on their ease of access relative to others.
They shouldn't completely hard-counter or shut down a playstyle (DK's wing change, for example) but if they do soft-counter something a bit I think that's fine.
You should feel a little trepidation engaging a Templar as a DoT-based DK, or engaging a DK at range with a projectile-based spec. Engaging a NB without a form of stealth detection should be rough for you. Etc.

Please consider that before moving forward with adding any more purges to the game (though maybe a Stam morph for the Alliance War skill would help even things out. It'd still be prohibitively expensive to spam in most cases, but it'd give all classes and specs limited access to purge without watering down more class identity)

And of course, thank you to all the Class Reps that're listening, reading, discussing, and putting in the effort here to give us some much needed recognition and transparency.

xaraan

Thanks for the write up Glory. Sounds like the reps are giving decent feedback, hopefully the devs listen.

AuraoftheAzureSea

I'm a little disappointed that the only real Nightblade oriented comments here are related to PvP. A synergy for NBs would be really nice. I main nightblades and until the state of nb dps gets fixed for PvE, I will be sticking with my healer and my tank. The dps I run are sorcerer (both mag/stam) and mag warden and mag templar. I am surprised that the only Bound Armaments feedback here is again PvP related. My bigger issue with it has more to do with it feeling too much like my ditched mag/stamblades Grim Focus procs. And I can't help but continue to feel like I made the right decision dropping my nightblades for wardens and sorcs, especially seeing as warden has minor berserk and major fracture - both of which were taken away from my nightblades, and sorc is now getting a much better version of the also nerfed Grim Focus (because PvE did not need that damage mitigation or heal! Thanks PvP AGAIN!). I find it really weird that the "nightblade" assassin quintessential expected DPS class has nothing to offer PvE groups outside of harder dynamic rotations and no synergies to go along with Lokk, Yolna, Alkosh, WM, etc.

Thanks for bringing up all of these issues, especially related to DoTs, but please don't forget us PvE-ers when you are talking about class specific issues.

Red_Feather

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

I disagree on that one. Not all classes need purge, it should be a classic specific thing. Everything else is Yes yes yes !

Maybe negative effects can remain strong if removing them, or instead of removing using them, is possible. Feels like the negative effects are being kept weaker because half the classes can't do much against stacked negative effects. I think it would be cool if one class at least got the option to use negative effect stacks put on themselves in an offensive way. To flip the tables and make people think twice about stacking stuff.

Jodynn

Seeing the mention about classes like Dragonknight getting something more than generic DoTs put a big smile on my face

also this

Consider giving Dragonknights/Nightblades at least one more synergy as DK/NB healers only have one 99.9% of the time: Orbs. Every other class has another synergy one way or another

Eruption costs way too much to not have a utility ( movement speed isn't really reliable since the aoe is so small and is just silly for PvE endgame as we have much better alternatives ( ice staff and talons ) ), might be good to tack a synergy as it has a healing morph as well, you could have that be something for tanks, and the damage morph could be something I could synergize myself like boneyard, would add much flavor needed to eruption, the animation is also meh but hey... I don't want to ask for too much.

Thank you for this communication, it means a lot and makes me feel much better.

Darsaga

Only things I want additional emphasis on:

1. Major Protection: A fair percent to not eliminate the buff would be 15%.

2. Minor Protection: Reduce to 5%. Most people using this buff solely will not notice the 3% decrease. Additionally it would then have a grand total of 20% mitigation when paired with major, which is what is plaguing and terribly slowing the flow of PvP combat.

The combination of these two buffs plus sets that just give flat additional mitigation or absolutely ludicrous. PvE doesn’t need it and neither does PvP.

3. Please don’t mess with NBs they are finally performing like most normal classes. Now you death stroke, fear, bow, vs fear, death stroke, bow. The results are the same. A good player it will be hard to land on a bad player dies. You bring the stun back it’s just something free for no reason, and from stealth cause very delayed or even perma CC scenarios.

Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.

There are more things but I’m typing on my tablet and cant be bothered. Those are my additional concerns.
Thank you so much for the time and effort you all put into this.

iris56

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Was the significant reduction in DPS intended? Seems like most classes lost about 25% single target when solo, and changes to Major Vuln are about 6% additional reduction in optimized trial groups.

Are there any plans to compensate for this 31% by buffing something else? Or possibly adjust content and achievements to these new power levels (mainly looking at the 30 min timer for Sunspire, but people also have concerns about Eternal Servants and other DPS checks).

I would also like to know the answers to this as well. DPS has taken a big hit and while that's not a huge problem for most of the vet content, but the newer trials have dps checks to match the higher numbers. Is there a plan to adjust this content? I don't even know if thats a good answer as people will feel cheated not to earn the "real" thing, but when combined with the constant swings in meta nerfs to dps are really harming trial community and a lot of progression groups are falling apart.

Major_Lag

Heatnix90 wrote: »

I don't recall saying that the incentives are for the faction trolls. Maybe you should read before posting dribble.

An unlocked campaign is an open invitation to all kinds of trolls and "path of least resistance"/"switch to the winning side and paint the map" losers.
Faction lock has filtered out all but the most dedicated ones.

Players who are frequently flipping to look for better fights also won't care about any faction loyalty rewards for that matter - just as they never gave a single damn about the Alliance War objectives.

However, full duration faction lock is far from healthy for the campaigns
It worked kinda OK for the first 1 or 2 campaigns, but then the faction stack guilds figured out how to exploit it to their advantage.

IMO a much better way would be to remove faction lock in its current form, but put a cooldown on how often a player can faction swap within a single campaign.
A few hours (6?) would be a reasonable amount for such a cooldown.

ZeroXFF

PotL/Purifying Light shouldn’t crit AND get amps from allies.

Oh, they improved the most difficult to use delayed burst skill in the game, and even class reps are shouting "nerf!"

Either way, if it doesn't benefit from other people's damage, the cap should be removed too.

susmitds

ZeroXFF wrote: »

PotL/Purifying Light shouldn’t crit AND get amps from allies.

Oh, they improved the most difficult to use delayed burst skill in the game, and even class reps are shouting "nerf!"

Either way, if it doesn't benefit from other people's damage, the cap should be removed too.

Difficult to use? Fills up automatically with damage in 6 secs, only one that allies can also activate and as of PTS, deals more than Assassin's Will. Can't be dodged, no travel time, breaks Cloak, can't be LoSed.

Relentless Focus/Merciless Resolve users cries in background. Boom baby.

SeaUnicorn

Major_Lag wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

I don't recall saying that the incentives are for the faction trolls. Maybe you should read before posting dribble.

An unlocked campaign is an open invitation to all kinds of trolls and "path of least resistance"/"switch to the winning side and paint the map" losers.
Faction lock has filtered out all but the most dedicated ones.

Players who are frequently flipping to look for better fights also won't care about any faction loyalty rewards for that matter - just as they never gave a single damn about the Alliance War objectives.

However, full duration faction lock is far from healthy for the campaigns
It worked kinda OK for the first 1 or 2 campaigns, but then the faction stack guilds figured out how to exploit it to their advantage.

IMO a much better way would be to remove faction lock in its current form, but put a cooldown on how often a player can faction swap within a single campaign.
A few hours (6?) would be a reasonable amount for such a cooldown.

If you don't like it - don't play that campagin. No reason to be toxic about it. For me faction lock was an obstacle, because I have even number of AD and EP toons and I have both AD and EP friends to pvp with.

Major_Lag

slofwnd wrote: »

If you don't like it - don't play that campagin.

You do realize that whatever CP campaign is listed first will have the largest pop, and any other campaigns will be mostly empty?

No-CP is an exception because many people prefer no-CP and there's only 1 option for it.

Canned_Apples

Cutting Dive delay needs to be removed to make it a viable spammable.

D-Swing change is great.

Jodynn

Most people who don't like faction lock they switch to the losing side.

Jodynn

I want to thank all the class reps for all their work, it is much appreciated and if you need anything magDK related let me know, whether it's parse numbers or whatever I would love to provide all I can for a better ESO.

gepe87

As sorcerer, both Tank, DD and Healer here my opinion about sorcerer:

Bound Aegis could be rework to be Sorcerer own purge and tuned down %Magicka given and Minor Ward/Resolve removed.

Another option is Encase: Restraining Prision morph do damage and immobilize (tank morph) and Shattering gives a small aoe heal with minor vitality and purge (utility to sorc healers, like templars ritual).

Defensive rune has potential,but many people wouldnt accept a CC removal to gain purge (few ppl still use it)

Skoomah

No offense to the class rep program but it’s not working. The game continually and gradually gets worse and worse to play. Let’s assume for a minute that every one of their suggestions and feedback over be years have been good ones. ZOS either doesn’t listen or does listen and the game gets worse.

Trancestor

IDK who says the new magden stun is good but they are wrong.

Rianai

Darsaga wrote: »

Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.

An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.

SirAndy

Not a single word about how horrible AOE DOT based Mag Pet Sorcs are performing on PTS right now ...


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483532/pet-sorcs-got-gutted/p1

Xvorg

Rianai wrote: »

Darsaga wrote: »

Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.

An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.

I'm up for cloak cost increase if ZoS decides to create a potion that prevents sorcs from streaking

SeaUnicorn

Glory wrote: »

[*] Class DoTs could have a different, higher power budget compared to weapon/non-class DoTs which would alleviate the pain point of DoT-centric classes such as Dragonknights for Dragonhold.

Great idea. Generic skill line DOTs are a great vessel for utility since they are available to all classes and hence do not create class disbalance.
For example major sorcery on degeneration was great (looks at prices of corn flower).
Trap beast and scalding rune are equivalents and could both be a source of minor force.
Weapon ground dots are good tools to proc enchants.

Please also consider bringing up general sustain nerf in a form of increase resource pricing of DOTs. And how player base truly wholeheartedly hates heavy attacks.

Tommy_The_Gun

Great post and thanks for the info. I agree with everything, except for this:

Glory wrote: »

Hello all,[*] New 30 Day Campaign (no faction) lock is AWESOME (recommend unhoming people
and also put it at the top for true test)

The true test would be to simply make 4 categories, with one campaign inside:
- Alliance locked with CP
- Alliance locked without CP
- Alliance unlocked with CP
- Below level 50

If indeed the one that is most often picked is the "top" one from the list, then make a rotation, that switches the list every 30 days, or at least put "Below level 50" on top of the list.

Edit:
What I mean is: If you put Alliance unlocked campaign on top of the list straight away, you would not know if it is popular because people like team-switching or because... it is on top of the list. That is why I think it is better to put it where the current 7 day campaign is. If it will be the most popular, despite not being on the top of the list - then you will know for sure that majority of PvP-ers prefer team-hopping.

Darsaga

Rianai wrote: »

Darsaga wrote: »

Also if you do start bringing power back to NBs the real problem needs to be fixed and that is cloaks uptime. It should be an exponential cost like dodge roll or streak. Magblades if used properly have the mag pool to sustain it, and Stam blades cant abuse it. All the old things could be given back as far as I’m concerned as long as the fight can’t be reset every 6 seconds.

An exponential cost increase on cloak would punish magblade harder than stamblade. The superior mobility of the latter and the ability to alternate between cloak and dodge reduces the need to actually spam that skill.

I don’t want to open a separate discussion so I will only reply this chat once.

The scenario it becomes a problem is when it is spamed. It is already used how you mentioned and isn’t a problem, but if done incorrectly before the fatigue it should cost you something. It’s a little too dummy proof for the power it provides, which is resetting the fight. This goes for both mag and stam. Hurt magblades more? I can’t agree. It would be no different than a Sorcs streaking themself out of mag. They use dark deal and lose their stam to get back the mag. The NB would just wait for the fatigue to run out in stealth with is passive recovery and no stamina loss.