Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

With changes to entropy, major sorcery is becoming a more viable pain point for Templars.

There are plenty of changes we want for Templars. Sadly, they won't happen because DK, Sorcer and NB mains are more prevalent in forums and cry bloody murder at the sight of "Please extend a courtesy to Templars".

ZOS listens to who *** the loudest and longest...and we just dont have the numbers.

Masel wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

I only have three comments to make here.

Before I begin, please push ZOS hard on balancing PVE and PVP through Battle Spirit. It will make balancing 10x easier in the future.

Glory wrote: »

• DoT change to 1.25x too much (1.8x?)

DoT's are fine as-is. The problem players are experiencing is the ability for like DoT's to stack. Players are tired of getting nuked by four+ Entropies dealing 12K each.
Suggestion: Make DoT's (In PVP - through Battle Spirit) diminishing. If Two players apply the same DoT on one enemy player, the result of damage of each Entropy should be reduced by 50% in order to equate to 100% of the original damage, as if applied by only one player rather than two.

Glory wrote: »

Hello all,

• PotL/Purifying Light shouldn’t crit AND get amps from allies.

Really...? This is absurd. PotL should absolutely Crit! Stamplar identity has no real burst ability. Period. Also, we are lacking an execute unless looking to outside skill lines. There are so many instances that Stamina Templars will literally beat on other players expecting their PotL to fill and explode, only to see the enemy health bar NOT MOVE because of the HA Meta ZOS has promoted for so long. With the nerf to DoTs, this Meta will come back and be worse than before.
Suggestion: Make PotL critable, but reduce the ability (IN PVP) to only be filled by caster.

I am sincerely appalled at the lack of discussion on Stamina Templars other than a nerf idea. Stop requesting nerfs to this class. In all honesty, only thing Stamina Templars need is:

• Better Mobility - this can be achieved by gaining some form of expedition or escape tool, Stamina morph of Focused Charge.
• Better synergy for healing with Stamina. Major Mending was taken away and given to Wardens in Morrowind.
• Better form of proactive defense - Major Protection was taken away from Crescent Sweep.

Glory wrote: »

• Templar, Warden and Necromancer have a class purge. Suggestion that Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Nightblades also get class purges.

No! No, no, no and more no. Expecting more of a Class Identity restoration from ZOS and getting this would just further diminish the Class system. Nightblades can suppress DoTs and negative effects in Cloak. Sorcerers have shields - work around that. Dragonknights need an ability to absorb incoming damage and channel it into outgoing damage or healing. Purge is accessible to ALL classes via the Alliance War skill line.

@CAB_Life
@cicisch
@Glory
@Nefas
@RebornZombie
@Alcast
@FeaR Turbo
@GandTheImpaler
@Masel
@Quantum_V

The AND was in caps for a reason, and meant that PotL shouldnt do both things simultaneously, which is what you said in your last sentence.

The purge thing is basically a result of the DoT-prevalence in PvP, and with a reduction in DoT-damage, that shouldnt really be necessary. I myself disagree with that point because mechanics like purges are part of class identity, so i dont think its good, but well, we have had many players tell us that so it is a pain point

And i'd disagree that dots are fine as is on PTS. In PvE, they arent even worth using over direct damage attacks really... and an attack that takes 10 seconds to do its damage should do more damage than one that does it instantly, at least i think that's a reasonable statement to make.

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

DoTs are not fine either on Live or Pts, but swing too damn hard.

Anywhere between 1.65x and 1.8x will make it worth the skill, cost and the fact it takes a length of time to deal.

Darsaga wrote: »

@Jabbs_Giggity Do you not have access to ANY kind of PC? ESO can run on a potato, look up its requirements. If you strictly want to have access to the PTS it truly doesn’t matter the rig your using. Also all you have to do is plug in your controller select game pad mode and it looks just like console.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

DoTs are not fine either on Live or Pts, but swing too damn hard.

Anywhere between 1.65x and 1.8x will make it worth the skill, cost and the fact it takes a length of time to deal.

I think 1.65x or 1.8x is too much. It would mean 65% to 80% more damage per global cooldown invested. That is a huge difference.

In PvE Boss fights all that matters is DPS per GCD as bosses live long enough for DoTs to expire and usually don't cleanse. And 25% more as currently provided on PTS should be more than enough. The only reason you still use spammables in PVE is b/c DoTs from the same person don't stack. If they could, everybody would just be spamming DoTs as they provide 25% more DPS than a direct damage equivalent.

In PvP Heals and Shields are based on absolute values (unlike block and dodge and cloak) and are not calibrated for such damage levels. Sure you could increase Shields and Heals, but that would mean they become too strong against direct damage attacks.

The 1.25x DoT value on PTS right now is not "more than enough".

In many cases, DoTs are now useless. No point in running Rending Slashes or Poison Injection or Soul Trap right now at their current PTS values.

Beyond just naive damage calculations, the opportunity costs have to be considered.

1. You have to assume 100% uptime on any DoT to make the comparison.
2. If a DoT only has negligible value, it may be more beneficial to just slot a skill that grants some passive stat or buff (e.g., Inner Light, FG skills, etc.) and skip the DoT.
3. Many spammables have secondary effects beyond damage tooltip comparisons (the bleed on Cutting Dive, Empower on Wrecking Blow, Spell Orb on Elemental/Crushing Weapon, guaranteed Poisoned proc on Lethal Arrow, Minor Fracture on Focused Aim, etc.).
4. Fewer DoTs means a simpler rotation which generally means fewer bar-swaps and more time spent on the front bar. Generally the front bar has higher stat density (2 5-piece sets, Nirn/Precise/Sharp traits instead of Infused).
5. And finally, CP: if you just opt to skip DoTs altogether, you can load CP in Master-at-Arms and Physical Weapons/Staff Expert. After many many parses on PTS, most of my CP optimization leads to ... 0 points in Thaumaturge.

DoTs need to provide significantly more than 1.25x spammable damage in order to be useful. 10 minutes of parsing on the PTS will tell you that.

LiquidPony wrote: »

The 1.25x DoT value on PTS right now is not "more than enough".

In many cases, DoTs are now useless. No point in running Rending Slashes or Poison Injection or Soul Trap right now at their current PTS values.

Beyond just naive damage calculations, the opportunity costs have to be considered.

1. You have to assume 100% uptime on any DoT to make the comparison.
2. If a DoT only has negligible value, it may be more beneficial to just slot a skill that grants some passive stat or buff (e.g., Inner Light, FG skills, etc.) and skip the DoT.
3. Many spammables have secondary effects beyond damage tooltip comparisons (the bleed on Cutting Dive, Empower on Wrecking Blow, Spell Orb on Elemental/Crushing Weapon, guaranteed Poisoned proc on Lethal Arrow, Minor Fracture on Focused Aim, etc.).
4. Fewer DoTs means a simpler rotation which generally means fewer bar-swaps and more time spent on the front bar. Generally the front bar has higher stat density (2 5-piece sets, Nirn/Precise/Sharp traits instead of Infused).
5. And finally, CP: if you just opt to skip DoTs altogether, you can load CP in Master-at-Arms and Physical Weapons/Staff Expert. After many many parses on PTS, most of my CP optimization leads to ... 0 points in Thaumaturge.

DoTs need to provide significantly more than 1.25x spammable damage in order to be useful. 10 minutes of parsing on the PTS will tell you that.

1. The uptime should not really be factor, as the same is true for direct damage attacks: if did something else, you didn't do the direct damage attack. If you chose to use a spammable instead of a DoT, then that's your fault, not a balance issue. Same is true if you decide to go the other way around: if I choose to reapply a DoT too early then I wasted the damage from the (direct damage) attack I could have used instead.
2. I agree with you on this one. But the main issue here is that DoTs from the same player do not stack. But with a 25% higher damage you cannot have them stack. And the passive boost would have to be very strong. You still see Sorcs running curse despite it only being used every 6 to 12 seconds and only dealing midly more damage than a spammable.
3. Secondary effects can also be put on DoTs. And many already have secondary effects (see e.g.: Bane, Entropy, Soul Trap)
4. In PvE maybe, but that's part of the reason for the higher DPS. In PvP that's kinda doubtful. Also see Curse on Sorcs.
5. That would not amount to +25% damage though.

Galarthor wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

The 1.25x DoT value on PTS right now is not "more than enough".

In many cases, DoTs are now useless. No point in running Rending Slashes or Poison Injection or Soul Trap right now at their current PTS values.

Beyond just naive damage calculations, the opportunity costs have to be considered.

1. You have to assume 100% uptime on any DoT to make the comparison.
2. If a DoT only has negligible value, it may be more beneficial to just slot a skill that grants some passive stat or buff (e.g., Inner Light, FG skills, etc.) and skip the DoT.
3. Many spammables have secondary effects beyond damage tooltip comparisons (the bleed on Cutting Dive, Empower on Wrecking Blow, Spell Orb on Elemental/Crushing Weapon, guaranteed Poisoned proc on Lethal Arrow, Minor Fracture on Focused Aim, etc.).
4. Fewer DoTs means a simpler rotation which generally means fewer bar-swaps and more time spent on the front bar. Generally the front bar has higher stat density (2 5-piece sets, Nirn/Precise/Sharp traits instead of Infused).
5. And finally, CP: if you just opt to skip DoTs altogether, you can load CP in Master-at-Arms and Physical Weapons/Staff Expert. After many many parses on PTS, most of my CP optimization leads to ... 0 points in Thaumaturge.

DoTs need to provide significantly more than 1.25x spammable damage in order to be useful. 10 minutes of parsing on the PTS will tell you that.

1. The uptime should not really be factor, as the same is true for direct damage attacks: if did something else, you didn't do the direct damage attack. If you chose to use a spammable instead of a DoT, then that's your fault, not a balance issue. Same is true if you decide to go the other way around: if I choose to reapply a DoT too early then I wasted the damage from the (direct damage) attack I could have used instead.
2. I agree with you on this one. But the main issue here is that DoTs from the same player do not stack. But with a 25% higher damage you cannot have them stack. And the passive boost would have to be very strong. You still see Sorcs running curse despite it only being used every 6 to 12 seconds and only dealing midly more damage than a spammable.
3. Secondary effects can also be put on DoTs. And many already have secondary effects (see e.g.: Bane, Entropy, Soul Trap)
4. In PvE maybe, but that's part of the reason for the higher DPS. In PvP that's kinda doubtful. Also see Curse on Sorcs.
5. That would not amount to +25% damage though.

So to me the only real issue here is the non-stackability of the same DoT from the same player. While I don't think the problem is as severe as you do, given how sorcs still run Curse, I agree that I needs to be addressed. And I have to admit I did not take that properly into account.

Imo, the best solution here would be to use benchmark other than spammables. B/c spammables essentially stack and DoTs don't. So let's use something like CFrag and add 10%-25% on that. This would give us a solid standard and account for the non-stackability. Multiplier would be something like 1.45 to 1.7 of spammable, which is not too far off from what you were proposing.

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

If DoTs could stack do you understand just the ridiculous amount of damage you could cause my spamming ONE dot ability?

Also it's not simple comparison one to one, 10x spam doesn't necessarily mean that 9x spam and 1x dot will be more you can't say
10 x 1DD = 10
9 x 1DD + 1.25DoT = 10.25
This is very, very invalid.

It doesn't work like that, even with PERFECT uptimes.

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Also curse and crystal frags aren't dots....