Bound Armaments

Trian94 · September 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It does 80% damage of Relentless Focus and takes 4 stacks instead of 5 (80% again), so it is technically balanced. Also remember that the Old Snipe did same damage as Relentless Focus, still RF was considered the best burst skill.

Bound Armaments can not be buffed without straight up making it better than Relentless Focus.

That's true for the base value on a naked template. But, in a same build scenario, is it still 80%? I didn't have a chance to check myself, but I've read on other posts that it scales badly with weapon damage.

At base with only the skill slotted, nothing else invested it's
Relentless at 1.527 dmg

B.A. at 304 x 4 = 1.216 dmg

= 20,4% less dmg

Now build up the same way for testing purpouse: Briar, Veli, Way of Air, Warrior, Dubious, same CP (81 MaA, 49 mighty), Dark Elf, 5m 1h 1l, 3 wpn dmg glyphs, infused bow backbar wpn dmg, major brutality as buff. class, medium armor, 2h, bow, racial, fg and undaunted passives. DBoS, Trap, Momentum and the respective skill on frontbar.

NB has 33.122 stam and 3.723 wpn dmg unbuffed, ends in 6094 wpn dmg buffed
Sorc has 35.225 stam and 3.784 wpn dmg unbuffed, ends in 6180 wpn dmg buffed.

Relentless 26.296

B.A. 5196 x 4 = 20.784

=20,9% less dmg

So it stays around the same if you ignore that you've got 2.103 more stam + 86 weapon dmg on the sorc (which relates into roughly 286 more wpn dmg)...

In pve with the crit modifiers and the light attack weaves plus the 8% more damage that it gives it might play into balance with other skills but in pvp these stats mean next to nothing tbh. It should lose the passives if need be for more direct damage in order to make it balanced in both aspects of the game

Elwendryll · September 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Relentless at 1.527 dmg

B.A. at 304 x 4 = 1.216 dmg

= 20,4% less dmg

Relentless 26.296

B.A. 5196 x 4 = 20.784

=20,9% less dmg

So it stays around the same if you ignore that you've got 2.103 more stam + 86 weapon dmg on the sorc (which relates into roughly 286 more wpn dmg)...

Thanks a lot for testing

I'll still not use it in range. But I'll not ask for a damage buff, it's the same damage/stack.

Burtan · September 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

Okay kids, like OP that has no idea how much dmg spammables do or this guy:

Lord_Sando wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

The damage of the ability is same as sub assault and bigger than lets say haunting curse. I dont feel liek you are being fair comparing it to damage of spammable.

WRONG not even close to sub assault not even counting minor berserk.

and the few others circle jerking people here thinking you can put totally different builds on two classes and then duel to prove which ability hits hard or not...

^ This is how normal spammable ability looks on tooltip with normal (pve) build and how prime example of cast time 'spammable' looks

By OP words this ability does less damage than most spammables, most spammable minus the special cases with cast time will have +- same tooltip as silver shard.

^ This is how bound armaments tooltip looks next to sub assault. Exactly as said, nearly same. Unless you are stupid and think it should hit as hard as sub assault if your target has no Major Fracture too.

But wait I see more crying. Something about bad weapon scaling? Its like everyone forget this is PTS forum and they keep throwing out theories or listening to rumors instead of doing their own damn research.
Let me introduce you to this little something. Its not much, just 6.3k weapon damage:

I would ask you for further information on this and if these builds had the same stats, sets and such but if you are bashing people like this, your opinion is invalid. Thanks for stopping by.

Burtan · September 2019

Would like to say that I think Armaments should do more damage than sub assault simply because it requires more effort.

If this means Armaments must lose the 8% stam then so be it.

universal_wrath · September 2019

It is not a good idea to comape a spammable to proc. If you want to comapre it dizzy for example, you can land 3-4 dizzy before you land the proc, same goes for grim focus, you can do 4-5 surprise attack that deals over all 40k+ to 1 proc of grim focus that does 15k+. No compirason what so ever.

On the other hand, as of next patch, i think only 3 skills are considered proc which are DK whip (either morphs), grim focus (either morphs), and bound weapons. You might want to consider crysital fragments, but it is totally unprodictable as sometimes you get 5 procs back to back and other times you pray for 1 proc.

SodanTok · September 2019

@Burtan I am not idiot so yes those build are equal. CP is equal. Passives are equal except obviously class passives are different. You know whats even better? You can test it yourself

JobooAGS · September 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Snipe for example currently does the same damage as the bound armaments proc and can be spammed at range.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not spam snipe. Your actual DPS is going to be significantly lower than if you were weaving poison injection.

With that said, Bound Armaments is very nice. It could use some minor cosmetic improvements, but the basic ability setup is solid.

You prime Bound Armaments with your weave while you're using something else as spam, so in that sense, it's far better than an ability with a cast time.

You do realize in pve, using snipe is meta for bow/bow? weaving snipe is far more dps than weaving PI. Try it on a dummy and see what the dps difference is.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2019

Burtan wrote: »

Would like to say that I think Armaments should do more damage than sub assault simply because it requires more effort.

If this means Armaments must lose the 8% stam then so be it.

Further issue with that comparison is the same as with the Grim Focus comparison. How much time it needs to set up? What's the secondary effects? And especially, how easy is it to combo with it. etc.

If I can use a spam every GCD than I'm hard pressed to believe that B.A. should do roughly the same as one, alone for the fact that you can't fire it off every GCD. I mean, yes you can, but then your damage is abysmal.
Can I combo sub assault with Dizzy? Sure thing. Can I combo B.A. with Dizzy? At least not me.

But anyway, people will mention how overloaded it is. So something's gotta give in either direction.
Or, if if it where up to me, I'd leave it as is, delay the dmg a bit, give Grim Focus minor brutality back and unnerf Sub Assault.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 2019

My general impression is that it kinda... cheap trick on ZOS end. I mean this skills literally "borrows" mechanics from other class core identity skill - Nightblade, Grim Focus skill.

The only things that are different is basically the "skin" of the animation and you get 4 daggers hitting for less each vs one arrow. So this skill is technically more universal as it can also be used to provide sustained DPS vs Grim focus bow proc that can only provide burst dps.

btw. Can some one provide comparison of new Bound Armaments vs Grim Focus ? I mean I do think this the closest thing it can be compared to. How it looks like dmg wise vs cost ?

Burtan · September 2019

This is a comparison between Power Bash (one of the lower damage spammables) and Armaments on the same bar on a non cp build. Keep in mind that Power Bash requires no timing and can simply be spammed while Armaments requires timing with so little pay off. I would get more damage from using another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo than I would from firing armaments.

SodanTok · September 2019

Burtan wrote: »

This is a comparison between Power Bash (one of the lower damage spammables) and Armaments on the same bar on a non cp build. Keep in mind that Power Bash requires no timing and can simply be spammed while Armaments requires timing with so little pay off. I would get more damage from using another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo than I would from firing armaments.

Power Slam is not lower damage spammable. Its one of the strongest instant cast spammables dealing same damage as Cutting Dive and more than Venom Skull, Silver Shards, Crushing Weapon, Force Pulse (if you had matching stats), Lava Whip or even Surprise Attack. Literally everything that comes from your post is just.... not true

You have Armaments on your bar so you are already profiting from half the power of the skill you are complaining about. Every delayed attack in the game including all of the DoTs even pre nerf deal less damage over X time than spamming spammable for that duration.

Harrdarrzarr · September 2019

might be cool if it fires automatically when 4 light attacks have been done

Burtan · September 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

This is a comparison between Power Bash (one of the lower damage spammables) and Armaments on the same bar on a non cp build. Keep in mind that Power Bash requires no timing and can simply be spammed while Armaments requires timing with so little pay off. I would get more damage from using another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo than I would from firing armaments.

Power Slam is not lower damage spammable. Its one of the strongest instant cast spammables dealing same damage as Cutting Dive and more than Venom Skull, Silver Shards, Crushing Weapon, Force Pulse (if you had matching stats), Lava Whip or even Surprise Attack. Literally everything that comes from your post is just.... not true
You have Armaments on your bar so you are already profiting from half the power of the skill you are complaining about. Every delayed attack in the game including all of the DoTs even pre nerf deal less damage over X time than spamming spammable for that duration.

I didn't say it did less than those, but it does do less than the likes of dizzying swing and surprise attack on average among the most common PvP builds. This is beside the point anyways.

Why would I use the Armaments proc when I get more damage from not wasting a gcd and going for another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo?

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

btw. Can some one provide comparison of new Bound Armaments vs Grim Focus ? I mean I do think this the closest thing it can be compared to. How it looks like dmg wise vs cost ?

On same build (which favours Sorc by 2.1k stam and 90 wpn dmg) B.A. does 20,X% less damage than Relentless Focus. See one of my posts above itt.
B.a costs 1.950 stam, lasts 40s. HA count as 1 stack.
RF costs 2.065 stam, lasts 30s. HA count as 2 stacks.

Trian94 · September 2019

Alright. So i just tested every delayed dmg ability (blastbones, power of the light, grim focus, armaments, and sub assault

As you can see the only ones close to bound armaments are blastbones and sub assault, both of which provide better debuffs than the buffs armaments gives and are way easier to use and line up.

All these screens were taken while no cp were on, same gear (shackle, bs, truth), same race (orc), same mundus (warrior), each class' passives unlocked and with slotted skills being the respective skills, rally and dawnbreaker of smiting. Major brutality was the only buff so take into account that somec classes have berserk and also dont neglect the different passives the classes have.

Bound armaments is super weak compared to all the skills mentioned above. Also the fact that it takes a whole GCD to use makes it even harder to utilize and capitalize on. It needs a buff in damage even if that means taking out the % max stam or/and nerfing the light attack damage bonus so it's balanced in both pve and pvp.

Tyrobag · September 2019

It needs to summon bound weapons for you to use, instead of having floating daggers taped to your ears. I don't know how they reached the conclusion that this would be better than adding an ability we've been asking for since launch, when its the blatantly obvious thing to do. -_-

Thraben · September 2019

Trian94 wrote: »

Alright. So i just tested every delayed dmg ability (blastbones, power of the light, grim focus, armaments, and sub assault

Bound armaments is super weak compared to all the skills mentioned above. Also the fact that it takes a whole GCD to use makes it even harder to utilize and capitalize on. It needs a buff in damage even if that means taking out the % max stam or/and nerfing the light attack damage bonus so it's balanced in both pve and pvp.

Thanks for the good work!

I would gladly give up the skill's light attack bonus for more delayed burst. And, seeing how bad Dizzy is on the PTS, maybe even the max Stam passive, as we don't have too many skill options to actually use it.

Lord_Sando · September 2019

Trian94 wrote: »

Alright. So i just tested every delayed dmg ability (blastbones, power of the light, grim focus, armaments, and sub assault

As you can see the only ones close to bound armaments are blastbones and sub assault, both of which provide better debuffs than the buffs armaments gives and are way easier to use and line up.

All these screens were taken while no cp were on, same gear (shackle, bs, truth), same race (orc), same mundus (warrior), each class' passives unlocked and with slotted skills being the respective skills, rally and dawnbreaker of smiting. Major brutality was the only buff so take into account that somec classes have berserk and also dont neglect the different passives the classes have.

Bound armaments is super weak compared to all the skills mentioned above. Also the fact that it takes a whole GCD to use makes it even harder to utilize and capitalize on. It needs a buff in damage even if that means taking out the % max stam or/and nerfing the light attack damage bonus so it's balanced in both pve and pvp.

it should have the damage buffed and keep the 8% stam and 10% light attack damage. I want everyone to take a good look at stam sorc for two seconds look at the class as a whole. the one skill, this one skill that if it had damage could be very useful is the second offensive skill next to hurricane. the class has crit heals with crit surge but no access in the class to a crit buff. a healing buff locked behind a tanking skill that requires you to land it on the multiple targets for it to kinda work. no class spammable 70% of the passives don't help stam damage dealers. will having one useful class skill make it op.................. NO so just let it have the damage or give it better options.

Trian94 · September 2019

Lord_Sando wrote: »

Trian94 wrote: »

Alright. So i just tested every delayed dmg ability (blastbones, power of the light, grim focus, armaments, and sub assault

As you can see the only ones close to bound armaments are blastbones and sub assault, both of which provide better debuffs than the buffs armaments gives and are way easier to use and line up.

All these screens were taken while no cp were on, same gear (shackle, bs, truth), same race (orc), same mundus (warrior), each class' passives unlocked and with slotted skills being the respective skills, rally and dawnbreaker of smiting. Major brutality was the only buff so take into account that somec classes have berserk and also dont neglect the different passives the classes have.

Bound armaments is super weak compared to all the skills mentioned above. Also the fact that it takes a whole GCD to use makes it even harder to utilize and capitalize on. It needs a buff in damage even if that means taking out the % max stam or/and nerfing the light attack damage bonus so it's balanced in both pve and pvp.

it should have the damage buffed and keep the 8% stam and 10% light attack damage. I want everyone to take a good look at stam sorc for two seconds look at the class as a whole. the one skill, this one skill that if it had damage could be very useful is the second offensive skill next to hurricane. the class has crit heals with crit surge but no access in the class to a crit buff. a healing buff locked behind a tanking skill that requires you to land it on the multiple targets for it to kinda work. no class spammable 70% of the passives don't help stam damage dealers. will having one useful class skill make it op.................. NO so just let it have the damage or give it better options.

I have to agree with this. I was just mentioning a trade-off as a worst case scenario.

starkerealm · September 2019

Crixus8000 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

You prime Bound Armaments with your weave while you're using something else as spam, so in that sense, it's far better than an ability with a cast time.

Why even bother using bound armaments when I could just use my normal attack and deal more damage though lol ? The damage from bound armaments is weak.

Because your light attack is on a separate GCD from your active abilities. You light attack, hit BA's proc, light attack again, and then use another ability.

Just like every other weave.

starkerealm · September 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Snipe for example currently does the same damage as the bound armaments proc and can be spammed at range.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not spam snipe. Your actual DPS is going to be significantly lower than if you were weaving poison injection.

With that said, Bound Armaments is very nice. It could use some minor cosmetic improvements, but the basic ability setup is solid.

You prime Bound Armaments with your weave while you're using something else as spam, so in that sense, it's far better than an ability with a cast time.

You do realize in pve, using snipe is meta for bow/bow? weaving snipe is far more dps than weaving PI. Try it on a dummy and see what the dps difference is.

You do realize that "meta" isn't a seal of quality, and simply indicates that this is what a large chunk of the community are doing?

I also understand that spamming snipe, even in PvP, is rarely a good idea. It puts some nice debuffs on the target, but, unless you're trying to stay out of range from any other abilities (which does happen in Cyrodiil), you're better off tagging a target once with Snipe, applying Defile, and then pegging them with Poison Injection, and switching back to reapply Defile when Defile is wearing off.

Does this mean no one spams snipe? No, of course not. I've seen far too many snipe spammers over the years. But, unless you're deliberately staying out of the range of another player, this is a debuff tool, not spam.

katorga · September 2019

Bound armaments needs to have its damage buffed by about 15% (+/- 5%), and keep the light attack and stam bonus.

Here is why:

- A warden will be running a default 22% damage increase on sub assault for example, 6% increased damage from slotting assault, bird of prey and swarm, 8% minor vuln, 8% berserk compared to 5% increase damage on sorc.
- Sub assault gets another 8% damage from major fracture applied by the ability itself. Nothing on sorc.
- Sub Assault hits the target off the GCD allowing you to time and stack burst. This is why it is sooo good.
- Slotting sub assault gives 2% damage increase, 12% mag/stam regen, Ultimate return on cast, Stam return on cast compared to 2% weapon dmg, 8% stam increase, 10% light attack dmg, 20% stam/health regen...close, but advantage warden
- Warden gets 10% increased health from healing himself, Sorc gets 8% while daggers are up, roughly equal

Oh yea, forgot, sub assault is AOE....so it can be up to 6 times more powerful than Bound Armaments or Relentless Focus.

This is on a class with built in major/minor protection, major mending, major heroism, good projectile damage shields, as of 5.2, very good class spammable, none of which stam sorc has. I'm too lazy to do the same comparison with Stamblade, or Stamcro, but you get the picture.

If the new Bound armaments is "overloaded", then sub assault is even more so and is in dire need of a nerf based on the very arguments made in this thread.

starkerealm · September 2019

katorga wrote: »

- Sub Assault hits the target off the GCD allowing you to time and stack burst. This is why it is sooo good.

Except, Sub Assault requires you consume a GCD interval earlier. For alpha striking, yes, it's fantastic, because you can eat that GCD before the fight starts, but for most circumstances, it's a wash, because you're using the GCD interval, and then you get the payoff a few seconds later. So, outside of PvP, this element really doesn't matter much.

TBois · September 2019

They either need to buff damage just q bit or adjust the timing so it can be utilized better to burst with another skill.

Also sorting out if it is considered a pet or not for passives would be great. Having it inconsistently proc pet passives (now proccing health increase but not rebate) does continue making stam sorcs feel like the red headed step child. So I do understand if zos wants to keep the inconsistency. Especially to reinforce how we feel after forgetting bound armaments in the patch notes.

LiquidPony · September 2019

Burtan wrote: »

Would like to say that I think Armaments should do more damage than sub assault simply because it requires more effort.

If this means Armaments must lose the 8% stam then so be it.

Does anyone actually wonder how we keep getting closer and closer to a completely homogenized game?

People keep asking for it!

If you want Grim Focus, just play a Nightblade.

Burtan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

This is a comparison between Power Bash (one of the lower damage spammables) and Armaments on the same bar on a non cp build. Keep in mind that Power Bash requires no timing and can simply be spammed while Armaments requires timing with so little pay off. I would get more damage from using another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo than I would from firing armaments.

Power Slam is not lower damage spammable. Its one of the strongest instant cast spammables dealing same damage as Cutting Dive and more than Venom Skull, Silver Shards, Crushing Weapon, Force Pulse (if you had matching stats), Lava Whip or even Surprise Attack. Literally everything that comes from your post is just.... not true
You have Armaments on your bar so you are already profiting from half the power of the skill you are complaining about. Every delayed attack in the game including all of the DoTs even pre nerf deal less damage over X time than spamming spammable for that duration.

I didn't say it did less than those, but it does do less than the likes of dizzying swing and surprise attack on average among the most common PvP builds. This is beside the point anyways.

Why would I use the Armaments proc when I get more damage from not wasting a gcd and going for another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo?

Bound Armaments does not do less damage than Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. Nor does it do less damage than Power Slam, even according to the tooltips you posted.

Bound Armaments at 4 stacks would do 10,668 damage (non-crit) compared to the 8,000 tooltip from Power Slam. It also has the advantage of having a full 28m range.

Chilly-McFreeze · September 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

- Sub Assault hits the target off the GCD allowing you to time and stack burst. This is why it is sooo good.

Except, Sub Assault requires you consume a GCD interval earlier. For alpha striking, yes, it's fantastic, because you can eat that GCD before the fight starts, but for most circumstances, it's a wash, because you're using the GCD interval, and then you get the payoff a few seconds later. So, outside of PvP, this element really doesn't matter much.

That's the whole point, being able to combo it for PvP usage. BTW you consume some GCD's on B.A. too.

Speed_Kills · September 2019

As I have discussed with the other stamsorcs in my discord, this skill needs to be usable... not OP. Don’t read “too weak” and give it a 200% buff, please make small tweaks each week of pts in order to get it to a good place of balance. Excited about setting up bound armor combos!

Saril_Durzam · September 2019

Okay, let´s see.

Armaments has been used as a passive skill. Nice buffs.

If we go into an active skill, we need to udnerstand that, for being an active skill, it must be useful to click on it. IF it does less than a spammable, then you wont waste the GCD, meaning it´s working as a passive skill.

If the damage is similar, probably you won´t use it either, as you will prefer to control the rotation pressing the same button (that´s pesonal preference but seems loggical, move passive skills to buttons that are harder to reach or that you dont like to press, like the 5 for me).

Then, and considering the chrage is slow and you can´t spam it, the skill must be worth to play to press it. IF the skill finally does enough damage compared with a spammable, could get uses. But you will press it not much, for all mentioned earlier, so the damage or utility must be good.

Is it that good? I dunno.

ALTERNATIVE.

Utility/damage passive skill. You equip and gives bonus, and the skills summons one dagger each time you hit with a LA, to a maximum of 4. Each time you press one skill, there is a 10% chance that one summoned dagger goes to yoru target, dealing XXX damage (relatively low damage, let´s say one third dmg of a spammable).

The skill is passive, give bonus and adds a few damage up to four times while the skill last.

I feel this would work better than Armaments now and will give an unique feel.

katorga · September 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

- Sub Assault hits the target off the GCD allowing you to time and stack burst. This is why it is sooo good.

Except, Sub Assault requires you consume a GCD interval earlier. For alpha striking, yes, it's fantastic, because you can eat that GCD before the fight starts, but for most circumstances, it's a wash, because you're using the GCD interval, and then you get the payoff a few seconds later. So, outside of PvP, this element really doesn't matter much.

That's the whole point, being able to combo it for PvP usage. BTW you consume some GCD's on B.A. too.

Exactly. It is a huge component was why stam warden is so good, why mag sorc used to be so good, and why Necro could be good, if Blastbones actually functioned.

Burtan · September 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Would like to say that I think Armaments should do more damage than sub assault simply because it requires more effort.

If this means Armaments must lose the 8% stam then so be it.

Does anyone actually wonder how we keep getting closer and closer to a completely homogenized game?

People keep asking for it!

If you want Grim Focus, just play a Nightblade.

Burtan wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

This is a comparison between Power Bash (one of the lower damage spammables) and Armaments on the same bar on a non cp build. Keep in mind that Power Bash requires no timing and can simply be spammed while Armaments requires timing with so little pay off. I would get more damage from using another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo than I would from firing armaments.

Power Slam is not lower damage spammable. Its one of the strongest instant cast spammables dealing same damage as Cutting Dive and more than Venom Skull, Silver Shards, Crushing Weapon, Force Pulse (if you had matching stats), Lava Whip or even Surprise Attack. Literally everything that comes from your post is just.... not true
You have Armaments on your bar so you are already profiting from half the power of the skill you are complaining about. Every delayed attack in the game including all of the DoTs even pre nerf deal less damage over X time than spamming spammable for that duration.

I didn't say it did less than those, but it does do less than the likes of dizzying swing and surprise attack on average among the most common PvP builds. This is beside the point anyways.

Why would I use the Armaments proc when I get more damage from not wasting a gcd and going for another Power Bash/Light attack/Bash combo?

Bound Armaments does not do less damage than Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow. Nor does it do less damage than Power Slam, even according to the tooltips you posted.

Bound Armaments at 4 stacks would do 10,668 damage (non-crit) compared to the 8,000 tooltip from Power Slam. It also has the advantage of having a full 28m range.

Im not asking for this ability to be the same as grim focus, the fact is that it is already a similar ability and therefore should be comparable.

Armaments isnt a skill that can be regularly weaved with light attack and bash resulting in much less overall damage if you choose to cast it. You will get both more burst and more consitent dps by weaving a skill and ignoring armaments completely, at least in PvP.

For this ability to be viable it needs to have better burst or be redesigned entirely.