Now imagine an entire raid of magblades doing that, it would be even more awesome than Prootch's group-JBeam-from-stealth tactics

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

If they’re just “pin prick” levels of damage why are you so afraid of losing them? Also these “pin prick” levels of damage are exactly what everyone was crying about with bleeds, including you, and that could only be applied at melee range.

I'd disagree with calling the DOTs "pin prick" levels of damage, but they're also not the obscene death machines that some people are making them out to be. And the reason I'm personally "afraid" of losing them is that they're the only things keeping Magicka Necromancer's offense even remotely relevant right now. Prior to Scalebreaker, the class' killing power was absolutely laughable when up against anyone who was even remotely decent. If the DOTs get nerfed without some (major) simultaneous changes to the class itself, Magicka Necromancer will go back to being worthless for everything except being a dedicated healer. Even then, I think they're a fair bit behind the "best" healers in most cases.

Necro is worthless regardless. Magblade, Sorc both head and shoulders above necro as a dot class due to their better class kit. The fact that necro skills are so glitchy doesn't help. Same for stam necro...so many other classes do the whole 2H/Bow routine so much better. They are not in the top 3 healer or tank roles either.

Necros are great in group pvp or pve dps, and I still play mine almost exclusively. But it is not a good pvp class by any means.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

If they’re just “pin prick” levels of damage why are you so afraid of losing them? Also these “pin prick” levels of damage are exactly what everyone was crying about with bleeds, including you, and that could only be applied at melee range.

I'd disagree with calling the DOTs "pin prick" levels of damage, but they're also not the obscene death machines that some people are making them out to be. And the reason I'm personally "afraid" of losing them is that they're the only things keeping Magicka Necromancer's offense even remotely relevant right now. Prior to Scalebreaker, the class' killing power was absolutely laughable when up against anyone who was even remotely decent. If the DOTs get nerfed without some (major) simultaneous changes to the class itself, Magicka Necromancer will go back to being worthless for everything except being a dedicated healer. Even then, I think they're a fair bit behind the "best" healers in most cases.

Solo necro probably the worst situation regardless of offense. They shine much like Magwardens in groups tho. Not every class has to be sorc level solo ability imo.

I started pvp 5 years ago and never stopped it, but today (after the 3 last major updates), it's not fun anymore. Not only due to dots, but it's a part of it.

Because entropy and soul trap are undodgeable and instant they should be able to be CC broken.

With that being said alot of people are refusing to adapt to the game post patch and posting a tooltip of DoTs that have sat on them for 14 seconds, 12 seconds plus a curse explosion, etc....like it means something. Just saying.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

That is a naïve fallacy. You are comparing the effect of 1 global cooldown to the effect of 12 global cooldowns. The effect of these strong DoTs can be quite easily demonstrated.

1) Assume you spent these 12 global cooldowns spamming Crushing Shock at a tooltip of 9k. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 12*9k = 108k.

2) Now assume you throw in a DoT (e.g. Entropy) at the beginning. So over the course of the 12 GCDs you will have used 1 DoT and 11 Crushing Shocks. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 11*9k + 1*25k = 124k.

Those additional 16k have to be mitigated somehow. And since DoTs mostly tick for their entire duration (except in the case of the exceptions outlined above) that damage is certain. While some forms of mitigation are inherently adjusted to this increased damage through DoTs, others are not.

And it is not like you will just have to use another shield. 16k requires at least 2 shields. Add in a 2nd DoT and we are 32k additional damage, that is 3 additional shields that have to be cast by your opponent during those 12 GCDs. That means a huge loss in offensive capabilities as an additional 25% of the GCDs have to be reallocated to defensive abilities.

And the adverse effects don't stop there. These by ZOS neglected heals and shields are usually rather expensive and more expensive than the offensive skills that would have been used instead. Which means your opponent now has to allocate more stats into regen. Which in turn will decrease their offensive capabilities even further, b/c they will have to sacrifice max magicka (since stam builds usually don't use burst heals or shields) or spell damage to obtain the additional regen.

So these DoTs make the fights pretty one-sided if the opponents are in different categories in terms of DoT "resistance" of defensive tools - e.g. burst heal VS. dodge and cloak spammer.

Well I guess dot meta is really bad for the ones who used only roll dodge and vigor as their defensive . Now you will be actually forced to use 2 or even 3 (sick!) defensive skills! OMG this can't be the case!

Somehow stam DKs, Wardens and even Stamsorcs are still able to eat all those dots covered with spamable while dealing insane amounts of damage with Onslaught. Mhm... The grass is always greener on the other side.

Next time I get one-shotted by a 20K Onslaught, I'll try to remind myself that I should have killed the guy with 20 seconds of DOTs...

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Oh, right, it's WEAKER than Snipe spam!

LOL, good luck spamming Snipe on a magicka character

For the record, I tried to do that for the lolz when levelling bow skill line on my magsorc.
The damage output was roughly comparable to throwing dartboard darts at the enemy

Galarthor wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

That is a naïve fallacy. You are comparing the effect of 1 global cooldown to the effect of 12 global cooldowns. The effect of these strong DoTs can be quite easily demonstrated.

1) Assume you spent these 12 global cooldowns spamming Crushing Shock at a tooltip of 9k. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 12*9k = 108k.

2) Now assume you throw in a DoT (e.g. Entropy) at the beginning. So over the course of the 12 GCDs you will have used 1 DoT and 11 Crushing Shocks. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 11*9k + 1*25k = 124k.

Those additional 16k have to be mitigated somehow. And since DoTs mostly tick for their entire duration (except in the case of the exceptions outlined above) that damage is certain. While some forms of mitigation are inherently adjusted to this increased damage through DoTs, others are not.

And it is not like you will just have to use another shield. 16k requires at least 2 shields. Add in a 2nd DoT and we are 32k additional damage, that is 3 additional shields that have to be cast by your opponent during those 12 GCDs. That means a huge loss in offensive capabilities as an additional 25% of the GCDs have to be reallocated to defensive abilities.

And the adverse effects don't stop there. These by ZOS neglected heals and shields are usually rather expensive and more expensive than the offensive skills that would have been used instead. Which means your opponent now has to allocate more stats into regen. Which in turn will decrease their offensive capabilities even further, b/c they will have to sacrifice max magicka (since stam builds usually don't use burst heals or shields) or spell damage to obtain the additional regen.

So these DoTs make the fights pretty one-sided if the opponents are in different categories in terms of DoT "resistance" of defensive tools - e.g. burst heal VS. dodge and cloak spammer.

And all I'd that is brought into MUCH more manageable damage numbers after all forms of mitigation in conjunction with healing not being mitigated. It's easy and extremely common to mitigate 75 % of tooltip dmg. So that 25k entropy is likely about 6.5k dmg over the duration in pvp. Which is very manageable considering 25k tooltips on healing which isn't mitigated and not reduced when it crits, resulting in 12.5k healing or twice that of 1 dot, easily. Add in rally, dodge, pressure, OH LOOK IT'S ANN ACTUAL FIGHT AND NOT A TOOLTIP BATTLE.

Ofc the entire issue is more complex than the pure tooltip values. I just used them to illustrate my point to Emma about how the much larger damage dealt by DoTs when compared to other abilities matters, as DoTs almost always run their full course.

The loss of offensive capabilities remains the same though, as your opponents actual damage is also subject to mitigation (and Battle Spirit). Same is true for heals and shields btw.

Tooltip difference = 16k per DoT. With 2 DoTs that is 32k additional tooltip damage over 12 seconds. Battle Spirit cuts that in half to 16k. Those 16k are then subject mitigation which should on average be somewhere around 35%. This leaves an actual additional damage of 10.4k over.

Now it is time to factor in the crit (which I didn't in my original post for the sake of simplicity). A crit rate of 30% and a crit modifier of 70% on average are reasonable to assume. Of those 70%, 40% get mitigate by crit resitance. That leave an a crit multiplier of 30%. Tha bring us to (0.7*10.4k + 0.3*10.4k*1.3) = 11.3k over 12 seconds.

That is still 2 additional shields (given how shields got an additional damage taken multiplier in CP and are considerably weaker in non CP) or 2 HoTs. Which is not too far off from the original post. So the issue remains pretty much unchanged.

Your mitigation values are low. It's easy to mitigate 75% a good build. Then add in crit and resistance further mitigating EVERY crit. Most builds don't run 100% uptime on defile if they have it at all. So healing is MUCH less impacted by than damage is.

My point is hots are impactful as damage layering can an extremely effective way create "burst" like damage , but it's not like builds give up nothing to run them. Dots take time to make a difference, meaning it's heavily reliant on the fight. If all you can do is dot before you're forced to recover defensively bc you got slapped with 15k dmg in those 3 seconds it took you to apply 3 dots and do maybe 8k in that time frame.

The real issue with dots is the "3 people dots is too much!" Mentality. Yes it is a lot to handle but so it's 3 players with direct damage.

If you're in a group and the "group" doesn't have the counter though, that's on you and your team.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Desync, my friend, desync.

I'm well aware of the snipe desync bug.

But that won't help you much on a magicka build, because your snipes will be hitting for about 1k damage, and you will only have enough stamina to fire a few of them.

Not at all helpful, unless you are standing on the keep walls spamming snipe at the attackers

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

That is a naïve fallacy. You are comparing the effect of 1 global cooldown to the effect of 12 global cooldowns. The effect of these strong DoTs can be quite easily demonstrated.

1) Assume you spent these 12 global cooldowns spamming Crushing Shock at a tooltip of 9k. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 12*9k = 108k.

2) Now assume you throw in a DoT (e.g. Entropy) at the beginning. So over the course of the 12 GCDs you will have used 1 DoT and 11 Crushing Shocks. Your total damage from these 12 GCDs will be 11*9k + 1*25k = 124k.

Those additional 16k have to be mitigated somehow. And since DoTs mostly tick for their entire duration (except in the case of the exceptions outlined above) that damage is certain. While some forms of mitigation are inherently adjusted to this increased damage through DoTs, others are not.

And it is not like you will just have to use another shield. 16k requires at least 2 shields. Add in a 2nd DoT and we are 32k additional damage, that is 3 additional shields that have to be cast by your opponent during those 12 GCDs. That means a huge loss in offensive capabilities as an additional 25% of the GCDs have to be reallocated to defensive abilities.

And the adverse effects don't stop there. These by ZOS neglected heals and shields are usually rather expensive and more expensive than the offensive skills that would have been used instead. Which means your opponent now has to allocate more stats into regen. Which in turn will decrease their offensive capabilities even further, b/c they will have to sacrifice max magicka (since stam builds usually don't use burst heals or shields) or spell damage to obtain the additional regen.

So these DoTs make the fights pretty one-sided if the opponents are in different categories in terms of DoT "resistance" of defensive tools - e.g. burst heal VS. dodge and cloak spammer.

And all I'd that is brought into MUCH more manageable damage numbers after all forms of mitigation in conjunction with healing not being mitigated. It's easy and extremely common to mitigate 75 % of tooltip dmg. So that 25k entropy is likely about 6.5k dmg over the duration in pvp. Which is very manageable considering 25k tooltips on healing which isn't mitigated and not reduced when it crits, resulting in 12.5k healing or twice that of 1 dot, easily. Add in rally, dodge, pressure, OH LOOK IT'S ANN ACTUAL FIGHT AND NOT A TOOLTIP BATTLE.

Ofc the entire issue is more complex than the pure tooltip values. I just used them to illustrate my point to Emma about how the much larger damage dealt by DoTs when compared to other abilities matters, as DoTs almost always run their full course.

The loss of offensive capabilities remains the same though, as your opponents actual damage is also subject to mitigation (and Battle Spirit). Same is true for heals and shields btw.

Tooltip difference = 16k per DoT. With 2 DoTs that is 32k additional tooltip damage over 12 seconds. Battle Spirit cuts that in half to 16k. Those 16k are then subject mitigation which should on average be somewhere around 35%. This leaves an actual additional damage of 10.4k over.

Now it is time to factor in the crit (which I didn't in my original post for the sake of simplicity). A crit rate of 30% and a crit modifier of 70% on average are reasonable to assume. Of those 70%, 40% get mitigate by crit resitance. That leave an a crit multiplier of 30%. Tha bring us to (0.7*10.4k + 0.3*10.4k*1.3) = 11.3k over 12 seconds.

That is still 2 additional shields (given how shields got an additional damage taken multiplier in CP and are considerably weaker in non CP) or 2 HoTs. Which is not too far off from the original post. So the issue remains pretty much unchanged.

Your mitigation values are low. It's easy to mitigate 75% a good build. Then add in crit and resistance further mitigating EVERY crit. Most builds don't run 100% uptime on defile if they have it at all. So healing is MUCH less impacted by than damage is.

My point is hots are impactful as damage layering can an extremely effective way create "burst" like damage , but it's not like builds give up nothing to run them. Dots take time to make a difference, meaning it's heavily reliant on the fight. If all you can do is dot before you're forced to recover defensively bc you got slapped with 15k dmg in those 3 seconds it took you to apply 3 dots and do maybe 8k in that time frame.

The real issue with dots is the "3 people dots is too much!" Mentality. Yes it is a lot to handle but so it's 3 players with direct damage.

If you're in a group and the "group" doesn't have the counter though, that's on you and your team.

I agree on the 3 player part. And if you look closely you will notice that none of my posts refers to outnumbered situations.

My point basically boils down to that the factor by which DoTs are stronger than equivalent direct damage attacks is simply too high, given that in many cases the DoTs tick for their full duration. This is many due to fact that in many cases the defensive tools have not been adapted to DoTs and/or the increased damage these builds now face (see list above). ZOS simply only adjusted the offensive side, but neglected the defensive side of the equation (except ofc fors HoTs that is!). Some defensive mechanics are inherently adapted to the new DoT meta and the increased damage coming from DoT, others just aren't.

You can argue about every single number in my examples. Ofc some builds will have higher or lower numbers. These are just some reasonable average numbers to illustrate the issue. 75% Mitigation after battle spirit puts you in the realm of perm-blockers, tanks, and perma-dodgers. I could easily come up with a build that only runs 20% Mitigation and 20% crit resistance. I tried to use some reasonable average values b/c going to either end of the range won't be much representative.

Jeezye wrote: »

7 seconds of combat minimum, imagine being hit by 7 GCDs of spammabldes by two people with this high of offensive stats. You'd be dead nonetheless, dots are fine

One has counterplay, the other doesn't. Combat should not force you to just stack mitigation and healing to survive. Skill should play the biggest part in surviving, unfortunately that is not the case in this game, because it doesn't matter how good you are, how quick you can react to things, if multiple people stack dots on you then you're going to die.

PvP is actually ruined, don't even bother with pve so wouldn't know. Everyone is doing the same thing, everyone is templars, no one uses any moves apart from dots. Furthermore you can ani cancel Ults? It's zerglings paradise, all the skill removed from game. Such a shame.