ESO = Entropy Soul(trap) Online

FearlessOne_2014

Well now everybody yelling for nerfs can sleep happily finally. RIP

Crixus8000

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

.... look you need to learn how combat works. Not all counters are a complete removal of the impact. For instance, sweeps stun had 70% snare. It's meant to counter movement. Movement is literally one of many counters to sweeps.

What you're having a problem with is damage layering.

So yes it has a counter you move out the way, or kite it . Dots has no counter, I can't outrun dot damage.

EtTuBrutus

Crixus8000 wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

.... look you need to learn how combat works. Not all counters are a complete removal of the impact. For instance, sweeps stun had 70% snare. It's meant to counter movement. Movement is literally one of many counters to sweeps.

What you're having a problem with is damage layering.

So yes it has a counter you move out the way, or kite it . Dots has no counter, I can't outrun dot damage.

Ok.

FearlessOne_2014

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

.... look you need to learn how combat works. Not all counters are a complete removal of the impact. For instance, sweeps stun had 70% snare. It's meant to counter movement. Movement is literally one of many counters to sweeps.

What you're having a problem with is damage layering.

So yes it has a counter you move out the way, or kite it . Dots has no counter, I can't outrun dot damage.

Ok.

He willfully forgot to add, that DoTs could be purged, while Direct Damage can not.

Crixus8000

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

He willfully forgot to add, that DoTs could be purged, while Direct Damage can not.

Nope, I mentioned that. "Sure templar can purge or nb can cloak but what about other classes ?"

So once again, if your a class that doesn't have cloak or purge then dot's have 0 counter, and you don't need to purge direct damage because you can simply avoid it in the first place.

Drdeath20

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

He willfully forgot to add, that DoTs could be purged, while Direct Damage can not.

Nope, I mentioned that. "Sure templar can purge or nb can cloak but what about other classes ?"

So once again, if your a class that doesn't have cloak or purge then dot's have 0 counter, and you don't need to purge direct damage because you can simply avoid it in the first place.

Why cant the other classes purge?

FearlessOne_2014

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

He willfully forgot to add, that DoTs could be purged, while Direct Damage can not.

Nope, I mentioned that. "Sure templar can purge or nb can cloak but what about other classes ?"

So once again, if your a class that doesn't have cloak or purge then dot's have 0 counter, and you don't need to purge direct damage because you can simply avoid it in the first place.

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because he's just a brainlet that's why. Anyone who actually play the game knows. EVERYONE CAN PURGE by slotting a purge that accessible to all. But then again that just won't fit his narrative.

Crixus8000

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because the only purge skill that exists outside of templar is terrible, and just not really possible to use at all on a stamina char to counter dots.

crazywolfpusher

make a thread crying about magicka dots
all dots including stamina staples are nerfed as result
lovely

FearlessOne_2014

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because the only purge skill that exists outside of templar is terrible, and just not really possibel to use at all on a stamina char to counter dots.

Do WhAt MaGiCkA PlAyErS Do to CoUnTeR Cc. GeT MoRe oF tHe OpPoSiTe ReSoRuCe aNd BoOm NoW YoU cAn PrUgE 2 oR 3 tIMeS jUsT LiKe MaGiCkA cAn OnLy BrEaK Cc 3 oR 4 tImEs!

Now did you understand it from that stance?

FearlessOne_2014

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

make a thread crying about magicka dots
all dots including stamina staples are nerfed as result
lovely

Drdeath20

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because the only purge skill that exists outside of templar is terrible, and just not really possibel to use at all on a stamina char to counter dots.

In what kind of scenario? I agree that in a X v 1 scenario a stamina character has no chance of surviving with purge but in small scale its very pratical. Large scale is a crapshoot.

Crixus8000

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Do WhAt MaGiCkA PlAyErS Do to CoUnTeR Cc. GeT MoRe oF tHe OpPoSiTe ReSoRuCe aNd BoOm NoW YoU cAn PrUgE 2 oR 3 tIMeS jUsT LiKe MaGiCkA cAn OnLy BrEaK Cc 3 oR 4 tImEs!

Now did you understand it from that stance?

Already spending my magicka on streak, crit surge and dark deal, how am I supposed to have enough magicka to spam a 5k + skill every few seconds too lol. Not that I even have the bar space for it anyway.

Crixus8000

Drdeath20 wrote: »

In what kind of scenario? I agree that in a X v 1 scenario a stamina character has no chance of surviving with purge but in small scale its very pratical. Large scale is a crapshoot.

As a mainly solo player I guess I am mainly talking about being outnumbered, as with direct attacks I have options. I can use los to avoid things like dizzy, I can block things like frags, it's fun skill based combat, but with dots, I just hope my healing is enough and that's terrible game design imo. I shouldnt have to be a tank to counter something.

But that's basically what I'm saying, I don't think the scenario matters, I just have an issue with the general idea of dot damage, and that skill isn't a way to stop it, but just stacking resists and healing is, it just makes the game more unhealthy imo.

Drdeath20

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

In what kind of scenario? I agree that in a X v 1 scenario a stamina character has no chance of surviving with purge but in small scale its very pratical. Large scale is a crapshoot.

As a mainly solo player I guess I am mainly talking about being outnumbered, as with direct attacks I have options. I can use los to avoid things like dizzy, I can block things like frags, it's fun skill based combat, but with dots, I just hope my healing is enough and that's terrible game design imo. I shouldnt have to be a tank to counter something.

But that's basically what I'm saying, I don't think the scenario matters, I just have an issue with the general idea of dot damage, and that skill isn't a way to stop it, but just stacking resists and healing is, it just makes the game more unhealthy imo.

Fair enough. I can see where your comming from. Some things work perfectly in certain scenarios and are cancerous in other.

Rianai

The issue isn't so much with the design of dots (most counters to direct dmg also works against dots - with the exception of block). The problem is that dots do too much for their cost and ease to use, which makes stacking them too strong.

And it is is mainly the stacking that is problematic, which is why homogenisation of the dmg is so bad. Either all dots are strong so stacking becomes too efficient - creating the issues we have now - or the dmg is so bad that they are not worth using at all (which might be the case next patch). It would be much better to have more diversity withing skill types - some more focused on dmg, others more on utility, like it was previously. Then builds can still utilize some dots for dmg, but there won't be that much high dmg dots that can be stacked to create this overwhelming pressure.

Purge is crap btw, even on mag builds.

wheem_ESO

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Do WhAt MaGiCkA PlAyErS Do to CoUnTeR Cc. GeT MoRe oF tHe OpPoSiTe ReSoRuCe aNd BoOm NoW YoU cAn PrUgE 2 oR 3 tIMeS jUsT LiKe MaGiCkA cAn OnLy BrEaK Cc 3 oR 4 tImEs!

Now did you understand it from that stance?

Already spending my magicka on streak, crit surge and dark deal, how am I supposed to have enough magicka to spam a 5k + skill every few seconds too lol. Not that I even have the bar space for it anyway.

Remember this argument when you keep talking about how easy it is to avoid Dizzying Swing spam, back-to-back Crystal Frag procs, etc...Not everyone can do a ton of blocking and dodge rolling and still not get insta-wrecked by the first CC that comes their way, especially in no-CP.

Crixus8000

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Remember this argument when you keep talking about how easy it is to avoid Dizzying Swing spam, back-to-back Crystal Frag procs, etc...Not everyone can do a ton of blocking and dodge rolling and still not get insta-wrecked by the first CC that comes their way, especially in no-CP.

When did I ever say it was easy ? I play solo in no cp, trust me I know exactly how hard it is when you have multiple people spamming direct attacks at you.

But my point again has nothing to do with difficulty, my point is simply that direct hits in some situations can be countered by skill, when dot damage any any situation can not, if your on a class with no purge/cloak. It's just how dot's work that I don't like, since I beleive skill should be the main defence in surviving, not just building a tank.

cmvet

Crixus8000 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's easier to counter DOTs than it is someone who's spamming Dizzying Swing for virtually every GCD while sitting on an Onslaught. And that's true even if you don't have a cleanse. I can't count the number of times that my character has been fully in a block animation (and not out of stamina), or that someone has been well outside of melee range on my screen, yet I still get knocked into the air by a 6k Dizzying Swing and hit with a 9k Onslaught before my break free decides it wants to function properly.

I haven't lost a duel against any dizzy onslaught build yet but I have against dot builds with zaan. I know exactly how to counter onsalught and dizzy because I can use skill to avoid it, but against dots there is actually nothing you can do and it's honestly sad that people can't see this. The only way to help against it is to stack resists and healing, but that is not really a counter. And just makes the game more unhealthy.

But the fact still is that you can use skill to avoid dizzy and onslaught yet cannot avoid dots...

Not that I think onslaught is balanced btw because I said it was broken when they first mentioned the change.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

And there's so much Dizzy spam going on in BGs now that in some matches you basically have to permablock (which isn't really possible, especially on Magicka builds), or expect to get knocked into the air and either Onslaughted or Dizzied more while unable to block or dodge. Even among magicka builds, most of the dangerous ones aren't really relying on stacking up the new DOTs. The real killers among Mag builds are usually DKs, Sorcs, or some Templars, and they're not just DOT-stacking everyone.

Well I don't bg much but in cyrodil I would say most of my deaths are to dots, even if they don't actually kill me they are still the cause because with so many dots on you have little time to go offensive and your heals do nothing.

But if I fight burst focused builds I can actually outplay them. That's what healthy pvp is, it's about using skill to get kills and avoid dying, dots take no skill to use and have no counterplay.

Many mag players just shield through dots... just another counter that works well if you need one. I will pop a shield if i have a ton of dots on me rather than spam cleanse cause it costs less. I can usually out heal 3-4 dots with sweeps very easy, but sometimes i just have to shield or cleanse. the issue with cleanse is that it's not guaranteed to remove the dot with all the negative effect that get placed on me, shield up and it's not an issue. Yes I do run light on my temp in kaal.

Lord-Otto

Shields are poor against DoTs. Too low value, too high cost. HoTs are the effective counter.

aetherial_heavenn

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because the only purge skill that exists outside of templar is terrible, and just not really possible to use at all on a stamina char to counter dots.

But requiring magika characters to off spec into stam in order to to roll dodge and block and break free to deal with high burst direct damage in our face with a stun attached or deal with stacked and chained hard cc's etc...which can also be delivered from range or stealth is just fine and dandy, isn't it?

There is a counter. You just don't like it. In fact there are several.

You can also run a heal because dots are slow damage. Just heal spam. Every class has a heal.

The OP shows dots over 12 sec. Lots of time to drink a magicka/lingering health potion and use the mag to then use the efficient cleanse skill twice.

Magicka doesn't like have to roll dodge or break free . But we have too. And it costs us just as much of our off stat. So we add stamina, or use potions for stam or immovable potions or we get locked down and die.

Welcome to rock/paper/scssors.

BTW NB's and wardens have a cleanse too. But that doesn't fit your narrative either.

Crixus8000

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

There is a counter. You just don't like it. In fact there are several.

You can also run a heal because dots are slow damage. Just heal spam. Every class has a heal.

The OP shows dots over 12 sec. Lots of time to drink a magicka/lingering health potion and use the mag to then use the efficient cleanse skill twice.

Magicka doesn't like have to roll dodge or break free . But we have too. And it costs us just as much of our off stat. So we add stamina, or use potions for stam or immovable potions or we get locked down and die.

Welcome to rock/paper/scssors.

BTW NB's and wardens have a cleanse too. But that doesn't fit your narrative either.

I don't see what magicka having to roll ect has to do with what I'm saying. I just think in a pvp game, skill should be the way to avoid/prevent damage, not just stacking resists and healing.

cmvet

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Shields are poor against DoTs. Too low value, too high cost. HoTs are the effective counter.

heh? I cast 1 shield which negates 3 dots worth of damage. My shield is cheaper to cast than my cleanse.

cmvet

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why cant the other classes purge?

Because the only purge skill that exists outside of templar is terrible, and just not really possible to use at all on a stamina char to counter dots.

But requiring magika characters to off spec into stam in order to to roll dodge and block and break free to deal with high burst direct damage in our face with a stun attached or deal with stacked and chained hard cc's etc...which can also be delivered from range or stealth is just fine and dandy, isn't it?

There is a counter. You just don't like it. In fact there are several.

You can also run a heal because dots are slow damage. Just heal spam. Every class has a heal.

The OP shows dots over 12 sec. Lots of time to drink a magicka/lingering health potion and use the mag to then use the efficient cleanse skill twice.

Magicka doesn't like have to roll dodge or break free . But we have too. And it costs us just as much of our off stat. So we add stamina, or use potions for stam or immovable potions or we get locked down and die.

Welcome to rock/paper/scssors.

BTW NB's and wardens have a cleanse too. But that doesn't fit your narrative either.

don't forget that necros have a cleanse too.

NuarBlack

Crixus8000 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's easier to counter DOTs than it is someone who's spamming Dizzying Swing for virtually every GCD while sitting on an Onslaught. And that's true even if you don't have a cleanse. I can't count the number of times that my character has been fully in a block animation (and not out of stamina), or that someone has been well outside of melee range on my screen, yet I still get knocked into the air by a 6k Dizzying Swing and hit with a 9k Onslaught before my break free decides it wants to function properly.

I haven't lost a duel against any dizzy onslaught build yet but I have against dot builds with zaan. I know exactly how to counter onsalught and dizzy because I can use skill to avoid it, but against dots there is actually nothing you can do and it's honestly sad that people can't see this. The only way to help against it is to stack resists and healing, but that is not really a counter. And just makes the game more unhealthy.

But the fact still is that you can use skill to avoid dizzy and onslaught yet cannot avoid dots...

Not that I think onslaught is balanced btw because I said it was broken when they first mentioned the change.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

And there's so much Dizzy spam going on in BGs now that in some matches you basically have to permablock (which isn't really possible, especially on Magicka builds), or expect to get knocked into the air and either Onslaughted or Dizzied more while unable to block or dodge. Even among magicka builds, most of the dangerous ones aren't really relying on stacking up the new DOTs. The real killers among Mag builds are usually DKs, Sorcs, or some Templars, and they're not just DOT-stacking everyone.

Well I don't bg much but in cyrodil I would say most of my deaths are to dots, even if they don't actually kill me they are still the cause because with so many dots on you have little time to go offensive and your heals do nothing.

But if I fight burst focused builds I can actually outplay them. That's what healthy pvp is, it's about using skill to get kills and avoid dying, dots take no skill to use and have no counterplay.

So which is it? You lose to dots in 1v1 duels yet you say their real problem is when you are outnumbered. Sounds like you are just a potato farmer who isn't much better than the potatoes you try to farm and are upset that they can fight back a bit and you don't get to feel leet anymore crutching on whatever cheese you had been crutching on.

Cause dots are no problem 1v1. They are no problem in small scale like BGs. Sure they are now finally effective but are no more potent than direct damage and delayed burst skills. Infact delayed burst remains the type of offensive skill to have on your bars.

I'm sick of stuff getting nerfed to accomodate potatoes and potatoe farmers. You guys did it to snipe nerfing it into the ground and now you are doing it to dots. You won't be happy till all combat occurs within melee range and ult combos are the only method of getting kills.

Crixus8000

NuarBlack wrote: »

So which is it? You lose to dots in 1v1 duels yet you say their real problem is when you are outnumbered. Sounds like you are just a potato farmer who isn't much better than the potatoes you try to farm and are upset that they can fight back a bit and you don't get to feel leet anymore crutching on whatever cheese you had been crutching on.

Cause dots are no problem 1v1. They are no problem in small scale like BGs. Sure they are now finally effective but are no more potent than direct damage and delayed burst skills. Infact delayed burst remains the type of offensive skill to have on your bars.

I'm sick of stuff getting nerfed to accomodate potatoes and potatoe farmers. You guys did it to snipe nerfing it into the ground and now you are doing it to dots. You won't be happy till all combat occurs within melee range and ult combos are the only method of getting kills.

You call me a potato but are getting annoyed about dots being nerfed and complain about snipe nerf, 2 things that require 0 skill and what most potatos use for xv1 lol.

And if you think dots aren't good in 1v1s in no cp then you don't know what your talking about. Bleedblades where the gods of 1v1 for a long time.

All my points was just that dots compared to most other damage types have very little options of counterplay and for some they have no counterplay so it just makes the game less skillful, but I guess thats why many like them, because they find the game easier to play then.

I think some dots should exist like on the dk class since that is basically what the class is designed around, but currently on live there is too many dot options that deal too much damage and that should not be the case.

BlackMadara

Crixus8000 wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

So which is it? You lose to dots in 1v1 duels yet you say their real problem is when you are outnumbered. Sounds like you are just a potato farmer who isn't much better than the potatoes you try to farm and are upset that they can fight back a bit and you don't get to feel leet anymore crutching on whatever cheese you had been crutching on.

Cause dots are no problem 1v1. They are no problem in small scale like BGs. Sure they are now finally effective but are no more potent than direct damage and delayed burst skills. Infact delayed burst remains the type of offensive skill to have on your bars.

I'm sick of stuff getting nerfed to accomodate potatoes and potatoe farmers. You guys did it to snipe nerfing it into the ground and now you are doing it to dots. You won't be happy till all combat occurs within melee range and ult combos are the only method of getting kills.

You call me a potato but are getting annoyed about dots being nerfed and complain about snipe nerf, 2 things that require 0 skill and what most potatos use for xv1 lol.

And if you think dots aren't good in 1v1s in no cp then you don't know what your talking about. Bleedblades where the gods of 1v1 for a long time.

All my points was just that dots compared to most other damage types have very little options of counterplay and for some they have no counterplay so it just makes the game less skillful, but I guess thats why many like them, because they find the game easier to play then.

I think some dots should exist like on the dk class since that is basically what the class is designed around, but currently on live there is too many dot options that deal too much damage and that should not be the case.

Dot damage isn't the main issue, although they do a bit too much damage. The main issue is the ease of application of soul trap and entropy.

I assume that you use active defenses of dodge and los when playing solo. Against a group using only direct damage, this is effective. Against a group using DoTs that require either melee range or have a projectile, like searing strike and poison arrow, this is effective. Against a group using soul trap and entropy, this ineffective due to either not being able to dodge, or unable to see, the application of dot.

Imagine if you could dodge soul trap or entropy due to seeing a projectile flying at you. You could use your awareness to avoid that damage. If you lacked the awareness, then you take the damage. You could also dodge multiple applications from a group firing them at once.

People, not just yourself, need to see the real issue with these DoTs. The damage should be lowered a bit, not cut in half like on pts, but the main problem is the lack of counter play from application of the dot.

This issue also varies based on build. My mDK doesn't have any problems with DoTs because I build for high healing power and buff/debuff management. 3 high damage NB can hit me with cripple, soul trap, and entropy and I wouldn't die, unless I misplay. If those 3 NB focused instead on timing a merciless resolve burst with fear on my mDK, I'd probably die instantly.

I don't really worry about potatoes. I'll die no matter what if 15 scrubs catch me open field.

LegacyDM

Crixus8000 wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

.... look you need to learn how combat works. Not all counters are a complete removal of the impact. For instance, sweeps stun had 70% snare. It's meant to counter movement. Movement is literally one of many counters to sweeps.

What you're having a problem with is damage layering.

So yes it has a counter you move out the way, or kite it . Dots has no counter, I can't outrun dot damage.

You can block, heal, shield, alliance war purge, and cloak through dots if you got it. Maybe make your toon more tanky if you can’t handle. it. There’s even armor like weird tree if dots are too problematic for you. Yeah nice try. No counter my ass. Lol. You even have a CP node that reduces dot damage. But no one wants to use it cause why should they?

Git Gud. Strong players know how to deal with dots. If you can’t figure out how to deal with dots over the span of 8 seconds with your build, I don’t know what to tell you. Instead, people want their instant burst front loaded 1 second macro combos to continue to one shot people to keep staying on top. As soon as something threatens that they cry on forums.

Crixus8000

LegacyDM wrote: »

You can block, heal, shield, alliance war purge, and cloak through dots if you got it. Maybe make your toon more tanky if you can’t handle. it. There’s even armor like weird tree if dots are too problematic for you. Yeah nice try. No counter my ass. Lol. You even have a CP node that reduces dot damage. But no one wants to use it cause why should they?

Git Gud. Strong players know how to deal with dots. If you can’t figure out how to deal with dots over the span of 8 seconds with your build, I don’t know what to tell you. Instead, people want their instant burst front loaded 1 second macro combos to continue to one shot people to keep staying on top. As soon as something threatens that they cry on forums.

Where exactly did I say I couldn't handle dots ? I just said people shouldn't need to stack healing and resists to counter them since they should have more counterplay through skill, like blocking, rolling and los for example, and after me saying this you just say I need to stack resists and healing lol.

All my posts have been about the fact that some dots, like BlackMadara mentioned have a lack of counterplay. But if they continue to stay so easy to apply and still lack counterplay then yes I don't think they should have as much free damage. For example soul trap and entropy I see a lot on recap for over 10k and this damage is somthing I can't do anything about apart from heal through.

LegacyDM

Crixus8000 wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

You can block, heal, shield, alliance war purge, and cloak through dots if you got it. Maybe make your toon more tanky if you can’t handle. it. There’s even armor like weird tree if dots are too problematic for you. Yeah nice try. No counter my ass. Lol. You even have a CP node that reduces dot damage. But no one wants to use it cause why should they?

Git Gud. Strong players know how to deal with dots. If you can’t figure out how to deal with dots over the span of 8 seconds with your build, I don’t know what to tell you. Instead, people want their instant burst front loaded 1 second macro combos to continue to one shot people to keep staying on top. As soon as something threatens that they cry on forums.

Where exactly did I say I couldn't handle dots ? I just said people shouldn't need to stack healing and resists to counter them since they should have more counterplay through skill, like blocking, rolling and los for example, and after me saying this you just say I need to stack resists and healing lol.

All my posts have been about the fact that some dots, like BlackMadara mentioned have a lack of counterplay.

Sorry when reading all your counter arguments it sounded more like complaining.

The fact is, there are plenty of ways to counter. You just choose not to accept them. And if you can’t accept them, I am led to believe you don’t know how to use the tools I mentioned Effectively, hence it’s a L2P issue. Which is why I concluded you can’t handle it. There’s nothing wrong with stacking healing, or blocking, or using spell shields. That’s what we have to do with a lot of direct damage burst combos. But that’s apparently acceptable.