ESO = Entropy Soul(trap) Online

FearlessOne_2014

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

Quit whining and learn to build in the current META and slot Purge. If some of us can brush off DoTs like it's nothing and continue with our ~Time on Target~ to secure the kill. Then the problem is not a balance issue. But a stubbornness ~I'm not going to change my build~ issue

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

This is a bold face lie. Anybody who turns their attention to the Alliance War Support tree can see it. All classes have equal access to Purge! Just like all classes have equal access to Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block!

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

You are right DoTs are not balanced right now. They are weak in terms of potency to finish off your target 1 on 1. A burst rotation from stealth can end a engagement in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. Well before the subject have time to react and use counterplay.

DoTs on the other hand either take 7 or more Global Cooldowns or multiple subjects betting on the target to secure the kill. Which gives the target massive amount of time to initiate counterplay and turn the fight in their favor. Should the target have a proper build for the current META.

All and all Direct Burst damage 1 v 1 will do in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. The work that magicka DoTs can do in 7 or more Global Cooldowns. So yes there is a imbalance here.

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

Yup this is the only point from you I can agree with. Sweeping META shifts like this is a bad. There should be balancing. However there should not be complete destrustion of builds and playstyles to make room for the next set. I'd personally would like it, if every build and playstyle is viable.

TIL a well reasoned, eloquent addition to a debate is in fact "whining".

My arguments are detached from my personal performance or preference atm. I am doing fine this patch in terms of hollow measurable success (i.e. great K/D ratio, great ap per hour, great BG damage and K/D/A). So your attempt at a personal slight doesn't really help your argument.

You can suggest support skill lines purge as a universal counter to dots, however you haven't addressed that it is a terrible and ineffective skill. Also, in terms of performance, there is a huge gap between the power of the generic purge and class cleanses. On top of that, it is very cost inefficient for stam builds and tanks, therefore it can't be universal.

You can try to make a comparison between a NB ganker and a overblown meta of dot spammers, but that is kind of ridiculous. You can stop a NB ganker just by having the right amount of health. You can stop them by blocking for 1/10th of a second. You can counterplay NBs just by having enough impen. You can counterplay them with detect pots, time stop, overwhelming surge, caltrops, hurricane, spiked armor, mark target, eclipse, ritual of retribution, radiant mage light, steel tornado, proper use of dodge roll, fast reaction time, add ons, the list goes on forever. There is both passive low skill counters all the way to direct skill vs skill match up counters to that archetypal playstyle.

If you truly want build diversity to reign supreme, as you claim, you should want dots to be properly balanced. Sweeping meta's are based on poorly designed systems that hand out an imbalance of power. The only way to ensure that "every build and playstyle is viable" is to clear out that imbalance by fixing the poorly designed system.

If you are worried about the complete destruction of dots as a playstyle then that is not an issue of whether or not we SHOULD balance dots, that is an issue of whether or not you think this development team is CAPABLE of properly balancing dots. And that is an entirely different discussion.

- So then you agree on the other side of the fence. ~That counterplay for Direct Damage is not universal at all~ That counter play against direct damage burst builds, are very cost inefficient for magicka builds, therefore it can't be universal. Am I right?

Therefore just like magicka is weak against direct damage CC combo builds. Stamina is now also weak against DoT builds. Therefore some semblance of balance is starting to take shape. No?

- The DoT META will change very quicky once players start realizing. {I have even started to analyze DoTs vs Direct Damage in my mode of choice BGs. And let me tell you. I secure kills much faster with direct damage than I can ever with DoTs. }That outside of X v 1 Direct Damage is still the way to go. Actually the 1 v X scene is still currently being ruled by Direct Burst damage CC combo builds. Therefore again I'll say it. DoTs are much weaker than Direct Burst damage rotation in 1 v 1s and equal number group fights.

-

Rianai

Most DoTs are dodgeable, so the no counterplay argument isn't entirely true. However they might still do a bit too much for their cost/per GCD, so dmg should be toned down slightly (this goes for all those skills, not just the magicka ones). But i don't want to see the dmg completely ruined, especially for Entropy, because it is nice to finally have a skill for Major Sorcery that is not worthless outside of providing the buff - something stam always had with Rally/FM.

DarkGottbeard

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- So then you agree on the other side of the fence. ~That counterplay for Direct Damage is not universal at all~ That counter play against direct damage burst builds, are very cost inefficient for magicka builds, therefore it can't be universal. Am I right?

Therefore just like magicka is weak against direct damage CC combo builds. Stamina is now also weak against DoT builds. Therefore some semblance of balance is starting to take shape. No?

- The DoT META will change very quicky once players start realizing. {I have even started to analyze DoTs vs Direct Damage in my mode of choice BGs. And let me tell you. I secure kills much faster with direct damage than I can ever with DoTs. }That outside of X v 1 Direct Damage is still the way to go. Actually the 1 v X scene is still currently being ruled by Direct Burst damage CC combo builds. Therefore again I'll say it. DoTs are much weaker than Direct Burst damage rotation in 1 v 1s and equal number group fights.

-

I don't have a problem with burst damage or combo damage personally, in theory or in practice; on magicka builds or stamina builds.
The opponent is trying to line up several skills to hit all at once. If i have the game knowledge and skill to follow or predict their rotation then I can functionally counter that burst with base game defensive maneuvers.

If multiple players try to do this, i can see their efforts and react accordingly with positioning. Burst has meaningful audio, meaningful animations, and many different angles of counterplay.


I have survived several NBs ganking me at once through proper positioning and skillful predictive play. I have survived charge humping, dizzy swing spamming kill squads through positioning and skillful predictive play. And I have survived 16 dots in 2 seconds from an average group in this meta through immediately going back into the keep and using my healing ultimate.

Rianai wrote: »

Most DoTs are dodgeable, so the no counterplay argument isn't entirely true.

Most dots are dodgeable on the initial cast of the dot. That is an important distinction. If a dot hits you, then you can't stop the damage by dodging after. Once a dot has landed on you then you could completely disengage from the fight and you will still have to play out that damage.

Qbiken

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lots of people moaned about bleeds and the dot stacking bleed builds... not one person said “slot purge noob” - the dots available now are on par to everyone being a bleed build where once everything gets ticking, you die.

But hey, L2P.

Actually, I did see people suggesting purge as a counter to bleed builds. And the current non-class specific DOTs for Magicka are not on par with bleeds (even the current version of Rending Slashes and WW Bleed). Entropy and Soul Trap essentially always average out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds, while pre-Scalebreaker Rending Slashes + both proc bleeds would generally be around 1.6k - 2k every 2 seconds (and Rending still does that sort of damage, but the procs are justifiably weaker than they were before).

Entropy and Soul Trap certainly aren't "nothing" right now, but their effectiveness in small group fights in no-CP BGs is grossly exaggerated. And I'd prefer that my class not be utterly ruined because a certain chunk of the population wants to feel like pros by potato mashing in Cyrodiil, which gets countered by masses of players DOT-spamming them. If Magicka Necromancers get some other offensive tools that can make/keep them relevant after DOT nerfs, fine. But even if that happens, Entropy needs to remain in the same ballpark of usefulness as Rally/Forward Momentum; the pre-Scalebreaker gap was unacceptable, and went on for way too long.

Feel free to compare mag and stamina dots, but implying that the werewolf bleed is even in the same league as all of the other dots is a joke. WW bleed is probably the weakest of DoTs in this patch.....

FearlessOne_2014

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- So then you agree on the other side of the fence. ~That counterplay for Direct Damage is not universal at all~ That counter play against direct damage burst builds, are very cost inefficient for magicka builds, therefore it can't be universal. Am I right?

Therefore just like magicka is weak against direct damage CC combo builds. Stamina is now also weak against DoT builds. Therefore some semblance of balance is starting to take shape. No?

- The DoT META will change very quicky once players start realizing. {I have even started to analyze DoTs vs Direct Damage in my mode of choice BGs. And let me tell you. I secure kills much faster with direct damage than I can ever with DoTs. }That outside of X v 1 Direct Damage is still the way to go. Actually the 1 v X scene is still currently being ruled by Direct Burst damage CC combo builds. Therefore again I'll say it. DoTs are much weaker than Direct Burst damage rotation in 1 v 1s and equal number group fights.

-

I don't have a problem with burst damage or combo damage personally, in theory or in practice; on magicka builds or stamina builds.
The opponent is trying to line up several skills to hit all at once. If i have the game knowledge and skill to follow or predict their rotation then I can functionally counter that burst with base game defensive maneuvers.

If multiple players try to do this, i can see their efforts and react accordingly with positioning. Burst has meaningful audio, meaningful animations, and many different angles of counterplay.


I have survived several NBs ganking me at once through proper positioning and skillful predictive play. I have survived charge humping, dizzy swing spamming kill squads through positioning and skillful predictive play. And I have survived 16 dots in 2 seconds from an average group in this meta through immediately going back into the keep and using my healing ultimate.

Same can be said about myself and others against DoTs. I personally have no issues playing against players with DoT builds. They are pretty going to have + each other to kill me or die to me. I play a hybrid Direct Damage/DoT build loadout on my MagBlade. Soon to be using only entropy and crippling gasp as the only DoTs with the rest Direct Damage and some Support.

I can look at my list of debuffs on me, and negate their damage before they become a problem. I had multiply MagSorcs and MagPlars on me trying to kill me with DoT builds to no end. Only for me to recover and turn the tables to secure the kill against them. And the best part I don't have to predict their damage for them to not kill me.

I personally find DoTs underwhelming against me and against others. Compared to direct damage CC combo rotations. I am willing to put 250,000 gold that DoT META will not hold up outside of zergs till nerfs. DoT META will turn back to Direct Burst CC Combo damage META. With Stamina ruling the rest again before nerfs.

The only thing that has push DoTs into the META. Is the fact it gave some lower end magicka classes and builds, a chance to shine in a otherwise 2 year Stamina Dominate META. Again just sit back and watch. DoT META will be only reserved for zergs to X v 1. Outside of that Direct Damage will rule in PvP more so in Non CP.

katorga

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

Dots dont have counterplay.

Healing is the direct counter play to damage. Period. It is the fundamental core mechanic of the entire genre. You may or may not have additional counter play options like armor mitigation, blocking, dodging, moving out of red, etc., depending on the encounter, but healing is always the counter play to damage.

Insco851

katorga wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

Dots dont have counterplay.

Healing is the direct counter play to damage. Period. It is the fundamental core mechanic of the entire genre. You may or may not have additional counter play options like armor mitigation, blocking, dodging, moving out of red, etc., depending on the encounter, but healing is always the counter play to damage.

Yes of course- though dots have basically killed hots from being an offensive window. And heals cost more than offense, so it’s a losing battle to try and just flat outheal the dots.

You’ll run dry and still die with no real shot of flipping the fight. Dots can put you on the back foot and just never got off that bar without purge.

EtTuBrutus

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

You seen to be unaware of how a see-saw works. That's COUNTER balancing. That "regular play" you're bringing up is what counter play is.

Name me a build running 5 dots and proc sets that won't get eviscerated within 5 seconds. Not to mention you're letting someone apply to multiple dots without doing anything yourself.

Don't talk about zerg surfing. If you get 6 dots on you bc you're in a zerg but not in a group with roles that HARD COUNTER dots, stop crying about it. Stamina have dots too.

2 of which are free and proc off gcd.

ZOS_RogerJ

Greetings! Just a friendly reminder, as some posts have been removed, that it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread.

Emma_Overload

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

Quit whining and learn to build in the current META and slot Purge. If some of us can brush off DoTs like it's nothing and continue with our ~Time on Target~ to secure the kill. Then the problem is not a balance issue. But a stubbornness ~I'm not going to change my build~ issue

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

This is a bold face lie. Anybody who turns their attention to the Alliance War Support tree can see it. All classes have equal access to Purge! Just like all classes have equal access to Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block!

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

You are right DoTs are not balanced right now. They are weak in terms of potency to finish off your target 1 on 1. A burst rotation from stealth can end a engagement in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. Well before the subject have time to react and use counterplay.

DoTs on the other hand either take 7 or more Global Cooldowns or multiple subjects betting on the target to secure the kill. Which gives the target massive amount of time to initiate counterplay and turn the fight in their favor. Should the target have a proper build for the current META.

All and all Direct Burst damage 1 v 1 will do in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. The work that magicka DoTs can do in 7 or more Global Cooldowns. So yes there is a imbalance here.

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

Yup this is the only point from you I can agree with. Sweeping META shifts like this is a bad. There should be balancing. However there should not be complete destrustion of builds and playstyles to make room for the next set. I'd personally would like it, if every build and playstyle is viable.

TIL a well reasoned, eloquent addition to a debate is in fact "whining".

My arguments are detached from my personal performance or preference atm. I am doing fine this patch in terms of hollow measurable success (i.e. great K/D ratio, great ap per hour, great BG damage and K/D/A). So your attempt at a personal slight doesn't really help your argument.

You can suggest support skill lines purge as a universal counter to dots, however you haven't addressed that it is a terrible and ineffective skill. Also, in terms of performance, there is a huge gap between the power of the generic purge and class cleanses. On top of that, it is very cost inefficient for stam builds and tanks, therefore it can't be universal.

You can try to make a comparison between a NB ganker and a overblown meta of dot spammers, but that is kind of ridiculous. You can stop a NB ganker just by having the right amount of health. You can stop them by blocking for 1/10th of a second. You can counterplay NBs just by having enough impen. You can counterplay them with detect pots, time stop, overwhelming surge, caltrops, hurricane, spiked armor, mark target, eclipse, ritual of retribution, radiant mage light, steel tornado, proper use of dodge roll, fast reaction time, add ons, the list goes on forever. There is both passive low skill counters all the way to direct skill vs skill match up counters to that archetypal playstyle.

If you truly want build diversity to reign supreme, as you claim, you should want dots to be properly balanced. Sweeping meta's are based on poorly designed systems that hand out an imbalance of power. The only way to ensure that "every build and playstyle is viable" is to clear out that imbalance by fixing the poorly designed system.

If you are worried about the complete destruction of dots as a playstyle then that is not an issue of whether or not we SHOULD balance dots, that is an issue of whether or not you think this development team is CAPABLE of properly balancing dots. And that is an entirely different discussion.

- So then you agree on the other side of the fence. ~That counterplay for Direct Damage is not universal at all~ That counter play against direct damage burst builds, are very cost inefficient for magicka builds, therefore it can't be universal. Am I right?

Therefore just like magicka is weak against direct damage CC combo builds. Stamina is now also weak against DoT builds. Therefore some semblance of balance is starting to take shape. No?

- The DoT META will change very quicky once players start realizing. {I have even started to analyze DoTs vs Direct Damage in my mode of choice BGs. And let me tell you. I secure kills much faster with direct damage than I can ever with DoTs. }That outside of X v 1 Direct Damage is still the way to go. Actually the 1 v X scene is still currently being ruled by Direct Burst damage CC combo builds. Therefore again I'll say it. DoTs are much weaker than Direct Burst damage rotation in 1 v 1s and equal number group fights.

-

I enjoyed using the DOTs the first couple days. Then I started running into more and more Templars... so many Templars that the DOTs seemed worthless. Now I've switched back to direct damage, and I'm doing great. People have such lop-sided builds now that you can kill them with Crushing Shock spam, LOL.

wheem_ESO

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Most dots are dodgeable on the initial cast of the dot. That is an important distinction. If a dot hits you, then you can't stop the damage by dodging after. Once a dot has landed on you then you could completely disengage from the fight and you will still have to play out that damage.

As I've said before, you can dodge DOTs the same way you can dodge direct damage spammables - before they land. If I dodge roll after a Stam player's Dizzying Swing hits me for 6.5k damage in no-CP, it won't reduce that damage at all. So why should his dodge roll(s) after my Entropy lands reduce my damage...which will take far longer to materialize, doesn't have a connected stun, and can be cleansed?

Qbiken wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lots of people moaned about bleeds and the dot stacking bleed builds... not one person said “slot purge noob” - the dots available now are on par to everyone being a bleed build where once everything gets ticking, you die.

But hey, L2P.

Actually, I did see people suggesting purge as a counter to bleed builds. And the current non-class specific DOTs for Magicka are not on par with bleeds (even the current version of Rending Slashes and WW Bleed). Entropy and Soul Trap essentially always average out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds, while pre-Scalebreaker Rending Slashes + both proc bleeds would generally be around 1.6k - 2k every 2 seconds (and Rending still does that sort of damage, but the procs are justifiably weaker than they were before).

Entropy and Soul Trap certainly aren't "nothing" right now, but their effectiveness in small group fights in no-CP BGs is grossly exaggerated. And I'd prefer that my class not be utterly ruined because a certain chunk of the population wants to feel like pros by potato mashing in Cyrodiil, which gets countered by masses of players DOT-spamming them. If Magicka Necromancers get some other offensive tools that can make/keep them relevant after DOT nerfs, fine. But even if that happens, Entropy needs to remain in the same ballpark of usefulness as Rally/Forward Momentum; the pre-Scalebreaker gap was unacceptable, and went on for way too long.

Feel free to compare mag and stamina dots, but implying that the werewolf bleed is even in the same league as all of the other dots is a joke. WW bleed is probably the weakest of DoTs in this patch.....

That's factually incorrect, as demonstrated by the numbers I've previously given. As a refresher: x4 Werewolf Berserker Bleed - 7,974 (x5 Structured Entropy on the same screenshot for 4,547) That means that the Werewolf Bleed did 3,427 more damage (an increase of ~75%), despite having 1 less tick than Entropy did. Does that mean that WW is the most overpowered thing in the game? Of course not, I was simply pointing out that the bleed is stronger than the Magicka DOTs that are making some people freak out.

Valencer

One skill is a blockable melee stamina ability with a wind-up time. Another is an unblockable instant cast magicka ability with a 28m range and no travel time. What is your point?

I haven't PvP'd in like 2 years now, but even to me your argument doesn't make any sense. There's nothing you can do about a person (or multiple people if you really want to have a good time) applying these DoTs to you and unless you're a templar you're screwed, unlike Dizzying Swing which has multiple counterplay options and a very clear telegraph.

Mayrael

Valencer wrote: »

One skill is a blockable melee stamina ability with a wind-up time. Another is an unblockable instant cast magicka ability with a 28m range and no travel time. What is your point?

I haven't PvP'd in like 2 years now, but even to me your argument doesn't make any sense. There's nothing you can do about a person (or multiple people if you really want to have a good time) applying these DoTs to you and unless you're a templar you're screwed, unlike Dizzying Swing which has multiple counterplay options and a very clear telegraph.

Mhm... Try to counterplay dizzying spam on magicka toon when you can't afford for blocking or roll dodging more than 2-3 seconds. Usual combo of stam toons is, poison injection + soul trap swap dizzying spam till the guy flies in the air, onslaught while he can't block/roll because of clumsy cc break, executioner. When done right it takes like I said 2-3 GCDs to burst someone down from 100% to 0.

On the other hand I found that the only players that die to JUST DoTs are only some potatoes. I've met really good stam players that not only heal through dots without any effort but also can deal massive amounts of damage. It looks like it's not that bad, you just won't be carried by roll dodge and in general stamina.

For very long time the only competitive magicka toon in PvP was magsorc. Why? Because as the only one it had burst and mobility similar to stamina toons. Now magicka is more on pair with pressure.


I'm all in when it goes to nerfing dots but then magicka needs more burst options. We need melee magicka weapon to be able to actually deal some damage, destro staff is complete trash right now.

wheem_ESO

Valencer wrote: »

One skill is a blockable melee stamina ability with a wind-up time. Another is an unblockable instant cast magicka ability with a 28m range and no travel time. What is your point?

I haven't PvP'd in like 2 years now, but even to me your argument doesn't make any sense. There's nothing you can do about a person (or multiple people if you really want to have a good time) applying these DoTs to you and unless you're a templar you're screwed, unlike Dizzying Swing which has multiple counterplay options and a very clear telegraph.

So you haven't PvP'd in 2 years, but think you still know exactly how things work out in this patch? It sounds like you've just bought into all the apoplectic carrying on about DOTs on the forums, without actually experiencing any of it yourself. And my point should have been pretty easy to understand; taking 5-6k damage in 1 second is significantly more dangerous than taking 5-6k damage over 12 seconds.

Offer Stamina players the option to switch out Dizzying Swing for a Stamina-copy of Entropy, complete with the oh-so-important 28m range and no travel time, and see how many actual decent players take you up on that. The only ones that might are the bow builds that already forego Dizzying Swing (and I've seen maybe 2-3 of those players in BGs since Scalebreaker released on PC). Other than that tiny number of bow builds, literally every single Stamina player is running Dizzying Swing right now, and all of them are landing it quite regularly. Combine that with a ludicrously overpowered Onslaught, Power of the Light, Subterranean Assault, etc...and I've seen a lot of 1-shots lately. But oddly enough, not from DOT-focused Magicka builds.

Mojomonkeyman

I think its hilarious that the most complaints about dots come from people I know have been nerding on their master dw, bleed powered and pi supported play for years when there was no comparable option for magicka.

Similar to the snare issue a year ago - the same players that were tremorscale, stampede, bombard and heroic slash snaring/immobilizing half of cyrodiil for years suddenly identified snares as the most toxic thing ever when magicka players started to use those mechanics.

The human brain is fascinating.

FearlessOne_2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I think its hilarious that the most complaints about dots come from people I know have been nerding on their master dw, bleed powered and pi supported play for years when there was no comparable option for magicka.

Similar to the snare issue a year ago - the same players that were tremorscale, stampede, bombard and heroic slash snaring/immobilizing half of cyrodiil for years suddenly identified snares as the most toxic thing ever when magicka players started to use those mechanics.

The human brain is fascinating.

Isn't it tho.

Lord-Otto

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I think its hilarious that the most complaints about dots come from people I know have been nerding on their master dw, bleed powered and pi supported play for years when there was no comparable option for magicka.

Similar to the snare issue a year ago - the same players that were tremorscale, stampede, bombard and heroic slash snaring/immobilizing half of cyrodiil for years suddenly identified snares as the most toxic thing ever when magicka players started to use those mechanics.

The human brain is fascinating.

True. The new DoTs give magicka an edge. Still, it's very boring design. And this game desperately needs better, more interesting combat!
=/

katorga

In Update 24, we will be pulling back on the power of Damage over Time abilities, but not Heal over Time abilities. This will reign in some of the damage we’re seeing in PVP, but should not inhibit the completion of trials, dungeons, and arenas. We’ve also adjusted our standards of Area of Effect-based DoTs to once again do similar damage to single target counterparts, but with a much greater cost.

Sounds like all of this is moot, per the U24 combat Preview post, dots are going to get nerfed next update, AOE dots are going to be un-nerfed back to previous damage, and have their costs increased.

On a side note, DK, Warden and Sorcerer are going to get an "identity" review to give them as much "identity" as Necromancer. That sounds bad.

thankyourat

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I think its hilarious that the most complaints about dots come from people I know have been nerding on their master dw, bleed powered and pi supported play for years when there was no comparable option for magicka.

Similar to the snare issue a year ago - the same players that were tremorscale, stampede, bombard and heroic slash snaring/immobilizing half of cyrodiil for years suddenly identified snares as the most toxic thing ever when magicka players started to use those mechanics.

The human brain is fascinating.

True. The new DoTs give magicka an edge. Still, it's very boring design. And this game desperately needs better, more interesting combat!
=/

The new dots are strong and should probably be nerfed but they don’t really give magicka the edge outside of a Xv1. Stamina still has access to dots and they generally hit me harder. When looking at death recaps the strongest dots on there are usually poison injection and duel wield bleeds. I sometimes see poison injection in my death recap with 8k damage. So it’s not really a magicka vs stamina thing because both have access to dots and most of the stamina dots are actually hitting harder. Soul trap is universal.

I think players are saying magicka has the edge because the most OP class in the game happens to be magicka. In reality 4 out of the 6 magicka classes aren’t that good right now. While on the flip side only 1 or 2 stamina classes are weak. I agree the dots are very boring design. Overall the dots need to be toned down by probably 25% across the board for both stam and mag because they apply a lot of pressure for very little cost.

Lord-Otto

thankyourat wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I think its hilarious that the most complaints about dots come from people I know have been nerding on their master dw, bleed powered and pi supported play for years when there was no comparable option for magicka.

Similar to the snare issue a year ago - the same players that were tremorscale, stampede, bombard and heroic slash snaring/immobilizing half of cyrodiil for years suddenly identified snares as the most toxic thing ever when magicka players started to use those mechanics.

The human brain is fascinating.

True. The new DoTs give magicka an edge. Still, it's very boring design. And this game desperately needs better, more interesting combat!
=/

The new dots are strong and should probably be nerfed but they don’t really give magicka the edge outside of a Xv1. Stamina still has access to dots and they generally hit me harder. When looking at death recaps the strongest dots on there are usually poison injection and duel wield bleeds. I sometimes see poison injection in my death recap with 8k damage. So it’s not really a magicka vs stamina thing because both have access to dots and most of the stamina dots are actually hitting harder. Soul trap is universal.

I think players are saying magicka has the edge because the most OP class in the game happens to be magicka. In reality 4 out of the 6 magicka classes aren’t that good right now. While on the flip side only 1 or 2 stamina classes are weak. I agree the dots are very boring design. Overall the dots need to be toned down by probably 25% across the board for both stam and mag because they apply a lot of pressure for very little cost.

Fair point.

Kadoin

red_emu wrote: »

Wait. You can block dots?

Shh...

Valencer wrote: »

One skill is a blockable melee stamina ability with a wind-up time. Another is an unblockable instant cast magicka ability with a 28m range and no travel time. What is your point?

I haven't PvP'd in like 2 years now, but even to me your argument doesn't make any sense. There's nothing you can do about a person (or multiple people if you really want to have a good time) applying these DoTs to you and unless you're a templar you're screwed, unlike Dizzying Swing which has multiple counterplay options and a very clear telegraph.

Yeah there is, you can invest in enough healing and damage reduction to negate the damage and still come out in the green. Works out for me on my mag DK! Works on my stam chars too. I think the forums are out to have their easy mode turned back on to be honest.

Mayrael wrote: »

I've met really good stam players that not only heal through dots without any effort but also can deal massive amounts of damage. It looks like it's not that bad, you just won't be carried by roll dodge and in general stamina.

I actually ignore DoTs on my stam DK and stam sorc, something I cannot do on any mag char (not even mag templar), because of how the healing output is achieved to negate DoTs. But stop it. We can't have reality play a part on the forums. When that happens lots of people will get angry...

EDIT: fixed cut comment

Mayrael

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

Vapirko

Mayrael wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

7 seconds of combat minimum, imagine being hit by 7 GCDs of spammabldes by two people with this high of offensive stats. You'd be dead nonetheless, dots are fine

One has counterplay, the other doesn't. Combat should not force you to just stack mitigation and healing to survive. Skill should play the biggest part in surviving, unfortunately that is not the case in this game, because it doesn't matter how good you are, how quick you can react to things, if multiple people stack dots on you then you're going to die.

Give magicka spamables and ults like stamina have (Onslaught, used to be DBoS, Dizzying etc.) and we can talk about balance. Everyone talks about sudden magicka dots, but nobody cares about poison injection, blood craze etc. On my death recaps they have same values as magicka dots but in addition to them I have 10k+ onslaughts (noCP), 5k dizzying etc.

What counterplay has 20k burst in 2-3 GCD covered with preaplied DoTs? Dude even I use on my magicka toons Onslaught because it hits 2-3 times harder than my magicka ults. Yesterday I have hit a guy with 14k onslaught (noCP) on a freaking magicka toon - totally balanced

If I would use dizzying, onslaught, executioner combo I would be able to wipe the floor with half of the Cyrodiil. Add to this things like subterranean assault of stamden, random dots and ult generation and you have no skill required build ready.

It's funny that most drama because of magicka DoTs is created here on forums while Cyrodiil is still filled with players that not only refuse to die to these DoTs but also dare to kill the casters! 0_o I know it's shocking.

Mag DK whip, Magplar jabs, Mag sorc frags, cu

Mayrael wrote: »

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

It’s very likely that bleed is with the master weapon, which you have to sacrifice a 5th trait for and earn them in the first place, and poison injection is an execute so it starts to ramp up in damage when you’re in execute range. It’s also coming from a stam player which often have lower max stat that their mag counterparts by several thousand or more and that ability scales with the highest max stat. Good try though.

Lord-Otto

Mayrael wrote: »

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

Okay, I'm not defending either form of DoT, they're all excessively strong. In that screenshot, Soul-Splitting Trap is used. That one's 33% weaker than Consuming Trap. It's the wrong morph, IMO. Consuming should close in on 6k damage, rounded up slightly for dramatic effect. Not as hefty as Poison Injection or (Master's) bleeds, but still quite noticeable.

Waffennacht

Mayrael wrote: »

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

To me, if someone is using any flurry morph; they're probably running vMA DW to buff the hell outta every single ability on your recap

Bosi

The problem with dots doesn't come when you're 1 on 1 with someone and it's only their dots. The problem comes when multiple players are placing the same dots on 1 person. I don't care for the whole "one person should not be able to kill X amount of people, numbers should always win" argument. Sorry, but if I've put an extensive amount of hours into the game, and 10 people with little to no knowledge of combat or what other classes do outside of their own want to fight me, then they should lose that fight, unless I make a mistake. Thats how its been before, and that's how it should be. With soul trap, no amount of correct gameplay and capitalizing on others mistakes will save me from 1-2k ticks multiplied by 10, besides using a cleanse, which as previously stated, the alliance war cleanse leaves more to be desired compared to certain class based purges such as ritual for templar.

Waffennacht

Bosi wrote: »

The problem with dots doesn't come when you're 1 on 1 with someone and it's only their dots. The problem comes when multiple players are placing the same dots on 1 person. I don't care for the whole "one person should not be able to kill X amount of people, numbers should always win" argument. Sorry, but if I've put an extensive amount of hours into the game, and 10 people with little to no knowledge of combat or what other classes do outside of their own want to fight me, then they should lose that fight, unless I make a mistake. Thats how its been before, and that's how it should be. With soul trap, no amount of correct gameplay and capitalizing on others mistakes will save me from 1-2k ticks multiplied by 10, besides using a cleanse, which as previously stated, the alliance war cleanse leaves more to be desired compared to certain class based purges such as ritual for templar.

I don't understand how 10 people successfully targeting and applying dots to a single player reveals them to be less skilled.

Kinda feel like it's your fault you allowed yourself to be in a position to have 10 players target you and apply dots

This however is all avoided by being in BGs

LegacyDM

Vapirko wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

DoTs are just way too strong. You spent 1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage. Where else can you get numbers like this.

Sure, it is not the same as direct damage as it does not all unload immediately and as such should deal more damage as it gives you more time to counter. But given that essentially only Templars and NBs have a viable counter and fights usually last the duration of the dots (unless you are fighting those new Dizzying Swing One-Shot Builds) it is essentially an attack that deals twice to three times the damage as any other attack. Which is just too much. Even given its delayed nature, a 200% to 300% increase of DoTs over direct damage abilities is not warranted due to them almost always running for their entire duration.

And not all Defensive Tools did not keep up with that development.

• Cloak is inherently fine as it surpresses DoTs
• Purge is having a blast and consistently something to do - unfortunately it is only viable on Templars
• Dodge Roll as always is fine too, as most of the DoTs can be dodged and thus never affect the target
• Heals only received partial adjustments - especially in the HoT department
• Shields are completely unadjusted, in fact they even got nerfed in the wake of this massive DPS increase
• Block should be fine due to it's percentage based nature and the buff to HoTs

So unless you are spamming Cloak, Dodge, Purge, or Block - or in other words, are a Stamblade, Magblade, Magplar, or Perma-blocker - you are taking significantly more damage than before and have to cope with defensive tools that were not meant for this kind of pressure.

LOL @ "1 global cooldown for 20k to 25k Tooltip damage..."

You have TWELVE global cooldowns to heal or shield though that damage! If the same enemy casts an second Entropy during that time, it merely overwrites the first Entropy. They do not stack!

Again, what are you guys DOING this whole time these pin prick levels of damage are ticking away on you every two seconds?

If they’re just “pin prick” levels of damage why are you so afraid of losing them? Also these “pin prick” levels of damage are exactly what everyone was crying about with bleeds, including you, and that could only be applied at melee range.

Shakes head at how defensive you are when people point out how long a duration those dots were on you.

I wish you were on PC/NA so we could meet up for a 1v1 and you could show me exactly how wrong I am lol. Or maybe you are? Not that you would anyway, you just like hiding behind the forums. I admitted I made a mistake there, but again I never asked for a nerf, said I was having trouble or anything other than this new meta is just silly.

Yeah ok. People weren’t born yesterday. You create a post with a screen shot posting big damage numbers with lols. You claim your not asking for nerfs but every thing you say in defense is asking for a nerf. Including calling the meta silly. No nerfs here! But the meta is silly! You hear how contrary and ridiculous this sounds?

Everyone can see the intent behind a posting like this. Screen shot big damage numbers with no context behind it, get community to rally behind you, hope that Brian wheeler sees it while scratching his head thinking hmmm thats not intended, and boom just like that, it gets nerfed, and you profit. So you can continue winning your 1v1s without having to develop a new play style or adapt to a dot change. Bravo!

Mayrael

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

7 seconds of combat minimum, imagine being hit by 7 GCDs of spammabldes by two people with this high of offensive stats. You'd be dead nonetheless, dots are fine

One has counterplay, the other doesn't. Combat should not force you to just stack mitigation and healing to survive. Skill should play the biggest part in surviving, unfortunately that is not the case in this game, because it doesn't matter how good you are, how quick you can react to things, if multiple people stack dots on you then you're going to die.

Give magicka spamables and ults like stamina have (Onslaught, used to be DBoS, Dizzying etc.) and we can talk about balance. Everyone talks about sudden magicka dots, but nobody cares about poison injection, blood craze etc. On my death recaps they have same values as magicka dots but in addition to them I have 10k+ onslaughts (noCP), 5k dizzying etc.

What counterplay has 20k burst in 2-3 GCD covered with preaplied DoTs? Dude even I use on my magicka toons Onslaught because it hits 2-3 times harder than my magicka ults. Yesterday I have hit a guy with 14k onslaught (noCP) on a freaking magicka toon - totally balanced

If I would use dizzying, onslaught, executioner combo I would be able to wipe the floor with half of the Cyrodiil. Add to this things like subterranean assault of stamden, random dots and ult generation and you have no skill required build ready.

It's funny that most drama because of magicka DoTs is created here on forums while Cyrodiil is still filled with players that not only refuse to die to these DoTs but also dare to kill the casters! 0_o I know it's shocking.

Mag DK whip, Magplar jabs, Mag sorc frags, cu

Mayrael wrote: »

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

It’s very likely that bleed is with the master weapon, which you have to sacrifice a 5th trait for and earn them in the first place, and poison injection is an execute so it starts to ramp up in damage when you’re in execute range. It’s also coming from a stam player which often have lower max stat that their mag counterparts by several thousand or more and that ability scales with the highest max stat. Good try though.

He was using flurry so it was more likely Maelstrom DW, even considering it was morph with 33% less damage it would be more or less equal to blood craze. So deal with it, stam DoTs are on equal ground. If you want nerfs, nerf all of them, stop being biased kid like Delparis.

Vapirko

Mayrael wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

7 seconds of combat minimum, imagine being hit by 7 GCDs of spammabldes by two people with this high of offensive stats. You'd be dead nonetheless, dots are fine

One has counterplay, the other doesn't. Combat should not force you to just stack mitigation and healing to survive. Skill should play the biggest part in surviving, unfortunately that is not the case in this game, because it doesn't matter how good you are, how quick you can react to things, if multiple people stack dots on you then you're going to die.

Give magicka spamables and ults like stamina have (Onslaught, used to be DBoS, Dizzying etc.) and we can talk about balance. Everyone talks about sudden magicka dots, but nobody cares about poison injection, blood craze etc. On my death recaps they have same values as magicka dots but in addition to them I have 10k+ onslaughts (noCP), 5k dizzying etc.

What counterplay has 20k burst in 2-3 GCD covered with preaplied DoTs? Dude even I use on my magicka toons Onslaught because it hits 2-3 times harder than my magicka ults. Yesterday I have hit a guy with 14k onslaught (noCP) on a freaking magicka toon - totally balanced

If I would use dizzying, onslaught, executioner combo I would be able to wipe the floor with half of the Cyrodiil. Add to this things like subterranean assault of stamden, random dots and ult generation and you have no skill required build ready.

It's funny that most drama because of magicka DoTs is created here on forums while Cyrodiil is still filled with players that not only refuse to die to these DoTs but also dare to kill the casters! 0_o I know it's shocking.

Mag DK whip, Magplar jabs, Mag sorc frags, cu

Mayrael wrote: »

Same player - look at the damage difference. Soul trap as I get it from the tooltip scales of the highest stat so it doesnt matter are you playing stam or magicka. Yeah... Soul trap is completly OP while Blood Craze is completly fine LOL.

If we are up for nerfing dots, all dots should be nerfed, bleeds, poisons etc. included.



Edit:

Oh and that awesome hint:
"Have you tried resetting your router?" - amazing ZOS, seriously.

It’s very likely that bleed is with the master weapon, which you have to sacrifice a 5th trait for and earn them in the first place, and poison injection is an execute so it starts to ramp up in damage when you’re in execute range. It’s also coming from a stam player which often have lower max stat that their mag counterparts by several thousand or more and that ability scales with the highest max stat. Good try though.

He was using flurry so it was more likely Maelstrom DW, even considering it was morph with 33% less damage it would be more or less equal to blood craze. So deal with it, stam DoTs are on equal ground. If you want nerfs, nerf all of them, stop being biased kid like Delparis.

Nah no one would use vMA DW over Masters in PvP.