ESO = Entropy Soul(trap) Online

wheem_ESO

Galarthor wrote: »

Ofc the entire issue is more complex than the pure tooltip values. I just used them to illustrate my point to Emma about how the much larger damage dealt by DoTs when compared to other abilities matters, as DoTs almost always run their full course.

The loss of offensive capabilities remains the same though, as your opponents actual damage is also subject to mitigation (and Battle Spirit). Same is true for heals and shields btw.

Tooltip difference = 16k per DoT. With 2 DoTs that is 32k additional tooltip damage over 12 seconds. Battle Spirit cuts that in half to 16k. Those 16k are then subject mitigation which should on average be somewhere around 35%. This leaves an actual additional damage of 10.4k over.

Now it is time to factor in the crit (which I didn't in my original post for the sake of simplicity). A crit rate of 30% and a crit modifier of 70% on average are reasonable to assume. Of those 70%, 40% get mitigate by crit resitance. That leave an a crit multiplier of 30%. Tha bring us to (0.7*10.4k + 0.3*10.4k*1.3) = 11.3k over 12 seconds.

That is still 2 additional shields (given how shields got an additional damage taken multiplier in CP and are considerably weaker in non CP) or 2 HoTs. Which is not too far off from the original post. So the issue remains pretty much unchanged.

Lets take a look at some actual numbers taken from death recap screenshots I've taken in Battlegrounds since Scalebreaker's release:
1) Died to a Mag DK, and every single attack on the recap came from the same player:
x1 Burning Embers - 2,547
x1 Engulfing Flames - 3,098
x1 Molten Whip - 10,414
x3 Degeneration - 3,003
Death from Engulfing Flames - 682

2) Died to Stam Templar and Mag Sorcerer. Crystal Fragments + Structured Entropy were from the Sorc, Biting Jabs and Power of the light were from Stamina Templar:
x1 Crystal Fragments - 5,636
x4 Biting Jabs - 5,109
x4 Biting Jabs - 5,526
x6 Structured Entropy - 6,074
Death from Power of the Light - 5,517

3) Died to Stam DK, Magicka Templar, and Magicka Sorcerer. Take Flight, Rending Slashes, and Venomous Claw all came from Stam DK, while Structured Entropy was from the Magicka Templar, and the Magicka Sorcerer from a different team kill-stole me with Endless Fury:
x1 Take Flight - 6,743
x6 Structured Entropy - 6,571
x5 Rending Slashes - 6,558
x5 Venomous Claw - 8,730
Death from Endless Fury - 2,498

4) Died primarily to Stam Sorcerer, with 1 whip from a Mag DK, and a Structured Entropy from an unknown Magicka class on the third team.
x1 Dizzying Swing - 4,964
x6 Structured Entropy - 6,643
x7 Hurricane - 3,681
x1 Onslaught - 11,065
Death from Molten Whip - 3,166

The numbers provided above are pretty consistent themes, and not special cherry-picked screenshots to show the weakest DOTs and strongest burst. The only potential exception there is Onslaught, which tends to be closer to 6-9k instead of 11k. 'Course, I consider even those "lower" numbers to be pretty ridiculous, especially when one considers the low cost and gigantic, long duration buff to penetration it provides.

All things considered, Magicka DOTs in BGs pretty much always average out to right around 900 - 1,100 damage every 2 seconds. I have seen instances where Stamina DOTs hit for double that, and here are a few samples:
x5 Rending Slashes - 9,839
x4 Blood Craze - 9,092
x4 Rending Slashes - 8,617
x4 Werewolf Berserker Bleed - 7,974 (x5 Structured Entropy on the same screenshot for 4,547)

Maybe the Magicka DOTs are a problem for people trying to make highlight reels of them picking off zerglings in CP-enabled Cyrodiil, but in BGs with mostly decent-or-better players? Nah.

Lord-Otto

Major_Lag wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Desync, my friend, desync.

I'm well aware of the snipe desync bug.

But that won't help you much on a magicka build, because your snipes will be hitting for about 1k damage, and you will only have enough stamina to fire a few of them.

Not at all helpful, unless you are standing on the keep walls spamming snipe at the attackers

Yeah, uh, true. I wasn't talking about a snipe build on a mag toon. In that case you would be totally right. Imagine a stamblade with that build. Including Cloak. (^_-)

katorga

3) Died to Stam DK, Magicka Templar, and Magicka Sorcerer. Take Flight, Rending Slashes, and Venomous Claw all came from Stam DK, while Structured Entropy was from the Magicka Templar, and the Magicka Sorcerer from a different team kill-stole me with Endless Fury:
x1 Take Flight - 6,743
x6 Structured Entropy - 6,571
x5 Rending Slashes - 6,558
x5 Venomous Claw - 8,730
Death from Endless Fury - 2,498

Sweet steal.

Kartalin

I imagine kill-stealing magsorcs are meta in BGs with all the dots flying around. Haven’t hated myself enough to try it yet this update.

Also: RIP 1vX against anything besides complete noobs.

wheem_ESO

Kartalin wrote: »

I imagine kill-stealing magsorcs are meta in BGs with all the dots flying around. Haven’t hated myself enough to try it yet this update.

Also: RIP 1vX against anything besides complete noobs.

BGs are (still) dominated primarily by burst damage, and this is even more true when decent team compositions are involved.

I know my previous post was fairly long, and will get skipped over entirely by a lot of posters, but the short version is that Dizzying Swing, Jabs/Sweeps, Power of the Light, Crystal Frags, etc...will often do very similar damage in 1 second (or 1.1 in the case of Jabs/Sweeps) that the new Entropy or Soul Trap will do over their full duration.

FearlessOne_2014

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

I imagine kill-stealing magsorcs are meta in BGs with all the dots flying around. Haven’t hated myself enough to try it yet this update.

Also: RIP 1vX against anything besides complete noobs.

BGs are (still) dominated primarily by burst damage, and this is even more true when decent team compositions are involved.

I know my previous post was fairly long, and will get skipped over entirely by a lot of posters, but the short version is that Dizzying Swing, Jabs/Sweeps, Power of the Light, Crystal Frags, etc...will often do very similar damage in 1 second (or 1.1 in the case of Jabs/Sweeps) that the new Entropy or Soul Trap will do over their full duration.

I highly agree. But those in need of learning to play. Will cry a different story.

Kartalin

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

I imagine kill-stealing magsorcs are meta in BGs with all the dots flying around. Haven’t hated myself enough to try it yet this update.

Also: RIP 1vX against anything besides complete noobs.

BGs are (still) dominated primarily by burst damage, and this is even more true when decent team compositions are involved.

I know my previous post was fairly long, and will get skipped over entirely by a lot of posters, but the short version is that Dizzying Swing, Jabs/Sweeps, Power of the Light, Crystal Frags, etc...will often do very similar damage in 1 second (or 1.1 in the case of Jabs/Sweeps) that the new Entropy or Soul Trap will do over their full duration.

Good points. Even as a magplar this dot nonsense in Cyrodiil is frustrating, but burst is easier to understand and work with.

Apparently Ritual is broken now or something but eventually I do want to see what’s up with bgs and get back into them.

Crixus8000

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

EtTuBrutus

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

My rending slashes hit a guy for 13.6k in 4 ticks. That's stronger than 3 magicka dots ticking for 4 occurrences. 1 skill. Better than 4. Onslaught is a joke in terms of balance.

FearlessOne_2014

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

And no trace of purge was used that day.

Lord-Otto

Onslaught AND DoTs are BS. It's a waste of energy to argue which one is worse.
Purge is NOT a solution. Too expensive, it takes a slot (dodge doesn't) and it serves pretty much no other use outside of purging those DoTs. Meaning slotting another DoT is always better than slotting Purge. There are reasons why people never slotted Purge to combat certain metas. That skill is for... well, support in an organized group. Nothing more.

Mayrael

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

7 seconds of combat minimum, imagine being hit by 7 GCDs of spammabldes by two people with this high of offensive stats. You'd be dead nonetheless, dots are fine

One has counterplay, the other doesn't. Combat should not force you to just stack mitigation and healing to survive. Skill should play the biggest part in surviving, unfortunately that is not the case in this game, because it doesn't matter how good you are, how quick you can react to things, if multiple people stack dots on you then you're going to die.

Give magicka spamables and ults like stamina have (Onslaught, used to be DBoS, Dizzying etc.) and we can talk about balance. Everyone talks about sudden magicka dots, but nobody cares about poison injection, blood craze etc. On my death recaps they have same values as magicka dots but in addition to them I have 10k+ onslaughts (noCP), 5k dizzying etc.

What counterplay has 20k burst in 2-3 GCD covered with preaplied DoTs? Dude even I use on my magicka toons Onslaught because it hits 2-3 times harder than my magicka ults. Yesterday I have hit a guy with 14k onslaught (noCP) on a freaking magicka toon - totally balanced

If I would use dizzying, onslaught, executioner combo I would be able to wipe the floor with half of the Cyrodiil. Add to this things like subterranean assault of stamden, random dots and ult generation and you have no skill required build ready.

It's funny that most drama because of magicka DoTs is created here on forums while Cyrodiil is still filled with players that not only refuse to die to these DoTs but also dare to kill the casters! 0_o I know it's shocking.

Qbiken

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

After watching the videos on your YouTube where you play ESO, I can say that you're nowhere near a position to talk about game balance, even less telling people to "L2P"

Crixus8000

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

Lol, purging 3 dots for 5.6k magicka is just making the fight harder for yourself. No one uses this skill because it's unrealistically expensive and 3 dots are nothing in cyro when you have a flood of negetive affects on you. And as a stam char I can cast it once, while the dots will be applied right away again.

And the onlsaught rotation will deal nothing if you block or los it, but yes it is still gamebreaking op. But dots have 0 counterplay unless you have cloak or you're a magplar.

Mayrael wrote: »

Give magicka spamables and ults like stamina have (Onslaught, used to be DBoS, Dizzying etc.) and we can talk about balance. Everyone talks about sudden magicka dots, but nobody cares about poison injection, blood craze etc. On my death recaps they have same values as magicka dots but in addition to them I have 10k+ onslaughts (noCP), 5k dizzying etc.

What counterplay has 20k burst in 2-3 GCD covered with preaplied DoTs? Dude even I use on my magicka toons Onslaught because it hits 2-3 times harder than my magicka ults. Yesterday I have hit a guy with 14k onslaught (noCP) on a freaking magicka toon - totally balanced

If I would use dizzying, onslaught, executioner combo I would be able to wipe the floor with half of the Cyrodiil. Add to this things like subterranean assault of stamden, random dots and ult generation and you have no skill required build ready.

It's funny that most drama because of magicka DoTs is created here on forums while Cyrodiil is still filled with players that not only refuse to die to these DoTs but also dare to kill the casters! 0_o I know it's shocking.

I never said stamina dots weren't op. I hate the idea of dots in general, because again they have 0 counterplay and that is bad game design. I don't even have any dots on my build.

But tbh the burst of onslaught is what everyone gets this patch because 99% of people in this game seem to hate tanky builds, well now no one is tanky I guess...

All the complaints from people lacking skill to kill others and now we have hardly any survivability while both burst of stam and dots in general is at insane levels.

TriangularChicken

Qbiken wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

After watching the videos on your YouTube where you play ESO, I can say that you're nowhere near a position to talk about game balance, even less telling people to "L2P"

Thanks for saying that, I have the same feeling. I guess people on forums have bad self perception when they think they are heroes, but after watching their videos you can clearly see they are average at best...
The thing is that ZOS is listening to people that have no clue...might be better if they would not listen to the forums at all.

..and the problem remains, ranged DoTs (stamina and magicka) are way too powerful at the moment, if you can't see that you clearly zerg surf all day long (which is fine if you're a noob, but don't come on forums and say DoTs are fine...cause that way you're destroying solo and small scale gameplay)

BlackMadara

DoTs deal damage now. They allow an alternate, viable playstyle other than the traditional burst combos. They still aren't as effective in pvp as burst however. Nobody with skill is going to die to only DoTs. A combination of DoTs and spammable pressure can more easily secure kills than in the past, which is the traditional playstyle of the DK class.

The main counter to DoTs are HoTs. One can use defensive mechanics to decrease the effectiveness of DoTs and pseudo increase the effectiveness of HoTs. Mitigation is one example. Also, the reduction of availability of defile means that there are less counters for healing. Use the mechanics available to you to survive. If people are using multiple DoTs, place a HoT or 2 on your bar.

A final note is to address the statements people ate making that magicka DoTs are stronger than stamina variants. This is false. All single target DoTs deal the same dps with no passives. Any direct damage in the skill is calculated into that dps. So if skill A does 10k damage over 10s, 1k damage ticks, and skill B does 2k damage instantly and 8k over 10s, 800 damage ticks, they will both deal the same amount of damage over their duration. Most stamina based DoTs have a direct damage component, so they seem weaker. They are not. Soul trap and entropy are actually rather weak when looking at their secondary effects. I'd argue that burning embers, venomous claw, poison injection, and blood craze are much stronger in application

Chufu

I still don't enjoy this new DOT-rotation. Especially I still don't understand the sense of using the soul trap now. I mean, of course it's doing so much damage at the moment, so everyone is putting it on the bar.... but still... I miss my Caltrops!

For me the nicest one was still the Heavy-Attack-Rotation, because I am still breaking my fingers while trying to do the most DPS in a trial and at the end I am ending with 60k although others can do 70k or more. This whole light-attack-is-the-best thing is not really my thing. At least with the Heavy-Attack-Rotation you could also be a good DD even without breaking your fingers in this game (and it's still more enjoyable than just spamming buttons like in other games).

I mean it's nice for ESO or ZeniMax to try something new, definetely. I just don't know if other perspectives would be better.

jadarock

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

The problem is every one of those mag dots can be applied over and over again from a safe distance.
I play in cyrodiil on a magcro and cannot sustain the amount of purging/cleansing that is necessary
They are reapplied instantaneously no cool down no cast time no tell tale sound so you can avoid it nothing. So now instead of looking for a rogue sniper or two they buff mag to pew pew you from range over and over till you are empty on resources smdh zos

EtTuBrutus

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

FearlessOne_2014

jadarock wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

The problem is every one of those mag dots can be applied over and over again from a safe distance.
I play in cyrodiil on a magcro and cannot sustain the amount of purging/cleansing that is necessary
They are reapplied instantaneously no cool down no cast time no tell tale sound so you can avoid it nothing. So now instead of looking for a rogue sniper or two they buff mag to pew pew you from range over and over till you are empty on resources smdh zos

Outside of Sorc and Nightblade, is there really a thing as safe distance in ESO. Where we have very cheap spammable Gap Closer. No there is not. If you are magicka and not a sorc or nightblade you will be 2hered to death before your DoTs kill that guys spamming direct damage with buggy CCs at you.

So what you are a saying is. That it's all fine and dandy long is it's not magicka. Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

FearlessOne_2014

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

No all it turns out to be is pure bias against inferior specs. With not a single care of balance.

jadarock

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

jadarock wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Crixus8000 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

If one person hits you with Onslaught build rotation you are more than likely going to die. But that's more balanced than DoTs Am I Right?

I said onslaught was broken in the first place. No one needed to test that to see it was op, but yes I still think it's better than dots, because it might be op but it still has actual counterplay. There are choices you can make during a fight to counter this, but nothing you can do about dots other than stack healing and mitigation and that has nothing to do with skill and just makes for unhealthy gameplay.

Since you all are unaware. I'll endeavor to educate you all. There is a skill in the alliance war tree called Purge. It is expensive, but so is dodge roll and break free. Any class can slot Purge. You should try it.

Again armed with Purge. That DoT rotation will only deal a faction of the damage of a Onslaught build rotation will in 1 to 3 global cooldowns.

The problem is every one of those mag dots can be applied over and over again from a safe distance.
I play in cyrodiil on a magcro and cannot sustain the amount of purging/cleansing that is necessary
They are reapplied instantaneously no cool down no cast time no tell tale sound so you can avoid it nothing. So now instead of looking for a rogue sniper or two they buff mag to pew pew you from range over and over till you are empty on resources smdh zos

Outside of Sorc and Nightblade, is there really a thing as safe distance in ESO. Where we have very cheap spammable Gap Closer. No there is not. If you are magicka and not a sorc or nightblade you will be 2hered to death before your DoTs kill that guys spamming direct damage with buggy CCs at you.

So what you are a saying is. That it's all fine and dandy long is it's not magicka. Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lol I have 5 toons and only 1 is stam nice try though bud..
I play on a support build mag cro with plenty of heals and a cleanse on each bar....
I'm saying spending 30k mag to cleanse and heal through these dots is ridiculous. I cant fight the dizzy swing spammers in my face because I have to keep cleansing the dots or they'll do 6-10k dmg and I'm at or near cap on my resistances as well🤨

Insco851

I see lots of people in here saying burst combos have no counter... Block, LOS, Hard CC, Soft CC, Snare, Speed, Dodge roll, even purge kills some burst combos such as curse and Potl.

Dots- biggest issue if you don’t have a cleanse, the pressure from multiple dots doesn’t allow you to flip the fight. Always on the defense trying to outheal dots as well as the same burst pressure from before. You can’t stun them and flip, you can’t CC and LOS to reset. Purge or cry, but this is somehow supposed to be more skill?

Lots of people moaned about bleeds and the dot stacking bleed builds... not one person said “slot purge noob” - the dots available now are on par to everyone being a bleed build where once everything gets ticking, you die.

But hey, L2P.

Waffennacht

You guys aren't saying that it's ok to nerf abilities magicka necromancers use because they're already bad at PvP right?

That would be silly.

That would like saying classes could use a buff because they're already better than others.

DarkGottbeard

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Stop saying dots have no counterplay. They do.

Stop saying they can be safely applied at range. That's only true for zerging in which case, join a group with heals and support. If you're melee in a small scale fight and someone can stay safely at range l2p.

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

wheem_ESO

Insco851 wrote: »

Lots of people moaned about bleeds and the dot stacking bleed builds... not one person said “slot purge noob” - the dots available now are on par to everyone being a bleed build where once everything gets ticking, you die.

But hey, L2P.

Actually, I did see people suggesting purge as a counter to bleed builds. And the current non-class specific DOTs for Magicka are not on par with bleeds (even the current version of Rending Slashes and WW Bleed). Entropy and Soul Trap essentially always average out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds, while pre-Scalebreaker Rending Slashes + both proc bleeds would generally be around 1.6k - 2k every 2 seconds (and Rending still does that sort of damage, but the procs are justifiably weaker than they were before).

Entropy and Soul Trap certainly aren't "nothing" right now, but their effectiveness in small group fights in no-CP BGs is grossly exaggerated. And I'd prefer that my class not be utterly ruined because a certain chunk of the population wants to feel like pros by potato mashing in Cyrodiil, which gets countered by masses of players DOT-spamming them. If Magicka Necromancers get some other offensive tools that can make/keep them relevant after DOT nerfs, fine. But even if that happens, Entropy needs to remain in the same ballpark of usefulness as Rally/Forward Momentum; the pre-Scalebreaker gap was unacceptable, and went on for way too long.

Insco851

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lots of people moaned about bleeds and the dot stacking bleed builds... not one person said “slot purge noob” - the dots available now are on par to everyone being a bleed build where once everything gets ticking, you die.

But hey, L2P.

Actually, I did see people suggesting purge as a counter to bleed builds. And the current non-class specific DOTs for Magicka are not on par with bleeds (even the current version of Rending Slashes and WW Bleed). Entropy and Soul Trap essentially always average out to ~1k damage every 2 seconds, while pre-Scalebreaker Rending Slashes + both proc bleeds would generally be around 1.6k - 2k every 2 seconds (and Rending still does that sort of damage, but the procs are justifiably weaker than they were before).

Entropy and Soul Trap certainly aren't "nothing" right now, but their effectiveness in small group fights in no-CP BGs is grossly exaggerated. And I'd prefer that my class not be utterly ruined because a certain chunk of the population wants to feel like pros by potato mashing in Cyrodiil, which gets countered by masses of players DOT-spamming them. If Magicka Necromancers get some other offensive tools that can make/keep them relevant after DOT nerfs, fine. But even if that happens, Entropy needs to remain in the same ballpark of usefulness as Rally/Forward Momentum; the pre-Scalebreaker gap was unacceptable, and went on for way too long.

I’m playing magnecro too but these dots aren’t the answer. Fixing their buggy mechanics would be a start. Necros issue for me is bar space and reliable CC.

FearlessOne_2014

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

Quit whining and learn to build in the current META and slot Purge. If some of us can brush off DoTs like it's nothing and continue with our ~Time on Target~ to secure the kill. Then the problem is not a balance issue. But a stubbornness ~I'm not going to change my build~ issue

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

This is a bold face lie. Anybody who turns their attention to the Alliance War Support tree can see it. All classes have equal access to Purge! Just like all classes have equal access to Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block!

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

You are right DoTs are not balanced right now. They are weak in terms of potency to finish off your target 1 on 1. A burst rotation from stealth can end a engagement in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. Well before the subject have time to react and use counterplay.

DoTs on the other hand either take 7 or more Global Cooldowns or multiple subjects betting on the target to secure the kill. Which gives the target massive amount of time to initiate counterplay and turn the fight in their favor. Should the target have a proper build for the current META.

All and all Direct Burst damage 1 v 1 will do in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. The work that magicka DoTs can do in 7 or more Global Cooldowns. So yes there is a imbalance here.

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

Yup this is the only point from you I can agree with. Sweeping META shifts like this is a bad. There should be balancing. However there should not be complete destrustion of builds and playstyles to make room for the next set. I'd personally would like it, if every build and playstyle is viable.

DarkGottbeard

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Dots dont have counterplay.

Saying HoTs are the counterplay to DoTs is a joke. That's like saying that the counterplay to onslaught is breath of life or life giver. Healing and damage have always been on a see-saw with each other. That is not "counterplay", thats just regular "play".

Quit whining and learn to build in the current META and slot Purge. If some of us can brush off DoTs like it's nothing and continue with our ~Time on Target~ to secure the kill. Then the problem is not a balance issue. But a stubbornness ~I'm not going to change my build~ issue

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

The in game counterplay to dots is supposed to be purge (cleansing, dispel, ect.). The purge mechanics in this game are horribly designed and do not have equal opportunity access. To deny this is to show your bias.

This is a bold face lie. Anybody who turns their attention to the Alliance War Support tree can see it. All classes have equal access to Purge! Just like all classes have equal access to Dodge Roll, Break Free, and Block!

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

Furthermore, dots have no balance as well as having no counterplay. Their cost is low; their damage is high; their skill to apply is very low; their damage can not be blocked once applied; their damage can not be dodged once applied; their damage can not be line of sighted once applied; their damage is hard and costly to get rid of once applied; the majority of DoTs maintain a ranged advantage; their access is very open (not hard to run 3-5 dots per build before adding in things like proc sets and poisons and the high end for total dots off one build is somewhere around 14 dots).

You are right DoTs are not balanced right now. They are weak in terms of potency to finish off your target 1 on 1. A burst rotation from stealth can end a engagement in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. Well before the subject have time to react and use counterplay.

DoTs on the other hand either take 7 or more Global Cooldowns or multiple subjects betting on the target to secure the kill. Which gives the target massive amount of time to initiate counterplay and turn the fight in their favor. Should the target have a proper build for the current META.

All and all Direct Burst damage 1 v 1 will do in 1 to 3 Global Cooldowns. The work that magicka DoTs can do in 7 or more Global Cooldowns. So yes there is a imbalance here.

DarkGottbeard wrote: »

There is a reason the majority of this game sells out and shifts wholesale to meta's like proc sets and dot stacks and over-tuned true damage. And when a population shifts like that on an already weak system (or rather because of a weak system) there is a CRITICAL FAILURE of said system. That is what we have here.

Yup this is the only point from you I can agree with. Sweeping META shifts like this is a bad. There should be balancing. However there should not be complete destrustion of builds and playstyles to make room for the next set. I'd personally would like it, if every build and playstyle is viable.

TIL a well reasoned, eloquent addition to a debate is in fact "whining".

My arguments are detached from my personal performance or preference atm. I am doing fine this patch in terms of hollow measurable success (i.e. great K/D ratio, great ap per hour, great BG damage and K/D/A). So your attempt at a personal slight doesn't really help your argument.

You can suggest support skill lines purge as a universal counter to dots, however you haven't addressed that it is a terrible and ineffective skill. Also, in terms of performance, there is a huge gap between the power of the generic purge and class cleanses. On top of that, it is very cost inefficient for stam builds and tanks, therefore it can't be universal.

You can try to make a comparison between a NB ganker and a overblown meta of dot spammers, but that is kind of ridiculous. You can stop a NB ganker just by having the right amount of health. You can stop them by blocking for 1/10th of a second. You can counterplay NBs just by having enough impen. You can counterplay them with detect pots, time stop, overwhelming surge, caltrops, hurricane, spiked armor, mark target, eclipse, ritual of retribution, radiant mage light, steel tornado, proper use of dodge roll, fast reaction time, add ons, the list goes on forever. There is both passive low skill counters all the way to direct skill vs skill match up counters to that archetypal playstyle.

If you truly want build diversity to reign supreme, as you claim, you should want dots to be properly balanced. Sweeping meta's are based on poorly designed systems that hand out an imbalance of power. The only way to ensure that "every build and playstyle is viable" is to clear out that imbalance by fixing the poorly designed system.

If you are worried about the complete destruction of dots as a playstyle then that is not an issue of whether or not we SHOULD balance dots, that is an issue of whether or not you think this development team is CAPABLE of properly balancing dots. And that is an entirely different discussion.