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The light attack meta
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭at the end of the day the weaving system allows for dps that can be used to avoid mechanics. Its no secret that the game is alot easier and far more simplified if you have extreme dps
so if your in a stacked out group your literally not playing the same game.
my thinking is that a macro will give the best dps so i imagine thats the path eventually used as that system can be very hard on the hands. People are lazy after all.
so the push for dps is really a push to avoid playing the game as intended. Doesnt seem worthwhile and it is very unhealthy for the game.
Weaving is a bug introduced by Zenimax, cannot be fixed so said was intended, players use third party software to automaticaly weave which is against ToS.
Great ...
lmao are you actually dense?
You don't need a macro to properly weave, you guys are just making stuff up because your arguments have zero solid foundations at this point.
Yes, you don't need it, but it doesn't mean you can't do it and that people don't do it. And guess what? There are a lot of guys that do it.
I don't do it, and despite I can weave perfectly when my ping is 200 or lower, most of the time I can't do it well since my average ping goes up to 350 and I get stucked into medium weave animation.
That sucks.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
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Used the wrong method with the wrong technique4 -
Heatnix90✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are a lot of guys that do it.
How do you know this? Like how are you able to tell if someone is using a macro to weave or not? Or are you also making stuff up to back up your points?5 -
James-Wayne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reduce light attack damage, increase skill damage (Lowering the ceiling, Raising the Floor) = What ZOS wants.
Problem solved for everyone!PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NA | @Aussie-Elders
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭James-Wayne wrote: »Reduce light attack damage, increase skill damage (Lowering the ceiling, Raising the Floor) = What ZOS wants.
Problem solved for everyone!
Unfortunately that will work but not like you think. While light attacks may be the highest dmg skill represented on a parse you are neglecting the animation cancel effect which is hidden but increases the overall dmg of all your skills since they are all firing faster than would be otherwise possible.
this is how you can go from 25k to 50k+ but your parse show light attacks only doing ~20% more dmg.
im sure though that doubling or tripling the server load has no effect on your and others players experience.....
zos when are you going to fix performance? lol.
or how about?
zos why are healers useless....
or how about
zos why is heavy armor the best in pvp....
or how about
a trial culture that specializes in both telling everyone else to learn to play while doing just that allows them to skip playing for the most part by skipping everything zos designed into it. Its madness.
its obvious to anyone who takes a look at it. This mechanic, which has absolutely no mechanical deterrent to automation, effects every other part of the game in a large negative way.
Edited by Rungar on August 9, 2019 12:23PMOld Rungar always gives what's needed.
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peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This topic is interesting, although it seems like it may be conflating different likes and dislikes.
As for me, I do personally find the LA meta a) kinda boring and b) fairly painful to my hand, which is why I mostly leave others to it and stick with healing and my HA petsorc. It is a good thing ZOS supports multiple playstyles and is consistently making changes to give us fun options along these lines.... wait.... *reads upcoming patch notes* .... :'(
3 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭f047ys3v3n wrote: »For what is is worth, my internet / my server connection is not currently good enough for light attacks in actual raid situations. It did a bit better in the past though it was never great and currently I get something like 250 of what you might call medium attacks for around 20 light attacks in an actual fight. It doesn't matter how quickly and lightly I tap the key the attacks will register as "heavy". This is a pretty common problem for players to have though the ratio I get is a bit worse than most. The issue is that the window for a "light" is super small, .2 seconds charge time. Of course, when the game was designed this did not matter as attacks charged more powerfully bit by bit. Now you get a huge drop after the light though. This drop exists all the way until you get to the full heavy where you get resources. Ironically, you then get a damage jump as well as a resource return. This is because of how ZOS has mucked about in the code from the original attack scaling. They:
1) First shortened full heavy attacks but did not decrease their power. This created a bump in the otherwise linear charge time / power relationship.
2) Next wanted to add resource return but only at fully charged time. They actually created a new type of attack for this, the fully charged heavy. It shows up as a heavy in your add ons but the server registers it as a different kind of attack. This was when they changed all the heavy attack proc sets to only proc on fully heavy, the new and different type of attack.
3) Last was the real fun. They wanted to boost LA attack damage probably for reasons of ceiling floor issues and decided to nerf HA damage to "compensate" for the resource return but more likely to address the perceived problem of heavy attack builds being perceived as too powerful for how easy they were to play. Evidently, this was not the same group of devs that had done the other changes because they only nerfed medium attack damage and not the new, fully HA category they had created and which actually gave resources back. This left this big trough of crappy medium attacks that do less damage and also return no resources. These comprise the vast majority of all possible attack durations .2-1.7 seconds on a flame staff. Do to ping issues and server lag probably most folks attacks fall in this range. Ironically, this exacerbated rather than helped the floor / ceiling issues. It also encouraged macro use as many have had better luck macroing a LA to each skill cast rather than trying to feather the buttons. No one is really sure why this works. You would think the server would see things you did by hand the same as those done with a macro but it is not actually so either in this case or in the case of many of those PVP burst builds you encounter.
I should also note that any channeling weapons (resto and shock staffs) actually have a gap between .2 and .4 seconds where they play the animation of an attack but do 0 damage leading players to think they have attacked when they have not. Most players should never use these weapons as offensive weapons as they will loose a ton of damage from this bug. Pointing out this bug to ZOS years ago has not prompted any fix.
So yea, their basic LA, HA, FHA system is totally broken and has been for years. I always hope for a fix, and never get one. I am foolish enough to hope this is one of the things they intend to fix with their upcoming focus on basic underlying game systems. It remains #2 behind addressing cheating when it comes to my list of wishes.
What a page of history we have here. It is as it happened
One of the bigs problems with LA weave is that it is the only way to get high dmg, on a game that promotes itself as "play as you want". So at the end it is "play as you want but make sure to use LA"
I wish we could get medium weaves again, even if they don't give resources.
You're really stretching the meaning of "play as you want" mantra. Besides, heavy attack builds are still a things.3 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭James-Wayne wrote: »Reduce light attack damage, increase skill damage (Lowering the ceiling, Raising the Floor) = What ZOS wants.
Problem solved for everyone!
Unfortunately that will work but not like you think. While light attacks may be the highest dmg skill represented on a parse you are neglecting the animation cancel effect which is hidden but increases the overall dmg of all your skills since they are all firing faster than would be otherwise possible.
this is how you can go from 25k to 50k+ but your parse show light attacks only doing ~20% more dmg.
talking BS
Edited by Delparis on August 9, 2019 4:18PM0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are a lot of guys that do it.
How do you know this? Like how are you able to tell if someone is using a macro to weave or not? Or are you also making stuff up to back up your points?
It has been commented and demostrated through videos. It doesn't need to be a complex macro, just one that makes a left click after each skill.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
crazywolfpusher✭✭✭There should be a menu option that allows weaving automatically, for example toggle->light attack before cast skils yes/no this will not solve the ping and fps disparety but many old hands will be grateful.
Not to mention this can be done with a very simple script/macro.
Animation canceling for LA is kinda ok, i dont like but ok, however animation cancel via bar swapping is a terrible design.
Why even spend time and paying people to create beautiful animations if players are encourage to not see them.
If im right, this design was meant to raise the skill cap between people, who is good or bad at the game but in my opinion for rpg games what should do the difference is knowledge and decision making. There are tons of things you have to know in order to be good at the game, and bar swaping/animation cancel to achieve higher numbers and put content behind this flag feels wrong.
Edited by crazywolfpusher on August 9, 2019 5:19PM4 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmao....so much wining and excuses. Played this game since beta and until a year ago on a potato PC that averaged 20 fps in trials, sometimes lower. Did plenty of score pushes and posted good parses. Yes lag sucks, but you can definitely compete with it. Will you compete with Hodor parses? Probably not, but you will be competitive. As for LA weaving if you thi k that's bad, you arent aware if the new must - bash weaving. That's a lot harder and has to be practiced. Do you need it to clear? Absolutely not. Do you need it to post top parses - yeah. In this game, the amazing part is that you dont HAVE TO do anything to clear, but if you WANT to be the best you will HAVE TO put in work.7 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Lmao....so much wining and excuses. Played this game since beta and until a year ago on a potato PC that averaged 20 fps in trials, sometimes lower. Did plenty of score pushes and posted good parses. Yes lag sucks, but you can definitely compete with it. Will you compete with Hodor parses? Probably not, but you will be competitive. As for LA weaving if you thi k that's bad, you arent aware if the new must - bash weaving. That's a lot harder and has to be practiced. Do you need it to clear? Absolutely not. Do you need it to post top parses - yeah. In this game, the amazing part is that you dont HAVE TO do anything to clear, but if you WANT to be the best you will HAVE TO put in work.
We know about this bash after skill
Players added that to their macros with a timer after a skill
[Edit to remove misinformation]Edited by [Deleted User] on August 11, 2019 1:16AM0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Lmao....so much wining and excuses. Played this game since beta and until a year ago on a potato PC that averaged 20 fps in trials, sometimes lower. Did plenty of score pushes and posted good parses. Yes lag sucks, but you can definitely compete with it. Will you compete with Hodor parses? Probably not, but you will be competitive. As for LA weaving if you thi k that's bad, you arent aware if the new must - bash weaving. That's a lot harder and has to be practiced. Do you need it to clear? Absolutely not. Do you need it to post top parses - yeah. In this game, the amazing part is that you dont HAVE TO do anything to clear, but if you WANT to be the best you will HAVE TO put in work.
We know about this bash after skill
Players added that to their macros with a timer after a skill
Lmao the classic all good players use macros. Noone uses these macros in endgame, you just have a hard time coming to terms that some players are just naturally much better at executing their rotation than you...Edited by [Deleted User] on August 11, 2019 1:17AM11 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Lmao....so much wining and excuses. Played this game since beta and until a year ago on a potato PC that averaged 20 fps in trials, sometimes lower. Did plenty of score pushes and posted good parses. Yes lag sucks, but you can definitely compete with it. Will you compete with Hodor parses? Probably not, but you will be competitive. As for LA weaving if you thi k that's bad, you arent aware if the new must - bash weaving. That's a lot harder and has to be practiced. Do you need it to clear? Absolutely not. Do you need it to post top parses - yeah. In this game, the amazing part is that you dont HAVE TO do anything to clear, but if you WANT to be the best you will HAVE TO put in work.
We know about this bash after skill
Players added that to their macros with a timer after a skill
Lmao the classic all good players use macros. Noone uses these macros in endgame, you just have a hard time coming to terms that some players are just naturally much better at executing their rotation than you...
Because they spent a lot of time practicing...0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭When its technically impossible or unfeasable then ill believe it.
Your words mean nothing.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Heatnix90✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Lol, ZOS has continously been lowering the skill ceiling in this game since Summerset to the point where now the floor and the ceiling are at the same level. If anything it's time for them to raise the ceiling again.James-Wayne wrote: »Reduce light attack damage, increase skill damage (Lowering the ceiling, Raising the Floor) = What ZOS wants.
Problem solved for everyone!
And this is a problem how? Why shouldn't people who put time and effort into improving be rewarded with high dps/titles/WRs?hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Lmao....so much wining and excuses. Played this game since beta and until a year ago on a potato PC that averaged 20 fps in trials, sometimes lower. Did plenty of score pushes and posted good parses. Yes lag sucks, but you can definitely compete with it. Will you compete with Hodor parses? Probably not, but you will be competitive. As for LA weaving if you thi k that's bad, you arent aware if the new must - bash weaving. That's a lot harder and has to be practiced. Do you need it to clear? Absolutely not. Do you need it to post top parses - yeah. In this game, the amazing part is that you dont HAVE TO do anything to clear, but if you WANT to be the best you will HAVE TO put in work.
We know about this bash after skill
Players added that to their macros with a timer after a skill
Lmao the classic all good players use macros. Noone uses these macros in endgame, you just have a hard time coming to terms that some players are just naturally much better at executing their rotation than you...
Because they spent a lot of time practicing...
3 -
DyingIsEasy✭✭✭@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.
The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done
Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.
This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.7 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭DyingIsEasy wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.
The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done
Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.
This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.
Hmm....can you link the log?0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭DyingIsEasy wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.
The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done
Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.
This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.
you didn't compare the same LA+skill in between time for your first example.
Also waiting time between LA and skill may vary to better lure, thus a macro is still used1 -
DyingIsEasy✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Hmm....can you link the log?
Link is in my original comment.
I am using the "Casts" Tab in the "Events" view and then i select one of the players.
Here is the complete Link:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=casts&view=events&source=4
You will see that there are phases where his weaving is as inconsistent as you would expect and then there are phases where there is consistently no delay for 3+ casts.0 -
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭DyingIsEasy wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Hmm....can you link the log?
Link is in my original comment.
I am using the "Casts" Tab in the "Events" view and then i select one of the players.
Here is the complete Link:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=casts&view=events&source=4
You will see that there are phases where his weaving is as inconsistent as you would expect and then there are phases where there is consistently no delay for 3+ casts.
I looked over my logs and I have many of instances where LA and skill hit at the same time3 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭
Looks like even hodor got some macro users in their trial HM groupDyingIsEasy wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Hmm....can you link the log?
Link is in my original comment.
I am using the "Casts" Tab in the "Events" view and then i select one of the players.
Here is the complete Link:
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=casts&view=events&source=4
You will see that there are phases where his weaving is as inconsistent as you would expect and then there are phases where there is consistently no delay for 3+ casts.1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭youll never know
those timestamps, unless im mistaken, are when you complete an action. The weird times mean nothing as do the random times because you have to wait for the server to respond.
clearly when things are registering at the same time its because you has server lag and it somehow lumped them together.
its likely impossible to know who macros and who dont based on the log because the server itself is a random element.
doesnt prove anything.
zos needs to abandon this kind of gameplay.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
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Asmael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just checked my own ESOlogs for Yolnakhriin, which is pretty much a "stack and burn" kind of fight. I am getting the same thing:
I didn't really bother to scroll through the entire fight to see if I had a big series of perfectly aligned timers, but you get the point. That feels more like a limitation of ESOLogs (or the game itself).
Unless I am using macros without being aware of it.PC EU - Zahraji of the Void, aka "Kitty", the fluffiest salmon genocider in town.
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aetherial_heavenn✭✭✭✭✭
Thanks for sharing this video
I hope you see those 21% light attack
I hope you understand that it is fine. What you're proposing is only for people who can't light attack properly so they don't fall behind in dps.
Thanks for sharing this video
I hope you see those 21% light attack
I hope you understand that it is fine. What you're proposing is only for people who can't light attack properly so they don't fall behind in dps.
It is not a L2P issue for many people.
FYI, It is very hard to LA weave with stupid high ping. I liked ESO combat because it didn't used to be twitchy or repuire low latency to be effective. It does now. I have no problem with weaving buffing DPS by a small margin for the low latency mini maxers but for half the planet LA weaving is difficult due to latency/ping issues. It counts too much towards overall dps imo.
idea of buffing LA's was to make it easy for players who knew little about skill combos and passives etc to get decent DPS when starting out(raise the floor) Instead all it has done is make players who know their skills and gear suffer a 20% DPS loss if they have bad latency. ie it rewards left click warriors not players who know how to play.Quoted for truth
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Protossyder✭✭✭✭There are a lot of guys that do it.
How do you know this? Like how are you able to tell if someone is using a macro to weave or not? Or are you also making stuff up to back up your points?
It has been commented and demostrated through videos. It doesn't need to be a complex macro, just one that makes a left click after each skill.
After? You obviously have no idea about weaving. You do a LA before each skill to cancel the light attack's animation. And the skill's animation can be either canceled by blocking or (more efficiently) by bar swapping...Characters worth mentioning:Daedrós - Magicka DK - Altmer - PvE & PvP - Emperor - IR - GH - TTTArenas: vDSA (~46k) - vMA (~586k)
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xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DyingIsEasy wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.
The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done
Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.
This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.
you didn't compare the same LA+skill in between time for your first example.
Also waiting time between LA and skill may vary to better lure, thus a macro is still used
If you are saying that mashi or ron are using macros, I dont know how to say it. you are so into your OPINION that you end up delusional. These examples are absolute top players. They dont macro weaving.
Macroing it will always cause a disadvantage because a tiny fluctuation of ping may break it and messes your whole rotation up.
I dont know what to say, other than you guys are something else. A player is better than you because of practicing makes them macro users? Jesus Christ.
These players play since day one of early start. And I played a fair share of time together with "godmancer" there. There is no macros involved. Just fingers, a mouse and a keyboard. And well, player skill.Edited by xMovingTarget on August 12, 2019 11:46AM7 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Atm LA is doing too much dps (about 25% of the parse). This isn't good as LA do much more dmg than some skills (spammable ones).
I think this is game breaking as LA should be included in the rotation only to get ressources back and not do that much dmg.
I propose those change:- Decrease LA dmg with all weapons by 75%
- Make LA generate ressources per hit (100 stamina or magicka)
- Increase the HA dmg by 30% and ressources gained by 10% to compensate the loss in dps from LA and make a place for HA in the rotation.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
nerf yes , 75% no. u want to kill <50 players?
buff heavy, mm... ok... but u know now heavy already pretty darn strong?
make it 30% stronger and ull get a "nerf HA!" threads in a couple of weeks.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber1 -
BooPerScOOper✭✭✭xMovingTarget wrote: »DyingIsEasy wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.
The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done
Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.
This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.
you didn't compare the same LA+skill in between time for your first example.
Also waiting time between LA and skill may vary to better lure, thus a macro is still used
If you are saying that mashi or ron are using macros, I dont know how to say it. you are so into your OPINION that you end up delusional. These examples are absolute top players. They dont macro weaving.
Macroing it will always cause a disadvantage because a tiny fluctuation of ping may break it and messes your whole rotation up.
I dont know what to say, other than you guys are something else. A player is better than you because of practicing makes them macro users? Jesus Christ.
These players play since day one of early start. And I played a fair share of time together with "godmancer" there. There is no macros involved. Just fingers, a mouse and a keyboard. And well, player skill.
I could not have said it better myself..0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mho25B63I
