The light attack meta

Runefang

I tried macros on a dummy before to see how good it could be but the results were pretty bad. There is so many variables that throw off a macro which has a set time to wait between the LA and skill. Experience and practice is better.

Bladerunner1

The "light attacks are dealing too much DPS" sounds like a magic DPS issue. The percentage is smaller in stamina builds like

https://www.esologs.com/reports/4Y19BGAg2cLKhCyx#fight=last

This double DW StamDK, where light attacking is just 10%. And yeah light attacks are needed to proc relequen, but I missed dozens during that test. It's 10k more DPS than I could do with the last patch, and that's because of the massive DOTS, not the light attacks.

Nightblades on the other hand can't do well if they miss dozens of light attacks, which may explain why in my hands they're kind of crappy.

Perhaps if light attack weaving is problematic, don't stop trying to weave them, instead try a DOT-heavy build where you string DOTs together. Missing several light attacks can be more forgiving with the right build.

MehrunesFlagon

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO
Let me preface this by saying that i believe that 90%+ of the endgame players do not use macros.
But unlike you i actually believe that macros offer an advantage over direct user input.

The following two screenshots were taken from the top Sunspire log on esologs.com.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=89&type=damage-done


Here you can see there is always a small delay between the Light Attack and the skill afterwards.
And it's also inconsistent: 207ms, 170ms, 188ms, 57ms, 164ms.


This one is from another player but still the same log. As you can see there is consistently no delay between the Light Attack and the skills. I am not qualified to say wether or not this is a macro. Could also be something else but would love to hear your take on that log.

you didn't compare the same LA+skill in between time for your first example.
Also waiting time between LA and skill may vary to better lure, thus a macro is still used

If you are saying that mashi or ron are using macros, I dont know how to say it. you are so into your OPINION that you end up delusional. These examples are absolute top players. They dont macro weaving.
Macroing it will always cause a disadvantage because a tiny fluctuation of ping may break it and messes your whole rotation up.
I dont know what to say, other than you guys are something else. A player is better than you because of practicing makes them macro users? Jesus Christ.
These players play since day one of early start. And I played a fair share of time together with "godmancer" there. There is no macros involved. Just fingers, a mouse and a keyboard. And well, player skill.

and a bit of timing

xBacskay

“I can’t weave light attacks and don’t want to learn how to”

Delparis

Alcast made a guide + test parse with and without LA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/



37k more dps because of LA That's huge !!

So don't tell me now that only magicka get a boost because of vMA staff

Sanguinor2

Delparis wrote: »

Alcast made a guide + test parse with and without LA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/



37k more dps because of LA That's huge !!

So don't tell me now that only magicka get a boost because of vMA staff

Notice the 11k dps from Arms of Relequen 5 piece which gets applied by light attacks, you also have to factor in enchants/poisons proccing more often with LA weaving. But "37k more dps because of only LA" confirmed /s

Delparis

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Alcast made a guide + test parse with and without LA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/



37k more dps because of LA That's huge !!

So don't tell me now that only magicka get a boost because of vMA staff

Notice the 11k dps from Arms of Relequen 5 piece which gets applied by light attacks, you also have to factor in enchants/poisons proccing more often with LA weaving. But "37k more dps because of only LA" confirmed /s

I don't think Alcast or Liko don't know what they are doing. They are among the best players after all.
I don't know why ZoS keep this OP mechanic in the game but keep nerfing good skills

ThePedge

Delparis wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Alcast made a guide + test parse with and without LA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/



37k more dps because of LA That's huge !!

So don't tell me now that only magicka get a boost because of vMA staff

Notice the 11k dps from Arms of Relequen 5 piece which gets applied by light attacks, you also have to factor in enchants/poisons proccing more often with LA weaving. But "37k more dps because of only LA" confirmed /s

I don't think Alcast or Liko don't know what they are doing. They are among the best players after all.
I don't know why ZoS keep this OP mechanic in the game but keep nerfing good skills

But they're are losing one of their 5-Peice set bonuses, the most OP set in the game at that.

Enchantments as said before, as well as actual LA damage.

If they did the same test with something like Hundings Rage, DPS loss would be far less.

Rungar

i think what really happens is that when you cant cancel the animation, not the light attack animations, but the skill animations you have to wait for the animation to end before the next one will fire.

this builds up over time and the result is as you see. Light attacks account for 9% but end up doing 25% less of the dmg if you remove them.

obviously the test is flawed because of the sets used but even removing that (10k) you have light attacks doing 10k dps and an additional 17k dps thats unaccounted for anywhere else.

so animation cancelling does what it says it does. It maximizes the gcd at the cost of the spell animations which would otherwise be longer than the minimum.

Kingslayer513

This thread just reeks of desperation. The "all endgame players use macros" line always cracks me up

Banana

Nerf relequen

Rungar

this games overwhelming focus on dps at the cost of the rest of the game is what is dragging it down

if you do a proper root cause analysis you will clearly see it is dps animation cancelling (weaving) that ultimately decides whats going on in this game. Removing that will resolve the following problems.

root cause too much focus on dmg, reason animation cancelling.

too much burst in pvp/heavy armor meta

since weaving is free and provides significant FREE dmg and the ability to build ultimate for FREE heavy builds with less sustain are more viable. In addition since DMG can be literally doubled taking advantage of the gcd and players inability to react and counter other armors like medium and light armor are less viable.

Healers not required

Healers generally provide two things. Resources and healing. Weaving allows increased overall dps in the range of 25% more dmg at no cost. This reduces the need for both those things that healers offer a group. Since a third dps in a stacked group can enable a group to minimize mechanics via burn this often makes them more valuable than a healer.

One shots/ dlc dungeon accessibility on vet by median players

Prior to horns of the reach it was pretty rare to find a one shot mechanic at play in a dungeon.They were used very sparingly. Likewise multiple mechanics were never used at the same time. This is like 20+ dungeons. Zos's solution to overwhelming dmg by the players was to increase the difficulty via one shots and multiple mechanics. This is why to this day base dungeons are still very popular and dlc dungeons are ghost towns. Zos designed them for 5% of the players.

bad performance especially input lag

animation cancelling for dps purposes causes a great increase in input from a player which contributes to server load. The server end up getting overloaded because the animation cancelling for dps (weaving) triples the requirements for each player. Since all players use the same server everyones overall experience diminishes the more animation cancelling is used on a grand scale.

too many bad dps

due to the enhanced dps not everyone either understands, or is willing to sit in front of a combat dummy to achieve that goal. They just want to play and expect they will learn by playing. Usually what happens if they cannot perform is that they booted and learn nothing. Additionally the reflexes required ( assuming you dont macro it) are literally not available to likely the vast majority of players and not because they necessarily cant do it but because they dont want to. They just want to play the game for fun and frantic button presses every .5 seconds does not make sense to these people.

to most of these people i will call the majority of players, its more than enough gameplay to get all your spells out and stay alive. Tacking on the additional requirement of animation cancelling is frustrating and uncomfortable for most of these people.

No tanks to play with so wait for an hour

Very few people play tanks which cripples the groupfinder experience. Tanks dont want to play with groups with subpar dps and not because they havent tried, it just doesnt work in this game. They give up using the groupfinder which is catastrophic for this game. Since a tank has no real way to provide any dps thay are at the mercy of whatever the groupfinder brings them, which is usually bad dps. Using the groupfinder for anything past mazzutun is generally a lesson in pain unless you win the "dps lottery".


the only redesign needed is how dps works and animation cancelling for dps (weaving) needs to be retired so this game can be restandardized for the median player not the top 5%.

AcadianPaladin

Weaving does indeed dramatically widen the gap between floor and ceiling. I'm neutral on weaving myself (I do it but don't care too much if it stays or goes). The only reason I bring it up is that it relates to any discussion of light attacks. If weaving is considered a problem (again, I don't see it as a problem or really care), then nerfing light attacks is not the solution.

My reasoning is that, while light attacks are important to augment dps for top level players, light attacks are absolutely essential for new/casual players to survive. Ever seen a new player with a bow? The only reason they survive early on is from spamming light attacks. Light attacks are what gives new/casual players the breathing room to learn how to gradually work in spells and improve. As they begin working in spells and other abilities (and running out of mag/stam), it is, once again, light attacks that continue to give them breathing room to survive, learn and grow.

Nerfing light attacks would indeed bring down the ceiling some but it would drive the floor into the basement.

Tldr: Don't nerf light attacks - they are too important to new/casuals.

Rungar

i would just remove the differentiation between the skills and light attacks and i guess bash. When everything is on the global timer except ultimates, block and roll dodge things will improve. If the cost for bash was right that wouldnt need to go on the timer either.

your logic is slightly faulty though. What point is it promoting light attack bow spamming when ultimately it wont work. They should be required to get to know their skills to survive early on as possible.

Naftal

Rungar wrote: »

i would just remove the differentiation between the skills and light attacks and i guess bash. When everything is on the global timer except ultimates, block and roll dodge things will improve. If the cost for bash was right that wouldnt need to go on the timer either.

your logic is slightly faulty though. What point is it promoting light attack bow spamming when ultimately it wont work. They should be required to get to know their skills to survive early on as possible.

If everything is on the same global cooldown then it makes it so there's no point in using a light attack other than once every 8 seconds and the combat devolves to boring WoW-like thing.

blnchk

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Don't nerf light attacks - they are too important to new/casuals.

As far as I know, this was the devs' reason for buffing them in the first place. They may have been trying to bridge the gap between the floor and ceiling, even. We can see how that's turned out.

Iskiab

blnchk wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Don't nerf light attacks - they are too important to new/casuals.

As far as I know, this was the devs' reason for buffing them in the first place. They may have been trying to bridge the gap between the floor and ceiling, even. We can see how that's turned out.

Light attacks being important to casual players is total BS. All they’d have to do is make heavy attacks like a skill and it’d be fine.

Even though light attacks are dumb they’re here to stay. ZOS must have known there were issues but doubled down on making light attacks important. There are a ton of abilities and passives that work around light attacks.

Major_Lag

Rungar wrote: »

your logic is slightly faulty though. What point is it promoting light attack bow spamming when ultimately it wont work. They should be required to get to know their skills to survive early on as possible.

IMO that is one of the major problems with this game... it completely fails to TEACH new players the basics of sustainable combat: self-healing, resource management, interrupting enemies and blocking, to name the 4 worst pain points. To say nothing about actually using abilities (skills) on any kind of regular basis.

Overland content is a complete joke, you can squeak by through most if not all quests by just spamming light attack while wearing random non-set gear, maybe with the occasional skill activation thrown in for a good measure, or popping a health potion.
Not saying that overland needs to (or even should) be harder, but I think we can agree that it does absolutely nothing to prepare players for any of the harder content.

Unfortunately, how do you want to define "early on"? It's a very open-world game, and the overland content can be done in just about any order imaginable...

Juhasow

Delparis wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Alcast made a guide + test parse with and without LA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-weaving-beginner-guide-animation-canceling/



37k more dps because of LA That's huge !!

So don't tell me now that only magicka get a boost because of vMA staff

Notice the 11k dps from Arms of Relequen 5 piece which gets applied by light attacks, you also have to factor in enchants/poisons proccing more often with LA weaving. But "37k more dps because of only LA" confirmed /s

I don't think Alcast or Liko don't know what they are doing. They are among the best players after all.
I don't know why ZoS keep this OP mechanic in the game but keep nerfing good skills

They know what they're doing but You dont know how to read. Let me link wider context of the picture



Thing is if relequen would've been replaced with some other set like leviathan for example it would be already increase in DPS. Relequen is set designed for epople who learned how to weave but there is plenty of sets supporting those who havn't. Also You've giving an extreme example where no weapon attack have been used where in reality even with 15 minutes of practice some light or heavy attacks would've been weaved inbetween abilities here and there and also add to the overall DPS not by only adding its own damage but also by activating ultimate generation , enchantments , poisons etc and at the end difference in DPS wouldn't be 37k but more like 17k max which isnt that much considering we're talking about DPS ~100k and fact perfected light attack weaving takes time to practice and should be rewarded with additional DPS and that 15% DPS increase sounds fair. And 15% is a realistic difference between someone who have mastered rotation and light attack weaving and does it perfectly and someone who just do light attack weaving at low/medium efficiency but is able to manage his abilities rotation perfectly , assuming both have setups supporting their rotations best way possible because that is another thing people forget that certains setups or abilities simply wont be effective if You cannot weave yet people just jump to 1st video guide copy-paste it and then complain their DPS isnt as high as in video.

You're trying very hard to promote Your biased agenda by taking things out of context. You dont even understand why people are getting low DPS at 1st place. Even if ZoS would remove light attack weaving from the game tomorrow most of the people that struggles to reach high DPS numbers today would still struggle with that day after.

MehrunesFlagon

To all those saying you need macros to reach high numbers.That is utter bs.I don't hit top numbers,but do hit 90k with stamcro non perfected rele and lokke,vMA dagger/axe and master bow.All without macros.How people get higher number is by tightening up their weaving and executing quicker bar swaps,which leads to more light attacks and less possibility of down time on dots.Thus increasing dps.

Xogath

ITT: some bad that can't be bothered to learn how to weave, or has such high latency that they don't care to compensate, so calls for nerfs to basic combat mechanics in their attempt to "git gud".

Seriously, weaving is so absurdly easy that anyone thinking it needs changed because LAs are "too strong" is absolutely laughable.

Get out.