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Streak fatigue but no Cloak fatigue?
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Dodge uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be dodged. Cloak uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be cloaked. They're direct equivalents.
Dodge has a bit mobility baked-in, Cloak has visual cover baked-in. Both valuable for positioning.
Ball of Lightning would be the sorc's best equivalent. It has great positioning but bad avoidance. Thus, it's far inferior and typically not chosen by sorcs.
Shields, btw, are indeed the equivalent to heals. They are pre-applied burst heals, to be precise. To distinguish them from the reactive defenses of stamina players, who use HoTs and dodges primarily.1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All you guys on both sides are wasting breath with bad arguments because you are comparing apples to oranges to cherries to bananas. Shields, Cloak, Streak and Dodge are all too different from each other to make this kind of argument. But that doesn't matter because...
Streak didn't get nerfed because of how it worked or what it did. Streak got nerfed because it made other players feel insanely FRUSTRATED when they couldn't catch a Sorc with good sustain. So frustrated that they came to the forums and cried and cried and cried until ZOS gave Streak the worst nerf in the history of MMOs: an exponentially increasing cost.
THAT is why Cloak deserves to be nerfed with a similar exponential cost mechanic, because there is nothing more frustrating than fighting a cowardly Nightblade who keeps peppering you with attacks and winking out of sight every time you turn around to attack!
Edited by Emma_Overload on August 9, 2019 3:06PM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Holy smokes, this is wrong. Standing near someone doesn't break cloak, only crouch.
Can't mount cause you're stuck in combat.also:
cast hurricane and get on your mount and ride around, they cant escape and are seen and pulled out of stealth immediately.
The area is too small to be effective for most of them, if you even know where to use them. Of course you can always just move 5m and cloak again.also:
cast area of effect abilities all around, it pulls us out of stealth
Are you serious? This absolute DOES NOT work.also:
cast light attack all around constantly it pulls our out of stealth.
This is also 100% wrong, you can cloak through guards all day. They only see through crouch.the list goes on and on and on and on and on .....
cloak and stealth cannot be maintained.
also try standing next to any guards, we cant maintain cloak near guards ...
none of the things you said are correct. i outlined several methods that do work.
im sory but those ways of bringing people out of stealth work and they work a little too good.
everything breaks stealth, everything.
The thread isn't about stealth. It's about a specific NB skill and morph called shadowy disguise bud. And none of those things you said work against it.
The thread isn't really about the skill called cloak. It is about wanting a skill nerfed because one chooses to not use the hard counters designed to be used against the skill Essentially, bring the game down to ones level. We now this because of the lame excuse the OP provides that falsely makes it appear there is potions to reveal a cloaked NB.
Ironically, those of us that have learned to use the counters find them very effective and scratch our wondering how some people find this to be so challenging. It is fun hunting and killing NBs that try to cloak away. PvP is supposed to be about challenge and unpredictability. PvE is for the predictable combat.
Not sure I agree with this. There are lots of bad NB out there so of course there are lots of cannon fodder potatoes that give the illusion that cloak is easy to counter. But outside of detect pots a good NB won't be stopped from cloaking. Just cause you run down some nb zerglings that panic and run in predictable directions doesn't mean much. I can probably find a 1vX post from a nb on these very forums within the first page or two showing them using cloak to eliminate whole raids almost and could point to that using your logic to show its op.
Cloak does need retuned. It's either op in that, sure they won't kill you with it if your decent but a good nb that knows how to use shade and other tools can always reset the fight. Or it is completely worthless cause of detect pots and all the aoe being thrown out around an objective. Honestly detect pots should go. Easy hard counters shouldn't exist. Same reason old dk wings went. Cause I'm sick of hearing about a potion nulliffying cloak and how there isnt a potion that does that for streak. And aoe dots shouldn't break it either. Only direct damage aoe with maybe jabs and overload heavy attack being exceptions. But then a fatigue mechanic implemented to where the NB is punished when caught by those soft counters but is still usable when the ground dots get stacked on objectives.
Fyi cloak got an indirect buff relative to streak if the predicted single target dot meta comes to fruition. Streak won't let you escape dots, cloak will, or at least suppress their damage for as long as it is up so being able to perma stack it with no penalty starts to look like a major advantage. More people hopping on that train may have to drop aoe for the new powerful single target dots. AOE dots were nerfed as well so even more incentive to not have them on your bars in pvp.
Obviously I come across some skilled players that get away from me and even kill me. To suggest otherwise would be absurd. But to suggest that a skill should be nerfed because a skilled player got the better of me using that skill seems even more absurd. BTW, that skilled NB also used more than just cloak which is a major point where your argument fails.
I am not even touching the preposterous connection you are trying to make by stating cloak got buffed relatively to steak because I laugh at people who try to catch me when I use streak. Yes, your reply will be less experienced zergilngs are the ones who cannot catch me when I use streak but that would just prove my point.
Not sure how it proves your point bud. You need to take the skill potential and synergies into account when balancing. Snipe got nerfed into the ground cause of claok. Also my point is even incompetent NB are carried by the skill because there is no penalty to being caught by a soft counter. They can just keep spamming till they get away sometimes. Good NBs honestly would hardly be affected out side of if they wanted to keep it up constantly it would take extra resources just like sorcs do if they streak 2 or more times in a row.
And if you don't realize cloak is going to have an advantage in a dot meta especially if it remains spammable to avoid all that dot damage I can't help you. Probably see you in here crying cause some zerg all just hit you with the new entropy and soul trap and you died even even though you were able to streak away.
Naa, your point was a good NB (skilled player) won't be stopped from cloaking. That got shot down really hard because that skilled player is using more than cloak to escape so now you are insinuating a incompetent NB is carried by the skill can reliably escape a skilled player and that somehow the hard counters to cloak are somehow only soft counters. It seems more that you are twisting fact into fantasy.3 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
I've said this before
streak is in no way comparable to a dodge roll
Dodge roll is to streak as Block is to Evasion.
Streak doesn't even break cc, it doesn't prevent you from taking damage (BoL DOESN'T WORK 80% of the time), it doesn't have even remotely the same level of synergy going on, it takes a whole skill slot
Just no, it's not. It is in no way even remotely close to a dodge roll.Edited by Cathexis on August 9, 2019 7:12PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Dodge uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be dodged. Cloak uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be cloaked. They're direct equivalents.
Dodge has a bit mobility baked-in, Cloak has visual cover baked-in. Both valuable for positioning.
Ball of Lightning would be the sorc's best equivalent. It has great positioning but bad avoidance. Thus, it's far inferior and typically not chosen by sorcs.
Shields, btw, are indeed the equivalent to heals. They are pre-applied burst heals, to be precise. To distinguish them from the reactive defenses of stamina players, who use HoTs and dodges primarily.
Far inferior? That's determined by the skill level of the player utilizing it. I can't speak for what your experience has been.
As for your comparison:
Its damage mitigation. That's what cloak and shield accomplish. Stationary damage mitigation.
Which is why they're treated similarly.
Streak and dodge roll mitigate damage via mobility.
Saying that cloak is the equivalent of dodgeroll because they both force misses is like saying Ball of lightning is the equivalent of shimmering shield because they both absorb projectiles.
The difference between shimmering shield and BoL is mobility. The difference between cloak and dodgeroll is mobility.
Streak and dodgeroll have fatigue to limit.... Their mobility. That's why they are treated similarly.
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EdoKeledus✭✭✭It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
DC PC EU Vivec
Daggerfall Convenant Loyalist3 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
What potion counters those abilities?
What guild skill lines have abilities that specifically counter those skills?
Cloak has more counters than any class skill in the game. It has been nerfed, changed, etc.
Nightblades have been nerfed into mediocrity. With all that at your disposal, what class/build do you play? And what do nightblades have to counter it?3 -
GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
Cloak HAS been changed... All you new players don't know but cloak used to purge when activated... So
Cloak : changed3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
Cloak HAS been changed... All you new players don't know but cloak used to purge when activated... So
Cloak : changed
Very good catch. They make a false statement about cloak then call people hypocrites. LMAO.2 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
Cloak HAS been changed... All you new players don't know but cloak used to purge when activated... So
Cloak : changed
And then changed from two invisibility morphs to just one.2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What’s going on with this thread? A hundred replies and it hasn’t devolved into a ‘Nerf Sorc’ thread?
I’ll get it started. /nerf sorcLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »Cloak and Streak are not even comparible. Sorcs being sorcs as usual.
Seriously, clock is so mush more op than streak.
Cloak is OP in the hands of someone who understands how to trick your eye.
If most of you who cry about cloak on these forums actually played a nightblade, you'd see cloak and streak arent comparable.
I do not get ganked by a nightblade, because I used to exclusively gank.
Play the classes then complain.
Sorcs gettin everyone nerfed when mag sorc always been top pick for a pvp class. Even with the nerf bat is wrapped in pillows for you.
Nah if you actually learn how to play NB right you learn how powerful it is. You learn to port to shade then cloak. You learn to CC then cloak. You learn other techniques to create space to cloak so aoe don't catch you. Outside of detect pots nothing will stop a good NB from cloaking.
The reason cloaking NB are not in high mmr has little to do with cloak being bad or not good and more to do with the cloaking playstyle not being conducive to team play and the need to hold objectives and the like.
Cloak needs a rework. And honestly hard counters shouldn't exist like detect pots and the reveal skills for the same reason dk wings was changed as it creates polarized gameplay. Good soft counters that reward skillful use and actually punish the NB that gets caught by them. Just saying to slot a detect pot was the same as saying you just need to heavy attack with a lighting staff or run force shock to counter the old dk wings. While sound advice at the time it was BS balance wise.
Youre overhyping cloak and battlegrounds dont matter.0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Emma_Overload wrote: »All you guys on both sides are wasting breath with bad arguments because you are comparing apples to oranges to cherries to bananas. Shields, Cloak, Streak and Dodge are all too different from each other to make this kind of argument. But that doesn't matter because...
Streak didn't get nerfed because of how it worked or what it did. Streak got nerfed because it made other players feel insanely FRUSTRATED when they couldn't catch a Sorc with good sustain. So frustrated that they came to the forums and cried and cried and cried until ZOS gave Streak the worst nerf in the history of MMOs: an exponentially increasing cost.
THAT is why Cloak deserves to be nerfed with a similar exponential cost mechanic, because there is nothing more frustrating than fighting a cowardly Nightblade who keeps peppering you with attacks and winking out of sight every time you turn around to attack!
When you can outrun a 60% mount thats sprinting thats kind of a problem.
It was not well implemented in the beginning. Kinda like Mist, Dynamic Ult, and infinite bats.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Dodge uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be dodged. Cloak uses iframes to avoid all incoming damage that can be cloaked. They're direct equivalents.
Dodge has a bit mobility baked-in, Cloak has visual cover baked-in. Both valuable for positioning.
Ball of Lightning would be the sorc's best equivalent. It has great positioning but bad avoidance. Thus, it's far inferior and typically not chosen by sorcs.
Shields, btw, are indeed the equivalent to heals. They are pre-applied burst heals, to be precise. To distinguish them from the reactive defenses of stamina players, who use HoTs and dodges primarily.
Far inferior? That's determined by the skill level of the player utilizing it. I can't speak for what your experience has been.
As for your comparison:
Its damage mitigation. That's what cloak and shield accomplish. Stationary damage mitigation.
Which is why they're treated similarly.
Streak and dodge roll mitigate damage via mobility.
Saying that cloak is the equivalent of dodgeroll because they both force misses is like saying Ball of lightning is the equivalent of shimmering shield because they both absorb projectiles.
The difference between shimmering shield and BoL is mobility. The difference between cloak and dodgeroll is mobility.
Streak and dodgeroll have fatigue to limit.... Their mobility. That's why they are treated similarly.
Nope. Cloak and dodge mitigate ALL affected damage. BoL does only magic projectiles. Important difference.1 -
killingspreeb16_ESO✭✭✭✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
Cloak HAS been changed... All you new players don't know but cloak used to purge when activated... So
Cloak : changed
also you could cast skill like vigor in cloak without breaking it before and got changed and the healing crit in cloak was changed aswell,better not mention those parts otherwise their argument is worth less than 0.
Once cloak become like streak with only soft counter like streak then the penality would be fine.0 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »All you guys on both sides are wasting breath with bad arguments because you are comparing apples to oranges to cherries to bananas. Shields, Cloak, Streak and Dodge are all too different from each other to make this kind of argument. But that doesn't matter because...
Streak didn't get nerfed because of how it worked or what it did. Streak got nerfed because it made other players feel insanely FRUSTRATED when they couldn't catch a Sorc with good sustain. So frustrated that they came to the forums and cried and cried and cried until ZOS gave Streak the worst nerf in the history of MMOs: an exponentially increasing cost.
THAT is why Cloak deserves to be nerfed with a similar exponential cost mechanic, because there is nothing more frustrating than fighting a cowardly Nightblade who keeps peppering you with attacks and winking out of sight every time you turn around to attack!
Streak just got double buffed even though it is far superior to dodgeroll.
There's nothing more frustrating that a Magsorc who just streaks away and cannot be caught. Very easy to pull NB out of cloak.0 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭EdoKeledus wrote: »It's funny how every nightblade are
offended when the subject is about cloak, doing their best to save their stupid skill but they have all of them asked for wings nerf since day one.
Streak : changed
Wings : changed
Damage Shield : changed
Cloak: has to be changed (fatigue is fine)
stop with the hypocrisy.
Streak: buffed
Wings: nerfed
Damage shield: balanced
Cloak: nerfed0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Holy smokes, this is wrong. Standing near someone doesn't break cloak, only crouch.
Can't mount cause you're stuck in combat.also:
cast hurricane and get on your mount and ride around, they cant escape and are seen and pulled out of stealth immediately.
The area is too small to be effective for most of them, if you even know where to use them. Of course you can always just move 5m and cloak again.also:
cast area of effect abilities all around, it pulls us out of stealth
Are you serious? This absolute DOES NOT work.also:
cast light attack all around constantly it pulls our out of stealth.
This is also 100% wrong, you can cloak through guards all day. They only see through crouch.the list goes on and on and on and on and on .....
cloak and stealth cannot be maintained.
also try standing next to any guards, we cant maintain cloak near guards ...
none of the things you said are correct. i outlined several methods that do work.
im sory but those ways of bringing people out of stealth work and they work a little too good.
everything breaks stealth, everything.
The thread isn't about stealth. It's about a specific NB skill and morph called shadowy disguise bud. And none of those things you said work against it.
The thread isn't really about the skill called cloak. It is about wanting a skill nerfed because one chooses to not use the hard counters designed to be used against the skill Essentially, bring the game down to ones level. We now this because of the lame excuse the OP provides that falsely makes it appear there is potions to reveal a cloaked NB.
Ironically, those of us that have learned to use the counters find them very effective and scratch our wondering how some people find this to be so challenging. It is fun hunting and killing NBs that try to cloak away. PvP is supposed to be about challenge and unpredictability. PvE is for the predictable combat.
Not sure I agree with this. There are lots of bad NB out there so of course there are lots of cannon fodder potatoes that give the illusion that cloak is easy to counter. But outside of detect pots a good NB won't be stopped from cloaking. Just cause you run down some nb zerglings that panic and run in predictable directions doesn't mean much. I can probably find a 1vX post from a nb on these very forums within the first page or two showing them using cloak to eliminate whole raids almost and could point to that using your logic to show its op.
Cloak does need retuned. It's either op in that, sure they won't kill you with it if your decent but a good nb that knows how to use shade and other tools can always reset the fight. Or it is completely worthless cause of detect pots and all the aoe being thrown out around an objective. Honestly detect pots should go. Easy hard counters shouldn't exist. Same reason old dk wings went. Cause I'm sick of hearing about a potion nulliffying cloak and how there isnt a potion that does that for streak. And aoe dots shouldn't break it either. Only direct damage aoe with maybe jabs and overload heavy attack being exceptions. But then a fatigue mechanic implemented to where the NB is punished when caught by those soft counters but is still usable when the ground dots get stacked on objectives.
Fyi cloak got an indirect buff relative to streak if the predicted single target dot meta comes to fruition. Streak won't let you escape dots, cloak will, or at least suppress their damage for as long as it is up so being able to perma stack it with no penalty starts to look like a major advantage. More people hopping on that train may have to drop aoe for the new powerful single target dots. AOE dots were nerfed as well so even more incentive to not have them on your bars in pvp.
Obviously I come across some skilled players that get away from me and even kill me. To suggest otherwise would be absurd. But to suggest that a skill should be nerfed because a skilled player got the better of me using that skill seems even more absurd. BTW, that skilled NB also used more than just cloak which is a major point where your argument fails.
I am not even touching the preposterous connection you are trying to make by stating cloak got buffed relatively to steak because I laugh at people who try to catch me when I use streak. Yes, your reply will be less experienced zergilngs are the ones who cannot catch me when I use streak but that would just prove my point.
Not sure how it proves your point bud. You need to take the skill potential and synergies into account when balancing. Snipe got nerfed into the ground cause of claok. Also my point is even incompetent NB are carried by the skill because there is no penalty to being caught by a soft counter. They can just keep spamming till they get away sometimes. Good NBs honestly would hardly be affected out side of if they wanted to keep it up constantly it would take extra resources just like sorcs do if they streak 2 or more times in a row.
And if you don't realize cloak is going to have an advantage in a dot meta especially if it remains spammable to avoid all that dot damage I can't help you. Probably see you in here crying cause some zerg all just hit you with the new entropy and soul trap and you died even even though you were able to streak away.
Naa, your point was a good NB (skilled player) won't be stopped from cloaking. That got shot down really hard because that skilled player is using more than cloak to escape so now you are insinuating a incompetent NB is carried by the skill can reliably escape a skilled player and that somehow the hard counters to cloak are somehow only soft counters. It seems more that you are twisting fact into fantasy.
First off the only hard counter is detect pots. Everything else is a soft counter that has to be used properly without guaranteed success. Doesn't sound like you understand the difference in soft vs hard counters. Just cause it breaks cloak doesn't mean it is a hard counter. The skill still fired and had some effect.
And sorry no matter how you word it you can't look at skills in a vacuum, synergies matter. A sorc doesn't kill you or get away with streak alone either bud. Infact streak hasn't ever been the reason I couldn't beat a sorc since the fatigue nerf. Pets, shields, and the fact it procs frags all play into streaks potency. Same goes for cloak.
As for good vs incompetent NBs you are missing the point. Cloak has little consequences for when the NB makes a mistake or gets countered. A competely incompetent player won't be carried by any skill. It has more to do with mistakes should be punished than with what quality of player can do what with it. If you mess up and streak into a rock or over a ledge or into the lava you are punished for that mistake with the cost increase. If you cloak in an aoe or cloak and move in a predictable direction and get caught that should be punished.
I actually want cloak to be in a place that you see cloak blades in high end BGs. Like I said I'd like to see hard easy counters deleted but cloak made to where it can't be abused. I get everyone just accepts how it is now cause it isn't horrible but as it stands right now it doesn't pit skill vs skill very well. You either have the tools in your kit to counter it or you don't. If you don't then you're SOL and the NB can abuse it to no end. As detect pots are not a good solution on console cause of the clunkiness of hot slotting and cloak remains the only skill that requires a counter that can be worthless to your build outside of fighting NBs.1 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »All you guys on both sides are wasting breath with bad arguments because you are comparing apples to oranges to cherries to bananas. Shields, Cloak, Streak and Dodge are all too different from each other to make this kind of argument. But that doesn't matter because...
Streak didn't get nerfed because of how it worked or what it did. Streak got nerfed because it made other players feel insanely FRUSTRATED when they couldn't catch a Sorc with good sustain. So frustrated that they came to the forums and cried and cried and cried until ZOS gave Streak the worst nerf in the history of MMOs: an exponentially increasing cost.
THAT is why Cloak deserves to be nerfed with a similar exponential cost mechanic, because there is nothing more frustrating than fighting a cowardly Nightblade who keeps peppering you with attacks and winking out of sight every time you turn around to attack!
Streak just got double buffed even though it is far superior to dodgeroll.
There's nothing more frustrating that a Magsorc who just streaks away and cannot be caught. Very easy to pull NB out of cloak.
Very easy to run down a streaking sorc if you bother with a gap closer. I have never had a sorc get away from me since the fatigue nerf unless a zerg or their team peeled hard for them.2 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »Cloak and Streak are not even comparible. Sorcs being sorcs as usual.
Seriously, clock is so mush more op than streak.
Cloak is OP in the hands of someone who understands how to trick your eye.
If most of you who cry about cloak on these forums actually played a nightblade, you'd see cloak and streak arent comparable.
I do not get ganked by a nightblade, because I used to exclusively gank.
Play the classes then complain.
Sorcs gettin everyone nerfed when mag sorc always been top pick for a pvp class. Even with the nerf bat is wrapped in pillows for you.
Nah if you actually learn how to play NB right you learn how powerful it is. You learn to port to shade then cloak. You learn to CC then cloak. You learn other techniques to create space to cloak so aoe don't catch you. Outside of detect pots nothing will stop a good NB from cloaking.
The reason cloaking NB are not in high mmr has little to do with cloak being bad or not good and more to do with the cloaking playstyle not being conducive to team play and the need to hold objectives and the like.
Cloak needs a rework. And honestly hard counters shouldn't exist like detect pots and the reveal skills for the same reason dk wings was changed as it creates polarized gameplay. Good soft counters that reward skillful use and actually punish the NB that gets caught by them. Just saying to slot a detect pot was the same as saying you just need to heavy attack with a lighting staff or run force shock to counter the old dk wings. While sound advice at the time it was BS balance wise.
Youre overhyping cloak and battlegrounds dont matter.
Your opinion on pvp doesn't matter then as you are obviously an RP zergling if you think cyro offers any semblance of balanced competitive pvp. Cyro is the sole reason ESO is a joke in the larger pvp game community despite having the superior combat system Cyro was misguided Dark Age of Camelot nostalgia that never offered any hope of providing a balanced pvp environment. And this was obvious to any long time mmo pvper which is why so many people stayed away. Battle grounds offer the only hope of good pvp and even then they messed it up by sticking to 3 teams and not being able to balance cp. Wanting to play with cp is the only reason to bother with cyro. Nothing to do with the format.Edited by NuarBlack on August 10, 2019 12:54AM1 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Cloak has no mobility..? What is this I don't even...
Cloak lets you move in any direction without being seen.
Streak doesn't let you escape, it lets you reposition. If you already have a lot of distance, that's the only time streak lets you escape, and even then it can be countered.
Cloak offers significantly more mobility benefits than streak.Edited by Cathexis on August 10, 2019 1:38AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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GhostofDatthaw✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Cloak has no mobility..? What is this I don't even...
Cloak lets you move in any direction without being seen.
Streak doesn't let you escape, it lets you reposition. If you already have a lot of distance, that's the only time streak lets you escape, and even then it can be countered.
Cloak offers significantly more mobility benefits than streak.
How about this. I play sorc and you play nb. I streak away and you cloak to try and catch me3 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭GhostofDatthaw wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Cloak has no mobility..? What is this I don't even...
Cloak lets you move in any direction without being seen.
Streak doesn't let you escape, it lets you reposition. If you already have a lot of distance, that's the only time streak lets you escape, and even then it can be countered.
Cloak offers significantly more mobility benefits than streak.
How about this. I play sorc and you play nb. I streak away and you cloak to try and catch me
Ok, that's easy, I'll cloak and then spam teleport strike.
Mobility utilities operate on multiple dimensions. Just because one is not equivalent to the other does not make it therefore not mobility.Edited by Cathexis on August 10, 2019 3:41AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
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zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭TriangularChicken wrote: »GhostofDatthaw wrote: »Someone with high MMR tell me when you come across a Nightblade in BGs. They're so unkillable it should be full of them.
The only NBS I come across that are unkillable are people why are just flat out better players than I am.
Same goes for sorc
For warden
For dk
For Templar
For necro
Ok completely missed my point there, but true.
Magblade can permacloak, if allowed you would never ever see them. Almost non-existant besides bombers and tanks. Surely if cloak was that strong everybody would be running magblade.
Nobody has a problem fighting mag NBs because their overall mobility is balanced.
Stam NB on the other hand has access to cloak, shade and most importantly dodge roll. All 3 combined are the problem, so if you manage to balance aka nerf one of them without nerfing mag nb we solve the problem - simply increase the base cost of cloak (shadowy disguise) and add a passive that decreases the cost for each piece of light armor you're wearing. No nerf for mag NB, nerf for medium and heavy troll king bleed stam blades.I Play NB. I have no anti-NB bias. Cloak should DEFINETELY have stacking cost when used back-to-back. Aka Fatigue Mechanic. Cloak is an all round OP skill. Being able to permacast it is just broken.
Just to remind everyone; They introduced fatigue mechanic because CP and Sets allowed you to get so much sustain, that you could cast some skills indefintely. We had permarolling builds and we had permastreaking builds.
Dodgeroll got stacking cost because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
Streak got stacking cost because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
Cloak SHOULD ALSO get stacking cost, because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
All 3 skills are very comparable. They are all escape tools, that helps you to both disengage in combat and to avoid taking damage. They are so similar that personally i cant believe they have not done anything about it already. It feels so natural to me, that it should have fatigue. WHY should a magblade be allowed to permacloak around the battlefield with no penalty? It makes no sense at all, and it way too OP. Just like it was when Sorcs could permastreak and every stamchar could permaroll.
The most common defense i see is "Cloak is easy to counter". Wether you can counter a cloaking NB in combat is completely and absolutely irrelevant. I can counter Streaking sorcs by simply gapclose spamming. I can do the same with dodgerollers. Both these other skills are equally "easy" to counter, if you know what you are doing and you make sure that your build has counters for all these major mechanics. The fact still remains, that being able to spam Cloak, is just as broken as being able to spam Dodge or Streak. Therefore it should get fatigue.
There are no other skills in the game, that i feel currently should get fatigue. But i do think blocking should also have fatigue, under the same logic.
By that logic shields should fatigue, stop people from permashielding.
You can't COUNTER dodgeroll or Streak because it always does it's ability. You can react to it but you can't stop someone dodgerolling or streaking.
You can counter cloak, nullifying it's mechanics. Make Cloak unbreakable and sure, add fatigue.
You can counter a dodge roll mid animation with an intelligent root or stun that goes though block. You can counter someone constantly streaking by repeatedly gap closing, while they are facing the opposite direction you are still doing damage every time they streak. Cloak on the other hand can’t be stopped if the person has a combination of being a stam build ( roll dodge), having a speed bonus, using shade, and fearing then using cloak. That can all be done with a normal amount of of stat mag of around min 11k and low mag
I gather most people wouldn’t care about cloak if it wasn’t for the fact that when it works like it should. You completely negate any dot, prevent the enemy from applying pressure to you, and are allowed to heal during the duration (pots, rally, sets but vigor breaks cloak). I love how nightblades will say that cloak is fine and should be left alone but will be the same ones who wanted wings nerfed.2 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭no one and i mean No One asked for wings to be nerfed.
please stop saying that.
that nerf to wings was done out of the blue that was a shock to all of us and we even tried to help them not get the nerf.
the developers decided to do that on their own and they went ahead with it.0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭and by the way, i kill cloaked nightblades daily, and i have done so for years.
they kill me also, its not hard to do.
just use the counters that list is Loong of the amount of things that bring us out of cloak, the best one that i hate is pots and that stupid mage light.
needs to be toned down on both of them.0 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »TriangularChicken wrote: »GhostofDatthaw wrote: »Someone with high MMR tell me when you come across a Nightblade in BGs. They're so unkillable it should be full of them.
The only NBS I come across that are unkillable are people why are just flat out better players than I am.
Same goes for sorc
For warden
For dk
For Templar
For necro
Ok completely missed my point there, but true.
Magblade can permacloak, if allowed you would never ever see them. Almost non-existant besides bombers and tanks. Surely if cloak was that strong everybody would be running magblade.
Nobody has a problem fighting mag NBs because their overall mobility is balanced.
Stam NB on the other hand has access to cloak, shade and most importantly dodge roll. All 3 combined are the problem, so if you manage to balance aka nerf one of them without nerfing mag nb we solve the problem - simply increase the base cost of cloak (shadowy disguise) and add a passive that decreases the cost for each piece of light armor you're wearing. No nerf for mag NB, nerf for medium and heavy troll king bleed stam blades.I Play NB. I have no anti-NB bias. Cloak should DEFINETELY have stacking cost when used back-to-back. Aka Fatigue Mechanic. Cloak is an all round OP skill. Being able to permacast it is just broken.
Just to remind everyone; They introduced fatigue mechanic because CP and Sets allowed you to get so much sustain, that you could cast some skills indefintely. We had permarolling builds and we had permastreaking builds.
Dodgeroll got stacking cost because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
Streak got stacking cost because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
Cloak SHOULD ALSO get stacking cost, because being able to permacast it, breaks the game. You become untargetable by almost all skills.
All 3 skills are very comparable. They are all escape tools, that helps you to both disengage in combat and to avoid taking damage. They are so similar that personally i cant believe they have not done anything about it already. It feels so natural to me, that it should have fatigue. WHY should a magblade be allowed to permacloak around the battlefield with no penalty? It makes no sense at all, and it way too OP. Just like it was when Sorcs could permastreak and every stamchar could permaroll.
The most common defense i see is "Cloak is easy to counter". Wether you can counter a cloaking NB in combat is completely and absolutely irrelevant. I can counter Streaking sorcs by simply gapclose spamming. I can do the same with dodgerollers. Both these other skills are equally "easy" to counter, if you know what you are doing and you make sure that your build has counters for all these major mechanics. The fact still remains, that being able to spam Cloak, is just as broken as being able to spam Dodge or Streak. Therefore it should get fatigue.
There are no other skills in the game, that i feel currently should get fatigue. But i do think blocking should also have fatigue, under the same logic.
By that logic shields should fatigue, stop people from permashielding.
You can't COUNTER dodgeroll or Streak because it always does it's ability. You can react to it but you can't stop someone dodgerolling or streaking.
You can counter cloak, nullifying it's mechanics. Make Cloak unbreakable and sure, add fatigue.
You can counter a dodge roll mid animation with an intelligent root or stun that goes though block. You can counter someone constantly streaking by repeatedly gap closing, while they are facing the opposite direction you are still doing damage every time they streak. Cloak on the other hand can’t be stopped if the person has a combination of being a stam build ( roll dodge), having a speed bonus, using shade, and fearing then using cloak. That can all be done with a normal amount of of stat mag of around min 11k and low mag
I gather most people wouldn’t care about cloak if it wasn’t for the fact that when it works like it should. You completely negate any dot, prevent the enemy from applying pressure to you, and are allowed to heal during the duration (pots, rally, sets but vigor breaks cloak). I love how nightblades will say that cloak is fine and should be left alone but will be the same ones who wanted wings nerfed.
Cloak is fine and Wings is also fine right now.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »
Holy smokes, this is wrong. Standing near someone doesn't break cloak, only crouch.
Can't mount cause you're stuck in combat.also:
cast hurricane and get on your mount and ride around, they cant escape and are seen and pulled out of stealth immediately.
The area is too small to be effective for most of them, if you even know where to use them. Of course you can always just move 5m and cloak again.also:
cast area of effect abilities all around, it pulls us out of stealth
Are you serious? This absolute DOES NOT work.also:
cast light attack all around constantly it pulls our out of stealth.
This is also 100% wrong, you can cloak through guards all day. They only see through crouch.the list goes on and on and on and on and on .....
cloak and stealth cannot be maintained.
also try standing next to any guards, we cant maintain cloak near guards ...
none of the things you said are correct. i outlined several methods that do work.
im sory but those ways of bringing people out of stealth work and they work a little too good.
everything breaks stealth, everything.
The thread isn't about stealth. It's about a specific NB skill and morph called shadowy disguise bud. And none of those things you said work against it.
The thread isn't really about the skill called cloak. It is about wanting a skill nerfed because one chooses to not use the hard counters designed to be used against the skill Essentially, bring the game down to ones level. We now this because of the lame excuse the OP provides that falsely makes it appear there is potions to reveal a cloaked NB.
Ironically, those of us that have learned to use the counters find them very effective and scratch our wondering how some people find this to be so challenging. It is fun hunting and killing NBs that try to cloak away. PvP is supposed to be about challenge and unpredictability. PvE is for the predictable combat.
Not sure I agree with this. There are lots of bad NB out there so of course there are lots of cannon fodder potatoes that give the illusion that cloak is easy to counter. But outside of detect pots a good NB won't be stopped from cloaking. Just cause you run down some nb zerglings that panic and run in predictable directions doesn't mean much. I can probably find a 1vX post from a nb on these very forums within the first page or two showing them using cloak to eliminate whole raids almost and could point to that using your logic to show its op.
Cloak does need retuned. It's either op in that, sure they won't kill you with it if your decent but a good nb that knows how to use shade and other tools can always reset the fight. Or it is completely worthless cause of detect pots and all the aoe being thrown out around an objective. Honestly detect pots should go. Easy hard counters shouldn't exist. Same reason old dk wings went. Cause I'm sick of hearing about a potion nulliffying cloak and how there isnt a potion that does that for streak. And aoe dots shouldn't break it either. Only direct damage aoe with maybe jabs and overload heavy attack being exceptions. But then a fatigue mechanic implemented to where the NB is punished when caught by those soft counters but is still usable when the ground dots get stacked on objectives.
Fyi cloak got an indirect buff relative to streak if the predicted single target dot meta comes to fruition. Streak won't let you escape dots, cloak will, or at least suppress their damage for as long as it is up so being able to perma stack it with no penalty starts to look like a major advantage. More people hopping on that train may have to drop aoe for the new powerful single target dots. AOE dots were nerfed as well so even more incentive to not have them on your bars in pvp.
Obviously I come across some skilled players that get away from me and even kill me. To suggest otherwise would be absurd. But to suggest that a skill should be nerfed because a skilled player got the better of me using that skill seems even more absurd. BTW, that skilled NB also used more than just cloak which is a major point where your argument fails.
I am not even touching the preposterous connection you are trying to make by stating cloak got buffed relatively to steak because I laugh at people who try to catch me when I use streak. Yes, your reply will be less experienced zergilngs are the ones who cannot catch me when I use streak but that would just prove my point.
Not sure how it proves your point bud. You need to take the skill potential and synergies into account when balancing. Snipe got nerfed into the ground cause of claok. Also my point is even incompetent NB are carried by the skill because there is no penalty to being caught by a soft counter. They can just keep spamming till they get away sometimes. Good NBs honestly would hardly be affected out side of if they wanted to keep it up constantly it would take extra resources just like sorcs do if they streak 2 or more times in a row.
And if you don't realize cloak is going to have an advantage in a dot meta especially if it remains spammable to avoid all that dot damage I can't help you. Probably see you in here crying cause some zerg all just hit you with the new entropy and soul trap and you died even even though you were able to streak away.
Naa, your point was a good NB (skilled player) won't be stopped from cloaking. That got shot down really hard because that skilled player is using more than cloak to escape so now you are insinuating a incompetent NB is carried by the skill can reliably escape a skilled player and that somehow the hard counters to cloak are somehow only soft counters. It seems more that you are twisting fact into fantasy.
First off the only hard counter is detect pots. Everything else is a soft counter that has to be used properly without guaranteed success. Doesn't sound like you understand the difference in soft vs hard counters. Just cause it breaks cloak doesn't mean it is a hard counter. The skill still fired and had some effect.
I stopped right here because it is clear it is not me that lacks a fundamental understanding of the hard counters to cloak. If your understanding of the counters are this wrong the rest was not worth reading. Lack of knowledge is not an excuse.
One example is mage light and it's morphs. I pull you out of cloak the game does not permit cloak to for several seconds. That by definition is a hard counter. To bad solid facts mess up your misinformation.
Granted, I do understand it takes effort to learn to use the counters effectively. That is why some players have better success than others. Especially so when up against a decent player vs one that is lesser experienced. This is what divides many on this argument. I suppose It is easier to ask for the game to be made easier as it seems is the intention of this thread..1 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Streak for sorcs > is what dodgeroll is for nightblades.
Shields for sorcs> is what cloak is for nightblades.
Want to know why there's no cost fatigue on shields? Because it's an awful idea.
Same for cloak.
Streak is nothing like Dodge. CLOAK is like dodge. When you dodge or cloak, it makes an unlimited number of attacks miss you. When you streak, everything still hits. This is a totally absurd analogy.
Streak utilizes mobility to escape.
Dodgeroll utilizes mobility to escape.
Cloak has no mobility. When cast it's a damage mitigation tool.
Shield has no mobility. When cast it's is a damage mitigation tool.
Cloak has no mobility..? What is this I don't even...
Cloak lets you move in any direction without being seen.
Streak doesn't let you escape, it lets you reposition. If you already have a lot of distance, that's the only time streak lets you escape, and even then it can be countered.
Cloak offers significantly more mobility benefits than streak.
Streak doesn't let you escape? Bruh where do you people come from are you talking about mobs still being agro in Overland?1 -
ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Ok my last comment as my IQ is decreasing every time I read a anti-cloak comment.
Y'all talk about detection pots and magelight radius as if it's the only counters.
ANY AOE SKILL THATS HITS A CLOAK NIGHTBLADE PULLS THEM OUT OF CLOAK.
In cloak they can only move at normal speed, just use your mind and think he was in this position 1 second ago, how far can he walk? And then AoE that area. Spoiler, you'll get him most the time.4