Do You Think the Healer Changes Should Make it to Live as is?

TheNightflame · July 2019

We got not so much as a tweak this week, and with changes to the master resto to compensate for the springs change, it looks like zos wants to push forward with what we have on PTS.

So many people have been so verbal already, and detailed in their explanations regarding how the changes are incredibly poor, but zos hasn't done so much as mention there are more healing changes to be made this week.

Let's play a numbers game this time, do you think these healer changes should make it to live as is?

Slowbromance · July 2019

No

I kind of want another option. I agree that the grand healing mechanic change was needed, but reducing its heal was not. I think there should have been changes to resto staff passives if this much was going to be changed for the abilities it has.

People may argue that other weapons don't have passive changes when their abilities change, but each damage weapon has its own play style. Even destro staff has variety through its different elements.

Restoration staff is the only weapon line that provides healing abilities to supplement a healer's toolkit, and the bread and butter abilities of the resto staff have been diminished this chapter. All I want are alternatives showing that the healing role is valued. So far it seems like that's not the case.

TheNightflame · July 2019

No

I did only two options because the question is "all or none".

This week's patch notes and the actions before this one implied things are close to ready for live, if you think they're ready for live, great! you can vote yes.

if you don't think the healing changes are ready for live, then you're in the no boat.

TheNightflame · July 2019

No

@cheemers would you be ok to elaborate your yes? So far the only arguments by people who *wholeheartedly* agree with the changes are "people will adapt." and that's it, or something similar. Some people are iffy, but you're saying you agree 100% so far, so I'm curious.

cheemers · July 2019

Yes

TheNightflame wrote: »

@cheemers would you be ok to elaborate your yes? So far the only arguments by people who *wholeheartedly* agree with the changes are "people will adapt." and that's it, or something similar. Some people are iffy, but you're saying you agree 100% so far, so I'm curious.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/485619/why-is-there-no-counter-to-major-mending/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/486435/healing-ward-needs-adjustment/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483959/healing-spring-bots-having-a-meltdown/p1

Throughout this PTS patch cycle I've been arguing for a reigning in of current Live's easy and mindless overhealing. There should be more of a skill curve for effective endgame healers, both PvE and PvP, than spamming a single super effective AoE heal that stacks with itself and will heal both attrition damage and burst all the same. It homogenises healing and makes it to where a potato with opposable thumbs can do an absolutely fine job. The pts changes, including healing springs, non-consumed single orb and the recent healing ward changes, I'm in full agreement with.

Unfortunately you've made a very binary yes / no poll and IMO the changes need to be extended further to look at Echoing Vigor from 9x stam DDs potentially making 2x dedicated healers redundant, but they've already mentioned in today's patch notes that they are looking into that.

TheNightflame · July 2019

No

I appreciate your response and agree with how you can heal a majority of content with simply a grand healing spam, but where skill comes into play is buff uptimes, debuff uptimes, and quick reactive burst healing. I agree that more should go into keeping groups alive than 1 skill doing the job in a lot of cases, but using that to justify the changes is grossly oversimplifying things.

Skilled gameplay, at present, involves knowing the fights, anticipating damage phases, cleverly layering hots when needed, and buffing and debuffing when it's not. Skilled gameplay after this patch will be "have you placed all your hots and buffs and things down? ok, time to combat prayer spam to heal through the mechanics that are still possible to heal through".

While the changes make it so one skill being spammed won't carry you through content anymore, it greatly reduces what skilled gameplay had the potential to be, and replaces one overly spammed skill by poor players, to good players too now spamming a skill, whether necessarily or not.

Note that this was all said without touching on DDs off healing. That, to me, is a separate issue/red-herring that, in my opinion, ZOS is falling for adjusting instead of adjusting healers themselves.

cheemers · July 2019

Yes

TheNightflame wrote: »

I appreciate your response and agree with how you can heal a majority of content with simply a grand healing spam, but where skill comes into play is buff uptimes, debuff uptimes, and quick reactive burst healing. I agree that more should go into keeping groups alive than 1 skill doing the job in a lot of cases, but using that to justify the changes is grossly oversimplifying things.

Skilled gameplay, at present, involves knowing the fights, anticipating damage phases, cleverly layering hots when needed, and buffing and debuffing when it's not. Skilled gameplay after this patch will be "have you placed all your hots and buffs and things down? ok, time to combat prayer spam to heal through the mechanics that are still possible to heal through".

While the changes make it so one skill being spammed won't carry you through content anymore, it greatly reduces what skilled gameplay had the potential to be, and replaces one overly spammed skill by poor players, to good players too now spamming a skill, whether necessarily or not.

Note that this was all said without touching on DDs off healing. That, to me, is a separate issue/red-herring that, in my opinion, ZOS is falling for adjusting instead of adjusting healers themselves.

I do a lot of organised PvP, and healing springs spam is a huge problem enabling massive number stacking in a single spot for accidental free over healing, which destabilises the server performance for everyone else.

I'm a firm believer that if you can balance around the *unknown quantities* of how a real player will behave with a skill, you can then adjust the *known quantities* of a preprogrammed trial or dungeon's difficulty if need be.

Additionally, I think server stability and performance is a big priority because if it's too laggy to play it doesn't matter what the skill's numbers mean. Apologies if this isn't the argument you're looking for but I'm tired of passionately arguing for healing diversification and finesse in multiple threads, so please excuse me if I don't continue.

Iskiab · July 2019

No

Need more poll options. If they let mutagen hit more players, nerf healing ward as it is on PTS and do what they said they’d do at the beginning of the patch notes I’d say yes.

If it’s exactly as it is on PTS I’d say no.

Change is good, I wouldn’t sweat the changes too much. They just haven’t messed with healing like they have with dps so healers aren’t used to change and got too comfortable.

TheNightflame · July 2019

No

Like I've said earlier, but with other words, the poll is two options because it just comes down to: is more work needed? or; push it to live.

VampiricByNature · July 2019

No

I am only unhappy with the healing changes because they further exclude the healer role from pve 4 man activities. No one wants a healer in most 4 man groups and none of these changes will stop that mindset. The mmo trinity of tank/dps/healer has been broken for awhile now but these changes do not create a fix.
They will make lower skill groups suffer more in pve. High skill individuals will indeed adapt- but I cannot say whether or not they will have healers per se. More dps/healer hybrids.

Tanks have tons of utility that overlaps into the healing role- batallion defender for a gear example. I just wish the healer could be as valued of a role as the tank is. When the tank fails, the group fails. When the healer fails... well. In only certain situations does the group fail. Particularly in 4 man content.

I will adapt and have created a tank so I can enjoy a utility role. But sadly my main is a dps now. If I'm going to have a static rotation, I might as well work on my dps.

snarkomatic · July 2019

No

When people come in armed to the teeth with opinions about "potato healers" and then admit they don't even play healers, I can only assume they are trolling.

peacenote · July 2019

No

I agree that polls that attempt to measure at least the sentiment on the forums are more helpful than the same few people (either for or against) repeating comments which makes it difficult to exhibit how much concern there really is or isn't out there.

I made a couple of polls which I'll also reference here with summarized results as they currently stand. They were intended to help quantify the different nuances of the healing changes.

Poll 1: What CONCERNS you about the proposed healing changes?

124 voters are specifically unhappy for one or multiple reasons
28 voters say nothing; they are very happy with the changes

Poll 2: What EXCITES you about the proposed healing changes?

65 voters specifically like at least one thing about the proposed healing changes
98 voters say nothing; they are incredibly unhappy with the changes

There are also voters in each poll who said "Other" or weren't aware of the healing changes when they took the poll. What this data tells me is that a large percentage of the voting community is not really happy with the changes the way they are being implemented, but there is broader agreement that some kind of adjustment to healing would be OK and/or desirable.

I really believe that this core sentiment -- we can collectively get behind changes to healing as a community, but right now the changes seem too drastic to many of us who enjoy the healing role as it is today and adjustments could make them more palatable to more of us -- is being lost in the dramatically vocal (and in my opinion, largely unfair and inaccurate) debates about healers needing to "git gud." The irony of this is that I'm seeing some of the best healers in our community (the ones who will most easily be able to adapt) taking the time to speak out with detailed explanations, because they have a broader perspective and are considering healing from all angles: PvE, PvP, end game, casual play, PUGs, etc.

TheNightflame · July 2019

No

peacenote wrote: »

[...] The irony of this is that I'm seeing some of the best healers in our community (the ones who will most easily be able to adapt) taking the time to speak out with detailed explanations, because they have a broader perspective and are considering healing from all angles: PvE, PvP, end game, casual play, PUGs, etc.

^ yes

iLLcrime · July 2019

No

If these changes go live as is (which is looking like they will be), I'm done. Throwing healers into a place where they're even less needed than they currently are isn't the direction I want to continue to be a part of.

BlueRaven · July 2019

No

No and the tanking changes are bad as well.

Razorback174 · July 2019

No

There's no point in playing a healer with this update. The role has become trivialized and a liability in all content now. It's beyond a joke at this point.

Add that to stripping all classes of any semblance of identity, and we're well on our way to a bland, lifeless game of DPS online. Hell, all that's left now is to nerf tanks into pure uselessness, and we'll be there in no time at all.

But I guess that's an easy way for them to finally balance the game. Everyone playing the exact same role (DPS), everyone using the exact same abilities (with the only difference being the shades of color they use). All they had to do was destroy nearly everything that made this game unique to get there...

Wuuffyy · July 2019

No

I dps and tank only but even I think this an over the top, unnecessary destruction of a whole playstyle that was already underplayed and underutilized. But to be expected from ZOS honestly. I'm sure it will get better tho. They just failed on this approach.

peacenote · July 2019

No

Iskiab wrote: »

They just haven’t messed with healing like they have with dps so healers aren’t used to change and got too comfortable.

As a Templar healer with a PvE focus who has seen a steady stream of nerfs to my healing toolkit, I would respectfully disagree.

I also seem to recall various times in healing history when our roles were pretty different from where they stand right now. There was at time when crit was a key stat for a healer, orbs weren't available as a healing option, and there was a pretty painful transition for all of us healers when we all got hit with the sustain nerf bat... to name a few adjustments. Anyone else still around that remembers when we ran dual wield on front bar and resto staff on back bar?? I could be wrong, but I think the lightning staff back bar "meta" has been around a lot longer that orbs have been.

In my opinion, the Morrowind sustain nerf is the awful gift that keeps on giving and has taken us to this next round of horrible changes for healers. Templar shards became more required for other roles to sustain, so the orb changes were made to allow other healing/support roles to be viable outside of Templar, which ended up becoming the meta due to the fact that they healed AND provided resources at the same time.

I know that's an extremely simplified version of things :P but my point is that while the springs/orbs meta seems like it has been around for a while, it really hasn't been that long in the grand scheme of the game and us healers have weathered a lot of changes as well. There is something about these changes that is causing folks to be more vocal than usual and I don't think it is just because the role is being somewhat disrupted. That's happened before and to a certain extent we all know some disruption is necessary to keep the game fresh.

Slowbromance · July 2019

No

peacenote wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

They just haven’t messed with healing like they have with dps so healers aren’t used to change and got too comfortable.

As a Templar healer with a PvE focus who has seen a steady stream of nerfs to my healing toolkit, I would respectfully disagree. I also seem to recall various times in healing history when our roles were pretty different from where they stand right now.

To be fair, the least affected classes this patch for healing are Warden and Templar in that order. Warden and Templar will be the new meta PvE healers, and Warden will be meta PvP due to their native AoE heals that were buffed or unaffected this patch.

I main a Templar as well, PvP mostly, but I'm very passionate about what these changes "mean" to healers as a whole. It will reduce diversity and for most pve content, healers will be a novelty. The moment new DPS get vigor after running random battlegrounds they will slot it to level and heal themselves in dungeons, and the new healers will feel useless.

I already see new healers struggle to figure out what they need to do as is, and seeming useless will just discourage them from the role altogether.

I agree that change is good to keep gameplay from becoming stagnant, but the changes this patch are frustrating because I know what it will mean for diversity in healing.

darkblue5 · July 2019

No

Given that ZOS's position in the 5.1.3 natch potes is basically also no... this poll seems a bit odd. Clearly the dps/off-heal plan is getting looked at though that's hard to prevent fully. Having a tank/dps able to slot the Omni-Orb is certainly awkward for healers. What healers may need is some sort of expensive dps support spammable ala Orbs. Sadly, that'd still spike overall dps if it was worth using but...

I think the overall direction change could work out in the end and the game has overall vastly improved over the years terms of combat and I'm willing to trust in the process. (I've been playing a lot longer than I've had a working forum account.)

danara · July 2019

No

If they want to change orb OK, the new orb is not great but it is decent, i would love to be capable of droping 2 when my tank is separated from the group but we will manage that

But the Grand Healing springs are just stupids, they need to rework every combats that are designed around spamming this ability (Best example : vHoF execute phase), they need to rework all the weapon design with healing springs (Rip Master Resto Staff), and they need to at least make grand healing have a healing output equal to twice as it is now,

Like that : okay you cant spam it anymore and be on multiple location, but the burst healing output is nerfed but will be enough... And pls nerf self heal and make healer relevant ! What is the point to have some one suporting your a** if you can do better alone ?!

Jodynn · July 2019

No

Absolutely not; if you disagree you aren't affected by it.

SassiestAssassin · July 2019

No

absolutely not. These changes were not well thought out in the context of endgame PvE at least. When the best of the best healers can’t keep people alive during boss execute phases (even with all DPS using Ring of Protection) what hope do any mid-tier and beginner healers have?

Why nerf the skills when you haven’t adjusted the content yet?

I think this is where the trend of blaming PvP comes into play, because from a PvE standpoint it makes no sense.

Also RIP vSS, vHoF progression groups, looks like you’ll probably be sitting it out for 6 more months if this goes through.

apri · July 2019

No

peacenote wrote: »

I also seem to recall various times in healing history when our roles were pretty different from where they stand right now. There was at time when crit was a key stat for a healer, orbs weren't available as a healing option, and there was a pretty painful transition for all of us healers when we all got hit with the sustain nerf bat... to name a few adjustments. Anyone else still around that remembers when we ran dual wield on front bar and resto staff on back bar?? I could be wrong, but I think the lightning staff back bar "meta" has been around a lot longer that orbs have been.

In my opinion, the Morrowind sustain nerf is the awful gift that keeps on giving and has taken us to this next round of horrible changes for healers. Templar shards became more required for other roles to sustain, so the orb changes were made to allow other healing/support roles to be viable outside of Templar, which ended up becoming the meta due to the fact that they healed AND provided resources at the same time.

I know that's an extremely simplified version of things :P but my point is that while the springs/orbs meta seems like it has been around for a while, it really hasn't been that long in the grand scheme of the game and us healers have weathered a lot of changes as well. There is something about these changes that is causing folks to be more vocal than usual and I don't think it is just because the role is being somewhat disrupted. That's happened before and to a certain extent we all know some disruption is necessary to keep the game fresh.

That's a pretty accurate summary of things I recall, as well. Therefore a well-deserved "awesome". You also sum up a fair point with Morrowind. Quite a few problems that are being "curated" now are actually self-created by ZOS and go back to reactions on previous nerfs. Orbs come to mind to counter Morrowind's nerf ***, one of the most criticized and hated nerfs in ESO's history so far.

What really baffles me is that we are at a point where so many veterans are highly upset about performance issues and other core mechanics of the game. It certainly does not help to calm ppl down by taking a full class out of the game and to swing the nerf hammer relentlessly. The timing for such unpopular decisions could not be any worse.

It's not about certain skills anymore when healers are at stake to be no longer wanted in arenas, in dungeons and by looks of it even in their prime territory, in trials. ZOS has crossed a red line, they have gone too far. Adjustments where needed is one thing. But taking out a class as a whole out of consideration for any content the game has to offer should not even be considered to go live. This game has as little as 3 roles to choose from. It just cannot afford to nullify one of those three.

It is truly, truly worrying to look into the future of this game, based on the current development.

HaemaMagus · July 2019

No

No. Not as they are right now.

The only way I'd accept these changes is if we were buffed in other areas. So far only Warden, who was already in a better spot to begin with, has gotten what they needed.

Sorc healers still don't have a supplement to Grand healing/Orb change (mainly GH). NB's buffs are laughable. Refreshing Path has yet to have its one issue addressed: its too small! and Sap Essence? Well I can now slot it in 4mans if they even let me in the dungeon and not boot me out before I can even load in.

I can't say for the state of DK and Necro but I feel like they're in a slightly better spot than the above. And I'd rather not rant about Vigor.

If we were compensated in other areas of our kit sure. I'll take these and adapt. I played WoW I'm used to that. But we've been given the bare minimum of things that'd need to be addressed in both skills and play style over this PTS.

Revert the changes and wait until another PTS cycle where you can actually address them, please and thank you.

Gariele · July 2019

Yes

Well I selected Yes but what I think is in the middle.

Healing has become so simple. Spam springs, toss a bubble to the poor when it’s time. a combat prayer here and there. This isn’t effective healer play but tbh you didn’t “have” to do much more.

I think there will still need to be adjustments as it gets a lot more play time on the Live server. But all in all I think it will be a great change once the numbers/times get to a healthy spot.

Sandman929 · July 2019

No

No, but I think they're going to.

Sandman929 · July 2019

No

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

apri · July 2019

No

Sandman929 wrote: »

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

Maybe a desperate hope to improve performance is the driving force behind what we consider (wrongly?) a balance shift. But what if the healing changes have a slight, yet not meaningful enough impact? What will be next? Damage over time causes a lot of calculation, too. Let's get rid of wall of elements, bleeds, poisons...? You got the picture.

If an abilitiy is stressing servers, there are more answers to the question than just taking the ability out of play. Maybe the other solutions are more complex, expensive, difficult. But maybe they are worth looking at in the long run. Terminating one of three roles of this game for sake of performance is a high price to pay I must say. Servers better work top notch when the update goes live to make the price not too high.

Sandman929 · July 2019

No

apri wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

Maybe a desperate hope to improve performance is the driving force behind what we consider (wrongly?) a balance shift. But what if the healing changes have a slight, yet not meaningful enough impact? What will be next? Damage over time causes a lot of calculation, too. Let's get rid of wall of elements, bleeds, poisons...? You got the picture.

If an abilitiy is stressing servers, there are more answers to the question than just taking the ability out of play. Maybe the other solutions are more complex, expensive, difficult. But maybe they are worth looking at in the long run. Terminating one of three roles of this game for sake of performance is a high price to pay I must say. Servers better work top notch when the update goes live to make the price not too high.

Yeah, it's a very big "if". And with ZOS, the changes are in isolation despite what it seems the PvE community is saying about content requiring the the kind of tools that are being taken away. ZOS responds by saying they'll make adjustments if needed, but we all know that means the content might be in a bad state for a few months.

Jodynn · July 2019

No

Sandman929 wrote: »

apri wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

Maybe a desperate hope to improve performance is the driving force behind what we consider (wrongly?) a balance shift. But what if the healing changes have a slight, yet not meaningful enough impact? What will be next? Damage over time causes a lot of calculation, too. Let's get rid of wall of elements, bleeds, poisons...? You got the picture.

If an abilitiy is stressing servers, there are more answers to the question than just taking the ability out of play. Maybe the other solutions are more complex, expensive, difficult. But maybe they are worth looking at in the long run. Terminating one of three roles of this game for sake of performance is a high price to pay I must say. Servers better work top notch when the update goes live to make the price not too high.

Yeah, it's a very big "if". And with ZOS, the changes are in isolation despite what it seems the PvE community is saying about content requiring the the kind of tools that are being taken away. ZOS responds by saying they'll make adjustments if needed, but we all know that means the content might be in a bad state for a few months.

Heal Role being useless, flat, and boring
Heal checks being more-so about how many stam DDs using echoing vigor and RoP

Tanks dying because you don't get a springs because Healers gotta aim at the dps flying around and you only get one springs.

Just make the limit of aoes of springs spam to 1 IF in PVP, battle spirit OP, buff it.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Do You Think the Healer Changes Should Make it to Live as is?

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