Do You Think the Healer Changes Should Make it to Live as is?

Sandman929

No

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

apri wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

Maybe a desperate hope to improve performance is the driving force behind what we consider (wrongly?) a balance shift. But what if the healing changes have a slight, yet not meaningful enough impact? What will be next? Damage over time causes a lot of calculation, too. Let's get rid of wall of elements, bleeds, poisons...? You got the picture.

If an abilitiy is stressing servers, there are more answers to the question than just taking the ability out of play. Maybe the other solutions are more complex, expensive, difficult. But maybe they are worth looking at in the long run. Terminating one of three roles of this game for sake of performance is a high price to pay I must say. Servers better work top notch when the update goes live to make the price not too high.

Yeah, it's a very big "if". And with ZOS, the changes are in isolation despite what it seems the PvE community is saying about content requiring the the kind of tools that are being taken away. ZOS responds by saying they'll make adjustments if needed, but we all know that means the content might be in a bad state for a few months.

Heal Role being useless, flat, and boring
Heal checks being more-so about how many stam DDs using echoing vigor and RoP

Tanks dying because you don't get a springs because Healers gotta aim at the dps flying around and you only get one springs.

Just make the limit of aoes of springs spam to 1 IF in PVP, battle spirit OP, buff it.

I'm aware of all that, and as you can see I also voted "no". But what I'd like, and what's going to happen aren't the same thing. If it helps performance, I'm happier about it. I'm still not happy that the change isn't accompanied by addressing all the things you just said as well, but maybe they'll get to that in 6-9 months.

Jodynn

No

Sandman929 wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

apri wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Maybe "No" is a little too simple. Because if these changes are a significant step toward better performance I'd probably say yes.

Maybe a desperate hope to improve performance is the driving force behind what we consider (wrongly?) a balance shift. But what if the healing changes have a slight, yet not meaningful enough impact? What will be next? Damage over time causes a lot of calculation, too. Let's get rid of wall of elements, bleeds, poisons...? You got the picture.

If an abilitiy is stressing servers, there are more answers to the question than just taking the ability out of play. Maybe the other solutions are more complex, expensive, difficult. But maybe they are worth looking at in the long run. Terminating one of three roles of this game for sake of performance is a high price to pay I must say. Servers better work top notch when the update goes live to make the price not too high.

Yeah, it's a very big "if". And with ZOS, the changes are in isolation despite what it seems the PvE community is saying about content requiring the the kind of tools that are being taken away. ZOS responds by saying they'll make adjustments if needed, but we all know that means the content might be in a bad state for a few months.

Heal Role being useless, flat, and boring
Heal checks being more-so about how many stam DDs using echoing vigor and RoP

Tanks dying because you don't get a springs because Healers gotta aim at the dps flying around and you only get one springs.

Just make the limit of aoes of springs spam to 1 IF in PVP, battle spirit OP, buff it.

I'm aware of all that, and as you can see I also voted "no". But what I'd like, and what's going to happen aren't the same thing. If it helps performance, I'm happier about it. I'm still not happy that the change isn't accompanied by addressing all the things you just said as well, but maybe they'll get to that in 6-9 months.

Let's hope they actually listen to community feedback this time, I get your performance issue, but this would be a stupid thing to target, I think they are just doing 1 to 1 analysis damage and healing, and that's not going to work...

snarkomatic

No

Gariele wrote: »

Healing has become so simple. Spam springs, toss a bubble to the poor when it’s time. a combat prayer here and there. This isn’t effective healer play but tbh you didn’t “have” to do much more.

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? For one, it's objectively wrong when you're talking about endgame healing -- but for another, in what way do you think that spamming combat prayer for burst AoE heals is somehow going to make things more interesting than being able to utilize multiple casts of springs and orbs to either spread healing or stack numbers higher? I do not understand that logic, at all.

iLLcrime

No

snarkomatic wrote: »

Gariele wrote: »

Healing has become so simple. Spam springs, toss a bubble to the poor when it’s time. a combat prayer here and there. This isn’t effective healer play but tbh you didn’t “have” to do much more.

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? For one, it's objectively wrong when you're talking about endgame healing -- but for another, in what way do you think that spamming combat prayer for burst AoE heals is somehow going to make things more interesting than being able to utilize multiple casts of springs and orbs to either spread healing or stack numbers higher? I do not understand that logic, at all.

The people that regurgitate this nonsense most likely don't do any vet trials. They just run 4 man content, where healers aren't even wanted in the first place. It's getting old to see the same thing said from people who have zero idea on how it really is.

BalticBlues

No

Replacing Healing Springs spam by Vigor spam will not help performance at all.
Replacing Healing Springs spam by Vigor spam will not make healers more relevant.
Replacing Healing Springs spam by Vigor spam is just final proof of Elder Stamina Online.

Lilly_Elessa

No

Scrap all the healer changes, and this could be a fantastic patch. The WW and dps changes are ... Not great, but at least not catastrophic. Hell, I still want to be happy about this patch because there's a ton of great stuff coming for crafting and housing. The new gear sets look great, and I'm always happy to see useless gear sets get a revamp to make them worth looking at again.
But I am a healer. And I play PvE. And I'm getting patched out.

EatYourVegetables

No

I am rushing to finish my monster helm collection before this patch drops, because I don't think I'll be queuing much after.

I'm a mediocre healer and I only do PUG vet dungeons, not trials. I don't even use healing springs all that much but it is critical to save a wipe in certain circumstances. Especially when you are in a group with CP <300 that don't have optimized gear or a good understanding of the mechanics.

People will only tolerate a few wipes before they start rage chatting and dropping. Right now I can mostly prevent this situation, people may die but I can rapid rez them usually, and we can almost always finish the dungeon even if no one knows the mechanics. I just don't think i'll be able to do this after the patch drops.

If the motivation for this change was lag in cyrodiil, can't that be fixed another way? Perhaps a target cap of 6 people? Or is it the fact that so many players are spamming it that is the problem? I know each one is probably a radius query to the game's scene graph to find affected targets, and those can add up - but it seems like in trials/dungeons it shouldn't be a problem, so its just Cyrodiil that needs some fix.

apri

No

EatYourVegetables wrote: »

If the motivation for this change was lag in cyrodiil, can't that be fixed another way?

I'm not sure if that's the reason but if it is, the change won't solve the problem. There's been always ability stacking in Cyrodiil, to the point of madness. There has been caltrop stacks, springs stacks, vigor stacks and as long as there are spamable abilities, they will be stacked to the point of unplayability for everyone (on top of the coordinated ult stacks etc).

So I agree the solution must be found elsewhere. Not by deleting skill after skill to the point when we have no more abilities to play with.

BahometZ

No

The changes are atrocious for PvE and fine for PvP. Nuff said. Everyone I've seen who has been okay with the healing changes either isn't a healer, or is PvP oriented (Nothing wrong with PvP, I love it, and agree healing stacks in zergs/balls has been an issue).

Yeah in PvE we can adapt, no duh, like that's an issue. If I'm on fire, I can put it out, but maybe don't set me on fire in the first place.

There's been little explanation about what their plan is. There's no context that lets us know if this is a temporary pain point we'll be in for several months or if this is it for the foreseeable future.

They've buffed selfish heals and nuked group heals which are crucial to surviving peak damage points in vet trials. Are they gonna nerf Z'Maja execute damage? What will be the point of a true healer? Will healer roles be magplar hybrid heal/dps, and other dps will run vigor in packs?

The top-tier players who have already completed content will adapt, because their skillset and experience is what made them top-tier. But all the rest of us monkeys who are progressing and developing, getting runs under the belt and slowly getting to the higher rungs are getting shoved back down the ladder. Simple as. The level I'm talking about who will be hurt the most are those who maybe don't do spreadsheets and numbercrunch, but have a good understanding of their skills, have good sets, rotations, and with a couple of quality raid leaders can complete hard content.

BahometZ

No

EatYourVegetables wrote: »

I am rushing to finish my monster helm collection before this patch drops, because I don't think I'll be queuing much after.

I'm a mediocre healer and I only do PUG vet dungeons, not trials. I don't even use healing springs all that much but it is critical to save a wipe in certain circumstances. Especially when you are in a group with CP <300 that don't have optimized gear or a good understanding of the mechanics.

People will only tolerate a few wipes before they start rage chatting and dropping. Right now I can mostly prevent this situation, people may die but I can rapid rez them usually, and we can almost always finish the dungeon even if no one knows the mechanics. I just don't think i'll be able to do this after the patch drops.

If the motivation for this change was lag in cyrodiil, can't that be fixed another way? Perhaps a target cap of 6 people? Or is it the fact that so many players are spamming it that is the problem? I know each one is probably a radius query to the game's scene graph to find affected targets, and those can add up - but it seems like in trials/dungeons it shouldn't be a problem, so its just Cyrodiil that needs some fix.

This is a perfect example of the average player. This patch leaves these people behind. Not everyone has disposable time.

Ozby

No

peacenote wrote: »

I agree that polls that attempt to measure at least the sentiment on the forums are more helpful than the same few people (either for or against) repeating comments which makes it difficult to exhibit how much concern there really is or isn't out there.

I made a couple of polls which I'll also reference here with summarized results as they currently stand. They were intended to help quantify the different nuances of the healing changes.

Poll 1: What CONCERNS you about the proposed healing changes?

• 124 voters are specifically unhappy for one or multiple reasons
• 28 voters say nothing; they are very happy with the changes

Poll 2: What EXCITES you about the proposed healing changes?

• 65 voters specifically like at least one thing about the proposed healing changes
• 98 voters say nothing; they are incredibly unhappy with the changes

There are also voters in each poll who said "Other" or weren't aware of the healing changes when they took the poll. What this data tells me is that a large percentage of the voting community is not really happy with the changes the way they are being implemented, but there is broader agreement that some kind of adjustment to healing would be OK and/or desirable.

I really believe that this core sentiment -- we can collectively get behind changes to healing as a community, but right now the changes seem too drastic to many of us who enjoy the healing role as it is today and adjustments could make them more palatable to more of us -- is being lost in the dramatically vocal (and in my opinion, largely unfair and inaccurate) debates about healers needing to "git gud." The irony of this is that I'm seeing some of the best healers in our community (the ones who will most easily be able to adapt) taking the time to speak out with detailed explanations, because they have a broader perspective and are considering healing from all angles: PvE, PvP, end game, casual play, PUGs, etc.

This is the first time I have seen your polls and the first one I cannot even vote seems to be closed.

crazywolfpusher

Yes

I dont run vet trials so i dont really care about the changes. I even find the orb change needed. All that balls in the screen are visual noise.

However i do run vet hm dungeons and sometimes i find spring very useful, i guess will be using prayer for those situations (wrathstone dlc both dungeons need intensive healing on some bosses where spring was bis)

Also want to say, this change are good IF we consider "class indentity".
templars and wardens will be the best healers now, isnt that good?

Saril_Durzam

Yes

I think at the end, and switching things, we will do it. Maybe a DD hybrid, but we will do it.

TheNightflame

No

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I think at the end, and switching things, we will do it. Maybe a DD hybrid, but we will do it.

I'm sorry but I really don't see this as a thing of empowerment with adapting and making things work. Simply put, and with no explanation, healers lose A LOT of fun and A LOT of purpose.

little to no purpose + little to no fun is not something to overcome, it's something to move away from and on to the next thing

apri

No

crazywolfpusher wrote: »

Also want to say, this change are good IF we consider "class indentity".
templars and wardens will be the best healers now, isnt that good?

Neither of the two have skills comparable to healing springs. They have other bursty tools yes but that's not the same.

If ZOS had to change healers in any way, it would have been to improve their demand. The problem is that the change from (magicka-based) healing springs to (stamina-based) vigor heals does the opposite. It decreases demand for healers more than ever. That's why there's rising concerns that healing as a role shifts into the worst spot it has ever been with the changes on PTS atm.

So no, it is not good if one of three roles in the game becomes obsolete.

TankHealz2015

Yes

Great changes!
Absolutely!

We now have more group play style options: bring a full time healer, bring a half healer/half dps/or supporter, or everyone can slot a heal skill and bring your own heals.

Elite groups already run vet dlc hm dungeons with tank +3 dps -- (i.e. bring your own heals)
now with stronger self heals mid level players and maybe PUGs can also run this type of group.

Some elite players are running 3 dps with bring your own heals and they carry a 4th player for gold. (insane skills)

Imagine a day when all dungeon finder groups can be tank + 3 dps and everyone self heals = no more hour long que times?

In cyrodil you already have to 1) be tanky enough to survive, 2) bring your own healz, 3) dps

Maybe now for trials instead of 2 full time healers, we can run "bring your own heals" + an off-healer?

I support these changes.