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Cast Timed Ultimates Discussion

susmitds
susmitds
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Hey there,

I want to talk about the cast time of Ultimates, from I felt in PTS.
  1. The cast time is very noticeable. Players with higher ping will find it significantly harder to land ultimates. It is very hard to land ultimates without CC on PTS as you can pretty much walk away during the animation and break the range, without even dodge rolling.
  2. During lag already, even instant single-target abilities often fail to register. Dizzying Swing builds find it very hard to register hits with the slightest lag. Same thing will happening to ultimates in PvP.
  3. Even when paired with CC, it is seriously easy to break free and dodge/block ultimates.
  4. Some players might feel that it might make it easier for newer and average players to react to ultimates. On the other hand, if we look at live for example, it is newer and average players who mostly fall victim to cast-timed builds like Dizzying builds. It will not make much of a difference to good players when fighting weaker opponents outside of being an inconvenience and degrade the standard of gameplay. On the other hand, the average players won't be able to touch better players with ults.
  5. One justification some players is that it is to balance Onslaught. If Onslaught is overpowered without cast time, then it should balanced by standard means, rather than slap a cast time on all burst ultimates. If that is not an option, then maybe then only put cast time on Onslaught.
  6. All this will do is increase the performance gap with between high-ping players and low-ping players significantly.
  7. If cast-timed ultimates must stay, then they should applied to all burst ultimates, including Leap and Radial Sweep.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Not that ive gone through and tested every ultimate, but with the few I have used, not really noticed much of a difference tbh.

    Maybe because im used to being screwed over by other cast time abilities so im naturally more careful with cast times and rotation pacing. Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.
    Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on July 12, 2019 3:12PM
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Not that ive gone through and tested every ultimate, but with the few I have used, not really noticed much of a difference tbh.

    Maybe because im used to being screwed over by other cast time abilities so im naturally more careful with cast times and rotation pacing. Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.
    Do you live in US or EU / other?
    EU players has significantly more lag because PTS is in US, US player might well be better off on PTS as its an less used system, gameplay feel be more laggy in huge fights because of server and client slowdowns.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Rikumaru wrote: »
    Remove cast times on ultimates.

    Cast time on ults is one of the things, which seems fine on paper but does not work practically in real combat.

    It's not even fine on paper.What are you talking about?
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Hey there,

    1. If cast-timed ultimates must stay, then they should applied to all burst ultimates, including Leap and Radial Sweep.
    YES.
    (I mean, Leap got a long as flight time anyway lol)
    Rikumaru wrote: »
    Remove cast times on ultimates.

    NO.
    (this is just Ultimates, and in my experience it actually helps people with lag to get visual and impact queues)
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Heavy SnB/2H The Fervor
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Medium SnB/2H The Dragon
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvE : Medium DW/2H TBD
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Heavy SnB/2H The Fervor
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Medium SnB/2H The Dragon
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvE : Medium DW/2H TBD
  • sharquez
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    Cast time ultimates are a terrible idea. This does nothing to help the health of the game or combat. The game has had a fairly consistent rhythm since release and now all of a sudden for some arbitrary reason it was decided that Ultimate abilities, which need to charge up and can only be used intermittently, now need to have a cast time associated with them? Nope, back to the drawing board on this, and throw the cast time ideas in the trash.
    EP Magsorc - Never-Blinks
    EP Magcro- Ebony Maw The Manipulator
    EP Magplar - Sweet-Like-Honey
    EP Stamblade- Pure-paws
    EP MagDK- Rhys Redoran
    EP Stamsorc- Garnag Crow-Father
    EP Magblade- Dandos Direnni
    EP Stamplar- Luzrah gra-Shar
    EP StamDK- Verana Venomtongue
    EP Magden- Frozen-Frog
    EP Stamden- Dro Ma'Thra Savage
    EP DKTank- Sharquez
    EP NB Tank- Dead's Kin
    EP Magcro- Pluto Pollux
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    sharquez wrote: »
    Cast time ultimates are a terrible idea. This does nothing to help the health of the game or combat. The game has had a fairly consistent rhythm since release and now all of a sudden for some arbitrary reason it was decided that Ultimate abilities, which need to charge up and can only be used intermittently, now need to have a cast time associated with them? Nope, back to the drawing board on this, and throw the cast time ideas in the trash.

    i run solo and PUG about 90% of the time in Kaalgrontiid campaign.

    the "rythm" is generally despised by most player because "only the veterans and people with good ping" can ani-cancel ultimates (and other skills).... which then gets rebuted by the vets by "LOL L2P N00BS" (which is not completely false).


    don't trust me? come visit zone chat.


    my point is, i think (as somebody who uses animation cancelling just fine) having a cast time for ulti (just ulti) in Cyrodiil can help everyone enjoy combat... EVEN IF it's at the cost of re-learning the "rhythm" for veteran players.


    just let it go live and give it a shot. i'm getting tired reading a brand new thread on this subject on the forum lol
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Heavy SnB/2H The Fervor
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Medium SnB/2H The Dragon
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvE : Medium DW/2H TBD
  • susmitds
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    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    I play with 350 ping min(Oceanic issues, xD) and can animation cancel everything.
    Edited by susmitds on July 12, 2019 4:32PM
  • Myux
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    cast time ultis is by far one of the worst decisions you could have and its absolutely baffling as to why they thought it was a good idea. literally no one likes cast times unless theyre weird. you cant just add cast times to stuff arbitrarily and expect the game to function, especially with its server performance. soul harvest is the only other skill i have that does damage, and is the only skill i have that i can get to hit reliably if i manipulate the opponent into doing what i want them to do, and predict them well. if both of my damage skills are delayed, i have nothing to actually pressure with when i need it.

    and thats ignoring the fact that the cast times just clunk up the combat severely, prevent you from animation cancelling, and more importantly prevent you from so much as swapping your bar. and also theyre buggy as ***. im genuinely considering quitting the game if this makes it through because soul harvest is the only skill i have that NEEDS to work. if i wanted clunky garbage and a nonsensical pace, id play another pvp mmo like BDO or something.
    Dr. Pepper. The famous 23 flavor soda, has a lot of spinoff products, such as Diet Dr. Pepper. That’s not the topic here today. No we’re not talking about Diet Dr. Pepper barbecue sauce. But what we are talking about, is hot Dr. Pepper. That’s right, hot Dr. Pepper was originally introduced in the 1960’s as a winter beverage. Here’s some advertisements from the 1960’s showing about about Hot Dr. Pepper. However, it was short lived. But you still don’t believe me? You think this is a joke? Just go to the facts and questions article on the Dr. Pepper website. Anyway, I’m going to teach you how to make it. All you need is a Dr. Pepper; a can or bottle will be fine. And just proceed to open it, but DONT blow it up like I did. Cuz’ you know, Bad Dr. Pepper right there. Anyway, you want to heat up a pan, or anything, and just pour a little Dr. Pepper in there, as much as you want. Alright, and as soon as we did that, we’re gonna take a lemon and a knife and make a small slice, and then put it into the glass that you’re gonna puor the hot Dr. pepper in. When the Dr. Pepper starts sizzling or steaming up… That’s it. Just take it off, and pour it in your glass. And if you’re using a glass glass glass made of glass like I am, put it very slowly. Like, wait five seconds between each… Each spill, so it doesn’t melt, cus you know, when glass melts… Glass… yeah. Also if you try this at home, and your lemon makes a popping bubble, comment or like, heh, cuz you know, thumbs up for that. Just some more footage of the popping lemon… Yeah, and basically, this is hot Dr. Pepper. It tastes just like Dr. Pepper, only it’s hot, kind of like tea. Brings out the cherry flavor. Little carbination, and I’ll see you next time. Later!
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    zaria wrote: »
    Not that ive gone through and tested every ultimate, but with the few I have used, not really noticed much of a difference tbh.

    Maybe because im used to being screwed over by other cast time abilities so im naturally more careful with cast times and rotation pacing. Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.
    Do you live in US or EU / other?
    EU players has significantly more lag because PTS is in US, US player might well be better off on PTS as its an less used system, gameplay feel be more laggy in huge fights because of server and client slowdowns.

    Im EU, but again, this might be in my favor. Everything is a bit laggy on the PTS for me anyway, so cast times are just an addition to preexisting latency.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    sharquez wrote: »
    Cast time ultimates are a terrible idea. This does nothing to help the health of the game or combat. The game has had a fairly consistent rhythm since release and now all of a sudden for some arbitrary reason it was decided that Ultimate abilities, which need to charge up and can only be used intermittently, now need to have a cast time associated with them? Nope, back to the drawing board on this, and throw the cast time ideas in the trash.

    No those either need to be burned or dissolved in acid.The can be retrieved from the trash.We don't want that do we?
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.

    that's why i'm in it for the newbies. i'd rather have a full Cyro with newbies and zergs; than an empty Cyro with a few veteran elite meta players.
    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.

    but the DoT is so low.... and u can just use Carve can't you? better DoT, better initial hit (and cheaper? not sure)
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Heavy SnB/2H The Fervor
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvP : Medium SnB/2H The Dragon
    Dragonhold 5.2.6 PvE : Medium DW/2H TBD
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    Davadin wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.

    that's why i'm in it for the newbies. i'd rather have a full Cyro with newbies and zergs; than an empty Cyro with a few veteran elite meta players.
    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.

    but the DoT is so low.... and u can just use Carve can't you? better DoT, better initial hit (and cheaper? not sure)

    It is the newbies who won't be able to land ultis now, i can still hide the animation significantly with heavy attack if have less lag. All this does is help the NA players and EU players close to server and screw everybody else.
    Edited by susmitds on July 12, 2019 4:46PM
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    Myux wrote: »
    cast time ultis is by far one of the worst decisions you could have and its absolutely baffling as to why they thought it was a good idea. literally no one likes cast times unless theyre weird. you cant just add cast times to stuff arbitrarily and expect the game to function, especially with its server performance. soul harvest is the only other skill i have that does damage, and is the only skill i have that i can get to hit reliably if i manipulate the opponent into doing what i want them to do, and predict them well. if both of my damage skills are delayed, i have nothing to actually pressure with when i need it.

    and thats ignoring the fact that the cast times just clunk up the combat severely, prevent you from animation cancelling, and more importantly prevent you from so much as swapping your bar. and also theyre buggy as ***. im genuinely considering quitting the game if this makes it through because soul harvest is the only skill i have that NEEDS to work. if i wanted clunky garbage and a nonsensical pace, id play another pvp mmo like BDO or something.

    If it goes live, I would surprise if ZOS is not forced to revert it in a hotfix. In just PTS stuff, the cast time is feeling screwy. In poplocked Cyro on live, rip ultis.
  • robpr
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    If they won't cause lock in animation bug (like shields) the change is good not counting the Cyro lag. Instead of ani-cancelling Dawny and leave the opponent confused what exactly hit them and calling them to l2p, now everybody has at least chance to react. A good trade for the power they provide while being avaiable to everyone. Class ultis shouldnt be like that though.
  • TheTruestKing
    This time to react discussion leads me to believe some people are with some friends after one player with their buffs down. I've never.....Since June 15, 2015... Have i ever been hit with a dawny and and not knew what happened. I got caught lacking without my hurricane. So when we Ani-cancel Jedi say l2p. We're being genuine. Stop chasing people with your buffs down. Don't run 11k physical res on your build with no shield maim protection. When you get hit calmly press both triggers and hit your healing ward or vigor. Don't attack when your 35% cc then heal. This is learning to play. Your welcome.
  • TheTruestKing
    "ONE MORE THING" in my Jackie Chan adventures voice. Can someone upload a video from the pts showing sub assault combo with dawny on stamden. I need a good laugh.
  • Cinbri
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Hey there,
    1. If cast-timed ultimates must stay, then they should applied to all burst ultimates, including Leap and Radial Sweep.
    If that's would fix 2-3years old bug of Sweep constantly missing to hit anyone inside - I all up for it.
  • Nerftheforums
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    Probably the worse change zos made in years. It *** up combat so badly it feels like going from a Ferrari to a Smart. Awful.
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    Davadin wrote: »
    sharquez wrote: »
    Cast time ultimates are a terrible idea. This does nothing to help the health of the game or combat. The game has had a fairly consistent rhythm since release and now all of a sudden for some arbitrary reason it was decided that Ultimate abilities, which need to charge up and can only be used intermittently, now need to have a cast time associated with them? Nope, back to the drawing board on this, and throw the cast time ideas in the trash.

    i run solo and PUG about 90% of the time in Kaalgrontiid campaign.

    the "rythm" is generally despised by most player because "only the veterans and people with good ping" can ani-cancel ultimates (and other skills).... which then gets rebuted by the vets by "LOL L2P N00BS" (which is not completely false).


    don't trust me? come visit zone chat.


    my point is, i think (as somebody who uses animation cancelling just fine) having a cast time for ulti (just ulti) in Cyrodiil can help everyone enjoy combat... EVEN IF it's at the cost of re-learning the "rhythm" for veteran players.


    just let it go live and give it a shot. i'm getting tired reading a brand new thread on this subject on the forum lol

    This. Anyone can animation cancel and call themselves a baws.
    Power Wealth And Influence.
  • John_Falstaff
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    Davadin wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.

    that's why i'm in it for the newbies. i'd rather have a full Cyro with newbies and zergs; than an empty Cyro with a few veteran elite meta players.
    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.

    but the DoT is so low.... and u can just use Carve can't you? better DoT, better initial hit (and cheaper? not sure)

    I understand the point of view, but I don't share it. Making the game a more casual experience will just make said veterans shrug and leave, and soon ESO will be a sandbox while everyone with a bit more experience will leave for greener pastures. Might as well make PvP turn based, will give newbies some time to think their moves over. ESO always had fast-paced combat as a selling point; equalize everyone by forcing the combat to be slow and viscous, and it won't have anything going for it.
  • Sharee
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    Davadin wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.

    that's why i'm in it for the newbies. i'd rather have a full Cyro with newbies and zergs; than an empty Cyro with a few veteran elite meta players.
    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.

    but the DoT is so low.... and u can just use Carve can't you? better DoT, better initial hit (and cheaper? not sure)

    I understand the point of view, but I don't share it. Making the game a more casual experience will just make said veterans shrug and leave, and soon ESO will be a sandbox while everyone with a bit more experience will leave for greener pastures. Might as well make PvP turn based, will give newbies some time to think their moves over. ESO always had fast-paced combat as a selling point; equalize everyone by forcing the combat to be slow and viscous, and it won't have anything going for it.

    Anything that makes the game easier for the ones getting killed also makes it harder for the ones doing the killing.

    True veterans and good players welcome the added challenge, instead of running from it.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Davadin wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    Zone chat is filled with mostly newbies, who dont have the slightest clue how to PvP and believe in zerging.

    that's why i'm in it for the newbies. i'd rather have a full Cyro with newbies and zergs; than an empty Cyro with a few veteran elite meta players.
    Davadin wrote: »
    Right now stampede is *** me over more than anything.


    huh? why? Stampede is *** in PTS.... im still sticking to Crit Strike with the new buff.

    Like volly its now a viable AOE weapon ability to make the weapon hold an enchant proccing from the offbar. So its part of the PVE rotation now, if you do 2h backbar.

    but the DoT is so low.... and u can just use Carve can't you? better DoT, better initial hit (and cheaper? not sure)

    I understand the point of view, but I don't share it. Making the game a more casual experience will just make said veterans shrug and leave, and soon ESO will be a sandbox while everyone with a bit more experience will leave for greener pastures. Might as well make PvP turn based, will give newbies some time to think their moves over. ESO always had fast-paced combat as a selling point; equalize everyone by forcing the combat to be slow and viscous, and it won't have anything going for it.

    Anything that makes the game easier for the ones getting killed also makes it harder for the ones doing the killing.

    True veterans and good players welcome the added challenge, instead of running from it.

    Not particularly. You're forgetting that next minute, the one's getting killed is the one who's trying to kill, and will find themselves in same situation. And if even a newbie has no issues avoiding an ultimate, then newbies themselves will have no chance using it against veterans. As a result, the ultimate will be useless for both sides and won't ever be slotted by anyone; and when the toolkit will shrink to 'no fun playstyles left' level... you guessed it, veterans will shrug and leave. If someone enjoys fast-paced combat, he'd be a dimwit to accept the challenge like "now we made everything slow for you, try to get kills like that" - it's not a challenge, it's an inconvenience. He'll either find other tools to keep enjoying his playstyle, or if no tools left, will ditch the whole thing.
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