it died a slow death I knew the second that NDA thing dropped it was game over for the program. didn't expect anything from the program so I'm not disappointed I actually forgot this was a thing till I saw this thread if it matters I signed up for the program too but that was months ago when the class rep program was still relevant.

Alcast wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The class rep discords were closed because ZOS does not officially support the discords. Wheter they choose to open up section for this here on the forum is up to them.

The program is still active but I doubt you will see much of it because all the stuff is under NDA. I was kinda surprised anyway that ZOS released notes on the forum even though everything was technically already under NDA.

Also please remember, Reps are here to give feedback, what ZOS does with the feedback is totally up to them.

I thought the purpose of a representative was to collate and communicate the playerbases thoughts. Seems like the current system is just to give their own feedback on NDA items rather than really represent?

The people that were picked got chosen because they have experience and knowledge about something (kappa). The reps shoud represent the playerbase, which they do with their knowledge, it never really said anywhere that we should farm feedback from the player base at least to my knowledge. Some Reps chose to open up discords to better farm feedback, but that was totally optional and the reps own idea. I for one never participated in the discords because if I want to get feedback I will ask people that I am confident in they know the game rather then wasting 10h/week unpaid monitoring discords that are full of spam from players you have never heard of before.

If ZOS wants to do that, they should and will open a forum section for this particular issue.

I think the biggest problem is that people still think we actually do make decisions on how the game is balanced, but that is not true at all. We are just here to give feedback, what ZOS does with the feedback is totally up to them. They can read it, maybe get some good points off it, or if they want just completely ignore it, after all it is their game.

I completely agree with competent players providing feedback separately, not in a public community rep system. For example I would want a top trials guild to give feedback on the competative trials scene / top players to give feedback on classes. But this is a completely different structure to a player representative system. For 2 way communication you need people who can adequately represent the community thoughts and not have the NDA in place to prevent discussion. (If comparing ones which work from other games)

Here is the direct quote at the start of the class rep system.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As a reminder, the class reps will be collating top concerns for every class to present to the Dev Team; they will not be making game-altering decisions, but they will make sure your voice is heard. After each quarterly meeting, the plan will be to publish notes so everyone can see what was discussed, and you can ask questions to the group.

I just don't think anyone is thinking about the system in the way you describe (Not to seem rude. I'm sure the information you give zos is useful but I think everyone can see it affects very little from the pass years of results) .

Alcast wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

The class rep discords were closed because ZOS does not officially support the discords. Wheter they choose to open up section for this here on the forum is up to them.

The program is still active but I doubt you will see much of it because all the stuff is under NDA. I was kinda surprised anyway that ZOS released notes on the forum even though everything was technically already under NDA.

Also please remember, Reps are here to give feedback, what ZOS does with the feedback is totally up to them.

I thought the purpose of a representative was to collate and communicate the playerbases thoughts. Seems like the current system is just to give their own feedback on NDA items rather than really represent?

The people that were picked got chosen because they have experience and knowledge about something (kappa). The reps shoud represent the playerbase, which they do with their knowledge, it never really said anywhere that we should farm feedback from the player base at least to my knowledge. Some Reps chose to open up discords to better farm feedback, but that was totally optional and the reps own idea. I for one never participated in the discords because if I want to get feedback I will ask people that I am confident in they know the game rather then wasting 10h/week unpaid monitoring discords that are full of spam from players you have never heard of before.

If ZOS wants to do that, they should and will open a forum section for this particular issue.

I think the biggest problem is that people still think we actually do make decisions on how the game is balanced, but that is not true at all. We are just here to give feedback, what ZOS does with the feedback is totally up to them. They can read it, maybe get some good points off it, or if they want just completely ignore it, after all it is their game.

Well, considering the fact when ZOS first created the Class rep program, they actually put a post up which actually linked each and every discord the reps had so interested players could go and add to the discussion and tell the Class Reps what their pain points were in the came and have their voice added tells me that YES, ZOS did intend for you guys to actually talk to and represent the players of this game and field that communication.

Instead, we've gotten a bunch of class reps only interested in representing their own agendas in the end game community and the hell with the average, disabled or new player.

Yes, ZOS is going to do what ZOS wants to do, and I have to wonder just how much of the advice they are being given is being ignored based on the fact that at least THEY are taking every players skill level into account when they are making changes and not just caving to the end game Trials or PVP community.

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

The issue is how do you get around that? Obviously the people that are considered have to be somewhat hardcore and extremely active and more than likely twitch/youtubers.

The problem that arises is you will always get self promoters that are interested in the program to steer design and take advantage of it.

As for the program itself, the issue was people's perception of it that was counter to what ZOS said in the first place.

Having people that actually play the game at a high level (be it pvp or raiding or crafting or whatever) to leverage their experience over issue within the game is a good thing. It does make it somewhat non-inclusive of the player base though and that's just the way it is.

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

Aren't class reps just meat shields?

yodased wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

You can be 100% certain that the reps are on the side of the majority of the community when it comes to this sort of stuff. For instance Sunspire is the easiest DLC vet trial released to date. Instead the HM's are what is meant for the more hardcore raiding community.

But time spent in the game does not mean talent, or that the person is necessarily good for the class rep program. I know people that played this game since 2014, has been doing vet trials ever since they came out. Has been raiding in guilds 3-4 times a week trying to get better. Yet they still haven't cleared any vet DLC trial HM content. Now these people did do a lot of content. But they wouldn't be fit to be a class rep.

At the same time I know players with less than 600 CP that has cleared all vet HM content in the game. But they might just lack the experience to be able to be a class rep. Since they have not engaged enough in the community as a whole.

What also matters a lot is personality types, you have to have people that are but extremely knowledgeable about the game, while also engaging in more than one field. Here Alcast is a perfect example.

This is why there needs to be an application program where ZOS can get to know the people considered. It's a correspondence back and forth between the candidates and ZOS, where ZOS gets to pick the best candidates for the job.

Heelie wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

You can be 100% certain that the reps are on the side of the majority of the community when it comes to this sort of stuff. For instance Sunspire is the easiest DLC vet trial released to date. Instead the HM's are what is meant for the more hardcore raiding community.

But time spent in the game does not mean talent, or that the person is necessarily good for the class rep program. I know people that played this game since 2014, has been doing vet trials ever since they came out. Has been raiding in guilds 3-4 times a week trying to get better. Yet they still haven't cleared any vet DLC trial HM content. Now these people did do a lot of content. But they wouldn't be fit to be a class rep.

At the same time I know players with less than 600 CP that has cleared all vet HM content in the game. But they might just lack the experience to be able to be a class rep. Since they have not engaged enough in the community as a whole.

What also matters a lot is personality types, you have to have people that are but extremely knowledgeable about the game, while also engaging in more than one field. Here Alcast is a perfect example.

This is why there needs to be an application program where ZOS can get to know the people considered. It's a correspondence back and forth between the candidates and ZOS, where ZOS gets to pick the best candidates for the job.

You are not understanding what I am saying, I am not advocating for the person that has spent the most time in the trial. I am saying find the person that has cleared the most dungeons, cleared the most trials, has the highest gained AP in the game etc etc etc.

Get the person who has placed the most items as well as the dude who makes essential housing tools in a room and they will be your housing representative.

Get the person who has hosted the most RP events and they can be your RP representative.

Basically you need to stop concentrating on people and start concentrating on systems and how to improve them by measuring inputs.

Literally interacted with the system they represent more than anyone else who has ever played this game.

That person is the absolute best person to give you objective feedback on the system that they obviously care for.

Your CP 600 that cleared hard mode trials is great, but they are not representative of a player who can't get past mani on vet. That person who raided for 5 years and can't clear a trial is not representative of a player who can blow past vSS already.

You won't be able to represent players, you will only be able to look at data and alter systems based on inputs, one of those inputs in my opinion should be someone who has ultimate experience with that system.

Kel wrote: »

HOPEFULLY we can get a class rep that mainly plays on console, seeing as how it's 2/3rds of the available platforms to play on.
Why they didn't have console representatives from the start is mind blowing...

@Kel I know the PERFECT console rep.

This glorious enlightened man. @Sandman929

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

We had that post a while back asking for nominations and applications. Presumably its from tbe people that applied.

Oh so popularity and/or ego driven. That will work out great.

Well, they can't exactly choose people against their will, can they?

@Ogou I sometimes think they pay @Alcast under the table to keep him a rep. Why else would a man put himself through so much disappointment?

To be fair, he seems to be enjoying it more than most.

Ogou wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So, basically we have now a bunch of ZOS-elected super thankful ("im so special") VIP players that don't represent anything but their own opinions so ZOS can continue to ignore the rest of the community?!

That is exactly the problem with this approach. You get a bunch of well seasoned players that have cleared all the content a few times over in one room and expect them to represent all of the player base.

We have already seen comments from "Class Representatives" about how overland content is "too easy" and 1st person is only used by "role players".

They'll represent 10% of the game's population and leave the remaining 90% wonder WTF just happened to their game ...

You're still going on about that joke? How dare a class rep make a joke?

The actual reason is taking ZOS so long to reveal the new Class Reps is that they all had to get their sense of humor surgically removed.

Kel wrote: »

HOPEFULLY we can get a class rep that mainly plays on console, seeing as how it's 2/3rds of the available platforms to play on.
Why they didn't have console representatives from the start is mind blowing...

Because, in spite of claims that PC players have addons to, "play the game for them," the most knowledgeable players tend to be on PC. The same API access that console players deride also allow players to further examine and analyze what's happening in front of them.