What happend to the Class Rep Programm?

yodased

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

This thinly veiled insult is objectively a bad idea. Top 1% don't need to know game mechanics they burn bosses before most of all them even show up

Being good at a thing doesnt mean you should be listened to. It doesnt mean you should not be listened to either, but too much stock is placed in these so called elite players.

Nah, top 1% figure out all the mechanics either on early release or on pts and some even make guides avaiable to everyone for them. They Need to know how mechanics work/when they start/what triggers them to decide if they are reasonably skippable or if they are better of doing them.

Well i guess those people would be inclided in the 1% so im wrong to lump them all together vut it's more like .01% who figure it out and 1% who are taught them and then summarily ignore what they can.

My fault for that but it still stands that giving them more value for veing good is not the path that will create harmony

Heelie

yodased wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

This thinly veiled insult is objectively a bad idea. Top 1% don't need to know game mechanics they burn bosses before most of all them even show up

Being good at a thing doesnt mean you should be listened to. It doesnt mean you should not be listened to either, but too much stock is placed in these so called elite players.

Nah, top 1% figure out all the mechanics either on early release or on pts and some even make guides avaiable to everyone for them. They Need to know how mechanics work/when they start/what triggers them to decide if they are reasonably skippable or if they are better of doing them.

Well i guess those people would be inclided in the 1% so im wrong to lump them all together vut it's more like .01% who figure it out and 1% who are taught them and then summarily ignore what they can.

My fault for that but it still stands that giving them more value for veing good is not the path that will create harmony

This is possible the dumbest response I have ever read in my life. You have no idea how the structure or progression of a top guild works, just shut up please. If there was a single person that was underperfoming by 15% in dps, or dying 5-6 time on average more than his peers, he would be kicked before the week was over.

yodased

Heelie wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

This thinly veiled insult is objectively a bad idea. Top 1% don't need to know game mechanics they burn bosses before most of all them even show up

Being good at a thing doesnt mean you should be listened to. It doesnt mean you should not be listened to either, but too much stock is placed in these so called elite players.

Nah, top 1% figure out all the mechanics either on early release or on pts and some even make guides avaiable to everyone for them. They Need to know how mechanics work/when they start/what triggers them to decide if they are reasonably skippable or if they are better of doing them.

Well i guess those people would be inclided in the 1% so im wrong to lump them all together vut it's more like .01% who figure it out and 1% who are taught them and then summarily ignore what they can.

My fault for that but it still stands that giving them more value for veing good is not the path that will create harmony

This is possible the dumbest response I have ever read in my life. You have no idea how the structure or progression of a top guild works, just shut up please. If there was a single person that was underperfoming by 15% in dps, or dying 5-6 time on average more than his peers, he would be kicked before the week was over.

You have no idea who I am or what I have done, but I appreciate your passion for end game raiding. I wasn't trying to insult you here, just stating that there are less than 1% of the players that actually figure things out.

Why you would take that as a personal insult I'm not sure, but again sorry for getting under your craw there.

Let me rephrase that answer:

The top .01% of this game is if you listen to what ZOS claims is 100,000 people. So those 10,000 people take the time and effort to figure out the hardest of mechanics and then that trickles into the rest of the game.

To listen to those 10,000 people about balance is not a way to create a harmonious experience.

DjMuscleboy02

Whether or not you personally figure things out is irrelevant. The top players -- The players who would be looked at to be class reps -- know the mechanics extremely well. People hate to hear it, but quite honestly most of the class reps should be end game PvE players. Most knowledgeable PvE players are also well versed in PvP. You don't always need to be the absolute best to be knowledgeable, Asaingod is a good example of this in my opinion. He might not parse the highest or be in the best guild but he is undoubtedly knowledgeable of the game and to say otherwise is objectively false. FearTurbo and Alcast may not parse as high as some of the other DPS in the game but they are objectively some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable players the game has to offer.

If the game works at a high level, it will work the whole way down. This is not true in reverse. Balance the game with the absolute best in mind and it will be balanced for everyone.

yodased

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Whether or not you personally figure things out is irrelevant. The top players -- The players who would be looked at to be class reps -- know the mechanics extremely well. People hate to hear it, but quite honestly most of the class reps should be end game PvE players. Most knowledgeable PvE players are also well versed in PvP. You don't always need to be the absolute best to be knowledgeable, Asaingod is a good example of this in my opinion. He might not parse the highest or be in the best guild but he is undoubtedly knowledgeable of the game and to say otherwise is objectively false. FearTurbo and Alcast may not parse as high as some of the other DPS in the game but they are objectively some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable players the game has to offer.

If the game works at a high level, it will work the whole way down. This is not true in reverse. Balance the game with the absolute best in mind and it will be balanced for everyone.

This is not a true statement. Trickle down doesn't work that way. There can't be "balance" when you are concentrating mechanics on something that only the top can do.

That just means that the top get to do what they want to do and eventually it is brought down to the level of the masses for them to do it.

I mean, you are in the top raiding guild in the world and you are advocating that the game be balanced around the players in that guild and their achievements.

While that is great and I will never take anything away from you guys, balancing anything around what you do is a mistake for the health of the game.

DjMuscleboy02

yodased wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Whether or not you personally figure things out is irrelevant. The top players -- The players who would be looked at to be class reps -- know the mechanics extremely well. People hate to hear it, but quite honestly most of the class reps should be end game PvE players. Most knowledgeable PvE players are also well versed in PvP. You don't always need to be the absolute best to be knowledgeable, Asaingod is a good example of this in my opinion. He might not parse the highest or be in the best guild but he is undoubtedly knowledgeable of the game and to say otherwise is objectively false. FearTurbo and Alcast may not parse as high as some of the other DPS in the game but they are objectively some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable players the game has to offer.

If the game works at a high level, it will work the whole way down. This is not true in reverse. Balance the game with the absolute best in mind and it will be balanced for everyone.

This is not a true statement. Trickle down doesn't work that way. There can't be "balance" when you are concentrating mechanics on something that only the top can do.

That just means that the top get to do what they want to do and eventually it is brought down to the level of the masses for them to do it.

I mean, you are in the top raiding guild in the world and you are advocating that the game be balanced around the players in that guild and their achievements.

While that is great and I will never take anything away from you guys, balancing anything around what you do is a mistake for the health of the game.

You're confusing balance with design. The game should be balanced around the best of the best. The game should not be designed for the best of the best.

Heelie

yodased wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

This thinly veiled insult is objectively a bad idea. Top 1% don't need to know game mechanics they burn bosses before most of all them even show up

Being good at a thing doesnt mean you should be listened to. It doesnt mean you should not be listened to either, but too much stock is placed in these so called elite players.

Nah, top 1% figure out all the mechanics either on early release or on pts and some even make guides avaiable to everyone for them. They Need to know how mechanics work/when they start/what triggers them to decide if they are reasonably skippable or if they are better of doing them.

Well i guess those people would be inclided in the 1% so im wrong to lump them all together vut it's more like .01% who figure it out and 1% who are taught them and then summarily ignore what they can.

My fault for that but it still stands that giving them more value for veing good is not the path that will create harmony

This is possible the dumbest response I have ever read in my life. You have no idea how the structure or progression of a top guild works, just shut up please. If there was a single person that was underperfoming by 15% in dps, or dying 5-6 time on average more than his peers, he would be kicked before the week was over.

You have no idea who I am or what I have done, but I appreciate your passion for end game raiding. I wasn't trying to insult you here, just stating that there are less than 1% of the players that actually figure things out.

Why you would take that as a personal insult I'm not sure, but again sorry for getting under your craw there.

Let me rephrase that answer:

The top .01% of this game is if you listen to what ZOS claims is 100,000 people. So those 10,000 people take the time and effort to figure out the hardest of mechanics and then that trickles into the rest of the game.

To listen to those 10,000 people about balance is not a way to create a harmonious experience.

If you balance a game around end game the effects will trickle down, this is simple game design 101. Of course things can't be too hard. And also the beginning levels needs content that is progressively harder. But combat design, which is mainly what the class rep program is supposed to be about, has to be designed with the end game in mind. The effects will trickle down to create a more harmonious combat design.This goes for trials as well, the newest "HM" content should be so hard that it's an engaging challenge for the top 0.001% of players. But eventually through experience as well as power creep the content becomes available to a wider range of players. This does not mean that casual content should not be made, it also does not mean that the normal mode as well as veteran mode should be made harder. But if you design the combat as well as the pve content around the average player. Then the sense if progression is totally lost. You would lose the majority of the veteran player base, this would create a brain drain in the community, and eventually lead to a massive player drought. We saw this with Murkmire where no one really had interest in the newest arena, massive amounts of veteran players left, several guilds disbanded, and a single guild took every leaderboard score. Not only that, several trial leaderboards had scores <40.000 at the end of the patch. This was not something we have seen before. This means not only did the top players not want to engage in pve content. The average saturday trial guild quit as well.

People can’t keep thinking that ThE EnD GAmE is a circle jerk of 12 people filled with self interest. The vast majority of players among the top guilds on each server, engage with the community in different ways. Some more than others. A good amount of the raiding guilds are lead by players from the top guilds. You have to remember as well that a good amount of them started somewhere, now some of them just had raw talent. But most had to work their way up. They have hundreds of hours wiping in the trials, they should have a pretty good idea of the pain points for most players.

Glory

A lot of negativity here... I hope we can all remember that this program is aimed at connecting the developers and the community more closely. Even if it is not perfect (nothing is), it is so much better than other games' take on the community.

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

yodased wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

I disagree with many of your posts here, but this one I will respond to. Time invested != representative of the game, nor the community. Here are a few examples:

1. Time invested in PvP inevitably results in the title of Grand Overlord. However, this time invested does not mean that that player has any better perspective than someone who plays less. You can see GO's all across the platforms in Cyrodiil who seemingly lack any perspective, do not understand mechanics, and every ill-fated encounter they turn to accusatory comments. Despite their long playtime, they are not fit as a candidate for representing the community.
2. Time invested also does not suggest that they have the perspective of the average community either. While I agree that only cherry-picking the top-tier players (although I personally believe at least a few reps should be top-tier) is not a good way at representing the community overall, saying that someone who plays 20/24 hours is more apt of a rep than someone who plays 4/24 hours is arguing that quantity > quality.

There should definitely be an expectation that the representatives have actually played the game enough to understand pain points, etc. But to argue that the person who simply has more time than others to play this game is more fit than someone else who plays the game and understands it better despite playing less does not make any sense.

DjMuscleboy02

Glory wrote: »

A lot of negativity here... I hope we can all remember that this program is aimed at connecting the developers and the community more closely. Even if it is not perfect (nothing is), it is so much better than other games' take on the community.

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

yodased wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

I disagree with many of your posts here, but this one I will respond to. Time invested != representative of the game, nor the community. Here are a few examples:

1. Time invested in PvP inevitably results in the title of Grand Overlord. However, this time invested does not mean that that player has any better perspective than someone who plays less. You can see GO's all across the platforms in Cyrodiil who seemingly lack any perspective, do not understand mechanics, and every ill-fated encounter they turn to accusatory comments. Despite their long playtime, they are not fit as a candidate for representing the community.
2. Time invested also does not suggest that they have the perspective of the average community either. While I agree that only cherry-picking the top-tier players (although I personally believe at least a few reps should be top-tier) is not a good way at representing the community overall, saying that someone who plays 20/24 hours is more apt of a rep than someone who plays 4/24 hours is arguing that quantity > quality.

There should definitely be an expectation that the representatives have actually played the game enough to understand pain points, etc. But to argue that the person who simply has more time than others to play this game is more fit than someone else who plays the game and understands it better despite playing less does not make any sense.

If you want representatives from the community then have community reps. If you want representatives to give player input about game mechanics than you absolutely should cherry pick the top players. You cannot have players who speak on behalf of roleplayers and casual players giving input into game mechanics. It would be like having people who have running water in their homes designing and giving feedback on water systems in the city alongside engineers.

yodased

Glory wrote: »

A lot of negativity here... I hope we can all remember that this program is aimed at connecting the developers and the community more closely. Even if it is not perfect (nothing is), it is so much better than other games' take on the community.

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

yodased wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We're in the final stages of choosing some new members for the Class Rep Program to join our existing members. When we have news, we'll let everyone know.

@ZOS_GinaBruno where were these people pulled from? Having a popularity contest or bringing in players thar are supposedly "the best" at something isn't representative if your player base and excludes a lot of them.

Terrible idea. Representatives should be elected based on depth of knowledge, not lack of knowledge. The only argument against this is "muh exclusion" - as if class reps should literally be your average Joe casual players who have no idea how to play the game.

The concept is they are picking from those that volunteered themselves as the best. This is not based on anything other than their subjective feeling that they would be a good class rep.

No one is electing anyone here, people put their names forward as potential "representatives" and then ZOS picks among them.

How i would do it, and I realize it doesn't matter, but I would look at the data and find the person who has done the most vet dungeons in the game, the person who has done the most vet trials in the game, the most pvp in the game.

Not the highest score or the fastest clear or part of the most elite groups in the game. Literally the people that have put more time into this games systems than anyone else in the game.

You tap them and you ask them what are the pain points of the system, you can then ask them to join the team as a person who understands the system. If they say no you move on to #2 - #x until that person says yes.

This is how you build a system that reports actual problems and issues and is not based on popularity or perceived skill, its based on time in the seat experiencing the systems first hand.

These people may overlap with those who have presented themselves already, I have no idea. I'm not trying to disparage anyone that put their names first, but if you are seeking attention for being good at something, it may not be the best thing to listen to that opinion when it comes to what they get attention about.

For instance, if you are say part of a crew that does the hardest mode trials in the least amount of time, do you think that balance and difficulty should be presented by that person or should balance and difficulty be taken into consideration by the raw data of attempt - clears / reattempts?

If you have 100 attempts and 1 clear and 10 people reattempt then your 81% abandon rate is what you need to look at, not some arbitrary sense of skill.

I disagree with many of your posts here, but this one I will respond to. Time invested != representative of the game, nor the community. Here are a few examples:

1. Time invested in PvP inevitably results in the title of Grand Overlord. However, this time invested does not mean that that player has any better perspective than someone who plays less. You can see GO's all across the platforms in Cyrodiil who seemingly lack any perspective, do not understand mechanics, and every ill-fated encounter they turn to accusatory comments. Despite their long playtime, they are not fit as a candidate for representing the community.
2. Time invested also does not suggest that they have the perspective of the average community either. While I agree that only cherry-picking the top-tier players (although I personally believe at least a few reps should be top-tier) is not a good way at representing the community overall, saying that someone who plays 20/24 hours is more apt of a rep than someone who plays 4/24 hours is arguing that quantity > quality.

There should definitely be an expectation that the representatives have actually played the game enough to understand pain points, etc. But to argue that the person who simply has more time than others to play this game is more fit than someone else who plays the game and understands it better despite playing less does not make any sense.

I wasn't arguing that, but I've already stated my position you can read it if yo like

BlueRaven

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

If you want representatives from the community then have community reps. If you want representatives to give player input about game mechanics than you absolutely should cherry pick the top players. You cannot have players who speak on behalf of roleplayers and casual players giving input into game mechanics.

Role-players and casuals are subject to those same game mechanics, so why not ask for their input as well?

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

It would be like having people who have running water in their homes designing and giving feedback on water systems in the city alongside engineers.

Ummm... I hate to break this to you...

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nycwaterboard/index.page

Water systems are not run by some section of government engineers outside the rules of oversight. There are committees that oversee waterboard rules and requests.And they can be run by people who may have zero experience in water engineering and that is fine, and welcome in many ways.

Turelus

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Heelie

Turelus wrote: »

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Everyone would complain about that lmao, reps are supposed to be choosen on their merits, not their 9 forum stars and ability to pander to the in fact, very tiny forum community.

yodased

Heelie wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Everyone would complain about that lmao, reps are supposed to be choosen on their merits, not their 9 forum stars and ability to pander to the in fact, very tiny forum community.

I feel that is directed at me, warranted or not, but well placed shade deserves credit where credit is due.

10/10 underhanded slight.

But to respond to your comment, why do you get to say what is supposed to be?

Sanguinor2

BlueRaven wrote: »

Role-players and casuals are subject to those same game mechanics, so why not ask for their input as well?

Depends what game mechanics one is Talking About obviously but take class balance for instance, you dont want any random Person to be able to give direct Feedback to the devs About balance changes before they are released, I atleast dont want that.
I had to try and explain one guy over multiple comments that PvE is in a stam dps meta currently and was in a stam dps meta in previous Patches and he was convinced that magicka outperforms stam even tho stam has higher dps, stam gets picked whenever you can if you care About optimizing and stam Groups have the highest scores, I sure dont want that guy giving Feedback About balance changes concerning PvE.

Heelie

yodased wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Everyone would complain about that lmao, reps are supposed to be choosen on their merits, not their 9 forum stars and ability to pander to the in fact, very tiny forum community.

I feel that is directed at me, warranted or not, but well placed shade deserves credit where credit is due.

10/10 underhanded slight.

But to respond to your comment, why do you get to say what is supposed to be?

[snip]

I don't get to say how the program works, only that I know from seeing Gina's responses on the forums and on discord. That they're taking their good time picking the upcomming reps.

[edited for naming and shaming]

yodased

Heelie wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Everyone would complain about that lmao, reps are supposed to be choosen on their merits, not their 9 forum stars and ability to pander to the in fact, very tiny forum community.

I feel that is directed at me, warranted or not, but well placed shade deserves credit where credit is due.

10/10 underhanded slight.

But to respond to your comment, why do you get to say what is supposed to be?

[snip]

I don't get to say how the program works, only that I know from seeing Gina's responses on the forums and on discord. That they're taking their good time picking the upcomming reps.

Well that's just me making things about me, so my bad for assuming. Not too many "9 star" people around. We aren't good enough for 10 stars, but we keep trying!

I don't know the history of any class reps because they never represented me, nor did they present anything that would even seem to be relevant to the changes being made by ZOS.

The class rep system, as a system is flawed because of its design. There can be no accurate representation of players from players.

There can be accurate representation of player interaction with the systems in the game, that is doable and actually beneficial, but if you try to remove yourself from the situation and look at it objectively then maybe you can see where i'm coming from.

I understand that the top tier raiding community is going to understand the overlapping systems of the game maybe even better than those that are maintaining said systems, but again that doesn't automatically mean that they should be listened to.

Just because you win a gold medal at the olympics in swimming doesn't automatically qualify you to represent the athletes in contractual disputes. You may very well be able to do that swimmingly, but its not a free pass where we just accept you are great at one thing and ipso facto are now the point of contact for all things.

Wabu

I do not understand why a part of the community wants/needs class reps when we can just submit feedback/bugs through the game's ticket system.
This isn't a comment regarding whether or not a submitted ticket is successful in influencing the current shape of the game. But rather about doing two similar things which will produce the same outcome.
The only thing which matters are the natch potes. Even if a feedback/bug ticket is not addressed in the next patch note, accept that it might never happen. Adapt & forget about influencer class reps programs.

Maybe I am salty. But the class rep program failed me by not addressing the main issue of Zenimax Online Studios. ZOS is not making the Elder Scrolls MMO which I and others expect them to continue building. There is still a mount gambling squeeze on consumers and so on. IMHO the #1 issue with the game: artistic assets are king and balance/mechanics are the peasants. The class reps could have been consistently addressing this issue with ZoS on our behalves. Every class rep meeting summary Gina posted should of read: "These guys are still talking about crown store vs combat mechanics". Maybe the community is soft spoken regrading this large issue.

Artistic assets may be easier to develop than the maths involved in combat mechanics, no blame there. The art team has made more content for this game than the combat team has in the span of forever. And in some online games that is normal. ZoS do your best and please hire more Gilliam the Rogues.

That's just my opinion and I digress. Pretty game guys. Bring EU server back home to NA.

starkerealm

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

So not just simplifying the obfuscation of the little information that is available to console, designing rotation timing based on the bar swap lag and the innate lag of just having a lower fps not balancing?

Well, this should sound obvious, but you can't design a game around lag, when it will be running on different hardware specs. This is even more true when said lag comes down to internet performance in some cases.

And, yes, there's two versions of the PS4, and two versions of the XBone. You cannot design a game around the behavior on one piece of hardware, then release it to another and expect everything to be just fine. As a result, you cannot balance the game around lag that some members of the community will experience and others will not.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

How about the buff timers? Ever seen what it takes to try and track buffs on console?

I'm familiar with the base game buff tracking UI. Even once you have it, it's insufficient for the task at hand. I know.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

The ability to balance between the two different experiences on console and PC is just as important as magblades getting a buff soon.

This is the thing that's fundamentally impossible. You cannot have the same experience on PC and on consoles with a unified code base. Especially when you consider that the original versions of those consoles were already behind the curve when they released.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Having trials that have tells that tanks can track is also another great start in the changes needed between the platforms. Running a trial like vAS that has non static timers and also no preemptive tells(that can be reacted to) can also be considered an balance problems.

Frankly, my hardware has issues with Sunspire. The amount of visual noise hits my framerate hard, and while my system isn't the best, it's a hell of a lot better than the base model consoles. There is a serious issue with the visual effects in 12 man content. Which, okay, fine, but that's way outside the range of anything the class reps were tasked with.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Look I get it that class reps represent class problems but putting a knowledgeable Console player in the mix will help get what you deem QoL a viewpoint.

Except, that's not what the class rep program was about at all. It was about combat balance, full stop. Class rep was something of a misnomer from the beginning. Even if someone had hatched a cunning plan to sneak a console rep in... they would have been ignored as off-topic.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Balance is really just QoL.

No. Not even remotely.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Why should ZoS care how hard you main hits? Because they want you to have fun.

I get that was a rhetorical question, it'd work better if your answer to it wasn't flat out incorrect.

In both PvE and PvP balance is critical to long term survival of the game. Note: Balance doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be present somewhat. How finely tuned balance needs to be is a bit of a complex topic, but it does need to be present.

Without balance, you lose players. ZOS may not care if you can kill a monster in 1 hit or 5. However, if not enough people can clear a piece of content, and wander off, that's a bad thing. Players who are sufficiently discouraged will, eventually, leave.

Similarly, if content is too easy players will get bored. At that point, if there is no higher challenge to reach, they'll wander off.

In a single player game, this isn't much of a problem. Players come, they go, but you've already collected your money, and maybe if you release new DLC next week, they might poke their head back in and sniff around.

However, for an MMO, you need other players to be there. If you've got a new 4 man dungeon, but you don't have 4 players in the queue, it might as well not exist to someone who's trying to run it. This is an extreme example, obviously, but it can become a real problem in games with declining populations. (This is also true of any competitive multiplayer game. If it doesn't have a population of live players participating in matches, the matches can't happen. Bots and other mechanisms can help, but they can't replace other players.)

ESO is not a perfect game. It has issues. The Class Rep program was set up to help address some of those. Fortunately or not, QoL fell outside of that.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

What is so hard to understand that console needs attention. Why does that ever bother anyone?

I think the only people it actually bothers are ones who are so lost to platform sectarianism that there's no meaningful conversation.

That said, with respect to you, it does get tiring, to hear these complaints popping up in unrelated discussions. Again, we're talking about the Class Rep program so that's the perfect time to go, "but what about performance on the PS4?"

Now, there is a legitimate issue here which does need to be in front of the reps, and there's a legitimate argument that they're not hearing that perspective. But, simply saying, "we need a console rep," glazes right past that point.

Odovacar

What happened to @Tasear btw? I see she's banned...

LiquidPony

yodased wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They should steal EVE's CSM idea and just have yearly elections for reps.

At least we would have fun campaigns and elections to take part in each year, also no one could complain the reps were not elected then.

Everyone would complain about that lmao, reps are supposed to be choosen on their merits, not their 9 forum stars and ability to pander to the in fact, very tiny forum community.

I feel that is directed at me, warranted or not, but well placed shade deserves credit where credit is due.

10/10 underhanded slight.

But to respond to your comment, why do you get to say what is supposed to be?

Actually was aimed a Tasear who was a former class rep, she literally had thusands of forum post, and had "9 star forum user" in her self bio, hence the meme. She banned literally every end game healer from the healer class rep discord, ignored all feedback for classes that she did'nt like. Then she threatened to sue the people she banned once they created their own discord "which of course everyone joined". She got kicked out of the program eventually, only to do a long forum post accusing ZOS of sexism.

I don't get to say how the program works, only that I know from seeing Gina's responses on the forums and on discord. That they're taking their good time picking the upcomming reps.

Well that's just me making things about me, so my bad for assuming. Not too many "9 star" people around. We aren't good enough for 10 stars, but we keep trying!

I don't know the history of any class reps because they never represented me, nor did they present anything that would even seem to be relevant to the changes being made by ZOS.

The class rep system, as a system is flawed because of its design. There can be no accurate representation of players from players.

There can be accurate representation of player interaction with the systems in the game, that is doable and actually beneficial, but if you try to remove yourself from the situation and look at it objectively then maybe you can see where i'm coming from.

I understand that the top tier raiding community is going to understand the overlapping systems of the game maybe even better than those that are maintaining said systems, but again that doesn't automatically mean that they should be listened to.

Just because you win a gold medal at the olympics in swimming doesn't automatically qualify you to represent the athletes in contractual disputes. You may very well be able to do that swimmingly, but its not a free pass where we just accept you are great at one thing and ipso facto are now the point of contact for all things.

I don't know that the class rep system is fundamentally flawed. I would just say that it is a small piece of the puzzle and the rest of the puzzle is missing.

I've been a working software engineer for quite a while. The user feedback loop is a tricky thing to nail down. But I would suggest that beyond "expert user" feedback (the class rep program), ZOS should be periodically round-tabling with non-expert users, because those users will play the game in a different way, have different pain-points, etc.

The biggest flaw I see from my experience is that the feedback loop is far too long. Every 3 months we start a new cycle where the community has 5 weeks to test and provide input, then a release goes out, and for the most part we're stuck there for another 2 months. Now for new content, I understand this cycle. For combat balance changes, QOL changes, tweaks to existing content, bugfixes, etc., I think it's a horrible development model.

Take for instance a change like the infamous cast-time on damage shields. That seems like a relatively self-contained feature that could've been coded and released on PTS in a tiny incremental patch months earlier.

Of course I have no idea what their SDLC looks like, but IMO it would be wise to immediately release new code to PTS where appropriate as soon as it clears QA on the internal test server. That would shorten the feedback loop and give a larger chunk of the community the opportunity to provide meaningful feedback before it's too late.

BlueRaven

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Role-players and casuals are subject to those same game mechanics, so why not ask for their input as well?

Depends what game mechanics one is Talking About obviously but take class balance for instance, you dont want any random Person to be able to give direct Feedback to the devs About balance changes before they are released, I atleast dont want that.
I had to try and explain one guy over multiple comments that PvE is in a stam dps meta currently and was in a stam dps meta in previous Patches and he was convinced that magicka outperforms stam even tho stam has higher dps, stam gets picked whenever you can if you care About optimizing and stam Groups have the highest scores, I sure dont want that guy giving Feedback About balance changes concerning PvE.

Yes it "Depends what game mechanics one is Talking About obviously", I agree. But this line implies there are some game mechanics where their input would be valuable. Right now there is no avenue for that input.

starkerealm

LiquidPony wrote: »

I've been a working software engineer for quite a while. The user feedback loop is a tricky thing to nail down. But I would suggest that beyond "expert user" feedback (the class rep program), ZOS should be periodically round-tabling with non-expert users, because those users will play the game in a different way, have different pain-points, etc.

I think that was the point of having separate testing rounds this year, first with the reps, then with the influencers. However, even then, there's a lot of influencer/rep overlap. Some members of the Influence round are probably more knowledgeable than several of the reps.

Onefrkncrzypope

starkerealm wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

So not just simplifying the obfuscation of the little information that is available to console, designing rotation timing based on the bar swap lag and the innate lag of just having a lower fps not balancing?

Well, this should sound obvious, but you can't design a game around lag, when it will be running on different hardware specs. This is even more true when said lag comes down to internet performance in some cases.

And, yes, there's two versions of the PS4, and two versions of the XBone. You cannot design a game around the behavior on one piece of hardware, then release it to another and expect everything to be just fine. As a result, you cannot balance the game around lag that some members of the community will experience and others will not.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

How about the buff timers? Ever seen what it takes to try and track buffs on console?

I'm familiar with the base game buff tracking UI. Even once you have it, it's insufficient for the task at hand. I know.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

The ability to balance between the two different experiences on console and PC is just as important as magblades getting a buff soon.

This is the thing that's fundamentally impossible. You cannot have the same experience on PC and on consoles with a unified code base. Especially when you consider that the original versions of those consoles were already behind the curve when they released.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Having trials that have tells that tanks can track is also another great start in the changes needed between the platforms. Running a trial like vAS that has non static timers and also no preemptive tells(that can be reacted to) can also be considered an balance problems.

Frankly, my hardware has issues with Sunspire. The amount of visual noise hits my framerate hard, and while my system isn't the best, it's a hell of a lot better than the base model consoles. There is a serious issue with the visual effects in 12 man content. Which, okay, fine, but that's way outside the range of anything the class reps were tasked with.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Look I get it that class reps represent class problems but putting a knowledgeable Console player in the mix will help get what you deem QoL a viewpoint.

Except, that's not what the class rep program was about at all. It was about combat balance, full stop. Class rep was something of a misnomer from the beginning. Even if someone had hatched a cunning plan to sneak a console rep in... they would have been ignored as off-topic.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Balance is really just QoL.

No. Not even remotely.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Why should ZoS care how hard you main hits? Because they want you to have fun.

I get that was a rhetorical question, it'd work better if your answer to it wasn't flat out incorrect.

In both PvE and PvP balance is critical to long term survival of the game. Note: Balance doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be present somewhat. How finely tuned balance needs to be is a bit of a complex topic, but it does need to be present.

Without balance, you lose players. ZOS may not care if you can kill a monster in 1 hit or 5. However, if not enough people can clear a piece of content, and wander off, that's a bad thing. Players who are sufficiently discouraged will, eventually, leave.

Similarly, if content is too easy players will get bored. At that point, if there is no higher challenge to reach, they'll wander off.

In a single player game, this isn't much of a problem. Players come, they go, but you've already collected your money, and maybe if you release new DLC next week, they might poke their head back in and sniff around.

However, for an MMO, you need other players to be there. If you've got a new 4 man dungeon, but you don't have 4 players in the queue, it might as well not exist to someone who's trying to run it. This is an extreme example, obviously, but it can become a real problem in games with declining populations. (This is also true of any competitive multiplayer game. If it doesn't have a population of live players participating in matches, the matches can't happen. Bots and other mechanisms can help, but they can't replace other players.)

ESO is not a perfect game. It has issues. The Class Rep program was set up to help address some of those. Fortunately or not, QoL fell outside of that.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

What is so hard to understand that console needs attention. Why does that ever bother anyone?

I think the only people it actually bothers are ones who are so lost to platform sectarianism that there's no meaningful conversation.

That said, with respect to you, it does get tiring, to hear these complaints popping up in unrelated discussions. Again, we're talking about the Class Rep program so that's the perfect time to go, "but what about performance on the PS4?"

Now, there is a legitimate issue here which does need to be in front of the reps, and there's a legitimate argument that they're not hearing that perspective. But, simply saying, "we need a console rep," glazes right past that point.

How about a class rep that plays on console? Instead of a dedicated just console pleb. I don't like the derails that pop up in many balance issue threads. aKa sDK has only two morphs for stam in their class. "Well atleast you are not a stam sorc..." or
Stam sorc has no class identity. "Well atleast you have great passives try being a sDK" Its annoying but completely ignoring that both classes are more identified with weapon skills instead of thier respective class is inherently bad. Adequate representation and communication for either rep aka what I will try to bring forward in the next meeting list (which shouldn't be covered by a nda) would be helpful.

Console doesn't need their own rep but do need to be represented. Honestly like every other class or perspective in game. EXCEPT FOR FIRST PERSON lol jk.

DjMuscleboy02

BlueRaven wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

If you want representatives from the community then have community reps. If you want representatives to give player input about game mechanics than you absolutely should cherry pick the top players. You cannot have players who speak on behalf of roleplayers and casual players giving input into game mechanics.

Role-players and casuals are subject to those same game mechanics, so why not ask for their input as well?

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

It would be like having people who have running water in their homes designing and giving feedback on water systems in the city alongside engineers.

Ummm... I hate to break this to you...

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nycwaterboard/index.page

Water systems are not run by some section of government engineers outside the rules of oversight. There are committees that oversee waterboard rules and requests.And they can be run by people who may have zero experience in water engineering and that is fine, and welcome in many ways.

That link simply shows that the committee is appointed by the mayor, not sure what that's trying to prove. In fact I'd imagine most public committees simply require you to live in a specific county. You're just nit-picking. Regardless, it's irrelevant as my point still stands.

Being a roleplayer or casual is not mutually exclusive from being knowledgeable. I figured that would be implied by what I typed, but I suppose I should have been more clear.

Beardimus

Odovacar wrote: »

What happened to @Tasear btw? I see she's banned...

Really? She was one of the most proactive. Asking questions etc. Well, there we go.

Heelie

Beardimus wrote: »

Odovacar wrote: »

What happened to @Tasear btw? I see she's banned...

Really? She was one of the most proactive. Asking questions etc. Well, there we go.

she said something that was clearly against TOS on the forums, she admited to it herself on her discord

D0PAMINE

I liked Checkmath and Joy Division.

Sandman929

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

HOPEFULLY we can get a class rep that mainly plays on console, seeing as how it's 2/3rds of the available platforms to play on.
Why they didn't have console representatives from the start is mind blowing...

@Kel I know the PERFECT console rep.

This glorious enlightened man. @Sandman929

After being given the gift of time, again, to reflect on my behavior and closely examine the forum rules in an effort to find the grey area that's used to selectively move the line in the sand when it comes to snarky comments echoing ZOS's words back to them, I don't think I'm in the running to officially represent anything in their minds.

Plus it's "class representatives", the last thing ZOS wants is Community Representatives, what with all the torches and pitchforks and whatnot.

Durham

It was consumed by a black hole that was created by the lag in Cyrodiil !!!!

There is no return!