changes in TOS

x48rph · June 2019

The fact that you agree to the terms before using the product and making purchases and then the company has the right to change those very same terms after you've already spent a bunch of money always leaves me scratching my head, especially since your only recourse is to accept any and all changes or quit thereby forfeiting any money you've spent. But *shrug* such is the way of MMOs

xxthir13enxx · June 2019

You as a customer have 1 and only 1 right...
To decide if you desire to continue to give a company money...the end.

SaintSubwayy · June 2019

Uryel wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Terms of Service
Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9#latest

I would assume (no lawyer here thou) that a non comprehensive list is not enough.

It would probably be required to have the old and new TOS side by side, and differences would prob need to be highlighted for easier comparison..

but again Im no lawyer so not sure how detailed it needs to be to meet the Law.

luen79rwb17_ESO · June 2019

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

Ri_Khan · June 2019

All I read in there was that they will not be held accountable for their product in any way, shape or form. They're also using all of our info associated with the game (r/, here, twitch, steam, etc.) for marketing. Take it or leave it.

Oh yeah and if you live outside the U.S., they REALLY don't care about your "rights", so good luck!

Dont_do_drugs · June 2019

Turelus wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

I made a comment on Slack to some others as soon as I saw ToS changes that the forums would be fun today.
We go through this every time, then everyone agrees and keeps playing the game.

Tbh from a community ambassador I'd expect him to support community questions. Not talking about wether complaints on law side are correct or not. Expecting a company to exactly inform users about tos changes is a service thing in interest of the players. There is nothing bad, wanting and expecting that. It's called transparency. I don't know why this is a joke to you.

TequilaFire · June 2019

So has anyone yet pulled off successful litigation against ZOS about game non performance in EU or NA?
Waiting...

theyancey · June 2019

It is a very easy and simple choice: accept the TOS and play the game or do not accept and go do something else.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

MissBizz wrote: »

I can definitely say, the TOS writers are not the bug fixing people.

And... ?
If you have money for 10 salaries, you can choose to hire 8 lawyers and 2 developers, or 2 lawyers and 8 developers...

I have to agree that given the current situation of the PC/Mac megaservers, this "TOS update" comes as a big communication mismatch, given that none of the acute game breaking issues is even mentioned...

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

Uryel wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

It's in the patch notes.

No, it's not.

Ahem...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Terms of Service
Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9#latest

Ahem ahem...

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.

I repeat : no, the changes are NOT mentioned in the patch notes. Not at all.

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

MissBizz wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.

I pressed disagree for now. I have scheduled progression trial for tomorrow, most probably I will be in more "agreeable" mood at that point, as for now I have zero wish to play this game where instead of fixing game-breaking problems, devs are busy with updating TOS and covering their backside from possible backfire of hardware capacity problems.

I can definitely say, the TOS writers are not the bug fixing people.

Yes, of course, but somehow TOS update matches with time of biggest technical problems I ever saw in ESO. They look now like schoolboy hastily hiding beer and trying not to breath in parents side, when they came home too early.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

ZOS_GinaBruno · June 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

What's listed in the patch notes is WHAT's been changed, not HOW.
There's no way for us to link what you've mentioned in the patch notes and the awfully long entire TOS text, especially given the fact that there's no search button in the TOS window.
There's also no way for us to know how the TOS were BEFORE the change, and therefore what's actually been changed and how.

To make a broad comparison with combat abilities, it's like saying :
- Ability X has been changed. See ingame for changes.
instead of :
- Ability X : cooldown is now 10 milliseconds.
or even better :
- Ability X : cooldown has been increased to 10 milliseconds (from 8)

We're used to you providing us the information in the best possible form (that is, the last one). The first form is very hard for us to use. That's what I mean by "The changes are not in the patch notes".

Turelus · June 2019

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

I made a comment on Slack to some others as soon as I saw ToS changes that the forums would be fun today.
We go through this every time, then everyone agrees and keeps playing the game.

Tbh from a community ambassador I'd expect him to support community questions. Not talking about wether complaints on law side are correct or not. Expecting a company to exactly inform users about tos changes is a service thing in interest of the players. There is nothing bad, wanting and expecting that. It's called transparency. I don't know why this is a joke to you.

My appolagies.
In future I shall endevour to make sure my first post in threads like these are informitive ones where I'll do things like link people to the information available, maybe such as quoting and linking patch notes where the information available to me and everyone else is presented.

Also to avoid any future issues of people having fun or a personal opinon maybe we should work together as a community to come up with some kind of list of do's and do not's for forums posting. Something which everyone logging into the forums would need to accept after reading, maybe some kind of conditions of use, or requirements of access or... I am sure there is a better name but I can't place it right now.

Ydrisselle · June 2019

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

It's a list about which topics are changed. Can we read the complete changes somewhere, maybe the old and the new version side by side?

Alienoutlaw · June 2019

Turelus wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

I made a comment on Slack to some others as soon as I saw ToS changes that the forums would be fun today.
We go through this every time, then everyone agrees and keeps playing the game.

it feels like you are mocking the player base "we can do what we want let them moan for 5mins they will keep coming regardless" as a Community Ambassador i would suggest this comment was not at all wise

Emmagoldman · June 2019

The injustice!!!!

Im pretty sure most French that are worried about societal problems are putting on a yellow vest and throwing bricks. If how they updated their Tos has you this fired up, life is going pretty well

Cundu_Ertur · June 2019

"... standard computer warranty agreement which said that if the machine 1) didn't work, 2) didn't do what the expensive advertisements said, 3) electrocuted the immediate neighborhood, 4) and in fact failed entirely to be inside the expensive box when you opened it, this was expressly, absolutely, implicitly and in no event the fault or responsibility of the manufacturer, that the purchaser should consider himself lucky to be allowed to give his money to the manufacturer, and that any attempt to treat what had just been paid for as the purchaser's own property would result in the attentions of serious men with menacing briefcases and very thin watches. Crowley [a demon from hell] had been extremely impressed with the warranties offered by the computer industry, and had in fact sent a bundle Below to the department that drew up the Immortal Soul agreements, with a yellow memo form attached just saying: 'Learn, guys.'"
Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett

KyraCROgnon · June 2019

ohhh a Goog Omens fan

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2019

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The injustice!!!!

Im pretty sure most French that are worried about societal problems are putting on a yellow vest and throwing bricks. If how they updated their Tos has you this fired up, life is going pretty well

What's the French got to do with it ?

And, yes, I've read enough comments such as "it's in the TOS, you agreed to them, live with it" to be rather careful with that now. Also, change in general contracting conditions are always interesting to know about. It shows where the seller is positioned and headed.. generally.

idk · June 2019

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

ok so after today's patch i have to accept your new ToS. With NO hint at the changes since last time. Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ? you have to list the changes from previous version in a clear way so we can give an informed answer !

I am sure someone has mentioned it but there is a hint in the patch notes as they list areas that have been changed.

I thought it was great Zos actually noted it in the patch notes, I cannot recall if they have done this before.

Cundu_Ertur · June 2019

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

ohhh a Goog Omens fan

A bit.
Going to VA this week to binge watch the mini-series with a friend.

Killum · June 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

"... standard computer warranty agreement which said that if the machine 1) didn't work, 2) didn't do what the expensive advertisements said, 3) electrocuted the immediate neighborhood, 4) and in fact failed entirely to be inside the expensive box when you opened it, this was expressly, absolutely, implicitly and in no event the fault or responsibility of the manufacturer, that the purchaser should consider himself lucky to be allowed to give his money to the manufacturer, and that any attempt to treat what had just been paid for as the purchaser's own property would result in the attentions of serious men with menacing briefcases and very thin watches. Crowley [a demon from hell] had been extremely impressed with the warranties offered by the computer industry, and had in fact sent a bundle Below to the department that drew up the Immortal Soul agreements, with a yellow memo form attached just saying: 'Learn, guys.'"
Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett

Loved the book, about to reread it.

Pevey · June 2019

Has anyone yet read through the TOS and made an actual summary of the changes? Very interested.

I would, but unfortunately not able to log on at the moment.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2019

I look at the TOS like so . If I'm so frustrated with any game that the TOS is also annoying me , click disagree and log into one that brings happiness to click agree .

Dont_do_drugs · June 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

I made a comment on Slack to some others as soon as I saw ToS changes that the forums would be fun today.
We go through this every time, then everyone agrees and keeps playing the game.

Tbh from a community ambassador I'd expect him to support community questions. Not talking about wether complaints on law side are correct or not. Expecting a company to exactly inform users about tos changes is a service thing in interest of the players. There is nothing bad, wanting and expecting that. It's called transparency. I don't know why this is a joke to you.

My appolagies.
In future I shall endevour to make sure my first post in threads like these are informitive ones where I'll do things like link people to the information available, maybe such as quoting and linking patch notes where the information available to me and everyone else is presented.

Also to avoid any future issues of people having fun or a personal opinon maybe we should work together as a community to come up with some kind of list of do's and do not's for forums posting. Something which everyone logging into the forums would need to accept after reading, maybe some kind of conditions of use, or requirements of access or... I am sure there is a better name but I can't place it right now.

You are mocking the community which voted for you as their ambassador years ago. I dont like it. Sure you are free to have your opinion. But I dont think its necessary to poke fun on people who want to know whats going on with the TOS exactly. You can repeat as much as you want, it would be written in the Patch Notes. It isnt. We cant compare old versus new. Has been told now multiple times in this thread, no matter how often you repeat it would be written there. It just isn't.

Thogard · June 2019

Can we read the newly added / changed ToS text?

The patch notes say what was changed but they don’t say what the changes were. That isn’t very helpful.

Pevey · June 2019

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/print-terms?doc_id=terms_of_use&language=en

This is what is posted on their web site now. Not 100% sure it is the latest version.

Tevlak · June 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

What's listed in the patch notes is WHAT's been changed, not HOW.
There's no way for us to link what you've mentioned in the patch notes and the awfully long entire TOS text, especially given the fact that there's no search button in the TOS window.
There's also no way for us to know how the TOS were BEFORE the change, and therefore what's actually been changed and how.

To make a broad comparison with combat abilities, it's like saying :
- Ability X has been changed. See ingame for changes.
instead of :
- Ability X : cooldown is now 10 milliseconds.
or even better :
- Ability X : cooldown has been increased to 10 milliseconds (from 8)

We're used to you providing us the information in the best possible form (that is, the last one). The first form is very hard for us to use. That's what I mean by "The changes are not in the patch notes".

true