changes in TOS

Panomania

This type thing has been rehashed soooo many times over the last 2_ decades by armchair litigators. Its pathetic.

Here's the long and the short of it. The company making the game owns your character. You dont. They own all the items you've accumulated. You dont. They can ban you for ANY reason unless you can prove they violated civil rights for the nation you are in (discrimination for race, religion, gender, sexual orientation for example), and as cases have shown in this type thing over the last 20+ years proving such is damned near impossible.

You can claim points of law for your resident nation til the cows come home, this is how it is.

You are playing in their sandbox. You will play by their rules or they will bid you farewell. Get used to it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

randomkeyhits wrote: »

The thing is, you can't really ask for the changes, they are so pervasive throughout the document you have to treat it as a completely new TOS. It only takes a word or two to completely change the tone of a sentence and they've added nearly 3000 new ones on top of the changed words.

I'm well aware that Gina could not have written nor summarized the changes in the TOS, nor anyone at ZOS, since said summary would have meant TOS too, and every single word counts in such documents. If they could make it shorter, they would.
I was simply pointing out that, no, the changes weren't in the patch notes in any useful way. And again, we must agree to something that we can't really read or understand in any practicable way. The system is totally absurd. It's not ZOS' fault either, though. It's just the direction the world's rolling.

Goregrinder

arena25 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Americans don't settle, we throw the rotten tea in the harbor.

Ok, where is the LOL button when you need it?

What, does this guy think he's bettah than our tea, kid? Well he bettah calm his livah, or Im gonna smack him so haahd, his Ma' in southie's gonna feel the rumble of my thundah!

ryzen_gamer_gal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I see clear blatant discrimination of Linux OS in TOS. Can I disagree and have my money back?

What discrimination is that exactly? I'd like to know because i have steam and use steamplay to play eso on linux (manjaro) and if they try to target me i will have to take some action. Heck i even have toons named ESO On Linux

darkblue5

Noblis01

There is an excellent reason players, in any game, just click "ACCEPT" on the TOS button

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzUfUzCt9jk"]https://youtube.com/watch?v=JzUfUzCt9jk

Mik195

.

starkerealm

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ?

Really, signing a contract is illegal in France? News to me.

jediodyn_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

Some of us did.

In the US a properly written and agreed to TOS agreement is still considered a legal agreement.

(This information is not offered as personal legal advice, please consult with an attorney regarding any personal inquiries)

nafensoriel

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

Some of us did.

In the US a properly written and agreed to TOS agreement is still considered a legal agreement.

(This information is not offered as personal legal advice, please consult with an attorney regarding any personal inquiries)

Except for that whole signing under force since you can't read the TOS/EULA before purchase thing. Kinda eliminates the "contract" element entirely.

No one considers TOS binding. It's a paper tiger that idiots treat like the law because they just don't know better.

srfrogg23

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Added warnings related to virtual reality? I hope that's because they plan to add a VR compatibility to the game

Thogard

nafensoriel wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

Some of us did.

In the US a properly written and agreed to TOS agreement is still considered a legal agreement.

(This information is not offered as personal legal advice, please consult with an attorney regarding any personal inquiries)

Except for that whole signing under force since you can't read the TOS/EULA before purchase thing. Kinda eliminates the "contract" element entirely.

No one considers TOS binding. It's a paper tiger that idiots treat like the law because they just don't know better.

It’s a license, not a contract.

xeNNNNN

Just butting in here but to just surmise what I believe people are asking for assuming that I am understanding peoples positions correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong):

The community wants a simple "before" and "after" page with only the things changed to be shown along side their previous incarnations (1 page not two seperate pages of "before" and then respectively "after") - to be added to the ToS so that people can visibly see what terms they are agreeing to with each renewal to ensure that they are happy to agree to the terms provided and for this to be noted in the patch notes as well so that people can be made aware of changes that could effect them or something they may not want to agree to.

If all that is correct then it sounds "reasonable" at least to me. Extra work mind due but it couldn't possibly be that bad (I hope).

I cannot see any other way either way apart from poor Gina being forced to comb through every single ToS change herself and post those within the patch notes as well. Its a lot of reading. A lot.

Sylvermynx

nafensoriel wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

Some of us did.

In the US a properly written and agreed to TOS agreement is still considered a legal agreement.

(This information is not offered as personal legal advice, please consult with an attorney regarding any personal inquiries)

Except for that whole signing under force since you can't read the TOS/EULA before purchase thing. Kinda eliminates the "contract" element entirely.

No one considers TOS binding. It's a paper tiger that idiots treat like the law because they just don't know better.

Anyone can read the legals. I read them before I ever had an account.

Cundu_Ertur

randomkeyhits wrote: »

It looks like the permanent location which the game links to is

https://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us

As far as I can tell the two look the same.

For the future, I've just cut and paste the web one into a text file and when the next time it changes I'll do the same again and just diff the two.

Takes about 2 seconds to do and at least then I'll be able to work out what the differences actually are.

What about the wayback machine?

edit to add: nevermind, you got there

Sylvermynx

@Cundu_Ertur - yah.... I was digging when it got posted. Net was out for a bit, but hey, it did get posted.

@srfrogg23 - I'm all for VR.... as long as a game without same is still available. As someone with serious vertigo issues, VR.... would mean I couldn't play at all if it was the only option.

Elsonso

randomkeyhits wrote: »

The thing is, you can't really ask for the changes, they are so pervasive throughout the document you have to treat it as a completely new TOS. It only takes a word or two to completely change the tone of a sentence and they've added nearly 3000 new ones on top of the changed words.

This. I have the old ToS archived from the last time the changed it. The differences are scattered all through the document. I treated it like a new document and ignored it from top to bottom.

SAMEASLEYb14_ESO

sorry i DO NOT AGREE TO ANY TOS OTHER THAN THE GAME I HAVE ESO.The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO WILL NOT HAPPEN UNLESS YOU GIVE ME A LIST OF ALL TOS IM AGREEING TO IN 30 DAY THIS TOS IS VOID YOU AGREE TO THE TREMS SET FORTH IN THIS POST.

KyraCROgnon

starkerealm wrote: »

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ?

Really, signing a contract is illegal in France? News to me.

Don't twist my words... what has been ruled illegal in France (and i think it derives from a wider EU rulling) is forcing people to accept changes in any contract (like TOS, but most litigations are about more crucial matters like loan or insurrance or work contracts) without being given a clear list of the exact changes being made (clear as in "line X, wording changed from "blabla" to "mumble" ) . And ZOS didn't do that here, they just listed the generic chances but didn't provide the details, nor a copy of old TOS to refer to.

Casdha

Well the one thing that caught my attention that I was not aware of, Well lets just say I need to remember to log in at least once every 6 months.




I take this to mean they can take away your crown purchases after 180 days of no logging in or access to your craft bag if you don't have ESO+ (< I knew this part) and its contents after 180 days (< but not this).

Turelus

Casdha wrote: »

Well the one thing that caught my attention that I was not aware of, Well lets just say I need to remember to log in at least once every 6 months.

I take this to mean they can take away your crown purchases after 180 days of no logging in or access to your craft bag if you don't have ESO+ (< I knew this part) and its contents after 180 days (< but not this).

A lot of MMO games have this in their ToS, I've never once seen it actually be used. My guess is it's some weird edge case legal coverage.
I don't think companies have the time or patience to sit and remove content from people every 180 days.

Elsonso

Turelus wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Well the one thing that caught my attention that I was not aware of, Well lets just say I need to remember to log in at least once every 6 months.

I take this to mean they can take away your crown purchases after 180 days of no logging in or access to your craft bag if you don't have ESO+ (< I knew this part) and its contents after 180 days (< but not this).

A lot of MMO games have this in their ToS, I've never once seen it actually be used. My guess is it's some weird edge case legal coverage.
I don't think companies have the time or patience to sit and remove content from people every 180 days.

Former players take up disk space, so this allows them to clean house, if needed.

marius_buys

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

The game was already sold under old terms and conditions and they are coerceing customers to either accept the new terms or not play.

Under Dutch law ZOS you would have to repay all monies spent.

marius_buys

Just some of what ZOS didnt want out in plain to read:
ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

Also their servers are now classified as a "resller"

marius_buys

To say I

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

Ye Gina I can only describe the new TOS as devicive and obtuse. I get the distinct impression that ZOS is starting to cover their arse for non performance, especially in terms of server lag.

I also get an impression that ZOS is investing their profit into other games rather than fixing the current servers.

Proove me wrong.

Elsonso

marius_buys wrote: »

Just some of what ZOS didnt want out in plain to read

Out in plain sight since at least 2016. You oicked a paragraph that had no changes between the two revisions.

2016:

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

2019:

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

marius_buys

lordrichter wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

Just some of what ZOS didnt want out in plain to read

Out in plain sight since at least 2016. You oicked a paragraph that had no changes between the two revisions.

2016:

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

2019:

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

Interesting, how can you get a copy of the 2016 TOS? They have been overwritten.

Elsonso

marius_buys wrote: »

*** man, how can hou get a copy of the 2016 TOS? They have been overwritten.

Like many people, I want to know what ZOS changes, so I keep local copies of the ToS, CoC, and Privacy Policy each time I see they have changed.

Edit: this is not the first time a "what has changed" discussion has come up

Hotdog_23

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They're in the patch notes and you can read them before accepting them.

No, they're not in the patch notes.

The entire TOS isn't in the patch notes since it's in-game when you log in, but a high-level summary of changes is included. Where are you not seeing it?

The problem is there no patch notes for console players so why would I read PC/Mac patch notes as they do not directly affect me.

You either should have waited on the TOS for consoles until we get patch notes that matter to us or at least put it somewhere we might look and not hidden in patch notes for a platform we do not play.
This is one way you could improve on communication as you say you are trying to improve on it.

As a side note if just sotra confirms that console players are 2nd class compared to PC players in ZOS eyes.

marius_buys

lordrichter wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

*** man, how can hou get a copy of the 2016 TOS? They have been overwritten.

Like many people, I want to know what ZOS changes, so I keep local copies of the ToS, CoC, and Privacy Policy each time I see they have changed.

Edit: this is not the first time a "what has changed" discussion has come up

And you are in no way connected to ZOS other than as a player? If so respect dude.