changes in TOS

CMDR_Un1k0rn

xxthir13enxx wrote: »

You as a customer have 1 and only 1 right...
To decide if you desire to continue to give a company money...the end.

Blunt, but true.

I agree.

Inaya

They have to have one to protect them from the idiots who drive with a steaming hot cup of coffee between their legs then sue McDonalds because they get burnt, or the ones who got "locked" in a Walmart overnight and we so traumatized they had to sue (apparently they had not idea how to use phones), the woman who sued because the ad poster for Dexter was so scary it made her fall down the stairs, so yeah

KyraCROgnon

I agree that ToS are needed, i just like to know what changed exactly when i agree to new ones. Patch notes give an idea, but don't list the actual changes made. And the online version the very same document to agree on refers you to, is not the same version as the one you signed (2 years difference in release date ! at least was the case when i got there, they may have updated it since ?)

valeriiya

As long as their outside legal is Piper they're pretty well represented in any court case anyway

Emmagoldman

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The injustice!!!!

Im pretty sure most French that are worried about societal problems are putting on a yellow vest and throwing bricks. If how they updated their Tos has you this fired up, life is going pretty well

What's the French got to do with it ?

And, yes, I've read enough comments such as "it's in the TOS, you agreed to them, live with it" to be rather careful with that now. Also, change in general contracting conditions are always interesting to know about. It shows where the seller is positioned and headed.. generally.

The first posts discusses illegality within the french system and would require someone who is French to file a suit.

Discussing their rioting was used to point out their are huge social issues and much bigger fish to fry then worrying about tos.

Its an inference to point out its not worth burning torches and getting pitchforks out over this

Turelus

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I look at the TOS like so . If I'm so frustrated with any game that the TOS is also annoying me , click disagree and log into one that brings happiness to click agree .

QFT.

nafensoriel

Terms of Service are not binding and have never been binding either in the USA or EU. They are more "this is what we expect and what we will take action on based on our expected operation of the software and your expected use of the software". In court, TOS have about as much value as the paper they are printed on(and since they aren't printed..).

Consider them more "guidelines" on how to act with each other than explicit rules.

Acrolas

For anyone truly curious:

This is Google's cache of https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 15, 2019 22:10:36 GMT.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:U86i8d46E2IJ:https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us




But this thread is so full of *** I'd get banned deconstructing it.
And I really can't be *** with some of you anymore.

zaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.

No an TOS is not legally binding and has never been. However possession is 9/10 of the law.
And as its an online game, well whey hold your soul.
https://www.deviantart.com/isriana/art/TESO-Keeps-Getting-Worse-445791458
ZoS could demand tomorrow that Khajiit characters chould not use "I" in chat, only this one, Khajiit or character name.

On local software you have the upper hand outside of outright illegal stuff like piracy. But if they demand an service fee and you don't pay you can still use software but you will not get updates or support.

Goregrinder

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Well would you look at that...someone in 2019 who knows how to search for *** on the web....pro surfer!

arena25

I doubt a court will take the case up...and besides that, since ZOS is based in Baltimore, I doubt EU court would have any power here.

Also, I see the full moon is making things weird on gaming forums again...

BigBragg

arena25 wrote: »

I doubt a court will take the case up...and besides that, since ZOS is based in Baltimore, I doubt EU court would have any power here.

Also, I see the full moon is making things weird on gaming forums again...

Being based in Baltimore doesn't make them exempt form customer protection laws in Europe when they are doing business in Europe. There are numerous and ongoing cases of American tech companies having to answer to European legal and oversight bodies.

Goregrinder

BigBragg wrote: »

arena25 wrote: »

I doubt a court will take the case up...and besides that, since ZOS is based in Baltimore, I doubt EU court would have any power here.

Also, I see the full moon is making things weird on gaming forums again...

Being based in Baltimore doesn't make them exempt form customer protection laws in Europe when they are doing business in Europe. There are numerous and ongoing cases of American tech companies having to answer to European legal and oversight bodies.

"Ongoing"....let me know when they are settled and what the results for all of them are afterwards.

TequilaFire

Americans don't settle, we throw the rotten tea in the harbor.

arena25

TequilaFire wrote: »

Americans don't settle, we throw the rotten tea in the harbor.

Ok, where is the LOL button when you need it?

woufff

BigBragg wrote: »

arena25 wrote: »

I doubt a court will take the case up...and besides that, since ZOS is based in Baltimore, I doubt EU court would have any power here.

Also, I see the full moon is making things weird on gaming forums again...

Being based in Baltimore doesn't make them exempt form customer protection laws in Europe when they are doing business in Europe. There are numerous and ongoing cases of American tech companies having to answer to European legal and oversight bodies.

Indeed, neither Microsoft nor Apple and some others would say the contrary, they all have been condemned to huge fines by the European Union, although being US companies.

Besides this, for doing business in Europe or elswhere, you need local dependancies which could be sued, as they fall under the law of the country they're registered, e.g.:

-quote-
ZeniMax Media ist ein privates Medienunternehmen mit Sitz bei Washington, D.C. und internationalen Vertretungen in Frankfurt am Main, London, Paris, Eindhoven, Hongkong, Tokio und Sydney. Über seine Tochterunternehmen entwickelt und veröffentlicht ZeniMax Media interaktive Unterhaltungssoftware für Konsolen, PC sowie mobile und drahtlose Geräte. Zu ZeniMax Media gehören Bethesda Softworks, Bethesda Game Studios, id Software, Arkane Studios, Tango Gameworks, MachineGames, Battlecry Studios, ZeniMax Online Studios, ZeniMax Europe Ltd., ZeniMax Asia K.K., ZeniMax Asia Pacific Limited und ZeniMax Australia Pty Ltd.
-unquote-

(Source: https://www.game.de/members-archive/zenimax-germany-gmbh/)

Quot erat demonstrandum

TequilaFire

Thank you it was meant to be funny!

alanmatillab16_ESO

This should be good, all the E-Lawyers with their Internet Degrees are coming out of the woodwork again.

arena25

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

This should be good, all the E-Lawyers with their Internet Degrees are coming out of the woodwork again.

Blame the full moon, captain.

Delsanab14_ESO

Lol they still have us waive our rights to a jury trial and force arbitration and no class actions.

Hamfast

It seems to me this point is moot... to play, we need to accept the TOS, thus we have accepted it, regardless of the changes, just because you did not take the time to read it has no bearing on the fact that YOU accepted it.

Granted, there are a lot of folks in governments around the world that want to make sure nothing like taking responsibility for your own actions will ever affect you... unless it's not paying your taxes

randomkeyhits

It looks like the permanent location which the game links to is

https://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us

As far as I can tell the two look the same.

For the future, I've just cut and paste the web one into a text file and when the next time it changes I'll do the same again and just diff the two.

Takes about 2 seconds to do and at least then I'll be able to work out what the differences actually are.

Goregrinder

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

This should be good, all the E-Lawyers with their Internet Degrees are coming out of the woodwork again.

haha it's hilarious right?

tim99

Goregrinder wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service
...

Well would you look at that...someone in 2019 who knows how to search for *** on the web....pro surfer!

I would know as well... just dont care enough to do so...
because they dont mention anything about the next cute little pet in crown store... ^^


btw. this post is funny, sad, true and sarcastic at the same time. awesome...

randomkeyhits

Interesting,

went to the wayback machine to get the previous version, dated 14th March 2016.

did word counts on the two files ( lines, words, characters)

436 15827 101541 tos_20160314.txt
489 18158 115679 tos_20190617.txt

A lot of "lines" are actually paragraphs, so a line can have anything up to about 200 words... but 18K words, thats getting to the high end of a short story and nearing novella classsification (30k+ words).

Then I did a diff on the two and most of it has changed, parts are re-ordered andmost a lot of wording changes throughout. New bits added some looking a bit dubious here in the UK, mostespecially involving minors.

The thing is, you can't really ask for the changes, they are so pervasive throughout the document you have to treat it as a completely new TOS. It only takes a word or two to completely change the tone of a sentence and they've added nearly 3000 new ones on top of the changed words.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

As someone that actually went to law school, trust me, you don’t. Haha

bearbelly

valeriiya wrote: »

As long as their outside legal is Piper they're pretty well represented in any court case anyway

I do love Piper.
I had no idea she was an attorney, though.

DeathStalker_X

Everyone missed out on the fine print where it indicates you surrender all rights to your soul ..........

Goregrinder

TOS protects ZOS from those kids who cry about wanting their money back when PSNetwork is down for like 3 hours, and blame ZOS.

anitajoneb17_ESO

zaria wrote: »

And as its an online game, well whey hold your soul.
https://www.deviantart.com/isriana/art/TESO-Keeps-Getting-Worse-445791458

That link is pure gold. Thank you ! :-)