changes in TOS

KyraCROgnon

ok so after today's patch i have to accept your new ToS. With NO hint at the changes since last time. Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ? you have to list the changes from previous version in a clear way so we can give an informed answer !

KyraCROgnon

(and consequently, any EU player breaking those ToS can take you to court and claim he wasn't informed of the changes properly hereby nnot responsible for breaching them )

KyraCROgnon

oh, and extra fail : the update date is not the same on the website : https://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us from 2 years ago !

Turelus

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

BrianLovesLisa

Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.

blnchk

They do list the changes in today's Patch Notes. Or did you mean that the changes haven't been made clear enough in them?

Edit: Late to the party, alas!

KyraCROgnon

except if TOS are ruled illegal, because of lack of information / out of date version on website aso...
not planning to do anything against them, just pointing out the flawws.
And thanks @Turelus for digging out the place they listed the changes done !

anitajoneb17_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.

RexyCat

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.

Thanks, anita and Kyra for bringing this up to attention!

Why is there a section in patch notes about "The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO"? Are we now also agreeing to something that is out of our control as player to other possible games that ZeniMax have in their portfolio? I only have interest to access Elder Scrolls Online and not every other game that have Zeni trade mark in it.

Also the method of a very compact (some text are in bold capital letter other in small micro text), long documents that now is also split into ToS, CoC, Private Policy, with a terminology which most people don't understand how to interpret for how far these terms will be going if there would be any dispute in legal terms.


//RexyCat

Tommy_The_Gun

When I will be back from work I will hit record button on my nvidia shadow play after the game is patched... Just in case...

jircris11

RexyCat wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.

Thanks, anita and Kyra for bringing this up to attention!

Why is there a section in patch notes about "The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO"? Are we now also agreeing to something that is out of our control as player to other possible games that ZeniMax have in their portfolio? I only have interest to access Elder Scrolls Online and not every other game that have Zeni trade mark in it.

Also the method of a very compact (some text are in bold capital letter other in small micro text), long documents that now is also split into ToS, CoC, Private Policy, with a terminology which most people don't understand how to interpret for how far these terms will be going if there would be any dispute in legal terms.


//RexyCat

As some one who has read countless TOS most are the same just minor alterations. Ppl dont read them because people are always in a rush. In the end we technically dont iwn our accounts on ANY mmo according to the tos dince ultimate online days.

RexyCat

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.

According to EU law such clause would be seen as too wide and possible being used as punishment for those that would have any legal reason to bring any complains to a court.

Banning as in closing access to an account is a very powerful tool for any online company which also put user in a dependency situation when there have been made a purchase of any kind on account. (Mark: Free trail account wouldn't have the same protection as long it is possible to create an account without making a purchase).

There is a difference when there is a short term closing of account access when there is documentation for harmful behaviour from players account and it is reasonable to inform that account that is have been closed for access with information on what grounds without disclosing sensitive security information.

In short: action taken from any company need to be documented and not something they can do randomly. It also need to be done in such way that it doesn't impact negatively on legal rights to actually be able to bring any complaints to court. There is a formal process in legal preceding which needs to be taken into account even from online companies that have user in other countries then their home country.

//RexyCat

Turelus

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

BrianLovesLisa

RexyCat wrote: »

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.

According to EU law such clause would be seen as too wide and possible being used as punishment for those that would have any legal reason to bring any complains to a court.

Banning as in closing access to an account is a very powerful tool for any online company which also put user in a dependency situation when there have been made a purchase of any kind on account. (Mark: Free trail account wouldn't have the same protection as long it is possible to create an account without making a purchase).

There is a difference when there is a short term closing of account access when there is documentation for harmful behaviour from players account and it is reasonable to inform that account that is have been closed for access with information on what grounds without disclosing sensitive security information.

In short: action taken from any company need to be documented and not something they can do randomly. It also need to be done in such way that it doesn't impact negatively on legal rights to actually be able to bring any complaints to court. There is a formal process in legal preceding which needs to be taken into account even from online companies that have user in other countries then their home country.

//RexyCat

Nice to know EU protects its own Citizens, Companies need to stop with the " we own your account we can ban you with out reason and with out notice".

The_Lex

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

I wish purchasing and using everyday life services wouldn't require everyone to go to law school before even attempting to understand what their TOS mean.

Turelus

The_Lex wrote: »

I love how when a company changes its TOS (in any game or social platform), people immediately become arm chair lawyers.

I made a comment on Slack to some others as soon as I saw ToS changes that the forums would be fun today.
We go through this every time, then everyone agrees and keeps playing the game.

reprosal

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

RexyCat wrote: »

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.

According to EU law such clause would be seen as too wide and possible being used as punishment for those that would have any legal reason to bring any complains to a court.

Banning as in closing access to an account is a very powerful tool for any online company which also put user in a dependency situation when there have been made a purchase of any kind on account. (Mark: Free trail account wouldn't have the same protection as long it is possible to create an account without making a purchase).

There is a difference when there is a short term closing of account access when there is documentation for harmful behaviour from players account and it is reasonable to inform that account that is have been closed for access with information on what grounds without disclosing sensitive security information.

In short: action taken from any company need to be documented and not something they can do randomly. It also need to be done in such way that it doesn't impact negatively on legal rights to actually be able to bring any complaints to court. There is a formal process in legal preceding which needs to be taken into account even from online companies that have user in other countries then their home country.

//RexyCat

Nice to know EU protects its own Citizens, Companies need to stop with the " we own your account we can ban you with out reason and with out notice".

A lot of the times it is to defend themselves from legal loopholes if you are associated with some kind of 3rd party RMT company that makes money off their product/platform.

Good example: WoW and Glider.

Uryel

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

ok so after today's patch i have to accept your new ToS. With NO hint at the changes since last time. Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ? you have to list the changes from previous version in a clear way so we can give an informed answer !

It's in the patch notes.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Uryel wrote: »

It's in the patch notes.

No, it's not.

MartiniDaniels

I see clear blatant discrimination of Linux OS in TOS. Can I disagree and have my money back?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.

The_Lex

Turelus wrote: »

I wish I went to law school like everyone else.

No you don't. Trust me. 🤣

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying changing of TOS now looks like another act of disrespect from ZOSBethesda to players. I bet given current attitudes in community, they tasked their lawyers to re-evaluate TOS for all possible holes for law suits and now they are closing those holes abruptly before somebody's kettle blow off and people start coming to courts no matter how small chances of success are.

MartiniDaniels

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.

I pressed disagree for now. I have scheduled progression trial for tomorrow, most probably I will be in more "agreeable" mood at that point, as for now I have zero wish to play this game where instead of fixing game-breaking problems, devs are busy with updating TOS and covering their backside from possible backfire of hardware capacity problems.

Turelus

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.

Nope, most people do. Which is why ToS are argued to not be something which would hold up in court.

End of the day most people playing are not going to come into issues with the ToS and anyone who's worried about data protection from ESO probably already has worse information gathered by other companies.

I mean, I generally give something a read as I am curious about such things, mostly to see what updates to the rules of the game they add in regards to cheating/exploiting etc.

MissBizz

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.

I pressed disagree for now. I have scheduled progression trial for tomorrow, most probably I will be in more "agreeable" mood at that point, as for now I have zero wish to play this game where instead of fixing game-breaking problems, devs are busy with updating TOS and covering their backside from possible backfire of hardware capacity problems.

I can definitely say, the TOS writers are not the bug fixing people.

Katahdin

Buyer beware
read the contract before you sign

Dusk_Coven

[quote="reprosal;c-6142804A lot of the times it is to defend themselves from legal loopholes if you are associated with some kind of 3rd party RMT company that makes money off their product/platform.

Good example: WoW and Glider.[/quote]

The reason TOS is so big is because there are a lot of criminals, vandals, and cheats. They behave badly, then find reasons to avoid punishment -- to the point where the courts have to spell out what is unreasonable behavior and punishable -- hence the huge TOS, huge law books, and huge court system.

We complain about TOS, then turn around and complain when they don't have enough manpower to enforce it and catch all the criminals, vandals, and cheats we see in-game.

Rain_Greyraven

Turelus wrote: »

These are the changes in rough.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9

Terms of Service

• Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
• The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
• Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
• Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
• Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
• Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
• Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
• Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
• Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
• Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
• Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
• Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
• Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
• Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

See we have different priorities...

You look at it and say "rough"

I look at it and say awesome, because they put in a standard VR clause that pretty much confirms that they are re-enabling Native VR mode.

I'll let actual lawyers deal with the other nonsense, and enjoy the game.

Uryel

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

It's in the patch notes.

No, it's not.

Ahem...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

Terms of Service
Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9#latest