The Elder Scrolls Online

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changes in TOS

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KyraCROgnon
KyraCROgnon
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ok so after today's patch i have to accept your new ToS. With NO hint at the changes since last time. Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ? you have to list the changes from previous version in a clear way so we can give an informed answer !
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  • BrianLovesLisa
    BrianLovesLisa
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    Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.
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  • blnchk
    blnchk
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    They do list the changes in today's Patch Notes. Or did you mean that the changes haven't been made clear enough in them?

    Edit: Late to the party, alas!
    Edited by blnchk on June 17, 2019 11:25AM
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  • KyraCROgnon
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    except if TOS are ruled illegal, because of lack of information / out of date version on website aso...
    not planning to do anything against them, just pointing out the flawws.
    And thanks @Turelus for digging out the place they listed the changes done !
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  • RexyCat
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    anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    These are the changes in rough.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9
    Terms of Service
    • Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
    • The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
    • Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
    • Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
    • Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
    • Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
    • Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
    • Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
    • Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
    • Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
    • Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
    • Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
    • Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
    • Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

    Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
    That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.


    Thanks, anita and Kyra for bringing this up to attention!

    Why is there a section in patch notes about "The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO"? Are we now also agreeing to something that is out of our control as player to other possible games that ZeniMax have in their portfolio? I only have interest to access Elder Scrolls Online and not every other game that have Zeni trade mark in it.

    Also the method of a very compact (some text are in bold capital letter other in small micro text), long documents that now is also split into ToS, CoC, Private Policy, with a terminology which most people don't understand how to interpret for how far these terms will be going if there would be any dispute in legal terms.


    //RexyCat
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  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    When I will be back from work I will hit record button on my nvidia shadow play after the game is patched... Just in case... :D
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on June 17, 2019 11:59AM
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  • jircris11
    jircris11
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    RexyCat wrote: »
    anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    These are the changes in rough.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9
    Terms of Service
    • Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
    • The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
    • Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
    • Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
    • Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
    • Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
    • Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
    • Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
    • Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
    • Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
    • Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
    • Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
    • Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
    • Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

    Well, no, these aren't "the changes". This is the topics that have been modified. If you want to know HOW they've been modified, you have to read through the whole thing.
    That's why EU laws don't consider TOS as legally valid nor binding anymore. They say noone reasonable can expect a customer to read them the way they're delivered.


    Thanks, anita and Kyra for bringing this up to attention!

    Why is there a section in patch notes about "The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO"? Are we now also agreeing to something that is out of our control as player to other possible games that ZeniMax have in their portfolio? I only have interest to access Elder Scrolls Online and not every other game that have Zeni trade mark in it.

    Also the method of a very compact (some text are in bold capital letter other in small micro text), long documents that now is also split into ToS, CoC, Private Policy, with a terminology which most people don't understand how to interpret for how far these terms will be going if there would be any dispute in legal terms.


    //RexyCat

    As some one who has read countless TOS most are the same just minor alterations. Ppl dont read them because people are always in a rush. In the end we technically dont iwn our accounts on ANY mmo according to the tos dince ultimate online days.
    IGN: Ki'rah
    Khajiit/Vampire
    DC/AD faction/NA server.
    RPer
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  • reprosal
    reprosal
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    BrianLovesLisa wrote: »
    RexyCat wrote: »
    BrianLovesLisa wrote: »
    Did you know there is a clause in the TOS that they can ban you for any reason or no reason at all. So yeah the court case wouldn't get to a judge.

    According to EU law such clause would be seen as too wide and possible being used as punishment for those that would have any legal reason to bring any complains to a court.

    Banning as in closing access to an account is a very powerful tool for any online company which also put user in a dependency situation when there have been made a purchase of any kind on account. (Mark: Free trail account wouldn't have the same protection as long it is possible to create an account without making a purchase).

    There is a difference when there is a short term closing of account access when there is documentation for harmful behaviour from players account and it is reasonable to inform that account that is have been closed for access with information on what grounds without disclosing sensitive security information.

    In short: action taken from any company need to be documented and not something they can do randomly. It also need to be done in such way that it doesn't impact negatively on legal rights to actually be able to bring any complaints to court. There is a formal process in legal preceding which needs to be taken into account even from online companies that have user in other countries then their home country.

    //RexyCat

    Nice to know EU protects its own Citizens, Companies need to stop with the " we own your account we can ban you with out reason and with out notice".

    A lot of the times it is to defend themselves from legal loopholes if you are associated with some kind of 3rd party RMT company that makes money off their product/platform.

    Good example: WoW and Glider.
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  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    KyraCROgnon wrote: »
    ok so after today's patch i have to accept your new ToS. With NO hint at the changes since last time. Do you guys at ZOS legal service know that this type of practice has been ruled illegal in France (and probably all of EU) ? you have to list the changes from previous version in a clear way so we can give an informed answer !

    It's in the patch notes.
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
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  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    I see clear blatant discrimination of Linux OS in TOS. Can I disagree and have my money back?
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  • The_Lex
    The_Lex
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    Turelus wrote: »
    I wish I went to law school like everyone else. :trollface:

    No you don't. Trust me. 🤣

    PC NA | @The_Lex
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    Characters (PC NA):

    Dragonknight
    Vaaljørn | Nord Dragonknight | Tank/Stamina DPS | EP

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    Dro-Zhirr | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina DPS | EP
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    Worf of Sto'Vo'Kor | Orc Sorcerer | Stamina DPS | EP
    Maldarin Direnni | Altmer Sorcerer | Magicka DPS | EP

    Templar
    Vaanrith | Dunmer Templar | Crafter | EP
    Brejan Garak | Breton Templar | Healer | EP

    Warden
    Hallbjörn Stormblade | Nord Warden | Stamina DPS | EP
    Hannibal Travan | Breton Warden | Magicka DPS | EP
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  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »
    Am I the only one who just clicks accept because, like it or not, you can't play until you do so?

    Maybe I'm just naive. That, or a realist.
    Nope, most people do. Which is why ToS are argued to not be something which would hold up in court.

    End of the day most people playing are not going to come into issues with the ToS and anyone who's worried about data protection from ESO probably already has worse information gathered by other companies.

    I mean, I generally give something a read as I am curious about such things, mostly to see what updates to the rules of the game they add in regards to cheating/exploiting etc.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
    The Great Forums Banning #NeverForget
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  • Katahdin
    Katahdin
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    Buyer beware
    read the contract before you sign
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  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    [quote="reprosal;c-6142804A lot of the times it is to defend themselves from legal loopholes if you are associated with some kind of 3rd party RMT company that makes money off their product/platform.

    Good example: WoW and Glider.[/quote]

    The reason TOS is so big is because there are a lot of criminals, vandals, and cheats. They behave badly, then find reasons to avoid punishment -- to the point where the courts have to spell out what is unreasonable behavior and punishable -- hence the huge TOS, huge law books, and huge court system.

    We complain about TOS, then turn around and complain when they don't have enough manpower to enforce it and catch all the criminals, vandals, and cheats we see in-game.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on June 17, 2019 12:52PM
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  • Rain_Greyraven
    Rain_Greyraven
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    Turelus wrote: »
    These are the changes in rough.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9
    Terms of Service
    • Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
    • The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
    • Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
    • Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
    • Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
    • Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
    • Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
    • Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
    • Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
    • Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
    • Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
    • Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
    • Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
    • Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

    See we have different priorities...

    You look at it and say "rough"

    I look at it and say awesome, because they put in a standard VR clause that pretty much confirms that they are re-enabling Native VR mode.

    I'll let actual lawyers deal with the other nonsense, and enjoy the game.
    Edited by Rain_Greyraven on June 17, 2019 12:58PM
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”

    ― Robert E. Howard


    So you want to be a game developer? Here is the best way to go about it.
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  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
    Uryel wrote: »
    It's in the patch notes.

    No, it's not.

    Ahem...
    ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:
    Terms of Service
    Updated the in-game Terms of Service, which you will need to re-accept when first logging in after this patch. While we encourage you to review the document in its entirety, below are a high level (not comprehensive) list of changes:
    The TOS will now cover all ZeniMax games, rather than just ESO.
    Any instance previously stating "used" is now "accessed, played, purchased, received, or used".
    Added greater clarification of the differences between the Privacy Policy, EULA, and the TOS.
    Added additional text specific to Japan, Turkey, Brazil, and UK players.
    Added warnings relating to Virtual Reality.
    Added additional clarifications for what the company is responsible for in regards to data privacy.
    Updated the text for merchandise codes or redemptions to include Japanese virtual currency expiration laws and information for unlinking accounts.
    Made clarifications regarding sharing game accounts.
    Adjusted some text in the Free Trial section.
    Re-wrote the section on Paid Services to include resellers.
    Adjusted the text involving refunds and warranties.
    Added additional clarifications relating to third party internet connections and hardware.
    Updated sections involving the European dispute resolution and governing law for US residents versus external parties.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480439/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-0-9#latest
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
    Quote
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