Sorceror Daedric Curse needs meaningful counterplay in PvP

Lord-Otto · May 2019

DirtyDeeds765 wrote: »

Can't you block the curse's damage when it pops?

Nope.

Canned_Apples · May 2019

Doubt they care.
Changing this won't make them any less OPed.

DisgracefulMind · May 2019

"Hard-hitting abilities should be blockable" - ZoS
*fissure becomes blockable*

So should curse, once again, be blockable.

Strider__Roshin · May 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

"Hard-hitting abilities should be blockable" - ZoS
*fissure becomes blockable*

So should curse, once again, be blockable.

Nah it should be dodgeable. Streak is already undodgeable so this ability should be unblockable.

Waffennacht · May 2019

Everything else in the sorc line up is dodge able/avoidable

Dodge during the curse explosion and use vigor - or just cloak immediately after - sure you eat the curse but that's easily healed

When curse was blockable it sucked hard. There was no chance of bursting an opponent

Insco851 · May 2019

Nothing wrong with a strong delayed burst skill like curse. It might need to be toned down 8-12% in dmg but nothing else.

Gilvoth · May 2019

it shouldnt be taking me out of stealth and constantly applied over over over again as i purge it repeatedly.
it hits hard.

Cortimi · May 2019

I remember when DKs had a counter to Sorc...

Anyron · May 2019

Skill with 6k damage and with 6s delay burst.

Is it only me, or it looks more like underpowered?

In pvp 6s is like year. There are more potent builds to burst you down even faster.

But i am not sure why it is unblockable.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · May 2019

nerf sorcs

Kikke · May 2019

So many salty NBs..

Oh, if you get multiple curses on you. Stop trying too 1vX... lol.

Purge is enough counter. Oh, trow a hot and dodge the rest of the combo... 6k dmg wont oneshot you.

Gilvoth · May 2019

just "needs better counterplay" just like the title says.
give us something to counter it, and it shouldnt be forcing me out of stealth constantly.

Gilvoth · May 2019

Kikke wrote: »

Another NB was pulled out of stealth by curse, and therefore it is overloaded. Lol! just LOL!

its not just once, it constantly "keeps" us out of stealth.
boom boom boom boom boom boom, its constant, and if we purge it you guys just spam it, the whole entire fight with all sorcs for the last few years is just constant spaming curse the Whole fight.

Kikke · May 2019

Gilvoth wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Another NB was pulled out of stealth by curse, and therefore it is overloaded. Lol! just LOL!

its not just once, it constantly "keeps" us out of stealth.
boom boom boom boom boom boom, its constant, and if we purge it you guys just spam it, the whole entire fight with all sorcs for the last few years is just constant spaming curse the Whole fight.

We like too spread curses... too bad it can only effect one target at a time =(

lassitershawn · May 2019

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

This much is definitely untrue. In a similar length fight (that isn't short enough for a sorc to just get lucky rng for a few seconds) a NB will almost always end up with more bow procs despite the fact that sorcs are more likely to cast frags in execute for sustain and NBs stop casting bows at 25%. This is because bows can be built on the backbar with light attacks while frags will only proc from abilities casted on frontbar and is assuming that the NB is competent and light weaving into bows instead of sitting on 5 stacks for an ability cast. You would average a frag every 4th ability if you ONLY casted on your front bar while you would always get a bow every 5th ability so in the case of always staying on one bar yes a sorcerer should get more frags.

In similar gear a NB will always have harder hitting bows than a sorcerer's frags (stamblade definitely so).

I'm speaking from PvE data but I'd imagine in PvP you sit on both buffs anyways until you get a good burst opportunity so the point should be more or less moot? Not going to speak on the PvP power of frags or curse but definitely want to address the belief people have for some reason that you can A. get more frags or B. that it hits harder.

MrSinister213 · May 2019

Patch after patch the mouth breathers complain about magic sorc. So many tears. The great thing about ESO is you can play any class

So the question is why do these types never play the overpowered magic sorc themselves? Because they can't even grasp the simple shield stack mechanic and get lit up within one rotation.

If sorc that overpowered just roll one, but you wont. If stamblade is that savage next patch you best believe you will see me on one.

Emma_Overload · May 2019

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Strider__Roshin · May 2019

MrSinister213 wrote: »

Patch after patch the mouth breathers complain about magic sorc. So many tears. The great thing about ESO is you can play any class So the question is why do these types never play the overpowered magic sorc themselves? Because they can't even grasp the simple shield stack mechanic and get lit up within one rotation.

If sorc that overpowered just roll one, but you wont. If stamblade is that savage next patch you best believe you will see me on one.

Actually it was one of my most played characters at one point. Now I only have time for my main. I don't follow the meta btw, I just find the magsorc fun. But it's just too easy of a class to be successful with due to the frequency of its burst, the survivability with its shields, and the lack of counterplay. Believe it or not the only opponents I found annoying other than DKs were magblades. Medium stamblades were quite easy though.

And I haven't even tried a pet build yet, but their damage is insane as well as their ability to survive.

Gilvoth · May 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

i do not believe curse will be nerfed.
they might, but, i kinda doubt it.

Juhasow · May 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

The last time y'all tried to nerf Curse, it ended up with a buff. Do you really want to go down this road again?

Seeing what ZOS did to incap in latest PTS I´m afraid of giving feedback at this point

They'll make curse a 3,5 sec version of silence that disables stamina abilities and stamina based core mechanics (dodge , block , sprint )

Joy_Division · May 2019

People are countering it with 30K+ health builds, sets that give major evasion like candy, and overtuned healing.

DisgracefulMind · May 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

Feanor · May 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

That’s the issue with these kind of threads. Everyone is trying to keep their strong skills while pointing to other classes. People who are playing a class and can objectively assess a skill while admitting there may be adjustments needed are very rare on here.

They said, the only adjustment Curse needs is not being able to stack (if I were as boneheaded as a lot of commentators I’d just write „but you’re supposed to die by multiple players anyway“...).

Kalixte · May 2019

Daus wrote: »

go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc.

Let's duel and see how often a rolly polly/cloaky nightblade like you takes the crystal fragment!

DisgracefulMind · May 2019

Feanor wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

That’s the issue with these kind of threads. Everyone is trying to keep their strong skills while pointing to other classes. People who are playing a class and can objectively assess a skill while admitting there may be adjustments needed are very rare on here.

They said, the only adjustment Curse needs is not being able to stack (if I were as boneheaded as a lot of commentators I’d just write „but you’re supposed to die by multiple players anyway“...).

EDIT: I should specify I'm discussing magicka Warden.

I'm not pointing to any other classes, I fully believe that anything overpowered needs an adjustment. Does fissure? If you're getting hit by a 6k+ fissure (that can be kited and has 3 seconds between its damage that you can 100% avoid) then it's by someone in a glass cannon/high damage built, not particularly built to outlast in a highly 1vX or 2vX situation. A sorc can get 5+ on an ability that they can keep on a target, but they don't have to even really build for it (and they get 2 procs + an AoE blast mechanic). I've played Sorc a ton, I know what is and isn't OP about it. Please don't try to tell me I'm biased. I'm not.

Curse either needs to not be able to stack, or it needs to be blocked. Fissure can now be blocked (an average fissure hit in a non-glass cannon build is about 4.5 with a crit, and it can be dodged, kited, and never, ever guarantees a hit; you, quite literally, have to aim it), and doesn't have a guaranteed hit on someone (curse can be purged, but who really has the bar space or ability to use purge outside of zergs).

Emma_Overload · May 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Emma_Overload · May 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

That’s the issue with these kind of threads. Everyone is trying to keep their strong skills while pointing to other classes. People who are playing a class and can objectively assess a skill while admitting there may be adjustments needed are very rare on here.

They said, the only adjustment Curse needs is not being able to stack (if I were as boneheaded as a lot of commentators I’d just write „but you’re supposed to die by multiple players anyway“...).

EDIT: I should specify I'm discussing magicka Warden.

I'm not pointing to any other classes, I fully believe that anything overpowered needs an adjustment. Does fissure? If you're getting hit by a 6k+ fissure (that can be kited and has 3 seconds between its damage that you can 100% avoid) then it's by someone in a glass cannon/high damage built, not particularly built to outlast in a highly 1vX or 2vX situation. A sorc can get 5+ on an ability that they can keep on a target, but they don't have to even really build for it (and they get 2 procs + an AoE blast mechanic). I've played Sorc a ton, I know what is and isn't OP about it. Please don't try to tell me I'm biased. I'm not.

Curse either needs to not be able to stack, or it needs to be blocked. Fissure can now be blocked (an average fissure hit in a non-glass cannon build is about 4.5 with a crit, and it can be dodged, kited, and never, ever guarantees a hit; you, quite literally, have to aim it), and doesn't have a guaranteed hit on someone (curse can be purged, but who really has the bar space or ability to use purge outside of zergs).

Distinguishing between abilities that can or can't be blocked is kind of meaningless to a mag Sorc, because we don't really block anything except the occasional meteor, anyway. I can't block curses, either, but they rarely cause me any trouble. POTL and Subs rip me a new one every time, though. You don't see me on here starting threads about nerfing either of those, so I don't get why I'm being called biased or unobjective or whatever.

Olupajmibanan · May 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Why is it such a big deal that Curse needs to get "counterplay" options other than cleansing, while Bleeds are left out of the conversation? They can't be blocked either, and even increasing your resists won't help. There are two different proc'd bleeds available to all Stamina classes; they don't require a bar slot, resource expenditure, or global cooldown, and can individually do roughly similar damage in 2 ticks that a Curse will do in 1 explosion (and sometimes more, especially if you're running high resistances).

This is it. Curse is but a one of many strong debuffs that need counterplay. Focusing on Curse only is a wrong way to go.

We need Purge which has practical use for everyone. Rather, focus on Purge rework and come up with ideas.

My idea is 1 morph of Purge be as following:
-3500 base magicka cost
- Cleanses all negative effects only from yourself on-cast.
- The cost of Purge is increased by 1000% for 8 seconds after using it.

This would add another layer of skill. Purge would be a very powerful debuff removal tool if used right. But to ensure that it is not an autowin against certain builds, I would leave the 8 seconds window opportunity for opponent to take you down.

DisgracefulMind · May 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

pieratsos · May 2019

Daus wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This thread was intended to be focused on Daedric Curse counterplay and perhaps the availability of reliable purges to all build specs, not Nightblades. Please stop derailing my thread with Nightblade nonsense.

It's because I commented. A lot of people struggle to have a reasonable conversation while having an opposing opinion so they go full toddler tantrum. Thankfully you have people that are capable of having an adult conversation like Derra and Chilly-McFreeze.

What reasonable conversation? In every single thread you want frag nerf, curse nerf, fury nerf, shield nerf, pets nerf etc while at the same time comparing abilities in such a biased way just to fit it in ur agenda. The key word in the phrase "reasonable conversation" its the word reasonable. You need to see reason before you are able to have a reasonable conversation.

When you are saying that curse is better than incap or frags hits as hard as merciless and its easier to proc it while ignoring all the secondary effects of merciless and the fact that frag doesnt even hit as hard as merciless and then trying to make merciless look like an easily countered ability that isnt even that good while ignoring that frags has literally the exact same counters but want it nerfed either way so it become useless once again then you are not reasonable. You are just biased and you are spreading nonsense cause the only thing reasonable to you is for everything you dont like to be nerfed to the ground and everything you like to be broken OP.

And the worst part is that whenever someone calls you out for the nonsense you are spreading and can actually back up his claims, you are either disappearing or you just resort to crap like "you cant have a reasonable conversation". So yeah next time you want to tell people that they cant have a reasonable conversation you may want to educate urself on what reasonable even means. When the entire forum is calling you out, it would be reasonable for you to rethink what you are saying. Sorry bud either everyone is stupid or you are just wrong. Guess which one of two is more reasonable.