Sorceror Daedric Curse needs meaningful counterplay in PvP

Emma_Overload

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

Lol, this is literally what everyone says about players who die to curse-frag-fury combo. So what are you complaining about? If you're not a potato, why are you complaining about spells that are only good for mashing potatoes? Curse has counters, you just choose not to use them. Curse doesn't need a nerf, you just need to buff your play style.

DisgracefulMind

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

Lol, this is literally what everyone says about players who die to curse-frag-fury combo. So what are you complaining about? If you're not a potato, why are you complaining about spells that are only good for mashing potatoes? Curse has counters, you just choose not to use them. Curse doesn't need a nerf, you just need to buff your play style.

I'm not saying I have a huge issue with sorcs, I'm simply agreeing there needs to be a counter to curse. You're on NA, right? You can contact me for a 1v1 anytime you want instead of calling me a potato. Thanks.

Take care,
Wyress Bee

ku5h

Daus wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

"Hard-hitting abilities should be blockable" - ZoS
*fissure becomes blockable*

So should curse, once again, be blockable.

Nah it should be dodgeable. Streak is already undodgeable so this ability should be unblockable.

Yea because that makes sense, you even go that far you want to turn it into projectile just so your dodge rolly setup has easy counter to only skill in sorc setup that can reliably do dmg to you. Biases? No, yes, ofc you are, by now everyone knows it.

NupidStoob

I agree with the sentiment that counterplay should be more readily available in the way of more interesting purge abilities. All strong debuffs offer little to no counterplay.

Others have already pointed out that everything in Sorcs kit has counterplay and the curse alone should never kill you.

I agree that Sorc is currently overperforming, but that is mainly due to the necropotence (well 5th piece bonuses affected by CP), pet and healing ward changes. Necropotence got nerfed in the past, but with this change it is so strong that classes without pet run it just with shadowrend (which probably also should get some uptime nerf).

I am not really pvping on my sorc this patch since I really dislike this meta. I would much prefer to have one good healing ability and no pets on my bars

ku5h

Gilvoth wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Another NB was pulled out of stealth by curse, and therefore it is overloaded. Lol! just LOL!

its not just once, it constantly "keeps" us out of stealth.
boom boom boom boom boom boom, its constant, and if we purge it you guys just spam it, the whole entire fight with all sorcs for the last few years is just constant spaming curse the Whole fight.

So when ppl complain about how stealth is strong, NBs answer is always "there are counters to stealth, use them". When Sorc ose his only counter to stealth, that is by it's delayed nature not that great anyway, NBs complain "maaam that guy used counter to my stealth, I can't perma stealth". Make up your mind guys.

Emma_Overload

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

Lol, this is literally what everyone says about players who die to curse-frag-fury combo. So what are you complaining about? If you're not a potato, why are you complaining about spells that are only good for mashing potatoes? Curse has counters, you just choose not to use them. Curse doesn't need a nerf, you just need to buff your play style.

I'm not saying I have a huge issue with sorcs, I'm simply agreeing there needs to be a counter to curse. You're on NA, right? You can contact me for a 1v1 anytime you want instead of calling me a potato. Thanks.

Take care,
Wyress Bee

If you're going to be triggered by the word potato, maybe it's not wise to throw around words like "pug" so pejoratively? BTW how exactly do you main 5 different specs? It doesn't sound to me like you've mained anything.

I main Magicka Sorcerer, period. You can come down to the Imperial City, Shor or Vivec on NA PC, and you will find me sooner or later.

Have a blessed day,

Ssen Unni

Aedaryl

Curse isn't OP, because is has a delay minimum 3.5s/6s depending the morph.

The skill has a clear animation a purple or blue cloud, and is dangerous only when combined with other skills.

The all sorc combo is timed around this skill, and so extremely predictable. You exactly know when the sorc will "burst"

The telegraph the curse has mean you can block or dodge or heal all the combo and take little damage.

If curse is unblockable/undodgeable, it's because it's the only damage that can pressure the enemy when the all combo that's extremely telegraphed is countered.

You can just prepare for outhealing curse and by the way countering all the other skills in the combo. This is the counter. You know when it's come and by a single hot + block/ hot + dodge / shield + heal / shield + dodge / burst heal + block / burst heal + dodge.

I can see one situation where the skill is overperforming : when multiple curse of the same morph are stacked (and timed) on the target.

The only nerf acceptable that will not destroy the class by making it useless (press 1 button and you take almost no damage from a 4s set up combo) is making the same curse moprh unstackable.

DisgracefulMind

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

Lol, this is literally what everyone says about players who die to curse-frag-fury combo. So what are you complaining about? If you're not a potato, why are you complaining about spells that are only good for mashing potatoes? Curse has counters, you just choose not to use them. Curse doesn't need a nerf, you just need to buff your play style.

I'm not saying I have a huge issue with sorcs, I'm simply agreeing there needs to be a counter to curse. You're on NA, right? You can contact me for a 1v1 anytime you want instead of calling me a potato. Thanks.

Take care,
Wyress Bee

If you're going to be triggered by the word potato, maybe it's not wise to throw around words like "pug" so pejoratively? BTW how exactly do you main 5 different specs? It doesn't sound to me like you've mained anything.

I main Magicka Sorcerer, period. You can come down to the Imperial City, Shor or Vivec on NA PC, and you will find me sooner or later.

Have a blessed day,

Ssen Unni

Coming from you, who got 1vXed in multiple videos, right.

Cheers.

Emma_Overload

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

It never fails to hit me, so yeah, I guess... 🤷‍♂️

Then you're absolutely awful at countering it and need to learn? I don't know what else to tell you. I have mained Magplar, Magsorc, Magden, Stamsorc, StamNB, and in every duel I've been in, in every open world counter, I can counter a Magden or Stamden better than any spec. You literally just kite around their Fissure/Shalk. Pugs die to it. That's what Magden is good at: killing pugs.

Lol, this is literally what everyone says about players who die to curse-frag-fury combo. So what are you complaining about? If you're not a potato, why are you complaining about spells that are only good for mashing potatoes? Curse has counters, you just choose not to use them. Curse doesn't need a nerf, you just need to buff your play style.

I'm not saying I have a huge issue with sorcs, I'm simply agreeing there needs to be a counter to curse. You're on NA, right? You can contact me for a 1v1 anytime you want instead of calling me a potato. Thanks.

Take care,
Wyress Bee

If you're going to be triggered by the word potato, maybe it's not wise to throw around words like "pug" so pejoratively? BTW how exactly do you main 5 different specs? It doesn't sound to me like you've mained anything.

I main Magicka Sorcerer, period. You can come down to the Imperial City, Shor or Vivec on NA PC, and you will find me sooner or later.

Have a blessed day,

Ssen Unni

Coming from you, who got 1vXed in multiple videos, right.

Cheers.

LOL, did you just walk into 6th grade homeroom and say "My Dad could kick your ass!"???

Because that's EXACTLY what you sound like, ha ha ha ha ha, like some kid talking trash at recess. For the record, I can name at least hundred players who have killed me...some good, some bad and some just lucky. I can name a dozen players that frequent these forums who have killed me. I can even name a handful of "famous" 1vXers or streamers who have killed me.

You know who I'm pretty sure has NOT killed me? YOU, LOL. Otherwise you would have mentioned it already.

You are a most certainly a potato, and you've proven it with your salty potato argument. And THAT is why you want to get Curse nerfed. Some Sorc somewhere turned you into a pile of french fries... might have even been me

I've already told you where I can be found. That's all I have to say to you on this subject.

Signed,

Ssen Unni @ssen.unni DC faction, NA PC

Juhasow

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

If they make Curse unstackable, then POTL and Sub Assault need to be unstackable, too.

Does this mean I'll get a guaranteed hit on someone with Fissure?

Yes. Just right after taking away breach , lowering tooltip and increasing the cost of it.

Beardimus

Joy_Division wrote: »

People are countering it with 30K+ health builds, sets that give major evasion like candy, and overtuned healing.

Spot on.

Plus Rock, Paper, scissors. Curse is the meaningful counterplay to other things. Rekt it and they become OP.

If you are paper you always hate on scissors.

Rikumaru

While I don't think sorcs should get nerfed in any areas other than matriarch, I don't really agree with people saying there is easy counterplay to curse via "being more tanky". This reasoning is literally why you have everyone running around in Cyrodill in a super tanky setup because there is just far too many things in the game which their only counter is being tanky.

Imo curse should have been left alone, being blockable, only 1 being able to be applied to you and only having a detonation at 3.5s. Of course with a nerf like that sorcs should in turn be buffed, something like frags stunning again should do it. Sorcs were perfectly fine when these things existed. But the game really should have more counterplay outside of "hurdur build moar tanky!!!".

Lord-Otto

Rikumaru wrote: »

While I don't think sorcs should get nerfed in any areas other than matriarch, I don't really agree with people saying there is easy counterplay to curse via "being more tanky". This reasoning is literally why you have everyone running around in Cyrodill in a super tanky setup because there is just far too many things in the game which their only counter is being tanky.

Imo curse should have been left alone, being blockable, only 1 being able to be applied to you and only having a detonation at 3.5s. Of course with a nerf like that sorcs should in turn be buffed, something like frags stunning again should do it. Sorcs were perfectly fine when these things existed. But the game really should have more counterplay outside of "hurdur build moar tanky!!!".

How do you counter Fear and Fossilize? Sorcs don't have a guaranteed CC to prime a guaranteed burst hit. Therefore, we have Curse to fit that bill. And it having a very obvious telegraph is so much better to deal with than Fear->Spectral. Or Meteor->Fossilize.

Rikumaru

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

While I don't think sorcs should get nerfed in any areas other than matriarch, I don't really agree with people saying there is easy counterplay to curse via "being more tanky". This reasoning is literally why you have everyone running around in Cyrodill in a super tanky setup because there is just far too many things in the game which their only counter is being tanky.

Imo curse should have been left alone, being blockable, only 1 being able to be applied to you and only having a detonation at 3.5s. Of course with a nerf like that sorcs should in turn be buffed, something like frags stunning again should do it. Sorcs were perfectly fine when these things existed. But the game really should have more counterplay outside of "hurdur build moar tanky!!!".

How do you counter Fear and Fossilize? Sorcs don't have a guaranteed CC to prime a guaranteed burst hit. Therefore, we have Curse to fit that bill. And it having a very obvious telegraph is so much better to deal with than Fear->Spectral. Or Meteor->Fossilize.

It's not really fair to compare CC's and high burst damage. The reason sorc's don't have a guaranteed CC is because sorc's kit is designed around pre-emptive burst and having a guaranteed CC would be very OP with said kit. This is why rune cage was nerfed.

Derra

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Ok now put the warden and sorc in a group vs group fight situation and explain again to me how good curse is compared to shalks, please?

This argument of you is solely based around 1v1 and even there it´s a stretch to say curse is hands down better than shalks - because shalks still applies breach/fracture.

That being said i´d be down to make haunting curse into sth more dotish - higher frequency explosions 4x instead of two at halve the dmg.
Yes would make the ability more braindead for some people but oh well.

StShoot

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

the only problem i have with curse is that its delayed xD, but maybe im just jealous.
as a mag dk i have to go in ´mealy range to deal any dmg and every little thing i can do is dodgeable. Also i dont have a delayed abillity to back up burst, so yeah im just jealous =P

Derra

NyassaV wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Remove the second explosion

Sure thing, even tho it's a nice cloak breaker. But it was never asked for from the community to begin with. But how would you balance the two curse morphs against each other? Simply reduce cost? Or give it to stam?

Sorcs have enough skills to break cloak. That's why I internally barf when a sorc uses detect pots. The only class that needs detect pots are 2h/bow Stamblade and Magblade

What skills apart from curse do sorcs have to break cloak?

Are you suggesting cost increase stacking streak? My stamblade can cloak more often in a row than a 45k magica breton sorc can port.

Derra

StShoot wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

the only problem i have with curse is that its delayed xD, but maybe im just jealous.
as a mag dk i have to go in ´mealy range to deal any dmg and every little thing i can do is dodgeable. Also i dont have a delayed abillity to back up burst, so yeah im just jealous =P

Fiery breath just received a massive initial dmg increase + dot dmg increase on pts while also being undodgeable + being one of the best buffskills in the game.

You can complement that with flames of oblivion as a delayed burst dot ability + deep breath.

It takes more skill to setup than sorc burst but otherwise i wouldn´t put it too far behind in a scenario where range is not crucial.

Feanor

Derra wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Remove the second explosion

Sure thing, even tho it's a nice cloak breaker. But it was never asked for from the community to begin with. But how would you balance the two curse morphs against each other? Simply reduce cost? Or give it to stam?

Sorcs have enough skills to break cloak. That's why I internally barf when a sorc uses detect pots. The only class that needs detect pots are 2h/bow Stamblade and Magblade

What skills apart from curse do sorcs have to break cloak?

Are you suggesting cost increase stacking streak? My stamblade can cloak more often in a row than a 45k magica breton sorc can port.

Spam Lightning Flood for that awesome AoE.

MadMattatatta

The only problem I have with curse is that someone can hit you with it while on top of a keep 30 feet away. it makes no sense to me.

It also makes no sense that on the top of the same keep you can aim endless hail over the side and it lands on the level your toon is on.

Inconsistent game mechanic

Kikke

MadMattatatta wrote: »

The only problem I have with curse is that someone can hit you with it while on top of a keep 30 feet away. it makes no sense to me.

It also makes no sense that on the top of the same keep you can aim endless hail over the side and it lands on the level your toon is on.

Inconsistent game mechanic

Like snipe spammers standing at max range one shooting you with desynced snipes? RANGED abilities. stay out of their range. as easy as that.

MadMattatatta

Kikke wrote: »

Like snipe spammers standing at max range one shooting you with desynced snipes? RANGED abilities. stay out of their range. as easy as that.

but I don't believe curse is supposed to be a true ranged ability. A curse to me, from the animation, seems like something that is physically applied but does magic damage. So I don't believe a person should be able to apply it from more than 10 ft.

still doesn't make sense that endless hail doesn't fall to the ground from the top of a keep, but curse does

ZarkingFrued

So tired of all these crybabies who want nerfs to every class. Of you think your argument is viable then go to a nerf thread for your class and see if you agree there.

Feanor

MadMattatatta wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

Like snipe spammers standing at max range one shooting you with desynced snipes? RANGED abilities. stay out of their range. as easy as that.

but I don't believe curse is supposed to be a true ranged ability. A curse to me, from the animation, seems like something that is physically applied but does magic damage. So I don't believe a person should be able to apply it from more than 10 ft.

still doesn't make sense that endless hail doesn't fall to the ground from the top of a keep, but curse does

That’s a problem almost all targeted AoE skills share. It’s not specific to Endless Hail.