Sorceror Daedric Curse needs meaningful counterplay in PvP

xylena_lazarow

Daedric Curse and its morphs are both unblockable and undodgeable, with damage builds typically hitting for 6k or so against enemy players. Few specs in the game have reliable purge access, forcing players to build for passive "face tanking" as opposed to taking their own actions to mitigate this damage, as it is everywhere, and multiple Curses can stack on one player. There should be some action any build spec can actively take to mitigate Curse damage, perhaps something that can even be disrupted by a skilled Sorceror player.

NinchiTV

could use vigor when its about to pop, or block then heal since something always comes after the curse. Or vigor - dodge. If youre mag then w/e burst heal ya got.

HowlKimchi

imo something undodgeable should be blockable. Or something unblockable should be dodgeable, but never both... especially on point and click single target abilities.

darkblue5

*is on magblade* *burst heals with swallow, eats a frag to face, dies*
One of the things that's making magsorcs so good is this abilities all landing at once bug. I've had it happen to me and I've occasionally accidentally done it to people. It makes countering the burst wonky because some of the projectile get delayed and the whole usual timing you know from playing the class gets thrown off. That's ignoring lag where every class and spec 'has access' to this bug .

Strider__Roshin

HaruKamui wrote: »

imo something undodgeable should be blockable. Or something unblockable should be dodgeable, but never both... especially on point and click single target abilities.

Yeah it's over loaded

Emma_Overload

The last time y'all tried to nerf Curse, it ended up with a buff. Do you really want to go down this road again?

Olupajmibanan

This is not a Curse problem. The problem lays in general lack of counterplay against strong debuffs. Purge is widely available, yet hardly of any practical use.

Focus on Purge rework. That would solve a loooot of issues including Curse.

I have never seen a templar complaining about Curse, only NB crybabies that are brought out of cloak. We need Purge to be available to anyone AND to be really of practical use to anyone.

fullheartcontainer

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I have never seen a templar complaining about Curse, only NB crybabies that are brought out of cloak. We need Purge to be available to anyone AND to be really of practical use to anyone.

If you've never heard a templar complain about curse you haven't been listening. Perhaps we don't complain in quite the same way, but it does feel incredibly biased towards sorcs that they get this unblockable undodgeable cast-and-forget curse, and we get PotL which gets double mitigated and needs to be applied and then filled with damage to work and sometimes it doesn't even go off

Olupajmibanan

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I have never seen a templar complaining about Curse, only NB crybabies that are brought out of cloak. We need Purge to be available to anyone AND to be really of practical use to anyone.

If you've never heard a templar complain about curse you haven't been listening. Perhaps we don't complain in quite the same way, but it does feel incredibly biased towards sorcs that they get this unblockable undodgeable cast-and-forget curse, and we get PotL which gets double mitigated and needs to be applied and then filled with damage to work and sometimes it doesn't even go off

Sorcerer combo consists of 4 skills.
Destructive Reach - blockable, dodgeable, reflectable (SnB skill)
Crystal Fragments - blockable, dodgeable, reflectable
Endless Fury - blockable, dodgeable
Endless Fury explosion - if it's already on the target, it is blockable and purgeable
Curse - purgeablr. This is the only skill left that does something against well aware players, but even this is negated by magplar healbots.

Okay no matter. As OP said in the title of this topic, Curse needs counterplay. But I think its better to say, strong debuffs need a counterplay. That's why I recommend focusing on Purge rework.
Too much of a cost even for magicka characters. Maybe drastically reduce the cost of one morph but remove the ability to Purge allies? I honestly don't know what to do with Purge, but I feel that a lot of balancing potential lays in Purge.

Feanor

I agree Curse shouldn’t stack when it’s unblockable and undodgeable. But @Olupajmibanan has a valid point in my opinion - Curse is the only skill in the toolkit that actually does consistent damage vs a decent opponent.

I’d be all for an overhaul of the offensive toolkit - but the hints the Devs dropped at the class rep meeting in January haven’t shown in game yet.

Also a cost reduction (and maybe target adjustment) on purge may be good. One morph that costs more and affects 4 to 6 targets for group play and one morph that is cheaper than 5100 Magicka and affects only 1 target for solo play.

ATomiX96

Daus wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

imo something undodgeable should be blockable. Or something unblockable should be dodgeable, but never both... especially on point and click single target abilities.

Yeah it's over loaded

Everything thats not a nightblade skill is overloaded in your opinion.
Am I right or am I right?

Qbiken

Emma_Overload wrote: »

The last time y'all tried to nerf Curse, it ended up with a buff. Do you really want to go down this road again?

Seeing what ZOS did to incap in latest PTS I´m afraid of giving feedback at this point

pieratsos

Remove the second explosion

Chilly-McFreeze

pieratsos wrote: »

Remove the second explosion

Sure thing, even tho it's a nice cloak breaker. But it was never asked for from the community to begin with. But how would you balance the two curse morphs against each other? Simply reduce cost? Or give it to stam?

gepe87

Slot Purge. It removes curse

darkblue5

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Remove the second explosion

Sure thing, even tho it's a nice cloak breaker. But it was never asked for from the community to begin with. But how would you balance the two curse morphs against each other? Simply reduce cost? Or give it to stam?

No to removing second curse pop for PVE magsorcs. But actually a stam curse.... instead of the wack pet curse? Not easy to find the right visual flavor but would give stamsorcs some more uniqueness than run fast and flex between Negate and DBoS. Would be kinda boring in PVE rotations being just another single target DOT.

Probably would be winds damaging target ala Relequen.

Honestly don't think curse needs counterplay per se. I think a lot of mag sorc's potency rn is tied up in that bug with the projectile timing and it'd be a lot harder to coordinate the burst so perfectly without that.

MentalxHammer

It's time for magicka break free system. ZOS let us break free from NB silence (not negate), haunting curse, eclipse, soul assault, zaan pretty please!! This would still be punishing as we would waste a gcd breaking free, and stam builds would quickly be drained of magicka.

Universe

Nerf discussions needs a counterplay!
What do you propose ?

Seriously, Sorcerer's curse is fine and in fact 5%-10% boost to its damage is in order.

Derra

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

Mayrael

Curse on it's own isn't the problem at all. It can get problematic when combined with furry close to execution range but that's the sorcs hallmark - you don't want to fight against magsorc under 50% hp, that's all. I think there are a lot more problematic skills than curse which should have priority.

Strider__Roshin

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Olupajmibanan

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Just delete all the classes leaving Nightblade the only available class. Looking at all your posts in another threads, that's your vision of the game.

Okay, just for fun, I am in.
DELETE EVERYTHING! NIGHTBLADE IS THE ONLY CLASS YOU NEED!!!!!!!

pieratsos

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Remove the second explosion

Sure thing, even tho it's a nice cloak breaker. But it was never asked for from the community to begin with. But how would you balance the two curse morphs against each other? Simply reduce cost? Or give it to stam?

Give the pet morph to stam. Or not, that would be worse than warden burst. Dunno maybe make the other morph a dot or something so u can choose between sustained dmg or burst.

Then delete the pets and make them work like shadow image or something with actual synergy with the class.

Aurielle

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

(EDIT: brain fart, disregard first part of replay). Also, what is this “auto-kill execute” of which you speak? The secondary (purgeable) effect of a pre-cast Wrath/Fury (which is itself dodgeable) that kicks in at 20% and does not automatically guarantee a kill? Or are you referring to Implosion, the passive execute that no longer exists?

Either way, your pro-NB/anti-sorc bias is showing again.

pieratsos

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Are you seriously dying to a simple curse frag endless fury combo?

Kikke

Another NB was pulled out of stealth by curse, and therefore it is overloaded. Lol! just LOL!

Aedaryl

pieratsos wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Are you seriously dying to a simple curse frag endless fury combo?

He is playing mediumblade without cloak and seems to die from everything, so....

YAS

Sanguinor2

Aurielle wrote: »

Consider: in order to proc frags at least somewhat consistently, one must sacrifice defensive sets for increased crit ratings. Also, what is this “auto-kill execute” of which you speak? The secondary (purgeable) effect of a pre-cast Wrath/Fury (which is itself dodgeable) that kicks in at 20% and does not automatically guarantee a kill? Or are you referring to Implosion, the passive execute that no longer exists?

Either way, your pro-NB/anti-sorc bias is showing again.

Uhm unless they did a stealth change somewhere or I didnt pay attention to sorc patch notes at all then frags have a chance to proc from any mag ability cast on the same bar and dont proc from critical hits, you might have mixed it up with power surge perhaps? I mean I dont play sorc myself but Im pretty sure I wouldve noticed such a change.

I wouldnt mind curse actually getting counterplay that is avaiable to more people than templars (or people that gimp themselves with purge and sacrificied to the rng gods in order for purge to actually purge the curse) which is not stack spell resistance and HP.

I usually dont die to it on either magplar or magdk since on magplar I can cleanse it if I suspect that it might be necessary and on magdk I do take the curse without being able to do anything about it but I can reflect half of the following combo so I wont die to a single curse+magsorc combo unless I mess up. Even after the wings change reducing most of the combo damage by 50% instead of 100% will most assuredly be more than enough to survive a single magsorcs burst combo.

But being in a bg and seeing 4 curses on my debuff bar if Im playing my magdk? My only hope is that the sorcs are bad and cannot build for good damage or that I happen to have a resto ult up or a ritual nearby and my synergy isnt on cooldown. I suppose some random guy could run up to me and give me a barrier but he doesnt even know the amount of curses I have on me.

Edit: I dont think curse is such a strong ability that it requires immediate attention, I wouldnt mind if they changed something to give it counterplay beyond purge but it is not problematic enough on its own for me to call for a nerf.

Aurielle

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Consider: in order to proc frags at least somewhat consistently, one must sacrifice defensive sets for increased crit ratings. Also, what is this “auto-kill execute” of which you speak? The secondary (purgeable) effect of a pre-cast Wrath/Fury (which is itself dodgeable) that kicks in at 20% and does not automatically guarantee a kill? Or are you referring to Implosion, the passive execute that no longer exists?

Either way, your pro-NB/anti-sorc bias is showing again.

Uhm unless they did a stealth change somewhere or I didnt pay attention to sorc patch notes at all then frags have a chance to proc from any mag ability cast on the same bar and dont proc from critical hits, you might have mixed it up with power surge perhaps? I mean I dont play sorc myself but Im pretty sure I wouldve noticed such a change.

I wouldnt mind curse actually getting counterplay that is avaiable to more people than templars (or people that gimp themselves with purge and sacrificied to the rng gods in order for purge to actually purge the curse) which is not stack spell resistance and HP.

I usually dont die to it on either magplar or magdk since on magplar I can cleanse it if I suspect that it might be necessary and on magdk I do take the curse without being able to do anything about it but I can reflect half of the following combo so I wont die to a single curse+magsorc combo unless I mess up. Even after the wings change reducing most of the combo damage by 50% instead of 100% will most assuredly be more than enough to survive a single magsorcs burst combo.

But being in a bg and seeing 4 curses on my debuff bar if Im playing my magdk? My only hope is that the sorcs are bad and cannot build for good damage or that I happen to have a resto ult up or a ritual nearby and my synergy isnt on cooldown. I suppose some random guy could run up to me and give me a barrier but he doesnt even know the amount of curses I have on me.

Yeah, brain fart on my part (working 24 hrs in two days always kills me — shift work in high mental/physical stress professions is OP). I was thinking about Power Surge. Either way, Frags procs are reliant on RNG. I’d much rather have a reliable way of proccing frags a la Spectral Bow.

Aurielle

Aedaryl wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why do people think curse is overloaded?

It was stated by zos that curse (atleast haunting) somewhat fills the role of other classes damange over time skills - which sorc doesn´t really have.

Compare what curse offers to:
debilitate/cripple (not anymore...)
shalks
embers
fiery breath

All of these abilities are equally overloaded in different areas offering strong debuffs/buffs or other features. The only thing curse has going for it is being unavoidable - with a delay and heavy telegraph.
I don´t know in what world that constitutes an overloaded skill.

So the best example you gave was the Shalks because it behaves similar (delayed burst rather than a DoT) except you can avoid the Shalks by repositioning or (now) by blocking. Shalks is also the Warden's main burst and unless you have your Ult ready you're going to have difficulties bursting someone down.

With a magsorc you have Curse and you have another burst ability that can both go off consistently which is Crystal Frags; an ability that hits as hard as a spectral bow except you can fire it more frequently and it's easier to proc. Then these two hard hitting moves don't even need to kill your opponent all they need to do is get them to 20% and their auto-kill execute will do that for them.

So essentially this ability has the damage of Shalks, but with the easy application of Cripple; which is a DoT. Considering the magsorc's overall arsenal it's too good of an ability to be point-and-click. Now that wings have been changed I think it would be acceptable to make this ability a dodge-able projectile that's unblockable. You already have streak as your undodgeable (unless that's still bugged).

Are you seriously dying to a simple curse frag endless fury combo?

He is playing mediumblade without cloak and seems to die from everything, so....

YAS

Wait, WHAT? You mean to tell me this whole time we’re trying to reason with a medium armour NB who doesn’t even use Shadowy Disguise?

Daus, daus, daus. While I give you props for trying something different, if you’re trying to brawlblade in medium and haven’t invested heavily into resistances, then you’re deliberately gimping yourself. It is well known that Dark Cloak is only effective on high health HA builds, or high health LA healtanks that stack resistances and health recovery. You can’t play a medium NB like a medium stamden or a medium stam sorc. You just can’t. The class wasn’t designed with that sort of gameplay in mind.

Lord-Otto

Curse was made unblockable when Streak became blockable. You got it better, trust me. But sure, make Curse blockable and give sorcs an unavoidable CC like Fear and Fossilize, I'm happy with that!