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ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:
"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."
This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.
EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.
Which laws? As far as I know there is no such thing.
GDPR.
While I agree that Zos is not implementing this the right way I do not think there is any personally identifiable information in game that could lead to a violation of GDPR.
Zos is just committing a violation of common sense.
I wasn't sure about this either, but someone earlier posted the relevant snippet from the actual regulation, and it does specifically extend to pseudonyms or online avatars, which would mean character names in this case.
This may be why Zos setup so we can have our name blocked from the data. However, since we can easily record who was in the group via other means the "anonymous" setting Zos created is very weak.
Still, it means nothing until tested in court and I seriously doubt we will see anyone willing to pony up the cash to do so.
I think this is more about we need to make sure Zos knows we want them todo what is right, not what is easy. Understand, I want this tool. I just want it to be done the right way. Currently it is not.6 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Invasive.jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving [edited to remove profanity] more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?Edited by ZOS_RikardD on April 14, 2019 5:22PM9 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveThe only way this could be "ok" and satisfy all players is if they add 3rd option that would basically not record any data if one's decides so, by picking an option in a menu.
So we would have:
1. Default - all is recorded.
2. Anonyms - the game does not record your in game "nick", but records your actions.
3. Disabled - If this option is set, even if some one else in your group records to a log, it will not record any data of yours.
So if 1 player out of 4 has this enable, the log will only record 3 players.10 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Usefulanitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Just read the ToS of that website, where it's stated that our personal data WILL be collected (including ID, browsing data, etc.) and WILL BE SHARED/SOLD to third parties.
Note, you're misreading my site's Privacy Policy. It's just standard boilerplate language for showing ads on a Web site (e.g., Google AdSense). The only personal data the site collects is your email address for signup (and your ZOS account name if you choose to claim characters on the site). These are not shared with anyone. The email address is only used for account identification and to send signup and password reset emails, just like any other Web site with accounts.
I'm looking for a nice way to say "I don't believe you" but cannot find any. Sorry. This isn't personal though : I don't believe any site no matter how loud they claim to value privacy.
If I had these "concerns" about GDPR, the use of the data, the intentions of the developer, etc., I would take some time to research GDPR and its implications for game data collection. Because, of course, this isn't new territory. The *exact same feature* exists in numerous other MMOs, from the exact same developer. Beyond that, look at FPS games and MOBAs. Look at dotabuff.com or battlefieldtracker.com or, even in the ESO world, esoleaderboards.com or esoraiding.com. In particular, I would *really* take some time to understand the landscape of this information before going out of my way to slander the author of said tool by implication.
But, that's just me.
Honestly a lot of the "concerns" being posted here strike me as being somewhat disingenuous and largely misinformed, and the misinformation just keeps spreading and growing as the same people repeatedly throw new straw men on the fire.Edited by LiquidPony on April 13, 2019 11:15PM5 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Invasiveif everyone in the group consents then it shows.
if one person does not consent then it is shut off.
Dont show who voted to "not consent".
Edited by Gilvoth on April 13, 2019 11:37PM14 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.5 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Invasivejainiadral wrote: »Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!
See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.
I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.
I hope ZOS reconsiders this.
You run exclusively solo and you'e worried about it? *face palm*
If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??
Um, wow. If you think the only issues in gaming that impact people involve getting kicked from dungeon groups, you've been living in a cave far deeper than mine *shakes head*10 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveNo idea what this is about
@thedude33 On the last ESO live they presented a new feature that allows you to keep track of your and your group's performance. It collects all damage data and keeps track of your positions in throughout the instance. You can see graphs and icons move through the map of the dungeon while simultaneously checking out who was doing what when. This feature only works after the run is completed on a third party website so it can't be used to kick someone right there if they aren't dealing enough damage.
However you can't exactly opt out of the feature and can get your stats recorded and published against your will. You can choose to become anonymous, but that will only hide your name and nothing else, which still allows people who ran with you to determine your identity and talk badly about your lacking skill behind your back.
This thread discusses whether this feature is more useful or invasive.
I believe it is leaning on the invasive side as the feature to remain anonymous is not the default setting. It'll be up for testing on PTS on the 15th.
Wow, that is really poor.3 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Usefuljainiadral wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!
See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.
I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.
I hope ZOS reconsiders this.
You run exclusively solo and you'e worried about it? *face palm*
If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??
Um, wow. If you think the only issues in gaming that impact people involve getting kicked from dungeon groups, you've been living in a cave far deeper than mine *shakes head*
I'm a simple drama free man. I log on, dps and log off.1 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveVaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.2 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveMMLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.
So wrong in so many ways.
It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.
If I want you to know I will tell you.
That's exactly how it works though.
No it isn’t.
Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.
It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.
It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.
If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.
It doesn't let anyone view your performance if you are set to anonymous.
WRONG.
It records everything.. irrespective of whether I have consented or even know about it. it simply removes my name from the data. It will display it as Tank or DD 1 leaving you to clearly deduce my identity. ZOS might refer to this as anonymous data, but it is not, it is data that can be clearly and easily linked to individual users.
It then allows whoever recorded it, along with whoever runs this website and anyone else who has access to it to do ANYTHING THEY WANT with it. It provides players with no redress and no way of stopping the process.
The potential for bullying and intimidation this tool offers is immense. You only have to look at the many threads and posts on the subject of “why my group’s dps was so poor when I am so clearly fantastic” or “I am fed up of carrying people in PUGs” to see how toxic this will be.
Equally you only have to look at the many “I don’t want to do ANY group content because I feel I will get abused” posts to see what effect it might have on newer players..
You think it’s hard getting healers or tanks to PUG now? Good luck getting any of them to bother once this carcinogenic tool materialises.
This was exactly what I was thinking when I found out about this. For the life of me I can't think of a reason ZoS would implement this, unless there was a full opt out.6 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Invasivejainiadral wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!
See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.
I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.
I hope ZOS reconsiders this.
You run exclusively solo and you'e worried about it? *face palm*
If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??
Um, wow. If you think the only issues in gaming that impact people involve getting kicked from dungeon groups, you've been living in a cave far deeper than mine *shakes head*
I'm a simple drama free man. I log on, dps and log off.
Stay away from the gaming press, then
It'll warp your view of humanity forever 
FWIW, we mostly have the no-drama thing in common. I log in, quest, log off.
2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.
On PC, we've already got an Add-on that does some of that: Combat Metrics. It provides real-time info on combat events, and Kihra has stated that it will still be useful, as some of the info, like resource use, is better obtained with the in-game data.
In comparison, ESO Logs has more data tracking through the log, but the data analysis takes place after the encounter when the log is uploaded.
The biggest difference between them in terms of usage is that while CMX only gives the individual player their own combat parse, ESO Logs will enable the logger to view the combat parse of all players in their group for the logged encounter.
That has some interesting implications for privacy - (Leaving aside the major privacy issue that Anonymity is NOT the default).
First off, ZOS believes that because ESO Logs does its analysis after the encounter, it bypasses the issues that led to shelving a previous addon that gave players the ability to view individual group member's parses.
Second, CMX allows players to link their individual parse, and it is common practice in organized progression runs to post your parse as part of improving and progressing as a group. In that case, the group could easily work out the parse of anyone refusing to share their parse . This is is the same for ESO Logs in the case of one member of the logged group being anonymous, just like with a group all using CMX to post parses, the anonymous/non-posting member can be identified and their parse deduced.
In short, when I remove the debate over whether or not anonymity should be the default, ESO Logs actually looks very similar to what is already possible using CMX. A player who is set to Anonymous in ESO Logs has pretty much the same privacy that they do now in a group of players using CMX.
That's why I'm mostly concerned about making Anonymity the default, rather than the reverse, so that we start off with the same level of privacy we currently enjoy.6 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭InvasiveVaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.
On PC, we've already got an Add-on that does some of that: Combat Metrics. It provides real-time info on combat events, and Kihra has stated that it will still be useful, as some of the info, like resource use, is better obtained with the in-game data.
In comparison, ESO Logs has more data tracking through the log, but the data analysis takes place after the encounter when the log is uploaded.
The biggest difference between them in terms of usage is that while CMX only gives the individual player their own combat parse, ESO Logs will enable the logger to view the combat parse of all players in their group for the logged encounter.
That has some interesting implications for privacy - (Leaving aside the major privacy issue that Anonymity is NOT the default).
First off, ZOS believes that because ESO Logs does its analysis after the encounter, it bypasses the issues that led to shelving a previous addon that gave players the ability to view individual group member's parses.
Second, CMX allows players to link their individual parse, and it is common practice in organized progression runs to post your parse as part of improving and progressing as a group. In that case, the group could easily work out the parse of anyone refusing to share their parse . This is is the same for ESO Logs in the case of one member of the logged group being anonymous, just like with a group all using CMX to post parses, the anonymous/non-posting member can be identified and their parse deduced.
In short, when I remove the debate over whether or not anonymity should be the default, ESO Logs actually looks very similar to what is already possible using CMX. A player who is set to Anonymous in ESO Logs has pretty much the same privacy that they do now in a group of players using CMX.
That's why I'm mostly concerned about making Anonymity the default, rather than the reverse, so that we start off with the same level of privacy we currently enjoy.
Very well said. You are so good at succinct, understandable statements.0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »The only way this could be "ok" and satisfy all players is if they add 3rd option that would basically not record any data if one's decides so, by picking an option in a menu.
So we would have:
1. Default - all is recorded.
2. Anonyms - the game does not record your in game "nick", but records your actions.
3. Disabled - If this option is set, even if some one else in your group records to a log, it will not record any data of yours.
So if 1 player out of 4 has this enable, the log will only record 3 players.
According to @Kihra - ESOLogs dev - your option #3 would make the log completely unusable, so it's not possible to implement that.0 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveVaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.
On PC, we've already got an Add-on that does some of that: Combat Metrics. It provides real-time info on combat events, and Kihra has stated that it will still be useful, as some of the info, like resource use, is better obtained with the in-game data.
In comparison, ESO Logs has more data tracking through the log, but the data analysis takes place after the encounter when the log is uploaded.
The biggest difference between them in terms of usage is that while CMX only gives the individual player their own combat parse, ESO Logs will enable the logger to view the combat parse of all players in their group for the logged encounter.
That has some interesting implications for privacy - (Leaving aside the major privacy issue that Anonymity is NOT the default).
First off, ZOS believes that because ESO Logs does its analysis after the encounter, it bypasses the issues that led to shelving a previous addon that gave players the ability to view individual group member's parses.
Second, CMX allows players to link their individual parse, and it is common practice in organized progression runs to post your parse as part of improving and progressing as a group. In that case, the group could easily work out the parse of anyone refusing to share their parse . This is is the same for ESO Logs in the case of one member of the logged group being anonymous, just like with a group all using CMX to post parses, the anonymous/non-posting member can be identified and their parse deduced.
In short, when I remove the debate over whether or not anonymity should be the default, ESO Logs actually looks very similar to what is already possible using CMX. A player who is set to Anonymous in ESO Logs has pretty much the same privacy that they do now in a group of players using CMX.
That's why I'm mostly concerned about making Anonymity the default, rather than the reverse, so that we start off with the same level of privacy we currently enjoy.
Was torn between insightful and awesome on this, so awesome it is
Does CMX upload data to a third-party site or can that be enabled? For me, the big difference between add-ons and inbuilt functionality is that add-ons are totally voluntary, while the inbuilt function is foisted on everyone. Anonymity might be a good starting point, but a total shut-off option should be included as well.
Also, the third-party nature of ESOLogs concerns me. If ZOS ran a similar analytical site, we'd at least have a faint clue about security. Plus data would mostly stay in-house, where it belongs.5 -
Kihra✭✭✭UsefulYdrisselle wrote: »According to @Kihra - ESOLogs dev - your option #3 would make the log completely unusable, so it's not possible to implement that.
I mean, it's possible, but I wouldn't be able to allow a log like that to rank, and I would probably need to put a big disclaimer on it that data was missing.
0 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭InvasiveAre these being added or is this just wishful thinking?Hoping for more playable races0 -
Alexsae✭✭✭Invasive
You didn't play World of Warcraft, WildStar or Final Fantasy 14, did you? Because if you did, I have bad news for you. Called warcraftlogs.com, wildstarlogs.com and fflogs.com.Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is f*okin' atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.
I also wonder how you know that no one ever did post a log of you of another game in any form on a public website.
Yes, really does make you wonder why Kihra would have a privacy policy dated back a year when they run three (two) other logging sites just like esologs. It also makes you wonder why in the six years that warcraftlogs.com is online no one made a Hall of Shame or used it to kick people from random <insert difficulty mode> dungeons that at least in ESO and WoW do not have very high dps requirements at all.Alienoutlaw wrote: »secondly very interesting the date stated on the site
ESO Logs Privacy Policy
Last Updated on May 25, 2018.
This Privacy Policy is effective immediately for users that sign up for accounts on or after May 25, 2018 and will become effective on May 25, 2018 for users that already have accounts.
makes you wonder................
It also makes you wonder why ESO is the only game that offers an anonymity switch (which as far as I know, we don't have confirmation if it is opt-in or opt-out yet).
You all act like they're stealing your credit card numbers or anything. Most people that would visit any public logging website would be much more interested to look at good players, so the people ranked in the top 100 if we're generous.
Before all of this backlash I would have said that no one in their right mind would even care to look at the extremely low ranked people, but since you all make it seem like the "toxic elitists" will now come down on you and create an ESO Hall of Shame it may very well happen.
Key point is WITH NO WAY TO OPT OUT. Participation should be optional. Those who don't participate won't get into more competitive guilds, but again, it should be a choice. Yes I played wow and fully participated in the whole gear score thing at the time, many years ago.9 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hoping for more playable races9 -
Alexsae✭✭✭InvasiveVioletVience wrote: »Here's the big But. Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is f*okin' atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.
You have less than 10k dps?
Well, that's jumping to an extreme assumption, now isn't it.
5 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Invasive
You didn't play World of Warcraft, WildStar or Final Fantasy 14, did you? Because if you did, I have bad news for you. Called warcraftlogs.com, wildstarlogs.com and fflogs.com.Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is f*okin' atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.
I also wonder how you know that no one ever did post a log of you of another game in any form on a public website.
Yes, really does make you wonder why Kihra would have a privacy policy dated back a year when they run three (two) other logging sites just like esologs. It also makes you wonder why in the six years that warcraftlogs.com is online no one made a Hall of Shame or used it to kick people from random <insert difficulty mode> dungeons that at least in ESO and WoW do not have very high dps requirements at all.Alienoutlaw wrote: »secondly very interesting the date stated on the site
ESO Logs Privacy Policy
Last Updated on May 25, 2018.
This Privacy Policy is effective immediately for users that sign up for accounts on or after May 25, 2018 and will become effective on May 25, 2018 for users that already have accounts.
makes you wonder................
It also makes you wonder why ESO is the only game that offers an anonymity switch (which as far as I know, we don't have confirmation if it is opt-in or opt-out yet).
You all act like they're stealing your credit card numbers or anything. Most people that would visit any public logging website would be much more interested to look at good players, so the people ranked in the top 100 if we're generous.
Before all of this backlash I would have said that no one in their right mind would even care to look at the extremely low ranked people, but since you all make it seem like the "toxic elitists" will now come down on you and create an ESO Hall of Shame it may very well happen.
Key point is WITH NO WAY TO OPT OUT. Participation should be optional. Those who don't participate won't get into more competitive guilds, but again, it should be a choice. Yes I played wow and fully participated in the whole gear score thing at the time, many years ago.
I quit WoW just as this was ramping up there. It was one of the many "straws" that broke my camel's back with that game. I cancelled 7 accounts (each paid 6 months at a time), and have never been back. I don't do FF - SO not my thing, but had it been my thing (the game itself I mean), I would have quit it for the same reason(s).
I'm paying 2 ESO+ subs now, 6 months at a time. We'll see how this goes. But y'know.... I can quite easily quit here over privacy issues, and go back to Skyrim.7 -
DyingIsEasy✭✭✭Useful
You didn't play World of Warcraft, WildStar or Final Fantasy 14, did you? Because if you did, I have bad news for you. Called warcraftlogs.com, wildstarlogs.com and fflogs.com.Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is f*okin' atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.
I also wonder how you know that no one ever did post a log of you of another game in any form on a public website.
Yes, really does make you wonder why Kihra would have a privacy policy dated back a year when they run three (two) other logging sites just like esologs. It also makes you wonder why in the six years that warcraftlogs.com is online no one made a Hall of Shame or used it to kick people from random <insert difficulty mode> dungeons that at least in ESO and WoW do not have very high dps requirements at all.Alienoutlaw wrote: »secondly very interesting the date stated on the site
ESO Logs Privacy Policy
Last Updated on May 25, 2018.
This Privacy Policy is effective immediately for users that sign up for accounts on or after May 25, 2018 and will become effective on May 25, 2018 for users that already have accounts.
makes you wonder................
It also makes you wonder why ESO is the only game that offers an anonymity switch (which as far as I know, we don't have confirmation if it is opt-in or opt-out yet).
You all act like they're stealing your credit card numbers or anything. Most people that would visit any public logging website would be much more interested to look at good players, so the people ranked in the top 100 if we're generous.
Before all of this backlash I would have said that no one in their right mind would even care to look at the extremely low ranked people, but since you all make it seem like the "toxic elitists" will now come down on you and create an ESO Hall of Shame it may very well happen.
Key point is WITH NO WAY TO OPT OUT. Participation should be optional. Those who don't participate won't get into more competitive guilds, but again, it should be a choice. Yes I played wow and fully participated in the whole gear score thing at the time, many years ago.
Not true
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1
0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.
On PC, we've already got an Add-on that does some of that: Combat Metrics. It provides real-time info on combat events, and Kihra has stated that it will still be useful, as some of the info, like resource use, is better obtained with the in-game data.
In comparison, ESO Logs has more data tracking through the log, but the data analysis takes place after the encounter when the log is uploaded.
The biggest difference between them in terms of usage is that while CMX only gives the individual player their own combat parse, ESO Logs will enable the logger to view the combat parse of all players in their group for the logged encounter.
That has some interesting implications for privacy - (Leaving aside the major privacy issue that Anonymity is NOT the default).
First off, ZOS believes that because ESO Logs does its analysis after the encounter, it bypasses the issues that led to shelving a previous addon that gave players the ability to view individual group member's parses.
Second, CMX allows players to link their individual parse, and it is common practice in organized progression runs to post your parse as part of improving and progressing as a group. In that case, the group could easily work out the parse of anyone refusing to share their parse . This is is the same for ESO Logs in the case of one member of the logged group being anonymous, just like with a group all using CMX to post parses, the anonymous/non-posting member can be identified and their parse deduced.
In short, when I remove the debate over whether or not anonymity should be the default, ESO Logs actually looks very similar to what is already possible using CMX. A player who is set to Anonymous in ESO Logs has pretty much the same privacy that they do now in a group of players using CMX.
That's why I'm mostly concerned about making Anonymity the default, rather than the reverse, so that we start off with the same level of privacy we currently enjoy.
Was torn between insightful and awesome on this, so awesome it is
Does CMX upload data to a third-party site or can that be enabled? For me, the big difference between add-ons and inbuilt functionality is that add-ons are totally voluntary, while the inbuilt function is foisted on everyone. Anonymity might be a good starting point, but a total shut-off option should be included as well.
Also, the third-party nature of ESOLogs concerns me. If ZOS ran a similar analytical site, we'd at least have a faint clue about security. Plus data would mostly stay in-house, where it belongs.
I don't believe CMX does uploads, though you've probably seen people post their parses on the forums. ESO Logs looks like it has a lot more functionality in terms of what info its records for parses and how people can post their logs.
When it comes to voluntary vs foisted on everyone, CMX is voluntary to use, but you don't get to opt out of someone else using it in your group. So if everyone else in your group posts their parse which includes their percentage of the group DPS, everyone can use that as a starting point to figure out your portion of the group DPS too.
A player set to "Anonymous" in ESO Logs is in the same boat. ESO Logs is voluntary to use, but currently you don't get to opt out of having your data recorded for technical reasons, only whether or not your character name is attached to it. Everyone who was in the group can use the known info to figure out your part in the parse, even if you are Anonymous (exactly the same as being the one player who doesn't post a CMX parse). The main difference is that no one not in the group is going to know who that Anonymous player was (unless someone in the group disrespects your anonymous state by inserting your name, which would presumably be naming and shaming).
The biggest difference is in the player control over what does and doesn't get posted. With CMX, you get to decide whether or not to post, share, or screenshot your parse. For ESO Logs, anyone can record, upload, and post/'share any encounter they want with whoever they want. The only control you have over it (currently) is whether or not your Character Name is attached or you are Anonymous.
I don't know enough about ESO Logs or their similar sites for other games to comment on their security.4 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭InvasiveVaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »jainiadral wrote: ».jainiadral wrote: »See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.
Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?
Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?
Ever hear of doxxing? Swatting? Heck, we've had anecdotal reports of in-game stalking on these forums. Giving @sshats more trolling ammunition is not a good idea. In-game bullying can have a huge IRL impact on vulnerable people.
I'm personally at low risk because, hey, solo player who never chats and minds her own business with one friend I only talked to once. And few people I know IRL know I even play games, let alone which ones. BUT that doesn't mean I want anything of mine open for public viewing. I've uninstalled games for far less egregious privacy issues.
I'm fine with this tool if it has an opt-in or permanent opt-out toggle. That way, everyone who wants to use it can and everyone who has issues with it can avoid it like the plague.
But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?
Ideally, we need this tool to identify areas where we can improve our own gameplay or our gameplay as an organized raid. Its a tool to identify areas where the group or players struggles, so those areas can be targeted for improvement.
That's why ESO Logs has the potential to be incredibly useful.
Now, unfortunately, until Anonymity is the default, ESO Logs also has the potential to be extremely invasive, because unless you take specific steps, your character name is attached to your logs and available for the logger to share with anyone. You don't get to control when, how, or where those logs are shared if they have your character name on them - you only get to decide whether to show your name or be anonymous.
Have an insightful
I'd kind of guessed that already but not with that level of detail. TBH, I think an add-on would be the best approach to dealing with high-end players' needs on PC, with an opt-in in-game function for console players. Or ZOS creating its own controlled data site, leaving unknown third parties out, with a full opt-out for players who don't want to participate.
On PC, we've already got an Add-on that does some of that: Combat Metrics. It provides real-time info on combat events, and Kihra has stated that it will still be useful, as some of the info, like resource use, is better obtained with the in-game data.
In comparison, ESO Logs has more data tracking through the log, but the data analysis takes place after the encounter when the log is uploaded.
The biggest difference between them in terms of usage is that while CMX only gives the individual player their own combat parse, ESO Logs will enable the logger to view the combat parse of all players in their group for the logged encounter.
That has some interesting implications for privacy - (Leaving aside the major privacy issue that Anonymity is NOT the default).
First off, ZOS believes that because ESO Logs does its analysis after the encounter, it bypasses the issues that led to shelving a previous addon that gave players the ability to view individual group member's parses.
Second, CMX allows players to link their individual parse, and it is common practice in organized progression runs to post your parse as part of improving and progressing as a group. In that case, the group could easily work out the parse of anyone refusing to share their parse . This is is the same for ESO Logs in the case of one member of the logged group being anonymous, just like with a group all using CMX to post parses, the anonymous/non-posting member can be identified and their parse deduced.
In short, when I remove the debate over whether or not anonymity should be the default, ESO Logs actually looks very similar to what is already possible using CMX. A player who is set to Anonymous in ESO Logs has pretty much the same privacy that they do now in a group of players using CMX.
That's why I'm mostly concerned about making Anonymity the default, rather than the reverse, so that we start off with the same level of privacy we currently enjoy.
Was torn between insightful and awesome on this, so awesome it is
Does CMX upload data to a third-party site or can that be enabled? For me, the big difference between add-ons and inbuilt functionality is that add-ons are totally voluntary, while the inbuilt function is foisted on everyone. Anonymity might be a good starting point, but a total shut-off option should be included as well.
Also, the third-party nature of ESOLogs concerns me. If ZOS ran a similar analytical site, we'd at least have a faint clue about security. Plus data would mostly stay in-house, where it belongs.
I don't believe CMX does uploads, though you've probably seen people post their parses on the forums. ESO Logs looks like it has a lot more functionality in terms of what info its records for parses and how people can post their logs.
When it comes to voluntary vs foisted on everyone, CMX is voluntary to use, but you don't get to opt out of someone else using it in your group. So if everyone else in your group posts their parse which includes their percentage of the group DPS, everyone can use that as a starting point to figure out your portion of the group DPS too.
A player set to "Anonymous" in ESO Logs is in the same boat. ESO Logs is voluntary to use, but currently you don't get to opt out of having your data recorded for technical reasons, only whether or not your character name is attached to it. Everyone who was in the group can use the known info to figure out your part in the parse, even if you are Anonymous (exactly the same as being the one player who doesn't post a CMX parse). The main difference is that no one not in the group is going to know who that Anonymous player was (unless someone in the group disrespects your anonymous state by inserting your name, which would presumably be naming and shaming).
The biggest difference is in the player control over what does and doesn't get posted. With CMX, you get to decide whether or not to post, share, or screenshot your parse. For ESO Logs, anyone can record, upload, and post/'share any encounter they want with whoever they want. The only control you have over it (currently) is whether or not your Character Name is attached or you are Anonymous.
I don't know enough about ESO Logs or their similar sites for other games to comment on their security.
Is that what those graphs are? Neat! I can't make heads or tails of them, but they're pretty So many rainbow colors...
Thanks for the info
I had some vague suspicions that this was how both systems worked, so it's nice to get some concrete facts. 0 -
ZirconJunkie✭✭✭✭InvasiveIf ESO Logs streams the combat data in real time to this third party website, it seems there's nothing that can be done to stop it. Flagging yourself as "Anonymous" isn't the same as opting out. The data is still being collected.
If ESO Logs is anything like Tamriel Trade Center, the information is collected in a log file and only sent when you log off or /reloadui. Just write protect the file and no data will be written to it.
3 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭UsefulZirconJunkie wrote: »If ESO Logs streams the combat data in real time to this third party website, it seems there's nothing that can be done to stop it. Flagging yourself as "Anonymous" isn't the same as opting out. The data is still being collected.
If ESO Logs is anything like Tamriel Trade Center, the information is collected in a log file and only sent when you log off or /reloadui. Just write protect the file and no data will be written to it.
The information is written to a log file that needs to uploaded later. This won't be perfect though as your "data" can still be collected by someone else in your group and uploaded.2 -
witchdoctor✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZirconJunkie wrote: »If ESO Logs streams the combat data in real time to this third party website ...
To reiterate, and repeat, since this seems to be ignored by several ...
It is not real-time.
If someone in your PUG trial/dungeon is logging, they will not have some real-time view of what you are, are not, could be, have, have not, etc., etc., done.2 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭witchdoctor wrote: »ZirconJunkie wrote: »If ESO Logs streams the combat data in real time to this third party website ...
To reiterate, and repeat, since this seems to be ignored by several ...
It is not real-time.
If someone in your PUG trial/dungeon is logging, they will not have some real-time view of what you are, are not, could be, have, have not, etc., etc., done.
Doesn't stop anyone from making reddit threads about so and so having the worst dps don't invite them later on7
This discussion has been closed.