ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

JadeCoin · April 2019

Invasive

We are guests on Zenimax's servers and, yes, technically everything belongs to them. Still, there are courteous and discourteous ways of treating your guests. Generally you want to make them feel as comfortable as possible, "at home" in your home.

I think the use of this tool could backfire. It will almost certainly keep people who are shy or self-conscious about their DPS out of group content. These people tend to avoid it already; now they may not even give it a shot.

An opt-out feature is all that is needed and both sides can have what they want. That would be win-win.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

Invasive

Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!

Parrot1986 · April 2019

Useful

FierceSam wrote: »

M

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So wrong in so many ways.

It should be MY choice whether ANYONE else, friend, guildmate, or pugger gets to see my numbers. This toxic system doesn’t even let me know they’re recording them.

If I want you to know I will tell you.

That's exactly how it works though.

No it isn’t.

Once activated by a single player, it secretly records all the data from your group irrespective of whether you ask or tell the others that you are doing this. It allows YOU to secretly view my performance without my permission and then do anything you want with my performance data.

It neither informs me that this is being done, nor provides me with any way of viewing, amending or deleting my data.

It then squirrels the data away on a third party website, allowing THEM to gather data on all players and do whatever they please with it.

If that doesn’t worry you to some extent I politely suggest you haven’t thought it through.

It doesn't let anyone view your performance if you are set to anonymous.

WRONG.

It records everything.. irrespective of whether I have consented or even know about it. it simply removes my name from the data. It will display it as Tank or DD 1 leaving you to clearly deduce my identity. ZOS might refer to this as anonymous data, but it is not, it is data that can be clearly and easily linked to individual users.

It then allows whoever recorded it, along with whoever runs this website and anyone else who has access to it to do ANYTHING THEY WANT with it. It provides players with no redress and no way of stopping the process.

The potential for bullying and intimidation this tool offers is immense. You only have to look at the many threads and posts on the subject of “why my group’s dps was so poor when I am so clearly fantastic” or “I am fed up of carrying people in PUGs” to see how toxic this will be.

Equally you only have to look at the many “I don’t want to do ANY group content because I feel I will get abused” posts to see what effect it might have on newer players..

You think it’s hard getting healers or tanks to PUG now? Good luck getting any of them to bother once this carcinogenic tool materialises.

This is such a huge over reaction.

You’re right, if there a 2 DDs then the anonymous feature won’t stop people from knowing who did what. This is historic rather than real time though so getting a PUG group isn’t going to be impacted unless the person recording, stops and uploads and analyses. That isn’t going to happen!

Also I can already see what DPS the other DD is doing with Combat Metrics. No consent but I know if I’m slacking or carrying so what’s the issue?

theres already people asking for “LFM 2DD 40k DPS” combat metrics helps drive that because it gives a real time performance tracking.

Also someone having your data “to do ANYTHING THEY WANT” is ridiculous, what can they really do with it?

This has very little benefit in dungeon content since it’s fairly easy so using a tool like this is overkill. For trials it’s extremely useful for the top tier and the progression teams. Sharing DPS is already common practise, reviewing deaths happens and buff uptime as well. All this does is give more and clearer data to review after the trial has finished. I’m really struggling to see the issue if you can keep your data anonymous.

linlilia · April 2019

Useful

I said Useful, but I think that there is a strong likely hood that it will be quickly abused. I admit as a dpsing healer, I would like to see mob dps and boss fight stats. But I see many that will use this to force people to go to the meta. I honestly hate people that only play metas and I have been in many trial groups that get super fussy when you dont play the meta and now they can see that. I agree that cant do anything during the battle, but they can start banning you later.

This is a very slipper slope that they are going down. ESO will need to see how the data is collected carefully. And on PC, if they think there wont be addons that mine the data live, you are insane to think it wont happen within a few weeks of launch................

So I think it is useful, but I worry in where it will go and how it will be used................

Parrot1986 · April 2019

Useful

linlilia wrote: »

I said Useful, but I think that there is a strong likely hood that it will be quickly abused. I admit as a dpsing healer, I would like to see mob dps and boss fight stats. But I see many that will use this to force people to go to the meta. I honestly hate people that only play metas and I have been in many trial groups that get super fussy when you dont play the meta and now they can see that. I agree that cant do anything during the battle, but they can start banning you later.

This is a very slipper slope that they are going down. ESO will need to see how the data is collected carefully. And on PC, if they think there wont be addons that mine the data live, you are insane to think it wont happen within a few weeks of launch................

So I think it is useful, but I worry in where it will go and how it will be used................

There are already addons which show share DPS numbers as long as people have the addon and opt in. I use it and in PUGs might have come across 1 other person who uses it.

There’s hardly any issue with it just now so really can’t see this all of a sudden shifting people’s behaviours.

Tyrobag · April 2019

Invasive

Parrot1986 wrote: »

linlilia wrote: »

I said Useful, but I think that there is a strong likely hood that it will be quickly abused. I admit as a dpsing healer, I would like to see mob dps and boss fight stats. But I see many that will use this to force people to go to the meta. I honestly hate people that only play metas and I have been in many trial groups that get super fussy when you dont play the meta and now they can see that. I agree that cant do anything during the battle, but they can start banning you later.

This is a very slipper slope that they are going down. ESO will need to see how the data is collected carefully. And on PC, if they think there wont be addons that mine the data live, you are insane to think it wont happen within a few weeks of launch................

So I think it is useful, but I worry in where it will go and how it will be used................

There are already addons which show share DPS numbers as long as people have the addon and opt in. I use it and in PUGs might have come across 1 other person who uses it.

There’s hardly any issue with it just now so really can’t see this all of a sudden shifting people’s behaviours.

Hallothiel · April 2019

Invasive

Also, whilst Zos does have ownership over the data in their game, this is being run by a 3rd party website, who don’t.

And as this is being set to a default of ‘all players are opted in’, apparently to opt out, you have to contact the 3rd party website and give them MORE personal data such as email addresses and proof that the character is yours.

Yep - that’s right. To stop my data being shared, I am being forced to share even more of my data. Nice.

The default should always be that someone has to ‘opt in’ not ‘opt out’. Very bad data protection management.

Parrot1986 · April 2019

Useful

Tyrobag wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

linlilia wrote: »

I said Useful, but I think that there is a strong likely hood that it will be quickly abused. I admit as a dpsing healer, I would like to see mob dps and boss fight stats. But I see many that will use this to force people to go to the meta. I honestly hate people that only play metas and I have been in many trial groups that get super fussy when you dont play the meta and now they can see that. I agree that cant do anything during the battle, but they can start banning you later.

This is a very slipper slope that they are going down. ESO will need to see how the data is collected carefully. And on PC, if they think there wont be addons that mine the data live, you are insane to think it wont happen within a few weeks of launch................

So I think it is useful, but I worry in where it will go and how it will be used................

There are already addons which show share DPS numbers as long as people have the addon and opt in. I use it and in PUGs might have come across 1 other person who uses it.

There’s hardly any issue with it just now so really can’t see this all of a sudden shifting people’s behaviours.

Great input!

The 2 solutions are noticeably different. Reflexes allows for real time tracking which i agree can allow for much more mis use, especially when playing with players your less familiar with.

Logs will only work after the event has happened and it has been uploaded. For PUGs this makes it a lot more difficult for abuse. Yes it could mean trial teams etc use this more but lots already ask for combat metrics shares after every boss fight as well as parses to even get into teams. Again that addon allows you to get a clear indication to where your performance stacks against others. Even if you don’t use it yourself!

Maybe I’m lucky and play with nicer people and people I trust and would happily share DPS when we are pushing for trial completions etc.

Wolfkeks · April 2019

Invasive

I don't think anyone has a problem with the system itself but how it will be implemented.
That's why many people ask for the opt out option (ergo so it doesn't track our data if we don't want to).

I like the idea of seeing what went wrong in trials or so and see for myself how I can get better but I also don't want other people to look over all my stats at the same moment.

We have to respect that some people want this feature as well as we have to respect that some people don't want to use it.

So maybe we can get this feature so everyone has a chance to use it but maybe change (opt out option, ready check for combat log, message that combat log started etc) it a bit so everyone can use it the way they want.

Alexsae · April 2019

Invasive

Well, most games I've played have had a logging feature. It's useful for raids, groups, getting better. Does it lead to elitism? Yeah, kinda, and I find myself being a bit of a [edited to remove profanity] when I get caught up in the whole thing. Still, I wouldn't mind something more than combat metrics for analyzing fights.

Here's the big But. Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is [edited to remove profanity] atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.

todokete · April 2019

Invasive

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

Cpt_Teemo · April 2019

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

Gl doing a dungeon by yourself in the next year, lol

ThanatosXR · April 2019

its a mmorpg why would I expect anything to be anonymous? besides the fbi/nsa/mossad have rigged most internet routering points

M_Volsung · April 2019

Other: Yes.

Parrot1986 · April 2019

Useful

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

Almost every dungeon except some of the dlcs can be cleared with a tank and 1 DD comfortably. So even thinking of looking at this for that is laughable.

DyingIsEasy · April 2019

Useful

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

I have a better one:
I enter a group. I look at their chars and if i don't like how they look i kick.

DyingIsEasy · April 2019

Useful

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

I have a better one:
I enter a group. I look at their chars and if i don't like how they look i kick.

Also, i play on low graphics settings so needless to say i dislike a lot of chars.

muh · April 2019

Useful

Alexsae wrote: »

Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is f*okin' atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.

You didn't play World of Warcraft, WildStar or Final Fantasy 14, did you? Because if you did, I have bad news for you. Called warcraftlogs.com, wildstarlogs.com and fflogs.com.

I also wonder how you know that no one ever did post a log of you of another game in any form on a public website.

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

secondly very interesting the date stated on the site
ESO Logs Privacy Policy
Last Updated on May 25, 2018.

This Privacy Policy is effective immediately for users that sign up for accounts on or after May 25, 2018 and will become effective on May 25, 2018 for users that already have accounts.

makes you wonder................

Yes, really does make you wonder why Kihra would have a privacy policy dated back a year when they run three (two) other logging sites just like esologs. It also makes you wonder why in the six years that warcraftlogs.com is online no one made a Hall of Shame or used it to kick people from random <insert difficulty mode> dungeons that at least in ESO and WoW do not have very high dps requirements at all.

It also makes you wonder why ESO is the only game that offers an anonymity switch (which as far as I know, we don't have confirmation if it is opt-in or opt-out yet).

You all act like they're stealing your credit card numbers or anything. Most people that would visit any public logging website would be much more interested to look at good players, so the people ranked in the top 100 if we're generous.

Before all of this backlash I would have said that no one in their right mind would even care to look at the extremely low ranked people, but since you all make it seem like the "toxic elitists" will now come down on you and create an ESO Hall of Shame it may very well happen.

FrancisCrawford · April 2019

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You "opt in" by joining the group. That is your consent. Don't like other people seeing your stats? Join with friends only. If you're that worried about other people seeing exactly what you're doing don't worry. A group will already have a very good idea of your skills. This only adds a number to it.

So not saying no means yes? Hmm.. where have I heard that before?

You have every opportunity to not group up or group with people you know. You sign up for a dungeon in group finder, they have every right to see everything you do.

No they do not.

I live in an apartment building, can my neighbors walk in for a look without asking? No. Its none of their business if my refrigerator is better or worse than theirs, its none of their business how clean my sink is. I decided to live in this building, that does not give my fellow tenants the right to look through my personal things.

I want to do dungeons and trials, that in no way shape or form gives someone the right to invade my privacy without consent.

A better analogy would be if you were bringing food to a pot luck party, and they wanted to know what the ingredients were, whether it was prepared in a reasonably healthy kitchen, etc. The discussion in this thread is about whether they only have the right to know in general, or whether they are entitled to conduct a site inspection of your kitchen and see videos of how you cook.

D0PAMINE · April 2019

DyingIsEasy wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

I have a better one:
I enter a group. I look at their chars and if i don't like how they look i kick.

I enter a group, if I don't like how I look, I delete my character.

Facefister · April 2019

Useful

I don't need a log for an ol' kickaroo when I see that I am doing nearly 90% of the dps.

VioletVience · April 2019

Useful

Alexsae wrote: »

Here's the big But. Never, EVER have I seen this info up for public view on a website with no way at all to opt out. That is [edited to remove profanity] atrocious. IF this goes live, I will rethink my time spent in this game. I will not allow my private logs up for view on a public site. Period. 'Nuff said.

You have less than 10k dps?

jainiadral · April 2019

Invasive

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!

See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.

I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.

I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.

I hope ZOS reconsiders this.

Androconium · April 2019

[quote="Reistr_the_Unbroken;c-5967129"<<snip>>Secondly: some people actually BOUGHT the physical disc of ESO. Shocker. So is it not their property then?[/quote]

The disk is.

The right to use it is covered in the Terms and Conditions that you read and agreed to during the installation.
You read them before agreeing, no doubt.

I think Bethesda's current strategy is to tick long-term players off so that they'll leave and free up resources.
Then they can continue to sell base game to new players.

Strategy is working well from my perspective.

Jeremy · April 2019

Parrot1986 wrote: »

todokete wrote: »

I enter a group. I look up their names in esologs. I kick.

Almost every dungeon except some of the dlcs can be cleared with a tank and 1 DD comfortably. So even thinking of looking at this for that is laughable.

It is laughable. But they are going to use it as an excuse to do just that regardless. You can take that prediction to the bank.

muh · April 2019

Useful

jainiadral wrote: »

See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.

Could you please elaborate in more detail how "Charactername does ability X for Y damage to Z" is "*very* personal gaming data" and in what way it would breach your privacy if it is visible to everyone in the world?

Do you introduce all your ESO characters with curriculum to your co workers that you're now afraid that they all can spy on you via esologs.com? Do you honestly believe people will bother to look you up on a website if they can just wait a trash pull and look at total group dps and their share to know wether or not you're pulling your weight?

Runefang · April 2019

Useful

Now I will finally get the respect I deserve!

Runefang · April 2019

Useful

Shawn_PT wrote: »

I don't like being told 'you're not good enough'. I don't like people looking at my DPS/build/achievements and saying 'with your CP/gear/class/race you MUST pull at least xK DPS. If you can't, git gud and come back later, noob.'

I have met one person in my over 3 years of ESO. ONE. That took a bit of time to show me how to improve and helped me go from not feeling good enough for vet to being confident enough in my DPS to jump into the hardest stuff the game can throw at me and not be afraid of falling short. I can't pull 50K DPS but I can pull more than enough to get things done. And that's what is important.

One.

This won't make more people help those who are underperforming. This will only help singling them out and punting them from the groups.

Yeah, I have little faith in the community

You've just been going to the wrong places then. Every progression trial guild I've been a part of has been nothing but helpful to its members who are trying to improve dps. Every single one.

Don't walk into a vBRF or vAA and expect somebody to train you on the spot, that's not the place to do it. You train on a dummy and either video yourself (console) or post a CMX parse (PC) into your guild's discord asking for a review. You'll find the feedback is only positive and helpful.

Runefang · April 2019

Useful

jainiadral wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!

See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.

I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.

I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.

I hope ZOS reconsiders this.

You run exclusively solo and you'e worried about it? *face palm*

If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

Runefang wrote: »

If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??

The picture is a little bit bigger here.