ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

ManwithBeard9

Useful

For all the people bringing up EU laws, how is it that something similar or the same is still available in WoW, FF14, and Destiny 2, if not other games?

muh

Useful

FierceSam wrote: »

For those who don't think this will be abused, check this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468572/should-people-who-have-been-kick-voted-be-prevented-from-being-put-back-in-your-group-through-finder#latest

My data, my choice. You shouldn't have it.

Yes, we should all stab our eyes out, because people clearly spotted someone who isn't helping the group without using logs. Well done.

You should go over there and fight the good fight to remove the kick functionality. Because right now it allows people to drag them out of their house (instance) and shove them into a car (not-instance).

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Invasive

muh wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

For those who don't think this will be abused, check this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468572/should-people-who-have-been-kick-voted-be-prevented-from-being-put-back-in-your-group-through-finder#latest

My data, my choice. You shouldn't have it.

Yes, we should all stab our eyes out, because people clearly spotted someone who isn't helping the group without using logs. Well done.

You should go over there and fight the good fight to remove the kick functionality. Because right now it allows people to drag them out of their house (instance) and shove them into a car (not-instance).

Dude seriously? Do. Not. associate a log to kidnapping someone.

VaranisArano

FierceSam wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, muh, you don't seem to get the privacy concerns, so the rest of your blather is useless. And your "fairly certain" is certainly NOT something to give people confidence.

Unfortunately you don't help to enlighten me either, all I get from you is deflection. Instead of answering or explaining how this is intruding anyones privacy you go over to... I don't even know what you tried to accomplish here. It seems like you didn't even bother to read anything but the last section, though.

All I get from you is that you just don't understand how it works at all. This isn't automatically uploaded by Zenimax, this isn't uploaded real time. This isn't automatically uploaded at all. This does not include anything but abilities you used or you've been hit with and your character name if you don't set it to annonymous.

The way you talk about it doesn't seem like you're afraid that someone can bash your dps with it, but you're in fear for your life. Like why?

I'm also not affiliated with them, except that I am one of their Patreon supporter. And apparently getting personally attacked by you. You're building a great case for yourself.

Hey Muh,

If you don’t think that someone secretly recording my playing performance and then posting it (again without my knowledge or consent) to a third party website to which I have no access ISN’T a gross violation of my privacy and morally repugnant, I humbly suggest you are in denial.

Being able to record MY metrics for MY use with MY consent is a great idea.

Having a dps gestapo looking over your shoulder isn’t.

How is someone else recording your performance, though?

If you don't enable logging, your performance isn't being recorded. If you don't upload the logs to esologs.com, your performance isn't being posted anywhere without your consent.

Again, and again, and again, most of the "concerns" being filed here seem to stem from a gross misunderstanding of what the Encounter Log tool does.

It also doesn't help that so many of the "invasive" crowd have resorted to hilariously ridiculous hyperbole, e.g., "gross violation of my privacy" and "morally repugnant" LOL!

The whole point of this tool is it records the performance of the entire group.

They are logging MY performance because the file they get includes MY performance. It doesn't matter whether I have enabled logging or not. It doesn't matter whether they ask me or not.

They are able to do this secretly (without informing me) AND without my consent. They then put this data on an external website, not run by ZOS, who are able to do whatever they like with this data.

If you don't think that's invasive, a violation of your privacy and a bit dodgy, again, I suggest you rethink your priorities.

Assuming that Anonymous becomes the default, actually, I don't think that's more invasive than running in a group where players have CMX running. With CMX, players can still figure out your data via extrapolation and have even more access to your in-game identity, since CMX happens all in real time.

muh

Useful

FierceSam wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, muh, you don't seem to get the privacy concerns, so the rest of your blather is useless. And your "fairly certain" is certainly NOT something to give people confidence.

Unfortunately you don't help to enlighten me either, all I get from you is deflection. Instead of answering or explaining how this is intruding anyones privacy you go over to... I don't even know what you tried to accomplish here. It seems like you didn't even bother to read anything but the last section, though.

All I get from you is that you just don't understand how it works at all. This isn't automatically uploaded by Zenimax, this isn't uploaded real time. This isn't automatically uploaded at all. This does not include anything but abilities you used or you've been hit with and your character name if you don't set it to annonymous.

The way you talk about it doesn't seem like you're afraid that someone can bash your dps with it, but you're in fear for your life. Like why?

I'm also not affiliated with them, except that I am one of their Patreon supporter. And apparently getting personally attacked by you. You're building a great case for yourself.

Hey Muh,

If you don’t think that someone secretly recording my playing performance and then posting it (again without my knowledge or consent) to a third party website to which I have no access ISN’T a gross violation of my privacy and morally repugnant, I humbly suggest you are in denial.

Being able to record MY metrics for MY use with MY consent is a great idea.

Having a dps gestapo looking over your shoulder isn’t.

How is someone else recording your performance, though?

If you don't enable logging, your performance isn't being recorded. If you don't upload the logs to esologs.com, your performance isn't being posted anywhere without your consent.

Again, and again, and again, most of the "concerns" being filed here seem to stem from a gross misunderstanding of what the Encounter Log tool does.

It also doesn't help that so many of the "invasive" crowd have resorted to hilariously ridiculous hyperbole, e.g., "gross violation of my privacy" and "morally repugnant" LOL!

The whole point of this tool is it records the performance of the entire group.

They are logging MY performance because the file they get includes MY performance. It doesn't matter whether I have enabled logging or not. It doesn't matter whether they ask me or not.

They are able to do this secretly (without informing me) AND without my consent. They then put this data on an external website, not run by ZOS, who are able to do whatever they like with this data.

If you don't think that's invasive, a violation of your privacy and a bit dodgy, again, I suggest you rethink your priorities.

I hate to be the person that breaks the news to you, but you've clearly given ZOS your consent that they are allowed to share your "performance" over their servers... You know... Like, how do you imagine you see other people on your screen when you're playing? How do you imagine you can see someone perform an attack or dodge roll?

Am I invading your privacy now because you're writing something on a public forum and I had the audacity to obersve (aka read) it? I even processed it in my brain and this led me to have an opinion about you... I even have a quote of what you wrote right now. Was I required to get your consent before I made that?
Maybe I or someone else even shared your post somewhere else, who knows? Was ZOS required to detect them copy-pasting your exact post and ask for your consent?

Do you see where your argument falls apart?

Hallothiel

Invasive

@muh

By playing the game, I am consenting to Zos having my data. I choose to play the game.

By posting in the forums, I am consenting for them to have my data. I choose to post on the forums.

Esologs having my data? I have not chosen that nor have I consented. And there is no way for me to opt out if I so choose.

That is the difference.


And as for other games & their combat logs? - as they appear to have been implemented before GDPR / increased awareness of data protection, it might just be that they are in violation of those laws, or they haven’t been challenged / updated their policy yet. Many many places haven’t.

FierceSam

Invasive

muh wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, muh, you don't seem to get the privacy concerns, so the rest of your blather is useless. And your "fairly certain" is certainly NOT something to give people confidence.

Unfortunately you don't help to enlighten me either, all I get from you is deflection. Instead of answering or explaining how this is intruding anyones privacy you go over to... I don't even know what you tried to accomplish here. It seems like you didn't even bother to read anything but the last section, though.

All I get from you is that you just don't understand how it works at all. This isn't automatically uploaded by Zenimax, this isn't uploaded real time. This isn't automatically uploaded at all. This does not include anything but abilities you used or you've been hit with and your character name if you don't set it to annonymous.

The way you talk about it doesn't seem like you're afraid that someone can bash your dps with it, but you're in fear for your life. Like why?

I'm also not affiliated with them, except that I am one of their Patreon supporter. And apparently getting personally attacked by you. You're building a great case for yourself.

Hey Muh,

If you don’t think that someone secretly recording my playing performance and then posting it (again without my knowledge or consent) to a third party website to which I have no access ISN’T a gross violation of my privacy and morally repugnant, I humbly suggest you are in denial.

Being able to record MY metrics for MY use with MY consent is a great idea.

Having a dps gestapo looking over your shoulder isn’t.

How is someone else recording your performance, though?

If you don't enable logging, your performance isn't being recorded. If you don't upload the logs to esologs.com, your performance isn't being posted anywhere without your consent.

Again, and again, and again, most of the "concerns" being filed here seem to stem from a gross misunderstanding of what the Encounter Log tool does.

It also doesn't help that so many of the "invasive" crowd have resorted to hilariously ridiculous hyperbole, e.g., "gross violation of my privacy" and "morally repugnant" LOL!

The whole point of this tool is it records the performance of the entire group.

They are logging MY performance because the file they get includes MY performance. It doesn't matter whether I have enabled logging or not. It doesn't matter whether they ask me or not.

They are able to do this secretly (without informing me) AND without my consent. They then put this data on an external website, not run by ZOS, who are able to do whatever they like with this data.

If you don't think that's invasive, a violation of your privacy and a bit dodgy, again, I suggest you rethink your priorities.

I hate to be the person that breaks the news to you, but you've clearly given ZOS your consent that they are allowed to share your "performance" over their servers... You know... Like, how do you imagine you see other people on your screen when you're playing? How do you imagine you can see someone perform an attack or dodge roll?

Am I invading your privacy now because you're writing something on a public forum and I had the audacity to obersve (aka read) it? I even processed it in my brain and this led me to have an opinion about you... I even have a quote of what you wrote right now. Was I required to get your consent before I made that?
Maybe I or someone else even shared your post somewhere else, who knows? Was ZOS required to detect them copy-pasting your exact post and ask for your consent?

Do you see where your argument falls apart?

Hey dude,

I don’t actually.

To reiterate. I love the idea of well presented combat data for me about my characters. On occasion I mIght even be happy to share it, but it should be 100% my choice. Just as it’s my choice to post this on a public forum, where the whole idea is that other people see it.

I don’t love the idea that another player can record and keep and share data about my performance without my permission.

I find that opens up too many opportunities for negative behaviour and that bothers me.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've recently had to remove several comments that were off topic or nonconstructive. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to remain constructive and civil. We understand not everyone will always agree on certain topics. However, posts need to remain free of baiting comments or personal insults. Thank you for your understanding.

kylewwefan

Invasive

We probably won’t ever get this on console; but in black and white terms, the whole concept is invasive. No getting around that.

That being said, if your in to higher end raiding, there’s no getting around that anyways. To be part of that team, you pretty much have to subject yourself to it. Even on console. It’s kind of elitism bare minimum.

For many starters 25k DPS is the start point. Plenty of players have a hard enough time getting there.

You can’t take a whole group of 7k DPS players through VET Anything with any real expectation of completing it in any kind of timely fashion.



Useful well, that remains to be seen what kind of information they provide. I am curious as to what kind of up times groups actually have on buffs/de-buffs.


How will this information be used

IMHO there’s no question less than honorable actions will spawn out of this information. However, I also predict some useful information might come from it as well.

Is it necessary

We’ve gone this long without it. On console, we went a long time with no text chat too. At the time, I didn't think it would make so much difference, or that I would even use it. Boy was I wrong about that.

muh

Useful

Hallothiel wrote: »

By playing the game, I am consenting to Zos having my data. I choose to play the game.

By posting in the forums, I am consenting for them to have my data. I choose to post on the forums.

Esologs having my data? I have not chosen that nor have I consented. And there is no way for me to opt out if I so choose.

That is the difference.

FierceSam wrote: »

I don’t love the idea that another player can record and keep and share data about my performance without my permission.

Did you even understand what I wrote?

I can take video footage of ESO. Some player, even you, could be visible in that footage. I then upload this footage to a video platform or maybe even live stream it. By your logic ZOS would have to stop me even starting to record said footage, because you didn't give consent/permission?

You did consent to the privacy policy in which ZOS informed you that they're collecting "..., game-play statistics, scores, persona, characters, ..., click paths, ...". ZOS then gives you the option to get a local copy of a subset of the data they collect. Now at which point is ZOS sharing your personal data so far?

Up to this very moment we don't know if it is "opt-in to be anonymous" or "opt-in to share character names". So until we see it on PTS later today, there is no point to argue whether they share other peoples character name with or without consent.

Hallothiel wrote: »

And as for other games & their combat logs? - as they appear to have been implemented before GDPR / increased awareness of data protection, it might just be that they are in violation of those laws, or they haven’t been challenged / updated their policy yet. Many many places haven’t.

You know that ESO is the only game so far that will have an option to be anonymous in logs?
And once again before you cry that it's opt-in by default. Up to this very moment we don't know if it is "opt-in to be anonymous" or "opt-in to share character names".
But hey, if it is "opt-in to share" later you can claim it as a victory for you. Because ... no one knew what it was before.
And if it isn't "opt-in to share" you can be sure that I'll give them feedback to change it as well.

I would really love to know from you, @FierceSam and @Hallothiel, where I'd share your private data if I upload a log with something along the lines of:

"Muh deals damge with ability"
"Anonymous#1 takes damage from ability"
"Anonymous#1 deals damage with ability"
"Anonymous#2 heals with ability"
"Muh takes healing from ability"
"Anonymous#3 deals damage with ability"
"Anonymous#5 takes damage from ability"
"Anonymous#8 takes healing from ability"

Can you please tell me from just looking at this example who of you is Anonymous#1, Anonymous#2, Anonymous#3, Anonymous#5 and Anonymous#8?
The ignorance you show about the meaning of anonymous is just insane. For some weird reason you think that just because I've been with you in a group I will meticiously analyze each Anonymous so I, because I was there mind you, will be able to connect who could be each of the anonymous people?
The anonymous feature is less for me, or persons that are participating with you, and more for the general public that could stumble upon a log.

If I would visit an anonymous meeting of e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous (pretty much the only anonymous real life meeting that came to my mind), I would still recognize other people that have been there. If I saw them in public I could say that they have been to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, but everyone else who wasn't there has no clue they've been to a meeting with me. Right?
They would have to believe me that I actually met that person at a meeting. They would have to believe me that what I say about that person is actually about that person.

Edit: Did rewrite a bit in the first part of my post.

muh

Useful

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

muh wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

For those who don't think this will be abused, check this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468572/should-people-who-have-been-kick-voted-be-prevented-from-being-put-back-in-your-group-through-finder#latest

My data, my choice. You shouldn't have it.

Yes, we should all stab our eyes out, because people clearly spotted someone who isn't helping the group without using logs. Well done.

You should go over there and fight the good fight to remove the kick functionality. Because right now it allows people to drag them out of their house (instance) and shove them into a car (not-instance).

Dude seriously? Do. Not. associate a log to kidnapping someone.

Dude, yes. Isn't it crazy what some people use as analogy when they appear in a combat log without giving explicit consent that their action are processed by eso in some way even if they did consent to it? Even if they're anonymous?

I just used this analogy because someone on page 15 used it before me.

[removed quote]

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, as the conversation is no longer constructive. We have decided to close this thread.