ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

witchdoctor

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Flares wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Even FFXIV logs has a way to hide your personal data.

FFLOGs was made by the same creator, the way to hide your personal data is the exact same, you have to opt out

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.

It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If I want to remove my name later, because someone uploaded one of my logs to Public and now I'm ranked on a leaderboard, I have to create an account, claim my characters, and send an email saying i don't ever want to be ranked.

Is that correct?

Not quite. It's either/or not both. You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.
It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

[You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

In my view it's inbetween. It's not "a million hoops", but it's still hoops.
Registering/confirming email/browsing through settings is indeed a hoop
And, or, better said, OR, finding admin email (often hidden in some smallprint somewhere) , writing, sending, checking it's been done, etc... is also a hoop.

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

DyingIsEasy

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

100%
Even players in support of this tool have been saying that since page 1.

Hallothiel

Invasive

@witchdoctor

And that’s the point. To opt out, you have to send personal data - your email address & info about your eso account (far more personal than your character name) - to a Third Party website!

In the EU under GDPR, Consent should never be assumed. It should be that if people want this, they have to opt-in to it. It should not be done by default.

By making this opt-in by default they are breaching the GDPR - which is not just about data protection but also about data minimisation.

There might also be issues about needing a clear and explicit Information Sharing Agreement published, and the esologs website would need a Privacy Notice about why they are collecting our data, where it is stored, how long it will be kept for etc.

And while you may say ZOS has lawyers that know all about this, you’d be surprised that they might not as companies in Europe are still wrestling with the implications.

The solution is that it should be opt-in by consent - but that does leave open that players might be forced by guilds to do this if they want to do trials - and no-one should feel forced to share their data.

witchdoctor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.
It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

[You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

In my view it's inbetween. It's not "a million hoops", but it's still hoops.
Registering/confirming email/browsing through settings is indeed a hoop
And, or, better said, OR, finding admin email (often hidden in some smallprint somewhere) , writing, sending, checking it's been done, etc... is also a hoop.

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

I just checked, so that we can be clear.

Go to website (esologs.com, it is already up).

Scroll to bottom.

Click 'contact.'

Your email program will launch, ready for you to email the website owner.

I'm only being pedantic because there are some real over-exaggerations and fear-mongering here.

xMovingTarget

Useful

Talking about a combat log and personal data makes me cringe very hard.
What is wrong with human kind. Mankind is turning into full on snowflake mode.

If you consider a button press personal data, I dont know what to say. Mmos in the past had these functions natively, nobody complained. Just because you are too lazy to learn a proper rotation, proper gearing you whine about this.

If you have a Yolo hoolahhub build with a spam light attack rotation, maybe stay away from from hard content. Or any content that involves other players.
Since you will let everyone down because your ego is so big. And when you get called out for it, you scream as if someone tried to chop your legs off in real life. Because your feelings got hurt.

If you want to do endgame content, gear for it, practice rotation. So you are no dead weight for 11 other people that exactly did that to reach their common goal.

You can do whatever you want if you are alone. And there, a full log won't matter.

This works the same way in literally every game. Always did and will be.

This has nothing to do with elitism or toxicity. Its about reaching a common goal.

Hallothiel

Invasive

It’s not fear-mongering!

It’s a perfectly bloody reasonable desire not to have any personal data shared without consent. Or being forced to share other bits of personal data to opt-out!

And before you say ‘but your data is being shared anyway whenever you use the internet do why whinge’ - I am very particular about what & with whom I share my data & try my best to always look at the privacy statement & adjust the settings accordingly.

witchdoctor

Hallothiel wrote: »

It’s not fear-mongering!

To be clear.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

I agree with this, and do not think that request is fear-mongering.

Cheezits94

Useful

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

satanio

Useful

Analysis is good.
This could be used to actually develop some "intelligent" AI

If you are afraid that someone will yell at you because you did "something wrong" according to ESO logs, then you should change your TRIAL group, guild or friends.
Or you can yell back at them to shove it.

Skysenzz

Useful

tbh blaming other being "elitist" when you never learned to weave sounds as stupid as coming to a test that you didn't study for then blame on the teacher because it's too hard lul.

muh

Useful

Arciris wrote: »

Combat Metric doesn't collect other people's personal data and exports them to a Third Party website, for one.

What about that data is personal, though?

What is personal data? (European Comission)
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual. Different pieces of information, which collected together can lead to the identification of a particular person, also constitute personal data.

Personal data that has been de-identified, encrypted or pseudonymised but can be used to re-identify a person remains personal data and falls within the scope of the law.

Personal data that has been rendered anonymous in such a way that the individual is not or no longer identifiable is no longer considered personal data. For data to be truly anonymised, the anonymisation must be irreversible."

So if anything you can only argue that your user id is pseudonymised personal data that only ZOS can use to re-identify you. But that isn't even logged, the log only collects your character names if anonymization* isn't active in game. I wonder how many hits you get that are not personally related to you in any way when you google your character names.

Are you so up in arms about people live streaming ESO gameplay or recording and uploading it to third party websites?
Your every move in ESO is sent to dozens of people multiple times per second already and they are free to do with it whatever they want without your consent. That's the nature of online games.

*We also don't know for certain if it's opt-in or opt-out. That character names are not personal data aside, I'm perfectly fine when sharing character names is opt-in and anonymous is default.

VaranisArano

witchdoctor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.
It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

[You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

In my view it's inbetween. It's not "a million hoops", but it's still hoops.
Registering/confirming email/browsing through settings is indeed a hoop
And, or, better said, OR, finding admin email (often hidden in some smallprint somewhere) , writing, sending, checking it's been done, etc... is also a hoop.

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

I just checked, so that we can be clear.

Go to website (esologs.com, it is already up).

Scroll to bottom.

Click 'contact.'

Your email program will launch, ready for you to email the website owner.

I'm only being pedantic because there are some real over-exaggerations and fear-mongering here.

That doesnt look so hard....


Until I consider it from the perspective of a new player, overwhelmed with info at the start of the game, figuring out what all the settings are - with character name sharing on by default. Or a returning player, hopping back in game - with character name sharing turned on by default. Sure it seems easy to be Anonymous -just check the box! However, over the whole PC population, some players are certain to miss that step since it is not the default.


I asked Kihra this in the Encounter Logging thread.
Everyone's consent to share their character name + Combat data is assumed by default. (Kihra also stated it didnt matter to ESO Logs what the default is. I take that to mean that if the community wants Anonymity to be the default, we need to make that clear.)

Kihra confirmed that if a player later discovers their character name on a leaderboard on ESO Logs, or having been posted somewhere in a log, and want it hidden, they have to:
Sign up for the webiste and claim their characters
OR
Email the site owners to get their characters made anonymous.

From that, I'd ask, Why not just make all players Anonymous by default? If players have to knowingly consent to have their character name attatched to combat data, it removes a lot of potential problems with data sharing. It also means that no one who didn't already knowingly consent to have their character name shared ever has to have anything to do with the 3rd party website for accounts/emails.

Hallothiel

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

efster

Useful

I'm all for a tool like this, but I'm super uncomfortable about the data being aggregated and hosted by a third party that has no official relationship with ZOS and that I will be forced to deal with if I want to play with groups that require the tool's use.

Cheezits94

Useful

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

Arciris

Invasive

muh wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Combat Metric doesn't collect other people's personal data and exports them to a Third Party website, for one.

What about that data is personal, though?

What is personal data? (European Comission)
"Personal data is any information that relates to an identified or identifiable living individual. Different pieces of information, which collected together can lead to the identification of a particular person, also constitute personal data.

Personal data that has been de-identified, encrypted or pseudonymised but can be used to re-identify a person remains personal data and falls within the scope of the law.

Personal data that has been rendered anonymous in such a way that the individual is not or no longer identifiable is no longer considered personal data. For data to be truly anonymised, the anonymisation must be irreversible."

So if anything you can only argue that your user id is pseudonymised personal data that only ZOS can use to re-identify you. But that isn't even logged, the log only collects your character names if anonymization* isn't active in game. I wonder how many hits you get that are not personally related to you in any way when you google your character names.

Are you so up in arms about people live streaming ESO gameplay or recording and uploading it to third party websites?
Your every move in ESO is sent to dozens of people multiple times per second already and they are free to do with it whatever they want without your consent. That's the nature of online games.

*We also don't know for certain if it's opt-in or opt-out. That character names are not personal data aside, I'm perfectly fine when sharing character names is opt-in and anonymous is default.

First, thank you for providing the information that confirms our concerns.

Do not fear, no one is saying that we cannot have this tool, only that the option to Opt Out to be the default (which you find reasonable by your post edit)

Why the concern about personal data?
Because to Opt Out/make characters anonymous, we have to send an e-mail to a Third Party website that we didn't previously and knowingly agreed to use.
It happens that, for professional reasons, my e-mail has my full personal name on it. It also happens that, for security reasons, my e-mail is linked to my personal mobile phone number.
So, I find myself to have to provide personal data (as per the part I bolded out) to a Third Party website, just to Opt Out.

Not to mention that your "pseudonymised" self can still be bullied, harassed or simply trolled, And even if it is just in the "virtual" world, the psychological consequences are very real for some people (not me, i've got real tough hide, but it's always unpleasant anyway)

If complete Opt Out is set by default, I would have no issue changing my vote to "useful" and would even welcome such a tool.
But not when it's forced down my and everybody else's throat, no thank you.

MrGraves

Invasive

VaranisArano wrote: »

That doesnt look so hard....


Until I consider it from the perspective of a new player, overwhelmed with info at the start of the game, figuring out what all the settings are - with character name sharing on by default. Or a returning player, hopping back in game - with character name sharing turned on by default. Sure it seems easy to be Anonymous -just check the box! However, over the whole PC population, some players are certain to miss that step since it is not the default.

Pretty sure alot of players who have been here won't even know about it and that people might be (in the future) logging their data. Alot of active players don't really go on the forums or look into everything ZoS posts. Alot of people even on this thread didn't even know what was being talked about. Since it is third party and not a part of the game people will unknowingly have their data up on the website for people to see.
I only knew about it cause I watched the stream and I was only there for the art.

Hallothiel

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

Your email address is personal data.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

I just checked, so that we can be clear.
Go to website (esologs.com, it is already up).
Scroll to bottom.
Click 'contact.'

Your email program will launch, ready for you to email the website owner.

These are quick and easy steps for someone like me, but even for me, forcing it on me just because I forgot to check a box in the menu or wasn't aware that I had to is an annoyance. Also, it wouldn't be quick and easy for someone like, say, my sister. Not everyone is a techie, not every MMO player is a geek familiar with all this. Non-techie people will also mostly have their real name showing clear in their email address. Also, you forgot the language issue.

Anyway, since we agree on the necessity to opt-in instead of out, we're on the same page.
But why on earth did ZOS make it opt-out ? How could a senior UI designer oversee something that obvious ? Maybe intentionally ? That's where the red lights start flashing, for me.

xMovingTarget

Useful

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.
It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

[You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

In my view it's inbetween. It's not "a million hoops", but it's still hoops.
Registering/confirming email/browsing through settings is indeed a hoop
And, or, better said, OR, finding admin email (often hidden in some smallprint somewhere) , writing, sending, checking it's been done, etc... is also a hoop.

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

I just checked, so that we can be clear.

Go to website (esologs.com, it is already up).

Scroll to bottom.

Click 'contact.'

Your email program will launch, ready for you to email the website owner.

I'm only being pedantic because there are some real over-exaggerations and fear-mongering here.

Yeah no. I refuse to give my personal information: my email btw to a third party website that I do not trust at all

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

r/Iamsmart

This might be mind blowing but: an email is personal data

anitajoneb17_ESO

Invasive

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Now we start knit picking, arnt we?

You really have it all, haven't you ?
The arrogance, the disrespect, the achievements, the "L2P" attitude, the judgemental vocabulary, the superiority, the assumptions, etc... everything.

menathradiel

Invasive

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

You sure about that?

(1) ‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

Your username is personal data, and this information is being given to the third party.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Invasive

menathradiel wrote: »

Your username is personal data, and this information is being given to the third party.

Are you sure ? I remember Kirah mentioning only character names... but if people are organized in guilds similar to the guilds ingame, they'll probably collect @playerID too.
Anyone can clarify ? Kirah maybe ?

VaranisArano

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

Your email address is personal data.

I guess the argument against this is that technically giving your email isn't necessary to be anonymous. Technically, all you have to do is check a box in game and you'll be anonymous, and never have anything to do with the 3rd-party website.

The problem, of course, is that anyone who doesn't know to check the Anonymous box has their consent assumed, and if they later wish to revoke that assumed consent, they have to sign up for the website OR send an email. I think that's an unwarranted assumption that's going to lead to people having to sign up or email the site to become anonymous because they didn't know they needed to check the box.


Obviously I'm on the side arguing for all players to be anonymous by default. That way no one has their consent assumed. That way, anyone who later wants to revoke that consent first knowingly gave their consent.

On a more humorous note, I've now typed "consent" enough that, just like with anonymity in the other Encounter Logging thread, Its stopped looking like an actual word and I had to looked it up to make sure I was spelling it correctly.

Edited to Add: From a comment by Kihra, email is not the only way to contact Kihra or ESO Logs to ask for character names to be hidden. It can be done through these forums, Kihra's fourms, discord or Twiiter, etc.

NupidStoob

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Why not have the same uproar with combat metrics since in 4 man content it clearer shows if someone’s DPS is clearer stronger or poorer? That’s real time as well so surely has a greater risk of miss-use? You also have no option to even opt out to any collecting of that data.

Oh come on, please read the thread... that's been answered a dozen times already...

You say yourself you don't want anyone to look over your shoulder. CMX is exactly that. This tool isn't real time. If you expect people to upload a log after every single encounter in a dungeon to ridicule you you are being silly. If someone wanted to be an ass then they don't need this tool. They don't even need CMX. They can just talk *** about how they see you play.

Let's imagine the scenario of someone uploading combat logs where you are involved but you opted out of. Nobody except for the group will know its you. Nobody can go on that website and search your name and find anything about you either. The website doesn't put the puzzle together for others to know which anonymous person you are.

More data is collected about you here in the forums than these combat logs ever will. Forums being way more dangerous from a data collection point of view than any of your dps parses, because your opinions could be used to discredit you and make you look bad in real life. Yet you keep posting over and over and it doesn't seem to bother you. Play any game with the least bit of a competitive aspect and more data will be collected about you even without your consent. Just look at a game like league of legends, there are 20+ sites that let me look at the complete stats and match history as well as analysis of someones account. When they played, who they played with, exactly how they performed etc etc. It's absolutely normal in games nowadays and nobody cares. Stop blowing things out of proportion and making an issue out of something that really isn't one.

witchdoctor

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Yeah
By jumping through a million hoops just to be anonymous.

That is absolutely not the case.
It is as simple as sending them an email.

Kihra wrote: »

[You can either sign up and claim your characters, or just send me an email without registering and I'll hide it.

Hyper-exaggeration is not needed.

In my view it's inbetween. It's not "a million hoops", but it's still hoops.
Registering/confirming email/browsing through settings is indeed a hoop
And, or, better said, OR, finding admin email (often hidden in some smallprint somewhere) , writing, sending, checking it's been done, etc... is also a hoop.

I think everyone agrees that defaulting to "anonymous" is the minimum ZOS really needs to do with this tool.

I just checked, so that we can be clear.

Go to website (esologs.com, it is already up).

Scroll to bottom.

Click 'contact.'

Your email program will launch, ready for you to email the website owner.

I'm only being pedantic because there are some real over-exaggerations and fear-mongering here.

Yeah no. I refuse to give my personal information: my email btw to a third party website that I do not trust at all

The amazing thing is, since you, as you frequently tell us, do not group, it will never be relevant to you!

If you do group up, click that anonymous tick box, and voila!, you never have to email anyone!

witchdoctor

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

Cheezits94 wrote: »

Wow. As someone who ACTUALLY works with the implementation of GDPR regulations and compliance for the company where I am hired, this whole discussion about "personal data" makes makes me cringe so hard.

You guys know nothing.
Your toon's elemental drain uptime is not considered personal data and won't be by any judge in the world.

But having to email a third party website to ask them to remove your data does mean you have to share personal information unnecessarily.

And if you are working with implementation of GDPR then you should know that Consent should never never be assumed - people have to chose to opt in, not opt out.

Law-wise, that doesn't even matter in this case, as there is nothing that is considered personal data being shared in the first place.

r/Iamsmart

This might be mind blowing but: an email is personal data

To explain slowly, if the data in question, i.e., your ele drain uptime, isn't covered by GDPR, then whether or not email is personal information is irrelevant.