ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

Cpt_Teemo · April 2019

Banana wrote: »

Im glad I play solo

Same here the toxic behavior from dps charts are so annoying

Wildberryjack · April 2019

Invasive

I can see it being abused more than useful.

Coming from WoW I know how the only thing that matters to many is your DPS number and most often the threshold is unreasonable and one the group leader can't even meet. Such meters are asked to be broken by Blizz by players constantly so I'm leery of that coming into this game.

It may not be shown in real time but if your numbers are "low" the group leaders will simply note your name and never invite you back. Your being anonymous won't matter if no one else is, they'll know who you were, it really won't be hard to sleuth it out at all.

andy_s · April 2019

Invasive

Yes.
And I like it

RANKK7 · April 2019

Invasive

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:

"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."

This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.

EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.

So much this.

Plus, it makes me wonder if this Studio is trying to lose a lot of the playerbase, because this looks like a very good move to achieve that. What a crap move.

Suddwrath · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I didn't say "casual". I said "average".
According to what you say, you went from "very bad" straight to "good", in a very short time, so you have no clue what the "average player" 's life is like ingame.

What do you think of my suggestion in order to reconcile ppl for and against the "logger" ? Because that's the topic and that's what matters.

Yes, the topic is the logger, but you were the one who made the statement about me not understanding what the "average player" experiences. I have experienced what would be considered "very bad", to "average", to "end-game", so I am familiar with what players experience on both ends of the spectrum as well as what falls between those. You cannot possibly assume my experiences as a player from a single post on the forums. So your original statement about me "literally having no idea" was anything but constructive or even accurate.

Getting back to the topic at hand: I stand by my opinion in that the logger is going to be beneficial for groups such as PvE guilds or individuals who simply love data and statistics (such as myself). The logger is not a bad thing. ZOS is already collecting those statistics and now they are simply giving the community access to certain parts of it. However, I believe in order to appease those who have concerns the best middle ground would be to add another UI feature similar to the ready check where someone can activate a "Request Log" and if everyone agrees to it then the log will be made and saved to the hard drive of the person who requested it. That way PvE guilds can still utilize the feature and benefit from it, and those who have concerns will have control over whether or not they will be recorded.

Ogou · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:

"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."

This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.

EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.

Which laws? As far as I know there is no such thing.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · April 2019

Useful

We really have no idea what the data will show until we can use it to assess for ourselves. I'm for waiting and seeing what the data actually shows.

As for me worrying about my DPS being sub standard to others it doesn't bother me at all. It's like the old Gunfighter story: There is always someone faster out there. So what?

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

Ogou wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:

"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."

This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.

EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.

Which laws? As far as I know there is no such thing.

GDPR.

Alienoutlaw · April 2019

Invasive

this is the site used by destiny players https://raid.report it is already being abused to

SaltySudd wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

As I'm writing this post, the "Invasive" option collects 56% of the votes, so my statement is not non sense, it is fact.

You cannot determine the factuality of your statement from a poll on the forums. The users who took this poll are not an accurate representation of the total playerbase. First, the users who come to the forums generally do not reflect the overall playerbase. Second, the users who came to the forums to express their concerns and frustrations specifically for the new logging feature do not take into consideration the players who actually like the new feature (but they do not feel compelled to come to the forums to express that).

tl;dr
Player-generated forum polls don't hold very much weight.

yet a single class rep can shape the whole game? dungeons and trials are made harder to challenge the 1%, but a poll on a forum populated by the ESO community that probably fit the 99% is not a valid snapshot of general feeling? i can tell you for a fact there are many more ppl talking about this in there guild discords ALL just as unhappy

Ogou · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:

"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."

This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.

EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.

Which laws? As far as I know there is no such thing.

GRDP.

As I said in a previous comment: the GDPR only applies to personally identifying information. Your in game data does not fall under that category.

Suddwrath · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GDPR.

I do not believe GDRP applies to this information. This is the definition of Personal Data straight from the GDPR:
For the purposes of this Regulation:
‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

Ogou wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

Also, here is an excerpt from the ToS that everyone playing the game agreed to:

"By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any Content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account."

This is not YOUR data. You agreed to this the moment you accepted the ToS to play the game.

EULA or ToS =/= Law.
EU has recent laws that would probably shred this to pieces, should it come to a legal fight.

Which laws? As far as I know there is no such thing.

GRDP.

As I said in a previous comment: the GDPR only applies to personally identifying information. Your in game data does not fall under that category.

It could.
This set of laws has an extremely wide definition of "personal data", that includes the use of pseudonyms and usage data of "Saas" (which ESO probably is in that regard).
Software companies aren't free to do whatever they want with their EULA and TOS anymore.

Suddwrath · April 2019

Useful

Ogou wrote: »

As I said in a previous comment: the GDPR only applies to personally identifying information. Your in game data does not fall under that category.

Exactly.

Suddwrath · April 2019

Useful

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

yet a single class rep can shape the whole game? dungeons and trials are made harder to challenge the 1%, but a poll on a forum populated by the ESO community that probably fit the 99% is not a valid snapshot of general feeling? i can tell you for a fact there are many more ppl talking about this in there guild discords ALL just as unhappy

But a single class rep cannot shape the whole game. The class reps simply relay "pain points" to the devs, but what the devs do with that is entirely up to them. There are countless recent examples of the devs not making the changes that the class reps pushed for, or even the devs making changes that the class reps didn't ask for.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

SaltySudd wrote: »

I do not believe GDRP applies to this information.

What you believe doesn't matter.
There are several trials going on right now, and they will last long because they involve big companies with mass personal data issues (Google, FaceBook, etc.) where this is being discussed. Once they're over, they'll create legal precedents and ZOS should be careful with that before giving our data to some obscure, probably not well secured third-party site.

Suddwrath · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

There are several trials going on right now, and they will last long because they involve big companies with mass personal data issues (Google, FaceBook, etc.) where this is being discussed. Once they're over, they'll create legal precedents and ZOS should be careful with that before giving our data to some obscure, probably not well secured third-party site.

There are significant differences between the information being collected by Facebook/Google and the amount of DPS someone did in Fungal Grotto. Those comparisons aren't even close.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

SaltySudd wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

There are several trials going on right now, and they will last long because they involve big companies with mass personal data issues (Google, FaceBook, etc.) where this is being discussed. Once they're over, they'll create legal precedents and ZOS should be careful with that before giving our data to some obscure, probably not well secured third-party site.

There are significant differences between the information being collected by Facebook/Google and the amount of DPS someone did in Fungal Grotto. Those comparisons aren't even close.

Just read the ToS of that website, where it's stated that our personal data WILL be collected (including ID, browsing data, etc.) and WILL BE SHARED/SOLD to third parties.
That's one thing.
Second thing is: if you think combat data isn't personal data, I think you're wrong. It makes for perfect gamer profiles which are worth a lot of money, especially since gamers are known for spending a lot of money over products that are marketed and sold via the internet (games, hardware, tech, etc.).
If you think that data cannot be related to your identity via your IP, you're wrong too.

But my original point was just to say that mentioning the ToS of ESO to demonstrate that combat data isn't personal data is simply invalid.

essi2 · April 2019

Invasive

While I doubt the GDPR would apply in this case if ONLY DPS data is collected.

My username DOES allow for identifying who I am IRL, and would be covered by the GDPR.

“[A]n identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person.”

The data collection in this case should default to opt-out/anonymized.

LukosCreyden · April 2019

It'll likely be used as a measuring stick, a bar to entry.

"Show us your datalog! If you don't have (these stats) you can't play with us!"

FFXIV players use a third party system. Technically not allowed, but the devs let it slide, which is fair enough. However, some folk are so toxic (and I hate using that word) that they will ceaselessly pester someone if their parses are not good enough. It is so bad at times that it has become something of a meme over there.

Fortunately, it seems ESO's system will be more personally "controllable", aka not automatically published online for all to see.

Gilvoth · April 2019

Invasive

instead of showing anonymous just put an

" on / off "

option in our settingfs that allows to turn "ON" or "OFF" your complete and total display of damage COMPLETELY.
nothing will show, not my name not "anonymous", nothing
just a blank space.

so when i go into that group, my numbers will not show AT ALL, and niether will my name and niether will the name "anonymous", unless i want it to show,
if i have it turned ON then everything shows.

Kikke · April 2019

Useful

Anyone against this toll enjoys getting carried, knows it, but dont want to to admit it. lol.

Cpt_Teemo · April 2019

Kikke wrote: »

Anyone against this toll enjoys getting carried, knows it, but dont want to to admit it. lol.

Anyone that is for it will be toxic, i'd rather be the one to leave a dungeon on my own because i'm not pulling the dps you should instead of those that trash talk you to make you leave

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

LukosCreyden wrote:

FFXIV players use a third party system.

Yes, the same system as this "ESO logging". Same site, same developer, as it looks.

Alienoutlaw · April 2019

Invasive

"an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors"

i would say my user name/gamer tag is an identifier, the logs must have a session id number allocated to my user name which could be found within the txt log generated (as shown last night in twitch feed) what other account info is contained with the txt file that may or may not enable me to be, an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly. not a risk i am willing to take with a 3rd party site, with zero obligation to honour ZOS TnC's

essi2 · April 2019

Invasive

@anitajoneb17_ESO You're attributing that quote to the wrong person.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · April 2019

Meh, there are add-ons that are worse (so very tired of people whispering me for my loot in groups). The way it was described, if someone isn't pulling their weight in vet content it will probably be obvious long before someone plugs in the numbers from this. And if it's not, then it wasn't hard enough content for it to matter.

I do wonder what measures Zeni is taking to prevent fraud, because (IIRC) if that's just a text document and we have to manually upload it, then there's opportunity to edit the numbers. So I will be taking other peoples' readouts with a grain of salt regardless.

That said, as its stated purpose was to help people improve, it will probably accomplish that.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

essi2 wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO You're attributing that quote to the wrong person.

Sorry, fixed :-)

Alienoutlaw · April 2019

Invasive

Kikke wrote: »

Anyone against this toll enjoys getting carried, knows it, but dont want to to admit it. lol.

thats just the stupidest unhelpful comment ive read today

Kihra · April 2019

Useful

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Just read the ToS of that website, where it's stated that our personal data WILL be collected (including ID, browsing data, etc.) and WILL BE SHARED/SOLD to third parties.

Note, you're misreading my site's Privacy Policy. It's just standard boilerplate language for showing ads on a Web site (e.g., Google AdSense). The only personal data the site collects is your email address for signup (and your ZOS account name if you choose to claim characters on the site). These are not shared with anyone. The email address is only used for account identification and to send signup and password reset emails, just like any other Web site with accounts.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2019

Invasive

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I do wonder what measures Zeni is taking to prevent fraud, because (IIRC) if that's just a text document and we have to manually upload it, then there's opportunity to edit the numbers. So I will be taking other peoples' readouts with a grain of salt regardless.

Well, if you look at yesterday's stream (they showed that file and its content), it's for the techies, if not for advanced techies. It's a text file, but the succession of characters and the amount of data in it requires some expertise to be deciphered with a naked eye.
However, there are plenty of highly skilled techies playing ESO, so it probably won't last long until the whole thing is reversed engineered and reports are forged. This is a very valid concern in my opinion.