ESO Logs: Invasive or Useful?

witchdoctor

In my opinion, based on what we know:

It appears to be useful for its intended audience: progression-minded groups. Whilst my guild's Discord has amazingly been silent on the development, I suspect that our 2 progression groups (and certainly the more serious of the 2) will ask all of us to enable logging. And I will, because if I can improve somewhere to get us mo' bettah in vMOL, I will.

If one is not in a steady group, then setting yourself to anonymous would be a wise course of action.

Since the logs are not real-time, if one is anonymous, I suspect the chances of actual trolling are remote.

If that is not the case, and trolling becomes too common, I am willing to bet that ZOS will make further iterations on the logging.

witchdoctor

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

ZirconJunkie wrote: »

If ESO Logs streams the combat data in real time to this third party website ...

To reiterate, and repeat, since this seems to be ignored by several ...

It is not real-time.

If someone in your PUG trial/dungeon is logging, they will not have some real-time view of what you are, are not, could be, have, have not, etc., etc., done.

Doesn't stop anyone from making reddit threads about so and so having the worst dps don't invite them later on

As I later posed, I am willing to believe if trolling became common-place, ZOS would make further iterations on the functionality.

Also: this can already be done, so, IMO, a functionality for Group X (in this case, prog raiders), should not be barred because of as-of-yet-even-happened, i.e., hypothetical, trolling to Group Y.

coop500

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

In my opinion, based on what we know:

It appears to be useful for its intended audience: progression-minded groups. Whilst my guild's Discord has amazingly been silent on the development, I suspect that our 2 progression groups (and certainly the more serious of the 2) will ask all of us to enable logging. And I will, because if I can improve somewhere to get us mo' bettah in vMOL, I will.

If one is not in a steady group, then setting yourself to anonymous would be a wise course of action.

Since the logs are not real-time, if one is anonymous, I suspect the chances of actual trolling are remote.

If that is not the case, and trolling becomes too common, I am willing to bet that ZOS will make further iterations on the logging.

Honestly if they allowed people to opt out 100% then I don't think anybody would care.

witchdoctor

coop500 wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

In my opinion, based on what we know:

It appears to be useful for its intended audience: progression-minded groups. Whilst my guild's Discord has amazingly been silent on the development, I suspect that our 2 progression groups (and certainly the more serious of the 2) will ask all of us to enable logging. And I will, because if I can improve somewhere to get us mo' bettah in vMOL, I will.

If one is not in a steady group, then setting yourself to anonymous would be a wise course of action.

Since the logs are not real-time, if one is anonymous, I suspect the chances of actual trolling are remote.

If that is not the case, and trolling becomes too common, I am willing to bet that ZOS will make further iterations on the logging.

Honestly if they allowed people to opt out 100% then I don't think anybody would care.

I concur.

I am not a software developer, regardless of how many times I stayed in a Holiday Inn, but if it they could do it so it just left a ... I don't know ... 'Calculated on 75% of the data' ... that may work.

It appears, based off the gleaming I get from the website's owner, that the biggest impact of a redaction, versus anonymous, is the ability to 'verify' the data for a leaderboard score.

Who the hell is gunning for a leaderboard position off a PUG?

In other words, so what then?

But, I am neither a developer, nor the person running the site.

EDITed for the source of the gleaming:

Kihra wrote: »

I mean, it's possible, but I wouldn't be able to allow a log like that to rank, and I would probably need to put a big disclaimer on it that data was missing.

muh

Useful

jainiadral wrote: »

But I do have to ask, if you know who sucks in your group out of the gate, why the heck do you need this tool?

First of all, I don't care if someone doesn't pull insane damage numbers in PUGs.
I've also asked new, low CP, players if I could give them some basic tips about combat in general that could help them improve their damage. That's usually a very brief, guided, introduction to animation canceling with an invitation to ask me if they have further questions. This usually also includes a free or heavily discounted set of starting gear. And by discounted I mean something like "what do you think this would be worth" and everything they say is good enough for me, as long as it's below material cost.

I've also been victim to low CP kicks as soon as I joined a random vet DLC dungeon in the past. Neither the removal of CMX nor ESOlogs will change the existance of a small minority of idiots in any game.

---

The way I've used combat logging tools like esologs.com is to analyse my own performance in different situations. Analyse why I did well in some tries / kills or not so well in others. Figure out why I died in some situations and how I can prevent it in the future. In games with active damage cooldowns I've also used combat logging to figue out where to use them best.

With esologs, one of the things I'm looking forward to most is taking a deep dive into my own rotations/ability priorities and optimize my damage uptime. Maybe flatten a few dips to get more consistent overall dps.
I've returned to ESO just a couple month ago and there is room for improvement. While CMX does a good job to tell how well you kept your buffs up and how much damage you dealt overall, it doesn't provide detailed information of dps over the duration of a fight.

It also helps to look at logs of high scoring players if they're public to dig into their ability timeline.

---

In terms of group situations. Right now we're fumbling a bit in the dark during progression. The only things we can say about most tries are the very obvious things, but with a website like esologs we can dive a bit deeper into what actually goes on and work on real problems instead of things we think could be a problem.

Talking from experience in other games, that could mean that we optimize positioning to better utilize aoe healing to reduce the drain on healer. Or if it's avoidable damage to bring that to attention again, which may also results in better call outs for a mechanic by the raid leader to make it smoother overall. It's very rare that we have used it to tell someone specifically that they're doing something wrong. They must have shown some resistance to previous hints for that.

As long as DPS is above reasonable levels we rarely look into it, unless it's a dps check boss fight and dps is more or less everything that matters.
Generally speaking, if someone did worse than usual or noticably worse compared to other DD it may have caused to look into individual tries to better understand why and how that happened. Maybe it's just that they have been exceptionally unlucky with mechanics all evening. And one bad evening isn't indicative of anything. If it happens multiple nights it may have caused us to approach them to maybe help them out if they're struggeling with something and try and help solve that issue.

---

Now about the privacy concerns. I fail to understand how someone would be able to doxx or swat you by having access to your character name - which is displayed on the website and pretty much the only identifiable thing transmitted in logs - and your dps/hps. This whole thing is so blown out of proportion that it actually physically hurts a little.

With such paranoia I'm actually baffled you're using the internet at all. Every search you perform on google is tracked. Various websites store cookies to track your browsing behaviour. I don't want to know how many that cry "invasive" actually just click accept and give all of those websites permission to do whatever they want with their cookies. I don't even want to know how many of those that consider this "invasive" are using any form of social media. If you're so concerned about your privacy on the internet, social media is everything but private. Even this forum. Not even gonna start with owning a smart phone...

I'm fairly certain this website and funcitonality will be used by a minority of a minority. You all act like everyone will be running it 24/7 with Elsweyr and upload every world boss. Which I doubt even has a category on the website to be listed.
You can all just visit e.g. warcraftlogs.com and have a look around. Maybe even try to find a couple bad player.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

Well, muh, you don't seem to get the privacy concerns, so the rest of your blather is useless. And your "fairly certain" is certainly NOT something to give people confidence.

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

So.... is ZOS paying you to do this? Does WoW pay you? FF?

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

muh

Useful

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

xeNNNNN

DenMoria wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

This tool will only increase the already high elitism which exists in ESO.
I can imagine many group leaders request the use of this tool as mandatory.

Agree.

Can you imagine how alienated newer players and those who refuse to meta would be?

Nobody wants to group with you when you below CP500 anymore anyhow.

Besides, if you're a healer or a tank, sometimes the DPS is a bit ridiculous.

I actually got criticized for my healer only doing about 15K dps. Sure I kept the team healthy and buffed, but that didn't matter. I was still expected to be the DD?

I'm confused.

Yep. Although I've met a few decent people in guilds who run raids. They'll help where they can and if someone is struggling they wont rage they'll try to help them solve the issue, in the case of DPS they would see it and try to help them make their build better and help them with rotations.

That said, I think the dilemma here is that the "elitists" are far more visible than those who are not because the elitists are extremely loud. To the point where its no longer amusing its just sad.

After completing most of the trials in the game and every hardmode dungeon and meeting so many people I can honestly say there are more nice people than elitists. Ive also often found that those with that "elitist" mentality are often worse at the game than they pretend, this will probably expose that. A lot of people will shut up basically.

I guess the top 5% of players though is there own category and have expectations but the rest is ehhh and as a main healer I can tell you that idiot who said that too you about DPS while you're healing is garbage. The only groups where I would even suspect that would happen dps wise is high tier groups because the players in the groups can be trusted to survive most things in the runs barring global damage phases and all that and even then thats only for certain things and on top of that its not even necessary unless you're going for some insane speed run.

I do agree though, this will scare a lot of people looking to get better at the game as they wont have the courage to try the harder content to get the experience necessary.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

witchdoctor

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

I thought with your horrible satellite ping you never group with people.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

I thought with your horrible satellite ping you never group with people.

I don't. However, I have some serious issues with a company that goes this direction. Y'know.... it's an okay game. But it's not like I can't live without it.

Jhalin

Useful

Sylvermynx wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

I thought with your horrible satellite ping you never group with people.

I don't. However, I have some serious issues with a company that goes this direction. Y'know.... it's an okay game. But it's not like I can't live without it.

It’s not “private”

Name ONE piece of sensitive information this has potentional to disclose

Sylvermynx

Invasive

[edited to remove inappropriate comment] I don't group, so no one has any issue with my dps. I have an issue with the obviation of privacy. That's what I'm talking about. You are obfuscating the whole privacy situation.

I certainly hope GDPR tears you all a new one.

witchdoctor

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't group, so no one has any issue with my dps. I have an issue with the obviation of privacy. That's what I'm talking about. You are obfuscating the whole privacy situation.

I certainly hope GDPR tears you all a new one.

Wow.

I am really, really, really certain that ZOS has far better access to legal advice then the people, you included, in this forum.

Flares

Useful

Runefang wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Something I just now considered, which could of course be entertaining on the one side but also be a fine line to cyber bullying, would be a hall of shame. Say someone makes a forum thread and shows the ridiculous failings of anonymous players. While sure, that would probably result in some hilarious content, being on the receiving end of it and discovering your own run in such a thread and seeing others laugh at you, even when you are anonymous, would suck a lot!

See, this was the first thing that crossed my mind. Bullies would have a field day with this. Bullies with script-kiddie friends could gain scads of detailed data potentially on every player in the game if they breached ESOLogs' security. Putting all of this *very* personal gaming data on a third-party site without decent consent provisions or reasonable, disclosed protections is a huge mistake.

I mean the little parody nVidia ad someone posted is kinda creepy (and hilarious XD), but what real people with real access to personal data can do to you on and offline can potentially be worse than a faceless corporation.

I don't know ESOLogs from Adam, and that makes me very uncomfortable. I run exclusively solo, so absolutely nothing in this new "feature" is useful to me in the slightest, but the fact that I can't opt out totally opens me and people like me to the downsides if someone decides to fire this up at a WB, dolmen, or geyser.

I hope ZOS reconsiders this.

You run exclusively solo and you'e worried about it? *face palm*

If you only run solo who are you worried about kicking you from their group because your dps is abysmal??

Nah, he's worried he might kick himself from group. [edited to remove inappropriate comment]

Flares

Useful

Sylvermynx wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

If you're going to substitute an MMO with a single player game, esologs would not affect you anyway.

witchdoctor

Flares wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

If you're going to substitute an MMO with a single player game, esologs would not affect you anyway.

Or play ESO like a single-player game ...

VaranisArano

Jhalin wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

I thought with your horrible satellite ping you never group with people.

I don't. However, I have some serious issues with a company that goes this direction. Y'know.... it's an okay game. But it's not like I can't live without it.

It’s not “private”

Name ONE piece of sensitive information this has potentional to disclose

If you do not set yourself to Anonymous, it allows anyone grouped with you to record, upload, and share your Character Name+your combat data however they like.

Now, that's only a problem if Anonymity is not the default (Currently, Anonymity is NOT the default). With Anonymity something that has to be checked off to get, it is very likely that at least some players, particularly new and returning players, will miss that requirement, and find their character names attached to logs, amd have to take steps to reclaim their anonymity.

If Anonymity becomes the default, then players get to choose to reveal their Character name with the combat data.

We can go round and round about whether that constitutes "Private" or "sensitive" data or what-not. Being an American citizen myself, that's not something I'm that interested in debating, as I'm no ezpert on the EU law.


However, as ESO has worked in the past with addons like Combat Metrics, the player is in control of posting their individual character name + combat data.

As ESO Logs works right now, the default setting assumes we all consent to have our Character Name + combat data shared with anyone.

I want the default on ESO Logs changed to better reflect the current state of in game privacy. Changing the default to "Anonymous" means that players get to decide whether they want their character name attached to their combat data, rather than having their consent assumed.

Make that change, and I'm a lot less concerned about privacy issues.

MrGraves

Invasive

witchdoctor wrote: »

Flares wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

If you're going to substitute an MMO with a single player game, esologs would not affect you anyway.

Or play ESO like a single-player game ...

I think Sylver is saying he has an issue with it morally and dislikes the company (ZoS) letting someone make a tool that would be invasive to some with no real way of opting out. Regardless of if they use the tool or not or are personally effected by it it's a bad practice and they don't want to support the company doing things like that which they disagree with.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

Flares wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

If you're going to substitute an MMO with a single player game, esologs would not affect you anyway.

*rolls eyes*

Yeah. That was self evident. The point of course is that in a SPMR game, no one does stupid crap I have no control over. I still play both Oblivion and Skyrim, and I really enjoy them. I got into ESO because an IRL friend was so hyped on it, along with three other IRL friends. None of us are really happy about this particular thing though. And all of us are still playing Oblivion and Skyrim.

Seems there's a disconnect here. Some of us manage to get around the obvious detrimental aspects of MMOs for a while, and of course we still enjoy SPMR games. Others seem to think that only MMOs have any value as far as playability. I enjoy an MMO for a while. But then the company inevitably does something that causes me to cancel subs and go back to SPMR games.

That's where I am right now. Oh sure, my personal playstyle isn't exposing my info to whoever. But you know.... my dislike of this isn't predicated on self-interest. It's predicated on the degradation of privacy in the real world - for everyone.

witchdoctor

MrGraves wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Flares wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Oh.... yeah. 'nother question. How are you people actually monetizing this? No, don't tell me just through ad clicks, as I don't believe that. So yeah, you got these huge sites.... and I'm quite sure you're not funding them out of your own pockets and the "goodness of your hearts".

Transparency.... give over, or go away.

Ad revenue and over 2000 people on Patreon.

Really. Apparently a lot of stupid people out there. Nope son. Not doing your thing. My privacy is FAR more important than your monetization. Y'all need to figure out how to allow people privacy - and that mean you (and ZOS) need to set this up to allow ONLY "opt in" from the word go. If no one opts in, guess you won't be making your millions.

Works for me.

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

If you're going to substitute an MMO with a single player game, esologs would not affect you anyway.

Or play ESO like a single-player game ...

I think Sylver is saying he has an issue with it morally and dislikes the company (ZoS) letting someone make a tool that would be invasive to some with no real way of opting out. Regardless of if they use the tool or not or are personally effected by it it's a bad practice and they don't want to support the company doing things like that which they disagree with.

Would be fair enough - if they perhaps explained where they think it is an actual breach of 'private' info, or 'privacy.'

They didn't. They instead made disparaging inferences off the running of the website in question.

MLGProPlayer

Useful

Arciris wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

More garbage taking up time and resources that could be deployed to FIX the real issues
like the absolutely horrendous servers, support and communication instead of providing elitists with more muck to spread!

I don't agree much with the wording but I do agree that this offers only a slight upgrade to already existing tools and will only be useful to a very small minority of people (not talking about forum people, forum people is already a minority population of people who care enough to be here), while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks.

I completely agree that the way the use of resources is prioritized seems really off, when breaking free, bar swapping and even skills firing (especially ultimates) are now RNG based and need an urgent fix - just to give a few examples that are affecting a very large number of people and impacting heavily their enjoyment of the game.

Also, I don't see how this will improve Accessibility of harder content but i can definitely see how this new tool could lower that same Accessibility.

Addressing the issue of Accessibility seems to go the same direction of "upping the floor/lowering the ceiling": result in the exact opposite of the original intent.

It helps progression guilds progress. It will drastically increase accessibility.

It doesn't affect casuals in any way, shape, or form so you statement of "while raising legitimate concerns in a majority of other folks" is complete nonsense.

As I'm writing this post, the "Invasive" option collects 56% of the votes, so my statement is not non sense, it is fact.

Maybe this will help some progression guilds for Trials, I never said otherwise, but what about Vet DLC dungeons?
People are already afraid to even attempt them, even on normal, and with another tool to further intimidate them, I don't see how this will increase sales on those DLC's....
At ZOS, they are probably brainstorming to find out what kind of "not-resource-heavy-to-produce" content they could use instead of Dungeons, because obviously those are not meeting their sale expectations and if their attempt to increase Accessibility on those fail, you can be sure they will drop the production of such content: is that what you want?

Also, the main point of the argument was to question the choice of prioritizing the use of resources - however small- for the benefit of a very small percentage of the population over using those resources to help improve the gaming experience of a larger number of people.

So your statement is a fact because a few other people share your opinion? That's not what a "fact" is...

This won't have any impact on DLC dungeons. You can already see how much damage the other DPS is doing using Combat Metrics. If you're pulling 80% of team DPS and your healer is pulling 15% DPS, it means your other DPS is a problem and needs to be kicked.

People expecting to be carried through all content crying about being exposed are incredibly selfish. Learn to play the game and then enter the content and no one will give you any negative feedback. Queuing for vet DLC dungeons with mismatched gear and the light attacking your way to 5k DPS is a sure-fire way to get kicked/bad mouthed, and you have no one but yourself to blame. And again, this tool doesn't change that. CM, an existing add-on, gives you a much clearer picture of team performance already.

Sylvermynx

Invasive

*She* thank you. I am neither "he" or "they".

Disparaging inferences? As how? Asking how they're monetizing? EVERY site these days monetizes. I asked and muh answered. I don't like what they're doing, but *shrug*.... if you want to go there well you certainly can and it's no skin off my nose.

The privacy issues are that you cannot (at this time) simply state that you are not willing to participate period. Until that is an option, well.... I will seriously think about no longer playing this game.

Jeremy

Just want to chime in as it relates to the debate regarding EU law and privacy concerns.

Terms of service are not laws - nor do they have the weight of law. So it really doesn't matter what a player agrees to when they sign up to play a game. If the actions violate the consumer protections of a certain country they are liable and vulnerable to lawsuits regardless of the ToS.

This is especially the case in ESO - which basically says they can do what ever they want in the ToS and that everything is subject to change. Courts have already thrown out Terms of Services in the past that were so open-ended and included provisions like that. Terms of Service are not > the law nor do they give companies free reign to violate the consumer protection or privacy laws in the country they are operating. That being said - I'm unfamiliar with European Law so I have no idea if such a log would actually violate their consumer protection or privacy laws or not (I rather doubt it to be honest). But if it does - then it does - and the ToS wouldn't change that.

Alienoutlaw

Invasive

Jhalin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

If ZOS chooses to run with this, I'll be cancelling subs and heading back to Skyrim. Yep. I'm only one person, but I kind of think there are more like me out there.

I thought with your horrible satellite ping you never group with people.

I don't. However, I have some serious issues with a company that goes this direction. Y'know.... it's an okay game. But it's not like I can't live without it.

It’s not “private”

Name ONE piece of sensitive information this has potentional to disclose

If you do not set yourself to Anonymous, it allows anyone grouped with you to record, upload, and share your Character Name+your combat data however they like.

Now, that's only a problem if Anonymity is not the default (Currently, Anonymity is NOT the default). With Anonymity something that has to be checked off to get, it is very likely that at least some players, particularly new and returning players, will miss that requirement, and find their character names attached to logs, amd have to take steps to reclaim their anonymity.

If Anonymity becomes the default, then players get to choose to reveal their Character name with the combat data.

We can go round and round about whether that constitutes "Private" or "sensitive" data or what-not. Being an American citizen myself, that's not something I'm that interested in debating, as I'm no ezpert on the EU law.


However, as ESO has worked in the past with addons like Combat Metrics, the player is in control of posting their individual character name + combat data.

As ESO Logs works right now, the default setting assumes we all consent to have our Character Name + combat data shared with anyone.

I want the default on ESO Logs changed to better reflect the current state of in game privacy. Changing the default to "Anonymous" means that players get to decide whether they want their character name attached to their combat data, rather than having their consent assumed.

Make that change, and I'm a lot less concerned about privacy issues.

None of that is even close to sensitive information

How about you try again with an actual answer

And shut the hell up about American privacy. Literally everything you’re typing right now is being logged, every search you make in google, every website you visit, every call or text you send.

Nothing about a combat log from a game poses any threat to your privacy or safety, so get over yourself

the fact the ONLY way to get data removed or not to show is to sign up to the site and claim your account name thus giving them a direct link to your email address and account name, all data that could be obtained or sold.

witchdoctor

Jeremy wrote: »

Just want to chime in as it relates to the debate regarding EU law and privacy concerns.

Terms of service are not laws - nor do they have the weight of law. So it really doesn't matter what a player agrees to when they sign up to play a game. If the actions violate the consumer protections of a certain country they are liable and vulnerable to lawsuits regardless of the ToS.

This is especially the case in ESO - which basically says they can do what ever they want in the ToS and that everything is subject to change. Courts have already thrown out Terms of Services in the past that were so open-ended and included provisions like that. Terms of Service are not > the law nor do they give companies free reign to violate the consumer protection or privacy laws in the country they are operating. That being said - I'm unfamiliar with European Law so I have no idea if such a log would actually violate their consumer protection or privacy laws or not (I rather doubt it to be honest). But if it does - then it does - and the ToS wouldn't change that.

I don't think anyone claims (seriously) that TOS supersedes law.

But I do claim that ZOS has far better access to legal advice then what passes as arm-chair lawyering around here.

Jeremy

witchdoctor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Just want to chime in as it relates to the debate regarding EU law and privacy concerns.

Terms of service are not laws - nor do they have the weight of law. So it really doesn't matter what a player agrees to when they sign up to play a game. If the actions violate the consumer protections of a certain country they are liable and vulnerable to lawsuits regardless of the ToS.

This is especially the case in ESO - which basically says they can do what ever they want in the ToS and that everything is subject to change. Courts have already thrown out Terms of Services in the past that were so open-ended and included provisions like that. Terms of Service are not > the law nor do they give companies free reign to violate the consumer protection or privacy laws in the country they are operating. That being said - I'm unfamiliar with European Law so I have no idea if such a log would actually violate their consumer protection or privacy laws or not (I rather doubt it to be honest). But if it does - then it does - and the ToS wouldn't change that.

I don't think anyone claims (seriously) that TOS supersedes law.

But I do claim that ZOS has far better access to legal advice then what passes as arm-chair lawyering around here.

That's not the impression I got. I've read several comments in this thread that seemed to be suggesting that the terms of service was the only thing that mattered.

witchdoctor

Jeremy wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Just want to chime in as it relates to the debate regarding EU law and privacy concerns.

Terms of service are not laws - nor do they have the weight of law. So it really doesn't matter what a player agrees to when they sign up to play a game. If the actions violate the consumer protections of a certain country they are liable and vulnerable to lawsuits regardless of the ToS.

This is especially the case in ESO - which basically says they can do what ever they want in the ToS and that everything is subject to change. Courts have already thrown out Terms of Services in the past that were so open-ended and included provisions like that. Terms of Service are not > the law nor do they give companies free reign to violate the consumer protection or privacy laws in the country they are operating. That being said - I'm unfamiliar with European Law so I have no idea if such a log would actually violate their consumer protection or privacy laws or not (I rather doubt it to be honest). But if it does - then it does - and the ToS wouldn't change that.

I don't think anyone claims (seriously) that TOS supersedes law.

But I do claim that ZOS has far better access to legal advice then what passes as arm-chair lawyering around here.

That's not the impression I got. I've read several comments in this thread that seemed to be suggesting that the terms of service was the only thing that mattered.

Uh ... the only thing I saw that was putting TOS as the 'rule,' was the claim by one person that their physical purchase of the install disk entitled them to anything.

I think its fair to say, it does not. EDIT TO ADD: in the context of the claim.

SirMewser

DenMoria wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

This tool will only increase the already high elitism which exists in ESO.
I can imagine many group leaders request the use of this tool as mandatory.

Agree.

Can you imagine how alienated newer players and those who refuse to meta would be?

Nobody wants to group with you when you below CP500 anymore anyhow.

Besides, if you're a healer or a tank, sometimes the DPS is a bit ridiculous.

I actually got criticized for my healer only doing about 15K dps. Sure I kept the team healthy and buffed, but that didn't matter. I was still expected to be the DD?

I'm confused.

I find that sad.

Is it weird that I am actually excited to see lower level players in the group, knowing that they may potentially encounter a surprising mechanic or see something cool they like?

Not just that but knowing I'd get to help them out if it were the case.

Whenever I think of elites, I think of people who are emotionally unstable and have you walk on egg shells (which I have met and usually leave a "lol" before departing group, regardless who they've directed it at).

Jeremy

witchdoctor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Just want to chime in as it relates to the debate regarding EU law and privacy concerns.

Terms of service are not laws - nor do they have the weight of law. So it really doesn't matter what a player agrees to when they sign up to play a game. If the actions violate the consumer protections of a certain country they are liable and vulnerable to lawsuits regardless of the ToS.

This is especially the case in ESO - which basically says they can do what ever they want in the ToS and that everything is subject to change. Courts have already thrown out Terms of Services in the past that were so open-ended and included provisions like that. Terms of Service are not > the law nor do they give companies free reign to violate the consumer protection or privacy laws in the country they are operating. That being said - I'm unfamiliar with European Law so I have no idea if such a log would actually violate their consumer protection or privacy laws or not (I rather doubt it to be honest). But if it does - then it does - and the ToS wouldn't change that.

I don't think anyone claims (seriously) that TOS supersedes law.

But I do claim that ZOS has far better access to legal advice then what passes as arm-chair lawyering around here.

That's not the impression I got. I've read several comments in this thread that seemed to be suggesting that the terms of service was the only thing that mattered.

Uh ... the only thing I saw that was putting TOS as the 'rule,' was the claim by one person that their physical purchase of the install disk entitled them to anything.

I think its fair to say, it does not.

Their purchase of the game entitles them to the same consumer and privacy protections afforded to them when making any other purchase. That's something all companies have to submit to before doing business in a country. The terms of service cannot change that. That's the point I am making here.

So the correct debate to have would be whether or not adding this "log" violates actual European consumer/privacy laws. To focus on the Terms of Service is a misnomer and not really relevant to that discussion.