LordTareq wrote: »

I actually just cured vampirism yesterday, and I’m still in two minds whether to go back. Yes you take a bit less fire damage, but magblade is about evading damage so I didn’t take much damage to begin with. The reduced sustain of no longer being vamp is noticeable, but the thing I miss most is the stealth speed. So I may go back to vamp, but I’ll give it a couple more days.

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

brandonv516 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

Iskiab wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

You misread what I wrote. I use disguise and have zero mobility issues, I assumed you use dark cloak because I can’t fathom how you can say magblades have mobility issues if you use disguise.

Fiktius wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Well thanks to forum QQ. Wings will no longer reflect.

Now, not only will magblade reck everything 1v1 but MagDK will be a dead class in open world PvP, so thanks.

Think about it for a moment:
If wings really gets 50 % damage reduction from projectiles, what does that mean?
Yes, right, only Force Pulse will hit normally, if magblade happens to use it. But everything else in the ranged tool kit is gonna hit like a wet noodle, because new wings apparently have no projectile cap, so with proper sustain wing up time can remain quite high, if refreshed frequently. Now if mag DK is gonna melt under damage which hits like wet noodle, well, then I could say that Mag NB is an opponent which mag DK least have to worry about.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

I'd most probably die and think 'don't wanna fight that again'.

Then I may bump into you again on a different character and kill you so fast I didn't even realise it was the same guy. I have 10 characters all with their strengths and weaknesses. I think 8 of them were free, I paid for 2 slots.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

I'd most probably die and think 'don't wanna fight that again'.

Then I may bump into you again on a different character and kill you so fast I didn't even realise it was the same guy. I have 10 characters all with their strengths and weaknesses. I think 8 of them were free, I paid for 2 slots.

Being underpowered in one area isn't justification for being overpowered in another. Advantages and disadvantages are one thing, but Wings is well beyond that.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

Iskiab wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

I hear you, and agree. If magblade was able to have strong melee and range in one spec I think it’d be the best solution. So magblade ranges, DK wings, magblade has to close into melee. That’s essentially how stamblade can play out.

Unfortunately that’s not how they went. Too bad, could have been a good solution, maybe devs thought it’d be hard to get right. What’s difficult is without a melee magical weapon light attacks are an issue.