magnb and reflective skills

ScruffyWhiskers

LordTareq wrote: »

I actually just cured vampirism yesterday, and I’m still in two minds whether to go back. Yes you take a bit less fire damage, but magblade is about evading damage so I didn’t take much damage to begin with. The reduced sustain of no longer being vamp is noticeable, but the thing I miss most is the stealth speed. So I may go back to vamp, but I’ll give it a couple more days.

Yeah, I did the same to try out troll king. But the Dark Stalker is the key to mobility. It's too bad Shadow Dancer is so lackluster. I can't see giving up a damage set for it just to be rid of vampirism.

Iskiab

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

wheem_ESO

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

Knootewoot

I will never cure vampire. So they stomp me to death with anything fire or DBoS as soon as I show my face. I'll respawn anyway.

#vampire4life

Iskiab

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

brandonv516

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

Iskiab

brandonv516 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

You misread what I wrote. I use disguise and have zero mobility issues, I assumed you use dark cloak because I can’t fathom how you can say magblades have mobility issues if you use disguise.

brandonv516

Iskiab wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

You misread what I wrote. I use disguise and have zero mobility issues, I assumed you use dark cloak because I can’t fathom how you can say magblades have mobility issues if you use disguise.

Okay. I wasn't the one you were replying to though, just an observation lol. Looking back I see how your comment can be taken two ways. Good luck with your Magblade(s).

Koensol

Iskiab wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Hum, I’ve been debating using a fire staff. I thought most people had cured themselves by now, definitely have to try it.

Fire staves can be good regardless, what with improved damage on single target abilities and the big heavy attacks (which can be landed from stealth/invis on a Magblade, otherwise the telegraph so obvious and slow that it's kinda bleh.

But yea most Magicka builds have essentially 0 mobility without Mist Form. Magicka Wardens can get around pretty well with the "Spiderman Heal," as long as your group/team cooperates and it doesn't bug out and teleport you backwards. Left on their own, though, Sorcerers are really the only Magicka class with mobility that's worth mentioning.

If Magicka builds aren't going to get some form of mobility implemented elsewhere, the downsides of Vampire need to be mitigated somewhat, IMO. Being hit with coordinated Dawnbreaker bombs is bad enough for any build, they don't need extra damage against Vampires on top of how good the ultimate already is. And 25% extra damage from all fire sources? Come on...

If Stamina's mobility was tied to a drawback as severe as Vampire/Mist Form, I think the forums might explode.

I’ve been messing around and the best magblade spammable in pvp is actually impulse because of reflections. Aoe flame doesn’t make too much sense so never tried it.

I get a lot of ultimate from banish the wicked, I bet lots of people feel the same way about vampire. Flame staff impulse spam incoming! Thinking about it, it makes so much sense. I think MagDKs are usually vampires too and use reflections to not take extra damage.

You must use Dark Cloak. As a ranged magblade healer using disguise I don’t agree with the mobility thing. Double take plus steed has been enough for me. Sometimes for fun I slot concealed blade too, just so I can invis super fast and get a really sweet time stop placement on a ball group.

Your comment makes me wonder, all the people complaining about snipe spam. Stamsorc WWs maybe?

You're all over the place lol. One week you say Dark Cloak sucks, the next week it's a must.

It's cool to try stuff out/theorycraft but eventually you gotta get comfortable with something. I like to make subtle changes but my builds are mostly the same (and I enjoy them).

Also some of your comments I can't take serious. For example, if you do use Dark Cloak you don't get a speed bonus from Concealed Weapon like you say you slot it for.

I'm not trying to offend you, just hoping you find something you feel comfortable with and also clear up some inaccuracies.

You misread what I wrote. I use disguise and have zero mobility issues, I assumed you use dark cloak because I can’t fathom how you can say magblades have mobility issues if you use disguise.

A question for you to illustrate what people mean. When you are in a resource tower, and you or your small group is being chased by 10+ spamming AoE snares and roots non stop, and ALL over the place... How exactly is cloak + speed going to help you reposition out of that mess? How are you going to move through the barrage of glue on the floor without some form of immunity? Remember shade is a one time ticket, and when you get jumped after having used it, it is game over.

Fiktius

My magblade never was vampire, never really had a need to go for it. What comes with the mobility thing, I rely more to my shade than I do use my cloack:
I do solo play in Cyrodiil and I must say that snares never were issue to me. Of course they are annoying to deal with, BUT if I port to my shade, I get out of enemies sight and can relocate myself. Of course already applied snare follows me as well, but then again I'm already out of their reach, so I can slowly cloack away if really needed or just deal with snare another way.
Mistform is not an option for me due I already have cloack + shade in use.

And yes, shade does have issues, but what I've paid attention, that's only near structures which players can destroy.
Shade works wonderful way in BGs and outside at Cyrodiil at fields. I can still re-position myself and have great mobility.
I'm so used to use shade that I always leave it somewhere, even if I don't expect anyone to be near: it became a habit to place a shade near, no matter where I am. :'D

WillhelmBlack

Well thanks to forum QQ. Wings will no longer reflect.

Now, not only will magblade reck everything 1v1 but MagDK will be a dead class in open world PvP, so thanks.

Fiktius

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Well thanks to forum QQ. Wings will no longer reflect.

Now, not only will magblade reck everything 1v1 but MagDK will be a dead class in open world PvP, so thanks.

Think about it for a moment:
If wings really gets 50 % damage reduction from projectiles, what does that mean?
Yes, right, only Force Pulse will hit normally, if magblade happens to use it. But everything else in the ranged tool kit is gonna hit like a wet noodle, because new wings apparently have no projectile cap, so with proper sustain wing up time can remain quite high, if refreshed frequently. Now if mag DK is gonna melt under damage which hits like wet noodle, well, then I could say that Mag NB is an opponent which mag DK least have to worry about.

WillhelmBlack

Fiktius wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Well thanks to forum QQ. Wings will no longer reflect.

Now, not only will magblade reck everything 1v1 but MagDK will be a dead class in open world PvP, so thanks.

Think about it for a moment:
If wings really gets 50 % damage reduction from projectiles, what does that mean?
Yes, right, only Force Pulse will hit normally, if magblade happens to use it. But everything else in the ranged tool kit is gonna hit like a wet noodle, because new wings apparently have no projectile cap, so with proper sustain wing up time can remain quite high, if refreshed frequently. Now if mag DK is gonna melt under damage which hits like wet noodle, well, then I could say that Mag NB is an opponent which mag DK least have to worry about.

Magblade is excellent 1v1. Poop in small-scale unless healing. Not used in AvA anymore.

MagDK is good 1v1. OK in small-scale. Not used in AvA or PvE.

Neither are great.

My personal experiences with magblade when on DK is most of the time to just ignore them. They can't hurt me, I can't find them. Wings give DK some extra CC immunity when in open world, they reflect abilities back to the caster. When DK loses its ability to do that you may as well just use mist form. It will do a better job as Wings are only used when under heavy fire. DK is losing it's identity. Just because one way of playing a class has problems with one skill.

Fiktius

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Well thanks to forum QQ. Wings will no longer reflect.

Now, not only will magblade reck everything 1v1 but MagDK will be a dead class in open world PvP, so thanks.

Think about it for a moment:
If wings really gets 50 % damage reduction from projectiles, what does that mean?
Yes, right, only Force Pulse will hit normally, if magblade happens to use it. But everything else in the ranged tool kit is gonna hit like a wet noodle, because new wings apparently have no projectile cap, so with proper sustain wing up time can remain quite high, if refreshed frequently. Now if mag DK is gonna melt under damage which hits like wet noodle, well, then I could say that Mag NB is an opponent which mag DK least have to worry about.

Magblade is excellent 1v1. Poop in small-scale unless healing. Not used in AvA anymore.

MagDK is good 1v1. OK in small-scale. Not used in AvA or PvE.

Neither are great.

My personal experiences with magblade when on DK is most of the time to just ignore them. They can't hurt me, I can't find them. Wings give DK some extra CC immunity when in open world, they reflect abilities back to the caster. When DK loses its ability to do that you may as well just use mist form. It will do a better job as Wings are only used when under heavy fire. DK is losing it's identity. Just because one way of playing a class has problems with one skill.

I main mag blade as solo in AvA and I do all kind of PvP content with this class, so I very well am aware of some issues this class is facing currently on live.
Mag blade did suffer against wings, but note that DKs can't be always avoided. There are some Battleground matches where both teams have several DKs, so if I find myself in situation where I must fight or die, I already learned to block since on live right now majority of my attacks are coming back right in my face and I try to count carefully how many projectiles I shoot and keep an eye if DK refresh the wings. There's a reason why I have in CP environment 17 K stamina in use.

Also you may have noticed in this thread that the outcome which Wings are going to get is not great for magblades either and as far as I've paid attention, this coming change of reflection removal wasn't popular idea. I was even thinking that having reflection against snipe spammers made entirely sense, so I don't agree with developers with this outcome.
Like I've said earlier in this thread: By this change developers are trying to remove one problem, but at the same time they create another one.
(Most common suggestion was changing Swallow soul and/or criple to become unreflectable however.)
Force pulse spam is not gonna kill competitive DK either way and having wet noodle damage via projectiles against DKs in 1vs1 scenario is not desired outcome from mag blades side either.
At the end developers will always do what they want, doesn't matter did players even ask those changes at first place.

Iskiab

Magblade still has a place in AvA, and so do MagDKs. It really all depends on your group’s strategy, and I’m not talking about just bombers.

Thing about pvp every guild has a ‘personality’ so to speak, usually passed down by the guild leadership’s views. Some are super squishy, some are all wardens for sub assault and DB combos, etc...

That’s why having a good pvp discussion is difficult. Everyone has their own ‘secret strategy’ based on their guild outlook but not a lot of people have actually tried different tactics.

I can tell you magblade is alive and well in AvA, you just need to figure it out, and have a guild that allows you to experiment. Personally I find guilds that are too regimented too easy to defeat because you’re always facing the same strategy. You can basicly tailor a strategy that works against certain classes/specs and repeat it every time.

Plus, pvp in ESO has devolved into reroll the flavour of the month spec. I’m used to more old school MMOs where it’s more difficult to reroll. People seem to have forgotten that the person is always more important than the class, and knowing your class is more important than what class you play.

wheem_ESO

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

WillhelmBlack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

wheem_ESO

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

WillhelmBlack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

I'd most probably die and think 'don't wanna fight that again'.

Then I may bump into you again on a different character and kill you so fast I didn't even realise it was the same guy. I have 10 characters all with their strengths and weaknesses. I think 8 of them were free, I paid for 2 slots.

Sanguinor2

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

wheem_ESO

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

I'd most probably die and think 'don't wanna fight that again'.

Then I may bump into you again on a different character and kill you so fast I didn't even realise it was the same guy. I have 10 characters all with their strengths and weaknesses. I think 8 of them were free, I paid for 2 slots.

Being underpowered in one area isn't justification for being overpowered in another. Advantages and disadvantages are one thing, but Wings is well beyond that.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

brandonv516

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

While a Magblade is resetting, a DK is recovering resources.

You don't have a choice in certain situations - sometimes the DK is in the way of the objective.

The rumored changes to Wings seem fair now. A DK that can keep Wings up will make me run out of resources because all of my burst will be cut in half. But at least I won't be killing myself in the process.

Sanguinor2

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

brandonv516

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

In BGs? You've got jokes. Good ones.

WillhelmBlack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It should be pretty obvious that something needed to happen with wings; it was/is one of the reasons that Stamina is so much better than Magicka in offensive PvP roles, since no anti-melee counterpart exists. As spammable as Wings are for some builds, they're way too good against many Magicka setups in their current state. In any other game, DK Wings would have a non-trivial cooldown.

There have been several mentions of different upcoming changes, but I haven't seen any official patch notes yet. Without knowing what all the changes will be (and keeping in mind that they're not necessarily even finalized), we can't say how good or bad the overall end result is. But yea, I just don't see how any one can step back and take an objective look at the current state of DK Wings and - with a straight face - say that everything is hunky dory.

Game is 5 years old, so are reflective scales. DK has been nerfed continuely since the first patch. It's been 'balanced' around the fact it's got defensive abilities i.e It has never had an execute. Stam vs Mag is a completely different argument. We're trying to nerf MagDK in this thread.

Unless you've found official patch notes somewhere, you don't even know if DKs - either Mag or Stam - is getting an overall nerf next patch. For all you know, other incoming changes will cause Mag DKs to become gods amongst peasants, being more overpowered than anything in ESO has ever been. Or perhaps not - none of us know.

Either way, as I said above, it should be pretty obvious that something needed to be changed with wings. It's far too good against many Magicka builds, no matter how many nerfs this-or-that class has or hasn't gotten over the years. As long as Wings remains in its current form, there simply cannot be balance between Magicka and Stamina.

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

Believe it or not, I know the pain of not having an execute - I've been playing a Magicka Warden as a main since Morrowind's release (barring the times that I took a break from the game). But that still doesn't justify how overpowered Shimmering Shield is vs most Magicka builds.

I'd most probably die and think 'don't wanna fight that again'.

Then I may bump into you again on a different character and kill you so fast I didn't even realise it was the same guy. I have 10 characters all with their strengths and weaknesses. I think 8 of them were free, I paid for 2 slots.

Being underpowered in one area isn't justification for being overpowered in another. Advantages and disadvantages are one thing, but Wings is well beyond that.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a change. Lets say that any time you encounter my Magicka Warden in PvP, not only are you unable to shut down my offense or CC (no reflects, and no root spam to hard counter Shalks), but I am able to shut down yours. Anything that you normally use against me, I can reflect back at you - including Whip.

Do you think it's possible that you'd complain about such a situation, and find it to be a big problem with the game? Would you think it a valid counter argument if I told you to drop Whip and use Force Pulse (assume that it's compatible with your chosen weapon type) instead? Do you think you'd have a realistic chance of killing me with nothing but Force Pulse, while I'm simultaneously able to dump my damage into you at will (and doing an extra +25% on top of it, if you're a Vampire)?

You all act as if magblade has no other choice but to stand there and take it. If you didnt know a magblade can use shadow Image and cloak to reset a fight at will and just not fight those frustrating fights. I can understand that this is not the best solution but getting rid of one of the few unique things dk has left isnt a good one either.

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

Magblade would be a middle lane char in a moba, and a good one. I have played 2 types of Magblade in BG's, a Healer, which can stand just about anywhere, objectives, carry balls etc. I also played as a shield stack and burst archetype. That could kill players on the way to objectives and certainly 1-2 shot ball carriers. That build could also stand in a MagDK's full fury and shield stack away and pump out resto Ults when needed.

I've honestly never felt vulnerable on any magicka nightblade build. Maybe it's just the way I build them? I'd even go as far to say that build would be OP with the new Black Rose Prison Resto but I heard Torugs got nerfed?

Iskiab

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

I hear you, and agree. If magblade was able to have strong melee and range in one spec I think it’d be the best solution. So magblade ranges, DK wings, magblade has to close into melee. That’s essentially how stamblade can play out.

Unfortunately that’s not how they went. Too bad, could have been a good solution, maybe devs thought it’d be hard to get right. What’s difficult is without a melee magical weapon light attacks are an issue.

WillhelmBlack

Iskiab wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

I hear you, and agree. If magblade was able to have strong melee and range in one spec I think it’d be the best solution. So magblade ranges, DK wings, magblade has to close into melee. That’s essentially how stamblade can play out.

Unfortunately that’s not how they went. Too bad, could have been a good solution, maybe devs thought it’d be hard to get right. What’s difficult is without a melee magical weapon light attacks are an issue.

You can use a flame staff or a 2H tho. And the Psijic skill line has imbue which is mega for magblade ganking. I'd usually see that skill along with Caluurian, Zaan and Incap. Yes Incap not Soul Harvest.

Iskiab

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's not just Magblade that gets too heavily countered by Wings, and why should the only option be "run away?" Do you not do Battlegrounds even occasionally? Not everything is open world Cyrodiil ganking where you can just ignore anyone that counters you.

I do and I have yet to see a bg where only magdks run around and what else gets too heavily countered by wings? Your average stamblade snipe only Player? Perhaps, but magsorc? laughs in petsorc. Magdk lul, magplar lul, magden lul. Stam? Only in the dreams of dk mains. Also anywhere that is not a duel you can work with your teammates to kill Targets and you can still choose other Targets when you know that your class is countered by them. And if you want to get technical there is other ways of dealing with magdks. You can kite them, you can gank them, you can Play melee magblade, you can disengage, you can be in any other Situation than a 1v1 and you can stalemate them.

I hear you, and agree. If magblade was able to have strong melee and range in one spec I think it’d be the best solution. So magblade ranges, DK wings, magblade has to close into melee. That’s essentially how stamblade can play out.

Unfortunately that’s not how they went. Too bad, could have been a good solution, maybe devs thought it’d be hard to get right. What’s difficult is without a melee magical weapon light attacks are an issue.

You can use a flame staff or a 2H tho. And the Psijic skill line has imbue which is mega for magblade ganking. I'd usually see that skill along with Caluurian, Zaan and Incap. Yes Incap not Soul Harvest.

Yea, 2H is what a magblade would have to do. Problem is light attack scaling with 2 hander light attacks is off stamina and weapon damage. It makes your light attacks really weak. Plus the passives for destruction staves are good so you’re missing out a lot going that way.

If you use a flame staff all your light attacks can be reflected so you lose a lot of sustain and self healing from losing Siphoning Strikes. There are only three ‘melee’ attacks on magblade: concealed, lotus fan and the ultimate.

I’ve wanted to try melee magblade for a while but the concensus is 2 damage sets are required to burst someone down. Magblade lacks damage, tankiness, self healing, and a non-stam snare removal (forward momentum is the only option) so lends itself to the ganker playstyle. That isn’t my thing so I stuck to ranged, like you said zaan, caluurion, and a sustain set - so useless in group play.