magnb and reflective skills

brandonv516

Swiftfox_Bouncyface wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Question: Do you think more NBs would slot Dark Cloak (over Shadowy Disguise) if it had a snare removal + 3 seconds of immunity?

This would be a tough choice for some.

I would much rather they get rid of the Minor Protection and add snare removal + immunity. Let's be real that 3 seconds of that buff is not doing enough to be valuable.

Problem lies in stamblades, rn you have heavy blades using it, if the suggestion would go live we'd see dark cloak heavy blades with rally

Would that be so bad as opposed to the Stamina Snipeblades/Gankblades we have now?

Iskiab

More likely you’d see S&B NBs I’d think. Again not a bad thing.

InvictusApollo

LA -> Harness Magicka -> LA -> Soul Harvest -> LA -> Fire Reach -> LA -> Spectral Bow

Or you can use resto HA to make DK think you are out of magicka, make him go full attack and then strike with Fire Reach when he has his wings down.

kaithuzar

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

that said... don't let them talon or fossilize back... cause it's game over

Asking a DK not to fossilize is like telling my dog not to fart. It's going to happen, and it's going to happen a lot.

Could be worse, I could Talons and Reverb you

I’ve got 100 points in befoul, troll king & lingering health pots; wanna see who can survive who?

-pc_na

kaithuzar

LordTareq wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Question: Do you think more NBs would slot Dark Cloak (over Shadowy Disguise) if it had a snare removal + 3 seconds of immunity?

This would be a tough choice for some.

I would much rather they get rid of the Minor Protection and add snare removal + immunity. Let's be real that 3 seconds of that buff is not doing enough to be valuable.

That would be a good change, I’d still use shadowy disguise but I can see how it would make dark cloak better for some builds. Plus it prevents every NB build from having both snare immunity & cloak, which would open the way for some potentially overpowered stuff like having the rally heal as well as the snare removal.

Do you think nb’s don’t already have snare immunity + cloak through forward momentum builds?

Let’s not forget every class in game can use an invisibility pot

HowlKimchi

Iskiab wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Tbh I’ve never tried melee magblade. I looked at the toolset and thought, ‘Are you kidding that’s suicidal’ and went a different direction. It’s like concealed weapon and dark cloak have 0 synergy. Melee magblade seems unfinished.

Well yeah when the morph of cloak that wasnt a sure crit was changed to a non-invi giving heal over time, it lost all synergy with concealed weapon.

I think the non-invi morph is actually decent for a

LordTareq wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Question: Do you think more NBs would slot Dark Cloak (over Shadowy Disguise) if it had a snare removal + 3 seconds of immunity?

This would be a tough choice for some.

I would much rather they get rid of the Minor Protection and add snare removal + immunity. Let's be real that 3 seconds of that buff is not doing enough to be valuable.

That would be a good change, I’d still use shadowy disguise but I can see how it would make dark cloak better for some builds. Plus it prevents every NB build from having both snare immunity & cloak, which would open the way for some potentially overpowered stuff like having the rally heal as well as the snare removal.

I'd argue that the snare removal should be given to a skill that only magNB exclusively use. Maybe on refreshing path. heavy armor stamblades with snare removal on their main self heal would be ridiculously cancerous.

LordTareq

kaithuzar wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Question: Do you think more NBs would slot Dark Cloak (over Shadowy Disguise) if it had a snare removal + 3 seconds of immunity?

This would be a tough choice for some.

I would much rather they get rid of the Minor Protection and add snare removal + immunity. Let's be real that 3 seconds of that buff is not doing enough to be valuable.

That would be a good change, I’d still use shadowy disguise but I can see how it would make dark cloak better for some builds. Plus it prevents every NB build from having both snare immunity & cloak, which would open the way for some potentially overpowered stuff like having the rally heal as well as the snare removal.

Do you think nb’s don’t already have snare immunity + cloak through forward momentum builds?

Let’s not forget every class in game can use an invisibility pot

Obviously, but currently they have to give up Rally‘s very useful heal for that. That’s what I ment.

Stibbons

Race change and reroll stamina.

Minalan

Swallow/funnel shouldn't be reflectable. DK's are incredibly strong as is without taking away some other class' healing abilities too.

The damage funnel does is negligible compared to how much a DK can actually heal. Don't worry, assassins will is and should remain reflectable.

I still think cripple should be looked at too, that's pretty much the whole class mobility there in one skill, which you can't use if your enemy has wings.
Give.me a break, it's not like wings doesn't break the snare and Grant immunity.

Rex-Umbra

Its total bs that our class spammable is reflective.

TheFamousMockingbird

A note on MagNB Concealed Weapon use. For some reason this ability does not count as a melee attack to the game. It doesn’t proc any melee on-hit effects from armor sets or CP. Is it because it’s a magic skill?

Minno

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

A note on MagNB Concealed Weapon use. For some reason this ability does not count as a melee attack to the game. It doesn’t proc any melee on-hit effects from armor sets or CP. Is it because it’s a magic skill?

yes even though I think that is dumb.

Iskiab

Minno wrote: »

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

A note on MagNB Concealed Weapon use. For some reason this ability does not count as a melee attack to the game. It doesn’t proc any melee on-hit effects from armor sets or CP. Is it because it’s a magic skill?

yes even though I think that is dumb.

I didn’t know that, good to know.

ScruffyWhiskers

TheFamousMockingbird wrote: »

A note on MagNB Concealed Weapon use. For some reason this ability does not count as a melee attack to the game. It doesn’t proc any melee on-hit effects from armor sets or CP. Is it because it’s a magic skill?

so that means it's special and should go through dodge roll. That's why it originally did this. It wasn't a bug and they should not have changed it.

Pdoherty4637_ESO

Have always said that the easy solution to this is to have one morph of wings have the reflect ability for those who really like making magNBs and magSorcs ragequit but that morph offer no other buffs, and the reflective plate morph that most DKs currently use for the snare removal just DEFLECT ranged attacks instead of reflecting (with an easy way to differentiate visually between the two). This way, you still get a very strong defense against ranged attacks and snare removal as the casting dragonknight, but as the sorc/nb you can still sustain pressure on the DK without killing yourself and wasting limited stamina resources dodging or blocking your own attacks.

As of my reading, every experienced MagNB in this thread has said they just don't even engage DKs because of how wings vs. magNB toolkit currently works. When a magNB is fighting a magDK of equal skill, it will result in a stalemate or a win for the DK every time. At least on Sorc you can get an occasional DBoS/Curse/Wrath combo kill.

From a dragonknight perspective, wings is either an "i-win" button or an entirely useless skill slot depending on who you're fighting, which is why adding the snare removal on reflective plate resurrected the skill for many DKs and brought it back into relevance. I am all for moving power away from the reflec portion and giving more utility to compensate so that the skill is still a strong defense against ranged attacks, but also gives consistent value to the DK casting it. It shouldn't be such a nightmare for a ranged class spec who doesn't want to change their entire build for the times they might run into a DK.

Ariades_swe

If my mdk use wings together with smart use of harness he can pretty much have wings up 24/7 while never go below 90 % magicka so yeah I feel your pain magnbs.

Iskiab

You know I was thinking, maybe the reason every magblade skill is reflectable is because magblades are meant to be able to melee well. If the class is meant to be melee and range then the issue is solely that the melee side of magblade is too weak.

Whenever I hear DKs defend wings they say it’s because wings are supposed to force players into melee against them. I’m fine with that as long as a magblade has a chance of winning.

What’s needed then for starters would be a magical damage based melee weapon, concealed weapon to have a synergy with dark cloak, and better self healing since every source of self healing can be reflected if you use a destro staff.

Some possibilities:
- dark cloak makes your weapon damage equal your spell damage
- concealed blade getting a hot attached like swallow soul

That’s all I can think of atm.

kaithuzar

How about concealed weapon now procs a form of magical bleed dmg that can’t be resisted!
It’s in line with every patch over the past year!

Iskiab

kaithuzar wrote: »

How about concealed weapon now procs a form of magical bleed dmg that can’t be resisted!
It’s in line with every patch over the past year!

Sounds good. /signed. I think moreso self healing is the issue but it’s better than nothing.

Without more self healing magblades will stick to ganking because they’ll lack enough defense to stay exposed for an extended period.

Mayrael

Magblades currently need 2 things desperately. 1 - Snare & root removal and immunity.
2 - Skill that allows them to pressure permanent reflect&dodge builds.

For first one, my choice would be Path of darkness and morphs, both morphs should lose major expedition or change it to minor one. As long as NB stays on the path he can't be rooted or snared. Reasoning behind this:
- When used to escape its actual duration is like 2-3s and then needs to be recasted because you're out of the skill area.
- When used to fight in melee range it's opposite of Templars ritual but with smaller area and shorter duration.
- It's not that good for stamina heavy armored NBs.

For the second one... Let's change Sap Essence ability a bit. When hitting one enemy it deals damage comparable to concealed weapon and heals for 20% of damage done. Each enemy hit lowers the damage of the skill by 20% and increases the healing done by 20% up to 5 enemies (healing feature already works like this on live, we would just change skill damage based on enemies hit which would not affect current skill). Reasoning behind this:
- It forces NB to stay in melee range as it can be used only on short range.
- Doesn't require any nerfs to wings. It can replace swallow soul as a spamable due to heal implemented.
- Concealed weapon would be still better when trying to kill single enemy when faced multiple enemies.


Both changes would make magicka melee NB more viable and feel more unique, it would not nerf anyone including PvE.

Fiktius

Iskiab wrote: »

You know I was thinking, maybe the reason every magblade skill is reflectable is because magblades are meant to be able to melee well. If the class is meant to be melee and range then the issue is solely that the melee side of magblade is too weak.

Whenever I hear DKs defend wings they say it’s because wings are supposed to force players into melee against them. I’m fine with that as long as a magblade has a chance of winning.

I do agree that melee mag blade could need some help, but let's not forget that ranged magblade is suffering from DK wings as well, so instead of focusing to just buff melee magblade and leave ranged ones to suffer, why not trying to come up with solution which would benefit both playstyles? Melee and ranged magblades should be both viable since they are both legit playstyles.
I also do understand DK's counter argument about forcing enemies to come closer, but then again, how come is it fair that one skill can shut down entire playstyle? That's an indicator that something is working a bit too well.

Also nobody likes nerfs and snipe is perfect example why reflecting skills makes sense, so I wouldn't touch how wings function.
An approach which would make sense in my eyes would be tweaking nightblade skills a bit, without leaving one gameplay style in misery, meanwhile another one would get buffed.
Like mentioned earlier, easiest approach would be letting cripple and/or swallow soul (and their morphs) become unreflectable. Both playstyles would benefit from this without changing anything that would have significant impact in PvE.
By this way we wouldn't be as side effect changing PvE just in order to make PvP more tolerable for magblades.

RinaldoGandolphi

See, whats being discussed here is why balance in this game is terrible.

Ranged DPS, especailly ranged burst DPS has been too strong in PVP for a long time.

Strife + Fear + Soul Harvest + Canceled Impale = wrecked

Strife + Fear + Assasins Will + Impale = wrecked

Mag Sorc is the same way, the class is balanced now only because its significantly weaker defensively than it used to be due to sheild nerfs. Timing Curse + Frags + Fury with Force Pulse spam and sometimes a Dawnbreaker or Meteor is huge burst DPS, most of it from range.

What folks are asking here with these magblade ranged buffs is ridiclious. these skills ahve 28+ meters range in Cyrodiil. The only thing that makes Strife balanced is the fact it can be reflected consider what it gives passivly for being slotted

8% max magicka
3% increased healing
2 ultimate every 4 seconds in combat

The skill would be completely OP if it wasn't able to be reflected due to those passives.

Furthermore, Melee Magblade is NOT weak at all. Concealed Weapon is every bit as good as Flame Lash, i'd even argue it actaully better.

Concealed Weapon gives:

1. increased movement speed while in cloak or stealthed
2. Gives Major Resolve and Major Ward passivly simply by using it (other classes have to slot an actual defensive skill like Boundless Storm, Spiked Armor, etc for this buff)
3. gives 3% max health when slotted
4. increases the duration of Shadow abilites (Cloak last longer)
5. Synergizes with the Master Assassin passive that gives 10% increased Spell damage while cloaked or stealth.
6. Synergizes with Cloak and the Hemmorage passive to increase crit strike damage by 10%

So attacking while cloaked or stealthed with Concealed Weapon also sets targets off balanced and stuns them, gives the attacker Major Resolve and Ward, Shadow Disguise before attacking is a guaranteed crit that does 10% more, this skill is incredibly strong. You combine this with cheap Soul Harvest and a Fear you just crush people if you know how to play it.

Saying Magblade is weak is just so under selling things. shade + Cloak means you don't even need to be a vampire to get away and disengage from most encounters, your cloak/stealth speed is off the hook with Concealed Weapon slotted, and Concealed hits like a truck if you build properly for it.

MagDk has slightly better range on lash and better CC options, but I think Mag Blade is the better melee damage dealer due to Soul Harvest being so cheap with its ult gain and give a 20% increased damage bonus and Impale being a cheap ranged execute that hits like a train.

Yeah, melee mag blade is harder to learn how to play because there is more risk involved in doing damage from melee, but thats the nature of the beast. It doesn't make it weaker. I'd argue Melee magblade is better open world than magdk because mag dk can't escape being zerged down by 20 people, melee magblade has a pretty good chance with Shadow Image + Cloak + Concealed Weapon.

Melee Magblade hits harder due to Soul Harvest and Impale, MagDK has better control options and healing due to Talons, Fossilize, and Power Lash. Seems pretty balanced to me, the more skillful player will usually win that encounter anyways. Melee Magblade is no where near as weak as people purport.

casparian

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

its significantly weaker defensively than it used to be due to sheild nerfs.

TIL some people still think shields have been nerfed.

kaithuzar

@RinaldoGandolphi
I haven’t seen your name around in a while, when is the last time you played?
When is the last time you played magblade?
When is the last time you played a melee magblade?

Sure things look good on paper but I guarantee if you try fighting as a melee magblade you probably won’t win baring a chance if you use calurion+Zane proc set cheese.
Think about it, you’re going to get what? 1 maybe 2 attacks from stealth during an entire fight? There is enough aoe damage + detect pots to keep the pressure on you from doing anything meaningful before you get melted.

Tell you what, I’ll get on my stam dk bleed build & we’ll see who last longer.

brandonv516

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See, whats being discussed here is why balance in this game is terrible.

Ranged DPS, especailly ranged burst DPS has been too strong in PVP for a long time.

Strife + Fear + Soul Harvest + Canceled Impale = wrecked

Strife + Fear + Assasins Will + Impale = wrecked

Mag Sorc is the same way, the class is balanced now only because its significantly weaker defensively than it used to be due to sheild nerfs. Timing Curse + Frags + Fury with Force Pulse spam and sometimes a Dawnbreaker or Meteor is huge burst DPS, most of it from range.

What folks are asking here with these magblade ranged buffs is ridiclious. these skills ahve 28+ meters range in Cyrodiil. The only thing that makes Strife balanced is the fact it can be reflected consider what it gives passivly for being slotted

8% max magicka
3% increased healing
2 ultimate every 4 seconds in combat

The skill would be completely OP if it wasn't able to be reflected due to those passives.

Furthermore, Melee Magblade is NOT weak at all. Concealed Weapon is every bit as good as Flame Lash, i'd even argue it actaully better.

Concealed Weapon gives:

1. increased movement speed while in cloak or stealthed
2. Gives Major Resolve and Major Ward passivly simply by using it (other classes have to slot an actual defensive skill like Boundless Storm, Spiked Armor, etc for this buff)
3. gives 3% max health when slotted
4. increases the duration of Shadow abilites (Cloak last longer)
5. Synergizes with the Master Assassin passive that gives 10% increased Spell damage while cloaked or stealth.
6. Synergizes with Cloak and the Hemmorage passive to increase crit strike damage by 10%

So attacking while cloaked or stealthed with Concealed Weapon also sets targets off balanced and stuns them, gives the attacker Major Resolve and Ward, Shadow Disguise before attacking is a guaranteed crit that does 10% more, this skill is incredibly strong. You combine this with cheap Soul Harvest and a Fear you just crush people if you know how to play it.

Saying Magblade is weak is just so under selling things. shade + Cloak means you don't even need to be a vampire to get away and disengage from most encounters, your cloak/stealth speed is off the hook with Concealed Weapon slotted, and Concealed hits like a truck if you build properly for it.

MagDk has slightly better range on lash and better CC options, but I think Mag Blade is the better melee damage dealer due to Soul Harvest being so cheap with its ult gain and give a 20% increased damage bonus and Impale being a cheap ranged execute that hits like a train.

Yeah, melee mag blade is harder to learn how to play because there is more risk involved in doing damage from melee, but thats the nature of the beast. It doesn't make it weaker. I'd argue Melee magblade is better open world than magdk because mag dk can't escape being zerged down by 20 people, melee magblade has a pretty good chance with Shadow Image + Cloak + Concealed Weapon.

Melee Magblade hits harder due to Soul Harvest and Impale, MagDK has better control options and healing due to Talons, Fossilize, and Power Lash. Seems pretty balanced to me, the more skillful player will usually win that encounter anyways. Melee Magblade is no where near as weak as people purport.

-Melee Magblade is strong while setting up burst in Cloak.
-However, Cloak is easily countered in melee range.
-Therefore melee Magblade is not strong.

A long response is not necessary as this is a simple truth.

Iskiab

You can’t look at abilities in isolation. Get rid of wings and all magdk self healing, then we can buff lash to be stronger than concealed blade.

RinaldoGandolphi

kaithuzar wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi
I haven’t seen your name around in a while, when is the last time you played?
When is the last time you played magblade?
When is the last time you played a melee magblade?

Sure things look good on paper but I guarantee if you try fighting as a melee magblade you probably won’t win baring a chance if you use calurion+Zane proc set cheese.
Think about it, you’re going to get what? 1 maybe 2 attacks from stealth during an entire fight? There is enough aoe damage + detect pots to keep the pressure on you from doing anything meaningful before you get melted.

Tell you what, I’ll get on my stam dk bleed build & we’ll see who last longer.

@kaithuzar

Hey there! its been about a month since i was last on. I don't play as much as i used to simply because the game is far less fun than it was due to the changes they have made.

Its probably been 6 months or so since i last played Magblade, I tried both ranged and melee and i thought both were decent, of course both struggle in certain cases. Its not by any means what I would call top tier. In fact thinking about it, MagDK may actually be slightly better in melee because even though it has less burst damage, Burning Embers, Power Lash, Talons, Fossilize, and Draw Essence are all really strong skills that give some sustain and healing thus making it easier to stay alive.

I have no doubt a bleed stam dk will beat a mag blade most of the time. Its just a strong set up right now. Its been strong for awhile.

I'd be ok with them changing Reflective Scales as long as the class is given something else to compensate. MagDK is just slow as snail, no execute, must use an ult to kill people, etc..it has some real weaknesses just like MagBlade does.

I will add that i thought changing Dark Cloak to a heal was the wrong move. I think Magblasde heal should not force them to give up their invisibility. The heal should have been tied to another skill. Concealed Weapon should probably get Major Breech to make it competitive with Surprise Attack. Just some ideas.

Anyways, I know you been playing Magblade since what 2014? I am not going to purport that I know more about it than you. I was just stating whats on paper with their passives.

anyways, good talking to you. Glad to see your still around. Take it easy!

likecats

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See, whats being discussed here is why balance in this game is terrible.

Ranged DPS, especailly ranged burst DPS has been too strong in PVP for a long time.

Strife + Fear + Soul Harvest + Canceled Impale = wrecked

Strife + Fear + Assasins Will + Impale = wrecked

Mag Sorc is the same way, the class is balanced now only because its significantly weaker defensively than it used to be due to sheild nerfs. Timing Curse + Frags + Fury with Force Pulse spam and sometimes a Dawnbreaker or Meteor is huge burst DPS, most of it from range.

What folks are asking here with these magblade ranged buffs is ridiclious. these skills ahve 28+ meters range in Cyrodiil. The only thing that makes Strife balanced is the fact it can be reflected consider what it gives passivly for being slotted

8% max magicka
3% increased healing
2 ultimate every 4 seconds in combat

The skill would be completely OP if it wasn't able to be reflected due to those passives.

Furthermore, Melee Magblade is NOT weak at all. Concealed Weapon is every bit as good as Flame Lash, i'd even argue it actaully better.

Concealed Weapon gives:

1. increased movement speed while in cloak or stealthed
2. Gives Major Resolve and Major Ward passivly simply by using it (other classes have to slot an actual defensive skill like Boundless Storm, Spiked Armor, etc for this buff)
3. gives 3% max health when slotted
4. increases the duration of Shadow abilites (Cloak last longer)
5. Synergizes with the Master Assassin passive that gives 10% increased Spell damage while cloaked or stealth.
6. Synergizes with Cloak and the Hemmorage passive to increase crit strike damage by 10%

So attacking while cloaked or stealthed with Concealed Weapon also sets targets off balanced and stuns them, gives the attacker Major Resolve and Ward, Shadow Disguise before attacking is a guaranteed crit that does 10% more, this skill is incredibly strong. You combine this with cheap Soul Harvest and a Fear you just crush people if you know how to play it.

Saying Magblade is weak is just so under selling things. shade + Cloak means you don't even need to be a vampire to get away and disengage from most encounters, your cloak/stealth speed is off the hook with Concealed Weapon slotted, and Concealed hits like a truck if you build properly for it.

MagDk has slightly better range on lash and better CC options, but I think Mag Blade is the better melee damage dealer due to Soul Harvest being so cheap with its ult gain and give a 20% increased damage bonus and Impale being a cheap ranged execute that hits like a train.

Yeah, melee mag blade is harder to learn how to play because there is more risk involved in doing damage from melee, but thats the nature of the beast. It doesn't make it weaker. I'd argue Melee magblade is better open world than magdk because mag dk can't escape being zerged down by 20 people, melee magblade has a pretty good chance with Shadow Image + Cloak + Concealed Weapon.

Melee Magblade hits harder due to Soul Harvest and Impale, MagDK has better control options and healing due to Talons, Fossilize, and Power Lash. Seems pretty balanced to me, the more skillful player will usually win that encounter anyways. Melee Magblade is no where near as weak as people purport.

Argument goes down the drain when you fail to realize that fear is not a ranged cc, nor is soul harvest a ranged ultimate.
Both morphs of fear work terrible or don't work at all at range.

Is it really ranged dps if you have to come inside melee range to perform 1/2 your combo?

All the other skills you mentioned for magblade are dodgeable or reflectable.

You literally need to dodgeroll once, and the magblade ranged combo comes crumbling down. For every semi decent player, it's a reflexive reaction to dodgeroll when they think they are about to die, which means as a magblade you can't do any damage. Dodgeroll is a good enough counterplay for magblade, wings are way too imbalanced against magblade.



Your analysis for melee magblade is pathetic, you clearly do not know what you're talking about. Comparing melee magblade and magdk on one skill, shows your lack of understanding of why melee magblade has been terrible for the past 2 years now.
Pushing damage is not the problem for melee magblade, it's healing and mobility. Surprise surprise, magdk has great skills for healing and has a snare removal. Melee magblade can do neither.

If you can't move, it doesn't matter if have shade or cloak. It won't help you survive. Really no reason to go melee magblade when stamblade can literally do everything in melee range better.

The difficult to play or L2P argument only works when there are existing mechanics in the class that you can use to improve upon. With melee magblade, get rooted and you're done. Can't move, can't deal damage, can't tank, can't heal effectively. If there is something I'm missing that you can do while rooted please do tell. Don't say dodgeroll or purge because neither are realistically affordable for a magblade, and you know that.

For comparison when a magdk gets rooted, it has an ability to remove roots, it is a great tanking class, it can heal great.

Iskiab

Thinking about it I'm fine with DKs being able to reflect everything, except maybe exclude crippling strike. Just buff up melee magblade a bit so magblade can be a melee and ranged hybrid. Let them force melee with wings, but let that not be a death sentence for a magblade.

Still don't understand the whole mobility thing DKs are talking about. Are they saying they're slow when they block cast? Otherwise they have the same mobility as everyone else + they have a way to cleanse snares. They're actually better off then other classes except sorc. Maybe just don't want to use things like the steed mundus? IDK. More likely class envy with sorcs because of their burst because magdk was the former top dog.

ccmedaddy

Iskiab wrote: »

Still don't understand the whole mobility thing DKs are talking about. Are they saying they're slow when they block cast? Otherwise they have the same mobility as everyone else + they have a way to cleanse snares. They're actually better off then other classes except sorc. Maybe just don't want to use things like the steed mundus? IDK.

NBs have Shadow Image+Cloak to get out of dodgy situations (when Shadow Image works as intended, that is). Sorcs have Streak. DKs, Wardens and Templars don't have anything comparable. That's the mobility gap. DKs do have it slightly better than the other two though thanks to snare removal+immunity.