Nightblade Still Over Performing

Letho2469 · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Letho2469 , those are raid-buffed parses on the first page. So the comparisons are done using raid-buffed execute phases too, and they are even. And don't forget that longer execute phase is preceded by longer pre-execute too during which NBs will be doing proportionally less damage. Any other arguments?

And of course they simulated mechanics and add spawns (execute sniping), right? Magplars can easily hit those numbers, too - do they have sth. in common? yes, strong executes perfectly scaling with bloodthirsty

But in regard to one aspect you are right: This should not be specifically about nightblade, but about FotM vs Non-FotM.

Mintaka5 · March 2019

As a magsorc aficionado, who plays both a stamblade and a magblade, I agree with OP, that the nightblade class is way overpowered, especially considering the huge DPS gap that it has. The class requires very little thought to play. It's basically fire off any random sequence of rotation, and you're guaranteed a 30K parse with minimal effort. I say this from experience, because both my nightblades do excessive amounts of damage without even a thought as to what I am doing with my rotation.

TequilaFire · March 2019

Mintaka5 wrote: »

As a magsorc aficionado, who plays both a stamblade and a magblade, I agree with OP, that the nightblade class is way overpowered, especially considering the huge DPS gap that it has. The class requires very little thought to play. It's basically fire off any random sequence of rotation, and you're guaranteed a 30K parse with minimal effort. I say this from experience, because both my nightblades do excessive amounts of damage without even a thought as to what I am doing with my rotation.

I feel the same way when I play my magsorc, no effort.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Letho2469 , those are raid-buffed parses on the first page. So the comparisons are done using raid-buffed execute phases too, and they are even. And don't forget that longer execute phase is preceded by longer pre-execute too during which NBs will be doing proportionally less damage. Any other arguments?

And of course they simulated mechanics and add spawns (execute sniping), right? Magplars can easily hit those numbers, too - do they have sth. in common? yes, strong executes perfectly scaling with bloodthirsty

But in regard to one aspect you are right: This should not be specifically about nightblade, but about FotM vs Non-FotM.

No idea what you're about. People have tested bloodthirsty through and through ever since its release, it's quite balanced with infused on stam (including stamblades), just shifts damage into execute phase without changing it much if at all. And not every fight will benefit from shorter execute if it'll take you longer to reach that execute. Also, you seem to be too sure that simulated mechanics would've made NB reach that execute phase faster than stamplar or stamden, not necessarily the case with NB's clunky pre-execute rotation.

Nothing here about flavor of the month. Stamplars and stamdens are fairly competitive in all content now, among those three the flavor is mostly in people's heads. And if stamDK and stamsorc are behind the rest, it doesn't mean that the trio ahead is overperforming.

Seraphayel · March 2019

I don't know, I have the feeling that Nightblade skills / spammables are still too cheap in comparison. Especially Cloak and Veiled Strike (or what it's name is).

John_Falstaff · March 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

I don't know, I have the feeling that Nightblade skills / spammables are still too cheap in comparison. Especially Cloak and Veiled Strike (or what it's name is).

In comparison to what? SA costs 2.3k stamina, Crushing Weapon is 2.7k and it's one of most expensive spammables in the game for stamina. Rending Slashes makes great spammable (again, Liko's parses) and it costs 2.16k stamina, less than SA. On khajiit stamDK, I can sustain blue food indefinitely thanks to Claw spammable which is slightly weaker than Crushing but costs 0.7k stamina sharp (on live, only redguard / bosmer stamblades will likely be able to sustain blue food, the rest will have to run Dubious / Artaeum).

As for cloak, if we're talking stamblades, then it's a magicka skill. Stamblade can cast it two or three times before running out of magicka.

Seraphayel · March 2019

Oh I am not talking about PvE, maybe I should have added that.

Ragnarock41 · March 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh I am not talking about PvE, maybe I should have added that.

Suprise attack is really, really good but not for reasons related to cost effectiveness.(thats also a factor but there are bigger things going with it) Its a spammable that also has major fracture, and it also procs shadow barrier giving nbs resist buffs, so with one ability Nbs save up two ability slots and well thats a massive advantage for any PvP build you can think of.

I think its good class design on that part, I actually like it a lot. If only other classes got some of that stuff. I really hate filling my bar with garbage abilities just for the sake of having essential passives.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

@Seraphayel , again, not sure what it can be compared to in PvP. Heavy DW bleed builds love using Rending Slashes spammable - it's cheaper than Surprise Attack. S&B / 2H builds (one of which I mostly run)? Pierce (1.5k stamina) or Claw (0.7k stamina) spammable. Sub assault? 2k stamina. Biting Jabs? 2.5k, 0.2k more than SA, but it's AOE like Sub Assault (and with a 70% snare attached). Two-handed with Dizzying Swing - maybe more expensive, upwards of 3k stamina, but I'm not sure who can land that thing.

And yes, it's just a good class design, where things synergize and work coherently as opposed to stamDK which is a pile of magicka utility, badly designed skills and irrelevant passives. Definitely not a model to copy design of other classes from.

Seraphayel · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , again, not sure what it can be compared to in PvP. Heavy DW bleed builds love using Rending Slashes spammable - it's cheaper than Surprise Attack. S&B / 2H builds (one of which I mostly run)? Pierce (1.5k stamina) or Claw (0.7k stamina) spammable. Sub assault? 2k stamina. Biting Jabs? 2.5k, 0.2k more than SA, but it's AOE like Sub Assault (and with a 70% snare attached). Two-handed with Dizzying Swing - maybe more expensive, upwards of 3k stamina, but I'm not sure who can land that thing.

And yes, it's just a good class design, where things synergize and work coherently as opposed to stamDK which is a pile of magicka utility, badly designed skills and irrelevant passives. Definitely not a model to copy design of other classes from.

Well then it's still a problem. I don't necessarily prefer a NB nerf, if they'd buff the other classes in that regard I'd very much favour it. But right now there seems to be a huge gap (it's been in the game for a too long time now) and when nerfing NB closes the gap I am content with it although it's not my prefered way of solving this issue.

There's a reason why Nightblade, especially in PvE, is so far ahead of all other classes. That shows that either NB are broken or all the other classes. At this point it's easier to fix NB than the other 4 (or soon 5) classes.

Kulvar · March 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

Kulvar wrote: »

No need to split numbers, because PvE and PvP need from you different things. That's why you don't have the same build for both.

That totally missed the point. Buff or nerf sth. in pvp and the balancing in PvE can be destroyed.

CAN, doesn't mean it'll. Also, perfect balance would be detrimental. An almost balanced with a bit of rock - paper - scissor is much better.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

Didn't he say he wasn't talking about PvE parses?

John_Falstaff · March 2019

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

Didn't he say he wasn't talking about PvE parses?

No. In the message I'm responding to, talk's about (illusion of) advantage in PvE:

Seraphayel wrote: »

<...>
There's a reason why Nightblade, especially in PvE, is so far ahead of all other classes. That shows that either NB are broken or all the other classes. At this point it's easier to fix NB than the other 4 (or soon 5) classes.

Seraphayel · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

No, you did not get it right. I was solely talking about Nightblades and in that regard most of the time just Stamblades. Pretty sure Stamblades are DPS wise still far ahead of Stamdens and Stamplars but maybe I'm not up to date. I mean the parses on the first page are nice but when I see Stamblades being able to achieve DPS beyond 75-80k which no other class seems able to do I would still call them too strong in that regard.

So again, buff the other classes to match NBs (harder to do) or nerf (Stam) NBs to match the other classes (easier to do). As I said, I prefer the harder version but we're talking about ZOS. They never go the harder way.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

No, you did not get it right. I was solely talking about Nightblades and in that regard most of the time just Stamblades. Pretty sure Stamblades are DPS wise still far ahead of Stamdens and Stamplars but maybe I'm not up to date.

Uff... is it really so difficult to just click '1' under the thread and move to the first page of this very discussion? I mean - all right, I'll just copy them from first page if it's too much trouble, it doesn't cost me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference between all three. And yes, that will scale, so they all will hit 75-80k dps. For heaven's sake, combat mechanics page has a video with 79.7k bow/bow stamden raid parse:

https://youtu.be/3jR7omMEMDw

Seriously, maybe it's worth getting up to date first and then judge about class balance. I mentioned inertia of thinking earlier in this thread, and this is a perfect example of it. Stamblades aren't ahead of all others for a good while already, but in people's minds they still are.

Iskiab · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seriously, maybe it's worth getting up to date first and then judge about class balance. I mentioned inertia of thinking earlier in this thread, and this is a perfect example of it. Stamblades aren't ahead of all others for a good while already, but in people's minds they still are.

This. I blame not having a proper combat log in the game. Instead of people complaining about real things they complain about dummy parses, and even then out of date information.

Not having a public log is just stupid. Keeping people in the dark about information on what’s going on around them has led to misinformed people. It’s a design flaw in the game.

Arkangeloski · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

No, you did not get it right. I was solely talking about Nightblades and in that regard most of the time just Stamblades. Pretty sure Stamblades are DPS wise still far ahead of Stamdens and Stamplars but maybe I'm not up to date.

Uff... is it really so difficult to just click '1' under the thread and move to the first page of this very discussion? I mean - all right, I'll just copy them from first page if it's too much trouble, it doesn't cost me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference between all three. And yes, that will scale, so they all will hit 75-80k dps. For heaven's sake, combat mechanics page has a video with 79.7k bow/bow stamden raid parse:

https://youtu.be/3jR7omMEMDw

Seriously, maybe it's worth getting up to date first and then judge about class balance. I mentioned inertia of thinking earlier in this thread, and this is a perfect example of it. Stamblades aren't ahead of all others for a good while already, but in people's minds they still are.

^^^ this... I think this discussion is over.

Onefrkncrzypope · March 2019

The difference in classes can also be how nights blades and plars and wardens all have percentage modifiers and the dk and Sorc do not. As the power was moved off of weapon damage Stam Sorc got weaker. As sustain and direct damage became the forfront of this game the dk was pushed out. The don't nerf the player change the game. Add sets for Stam and mag choices not universal sets. Ay is great but much stronger on classes that have crit modifiers(Templar and nightblade).

Y'all also need to stop going after classes and races first too. Like that should be the last change we scream for.

No one is super attached to sets. Anyone can get sets and not be put off more then some upgrade mats and oh no more time playing the game. Buff sets that would help the under performing classes.

SDK are good at dots. Hmm what will it take to get vma daggers to be great for only them again. Same with Stam sorcs and their strengths.

I'll take a quote from my civil engineering professor:

"If you have a troubled intersection:
1. Change signage
2. Add a stop sign
3. Add a light
4. Only after any other option has failed then go in and construct something. It's open heart surgery and you are rushed by thousands of angry commuters, politians, and weather."

Eso balance priority level should be like this:
1. Sets food options
2. Traits
3. Armor passives
4. Weapon and guild passives and skills
5. Champion points
6. Racial passives
7. Class skills and passives
I put class changes last because there is absolutely no ability to change classes currently. Yes there needs to be balance on that level but it should be buffs first not nerfs. It is time to help sorcs and dks though tbh.

Mintaka5 · March 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

As a magsorc aficionado, who plays both a stamblade and a magblade, I agree with OP, that the nightblade class is way overpowered, especially considering the huge DPS gap that it has. The class requires very little thought to play. It's basically fire off any random sequence of rotation, and you're guaranteed a 30K parse with minimal effort. I say this from experience, because both my nightblades do excessive amounts of damage without even a thought as to what I am doing with my rotation.

I feel the same way when I play my magsorc, no effort.

No way! Now you are gonna make me do a comparison parse. Screenshots on the way.

tactx · March 2019

Oh it's PVP again based nerf request without regard for pve per all the screenshots and "what killed me". Typical... Moving on...

TequilaFire · March 2019

Mintaka5 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Mintaka5 wrote: »

As a magsorc aficionado, who plays both a stamblade and a magblade, I agree with OP, that the nightblade class is way overpowered, especially considering the huge DPS gap that it has. The class requires very little thought to play. It's basically fire off any random sequence of rotation, and you're guaranteed a 30K parse with minimal effort. I say this from experience, because both my nightblades do excessive amounts of damage without even a thought as to what I am doing with my rotation.

I feel the same way when I play my magsorc, no effort.

No way! Now you are gonna make me do a comparison parse. Screenshots on the way.

Don't care about dummy parses unless you show damage to you as well dummy parses are useless for PvP.
I am talking about playability, my sorc makes me yawn.
My brawler stamplar and stamblade take more risk therefore less yawn.

Iskiab · March 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Don't care about dummy parses unless you show damage to you as well dummy parses are useless for PvP.
I am talking about playability, my sorc makes me yawn.
My brawler stamplar and stamblade take more risk therefore less yawn.

Dummy parses aren’t useless in pvp. It can be worth figuring out the best sources of damage.

Sorcs also aren’t necessarily boring, it’s all how you play.

TequilaFire · March 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Don't care about dummy parses unless you show damage to you as well dummy parses are useless for PvP.
I am talking about playability, my sorc makes me yawn.
My brawler stamplar and stamblade take more risk therefore less yawn.

Dummy parses aren’t useless in pvp. It can be worth figuring out the best sources of damage.

Sorcs also aren’t necessarily boring, it’s all how you play.

PvP isn't just about damage, it is also about survivability and positioning.
Whether something is boring or not is a personal preference.

hakan · March 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

No, you did not get it right. I was solely talking about Nightblades and in that regard most of the time just Stamblades. Pretty sure Stamblades are DPS wise still far ahead of Stamdens and Stamplars but maybe I'm not up to date.

Uff... is it really so difficult to just click '1' under the thread and move to the first page of this very discussion? I mean - all right, I'll just copy them from first page if it's too much trouble, it doesn't cost me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference between all three. And yes, that will scale, so they all will hit 75-80k dps. For heaven's sake, combat mechanics page has a video with 79.7k bow/bow stamden raid parse:

https://youtu.be/3jR7omMEMDw

Seriously, maybe it's worth getting up to date first and then judge about class balance. I mentioned inertia of thinking earlier in this thread, and this is a perfect example of it. Stamblades aren't ahead of all others for a good while already, but in people's minds they still are.

80k with bow bow warden? put that thing on your signature so maybe people will shut up now about nightblade parses.

Toc de Malsvi · March 2019

hakan wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Seraphayel , so you'd rather nerf stamblades, stamdens and stamplars rather than buff DKs and stamsorcs, did I get it right? Because there's no gap between first three, so you'll have to nerf all three of them to the level of clearly underperforming sorcs and DKs. And once again, just for reference, NB is not ahead of all other classes. See Liko's parses on the first page, I'm starting to get tired of pointing at them.

No, you did not get it right. I was solely talking about Nightblades and in that regard most of the time just Stamblades. Pretty sure Stamblades are DPS wise still far ahead of Stamdens and Stamplars but maybe I'm not up to date.

Uff... is it really so difficult to just click '1' under the thread and move to the first page of this very discussion? I mean - all right, I'll just copy them from first page if it's too much trouble, it doesn't cost me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0-QTbvzCPI&t=2s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQK-Y2_BSIM&t=62s

Vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f40QCN1JU&t=46s

1k dps difference between all three. And yes, that will scale, so they all will hit 75-80k dps. For heaven's sake, combat mechanics page has a video with 79.7k bow/bow stamden raid parse:

https://youtu.be/3jR7omMEMDw

Seriously, maybe it's worth getting up to date first and then judge about class balance. I mentioned inertia of thinking earlier in this thread, and this is a perfect example of it. Stamblades aren't ahead of all others for a good while already, but in people's minds they still are.

80k with bow bow warden? put that thing on your signature so maybe people will shut up now about nightblade parses.

Its more about taking advantage of the Shadow Silk Synergy than Bow/Bow. Similar numbers could have been reached last dlc, but no one wanted to throw Shadow Silk or stick stam ranged into trials.

Warband is nice but the big number jump came because someone decided to try and see what they could do with Shadow Silk and how they could best maximize it.

The Shadow Silk synergy is adding 10k dps to their parses without full trial buffs. All that changed with Shadow Silk was the minimum synergy range moved from 18m down to 12m.

Bow/Bow was only 2-3k behind melee, adding a 10k dps boost jumps them up over melee in most circumstances.

Murador178 · March 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Don't care about dummy parses unless you show damage to you as well dummy parses are useless for PvP.
I am talking about playability, my sorc makes me yawn.
My brawler stamplar and stamblade take more risk therefore less yawn.

Dummy parses aren’t useless in pvp. It can be worth figuring out the best sources of damage.

Sorcs also aren’t necessarily boring, it’s all how you play.

My PvP mSorc with twillight parses alot higher then stamblade if u want to take dummy parses as a reference of balance...

Haashhtaag · March 2019

Pve shouldn’t be based around dummy parses. It should be based on in content performance.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

@Toc de Malsvi , that was an example for those who still believe only stamblade can hit 75-80k raid-buffed.

Oh, and the latest in is 91.1k:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gYR-Af_z4

Remove damage from Trapping Webs synergy, and it's still 77.6k, and that's a bow/bow build. And if that's not enough to society of flat earth in this thread...

Melee stamden, 76k:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tM7hv7uWeo

Still not enough? Stamplar, 73.2k, and that's on console:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaRZvktxuG4

I'm not sure what the discussion is even about. After Murkmire people did their evaluations, stamdens and stamplars perform on par with stamblade.

I'm also not sure what kind of point people make of Major Resolve / Ward attached to Surprise Attack. Want to make a mental experiment? Take DK for example. Let's forget that SA needs a target for protection to be active (good luck finding a target to activate those buffs, I suppose, when you're spammed with Clench, Haunting Curse and whatnot). Actually, let's ignore that Hardened Armor even gives you those buffs; suppose NB has Resolve / Ward and DK doesn't. Now imagine that you're sitting at 10k health and you're hit for 5k damage before mitigation, then hit Vigor for 5k healing. Now stamblade with more mitigation ends up with 10k - (5k - 8% resolve / ward) + 5k = 10.4k health. DK sits at 10k - 5k + (5k + 12% Burning Heart passive) = 10.6k health. And that's assuming that DK isn't getting Resolve / Ward from hardened armor - which they do. As long as you have incoming healing (and you do, right?), 12% of it outweighs 8% mitigation, and surprise, DK has both, and without actually needing to do damage to activate them.

Basically, this thread is a parade of rusty superstitions. And people spend their time on a witch hunt instead of asking ZOS to do something with the sorry state of stamsorcs and stamDKs.

And @Iskiab , I think even combat log won't help. ^^ Sometimes people just can't let go of outdated notions.

Iskiab · March 2019

@John_Falstaff

Still think the game would be better if it had a log. Complaints would become at least semi-founded ones, but I’m sure they wouldn’t stop.

Most complaint threads are created by players in bad pve/pvp guilds. Their fellow guild leader or players enforce specs on players, or discriminate against classes because they think it’ll give them an advantage. Those players then run to the forums. You can’t stop people from being bad, but at least logs can arm people with evidence that the GM’s an idiot.

I’m every pve or pvp guild I’ve played in a hardcore setting it has ALWAYS been true that the players is more important than the class.