Seraphayel wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Placing the "so-so" answers as not negative is the exact reason why chefs/restaurant-owners on Nightmare Kitchens are so confused and offended when Gordon Ramsay yells at them instead of praising them. And the fact that you created the poll just drives that point home even better.

If you put your time, energy, and skills into something like baking a cake, cooking a meal, painting a painting, or creating a game; and then you show that masterpiece to your friends/customers/clients and they say, "meh.... It's alright. It's so-so..." You should know this is not a positive response. It is a negative response. Which is what a satisfaction poll is trying to determine. Any restaurant worth its salt receiving 3/5 stars on a customer review will not look at that and think, "Oh its not quite positive or negative! We did good!"

Edit: Tl;dr: The poll shows a majority as negative feedback. The "so-so" votes on a satisfaction poll should always be considered a negative response. It should always translate to: Needs Improvement.

It's quite hilarious that you complainers need the "some good, some bad" group to back up your claims that the changes are disliked by a majority. If you all think so, so be it.

To say that the poll shows a majority for negative feedback is still fake news. Might fit your narrative but doesn't translate to the poll results. Maybe we should create a poll with just two options "yes" or "no". But then trying to find arguments why the majority likes the changes and doesn't dislike them might be difficult.

Added the full portion of my comment that you quoted, so you know, you can read it again.
But, keep on deluding yourself with your confirmation bias!


Needs improvement =/= Satisfaction.

One cannot be satisfied if there is a need for improvement.

There are 10 races. If people are voting they are unhappy with 4-6 of 10 racial passives, this is a negative satisfaction vote.


If you are polling for customer satisfaction, any answer that does not express satisfaction is a negative. I don't know how much more clear this point can be made to you.

The poll shows that a minority of players (40%) like the changes. That is the important conclusion. You don't need to twist numbers to get that.

That is essentially the point I'm trying to make. Only 40% of the votes can be considered satisfied with the racial changes.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nevertheless, I still think it's very much an overreaction. Somehow reasonable? Understandable? Definitely! But the world will not end because of that yet some are acting like it will. I understand Bosmer frustration about losing the Stealth aspect of their race but best is to counter that with more arguments and less feels (I know it has been done already in the last weeks).

@Seraphayel

First things first : this thread asks if we are "happy" about the next changes. Happyness is a feeling. Not a fact, a feeling. So, I express my feelings about that patch, and I hate it. I've been playing many different MMOs over the past 17 years, and to make things as clear as possible I'll state it this way : this racial change to the Bosmers is the worst change I have ever experienced in all of my MMO history. And yes, that's how I feel about it, strictly personal and all that, I know.

Now, since you don't want feelings in a thread about how we feel, let's go for the facts. I've been explaining with a whole lot of arguments AND feels in every thread I could find that dealt with that matter, I guess one more time won't hurt, even though it's obviously pointless. Which is why I gave the short version last time I posted here. Trying to be heard and falling on deaf ears is getting tedious, and obviously useless as the patch will go as planned on Monday, effectively killing Bosmeri stealth bonus. Yet, once more, here goes nothing.


So, this is the ONLY change I am going to discuss here :

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m […] → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m.

Please note that I left out the previous damage bonus from stealth or the new speed bonus from dodge roll, or any other change whatsoever. I’m ONLY discussing the removal of stealth. I couldn't care less about dodge roll, bonus damage from stealth, whatever. For all I care, a damage reduction when drunk could replace the dodge roll or anything, I wouldn't care. I'm ONLY talking about stealth itself.


1 – Removing stealth goes against the lore

It might be weird to open a plead against stat changes with the lore, but it’s the Elder Scrolls we’re talking about here, not just any game. It’s one of the longest standing, most established game series, and certainly one with the richest and most beloved lore. So it does matter. Maybe not to everyone, but to some.

The Maths Team has been using the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from the Bosmers, saying « they are good hunters so they need to see stuff », and thus they want to replace a bonus to stealth by a bonus to stealth detection. But that doesn’t make sense, neither lore-wise not hunt-wise.

As someone pointed elsewhere, a hunter is stealthy. Bosmers are hunters out of necessity from the Green Pact. Animals don’t sneak around, hunters do. It’s all about remaining hidden while the prey is blissfully unaware of your presence. Bosmers are exceptionnal hunters because they are amazing archers, even sometimes credited to having invented the bow, and because no one and nothing knows they are there before they strike. That's stealth at its finest.

But let’s focus on the lore. I can only talk about what I know, and my first Elder Scrolls was Morrowind, back in 2002. So I can say that for every Elder Scrolls game since 2002, Bosmers have been known as stealthy and thieves. Others might confirm it was true even before that, but ever since 2002, they have had bonuses to stealth.

Morrowind ? Stealthy Bosmers. Oblivion ? Stealthy Bosmers. Skyrim ? Stealthy Bosmers. Elder Scrolls Online, at least up to early 2019, and hopefully much later on ? Stealthy Bosmers.

But this could just be game habits and tropes, so let’s look at the lore behind it :

- The Jaqspurs are elite scout troops and hunters ("words and philosophy" book in the Elder Scrolls games), and a scout is... Stealthy, yes. A scout that is seen isn't of much use.
- They are known as thieves ("Valenwood : a study"), to the point even a bosmer shopkeeper will be wary of another bosmer entering their shop. And thieves are stealthy.
- They are known to be very adept at hiding, at the very least in woodlands ("Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion" and "Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Wild Region").
- They are famous for their guerrila tactics, which require stealth. Couldn’t find the book that references it, though.
- Their most famous poem / epic is titled "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding"
- They do worship Baan Dar, the trickster spirit they borrowed from the Khajiits.
- And last but certainly not least, their most well-known rite is "the rite of theft".

And so on. Seriously, if one was to boil down Bosmers to 3 points, it would be that they are amazing archers, they are amazing at stealth, and they don't eat or even damage any plant. Stealth is integral to Bosmers.

So please, Maths Team, do not use the lore as an excuse to remove stealth from them, it doesn’t work. Stealth is probably even MORE a part of the Bosmers than even their hunting ability. They have « the rite of theft », not « the rite of hunt ».


2 – This change is entirely useless in PvE and only marginally useful in PvP

As per @ZOS_Gilliam ‘s own words, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!) ».

Indeed, there are exactly ZERO enemies in PvE that do sneak. None that I have ever encountered, at least, and I’ve been playing for almost 4 years now. The only times an enemy goes « sneaking » is when you meet a nightblade NPC that cloaks. So, in PvE, stealth detection is entirely useless, since nothing sneaks. Ever. As for the cloaking nightblade mob, you don’t need to detect stealth, since you KNOW they are coming at you while cloaked. You just need either an AoE damage or a timely block.

So, the new racial passive is absolutely, completely, entirely useless in PvE. And that’s made even worse by the fact that, aside from the insignificant +1% Alliance Point gain the Bretons have, there is no other racial passive that has no use in PvE.

As a PvE-only player, I am not pleased by a change that I percieved as only good for PvP, but others, more PvP-versed than I am, have commented that it is also useless in PvP. From what I understand, stealth detection is only marginally used in PvP, and having it on the Bosmers might even make things worse. One of the reported major annoyances I read about was the sniping sneaky bosmers archers. One of the most obvious ways to dispose of a sniper is to sneak upon them to backstab them, but this might be even more complicated if they see you coming even easier than before. But I really am not all that well versed in PvP, so I’ll let the experts discuss that point.

What I think about the ganking archer PvP "problem", though, is that within a week of the change gankers will have switched to Khajiit to make use of the crit bonus instead. Gankers gonna gank. This will solve nothing, but will hurt people who made use of stealth outside of PvP.

Whatever anyone's point of view on the PvP part may be, it’s pretty obvious that this change has no benefit in PvE whatsoever, which would make the Bosmers the ONLY race that has a significant racial trait that has no effect in PvE.


3 – Most racial changes are adjustments, this one is a fundamental change

I understand changes do come when a balance patch happens. And for most of them, those changes seem to be fair game. Some might not be well recieved, others could be debated, but they are adjustments. They don’t really break or remove something entirely.

For instance, I’m not overly fond of the Nord change that replaces a percentage of damage reduction by a flat amount of physical / spell resistance, but that’s merely because my own Nord stamina sorcerer tank already stacked enormous amounts of resists, and I would much rather have a percentage reduction to top it all… But that doesn’t break anything. It’s fairly simple to adapt, and it stays within the same philosophy. We could debate the Altmers now regenerating their lower ressource pool, which is kinda awkward, lore-wise, for instance, but it doesn't sudenly say "now Altmers will be hulking melee warriors on par with Nords and Orcs, screw magicka !".

Removing stealth from Bosmers, however, is a complete paradigm shift. The idea is that « races should all be unique », but… Really, why should they ? Lore-wise (again, I know), Khajiits and Bosmers have always been contenders for the title of the sneakiest thief. It’s part of their racial identity and has been for almost 3 decades.

But let’s leave the lore out, I’ve already discussed that point. Let’s talk gameplay. For the past years, people have been creating bosmers taking into account the fact they are stealthy. Could have been because they wanted to use it, or simply as « oh well, I’m not gonna use it, bummer, but Bosmers are cool », but it was taken into account. Assuming people created a Bosmer for what they bring to the table and not for the cool factor, it’s likely stealth was a desired characteristic.

By entirely removing the stealth bonus from a race, the Maths Team is likely removing the reason some characters were created, and giving free race change tokens to people isn’t going to fix that. Not with one or three tokens per account, and even if they were providing one token per character it wouldn’t fix the issue, because race change is a solution only for people who only care about stats and nothing else. That’s not everyone.

Minmaxers and highly competitive players might be willing to switch out of a race and into another in the blink of an eye to squeeze that 2% bonus damage or whatever, because that’s all they care about, but are they everyone ? Nope. Are they the majority ? I doubt it. One could think they are, based on forum activity, but let’s be realistic, most people NEVER come to the forums, especially the casual players. It took me over THREE YEARS to come here, and that was ONLY because the Maths team threatened my favorite gameplay to be taken away from my favorite character.

So, aside from people who play by the stats only, here’s what it feels like : people grow attached to their characters. They can get around a minor stat adjustment or an annoying quirck, but something unwanted that radically changes how their character plays is generally unwelcome. And of course, looks are part of the identity of a characters. It’s even more important after years of costume collecting, dyes unlocking and whatnot. Many people wouldn’t change their Bosmer into a Khajiit, not because Khajiits are ugly or whatever, but because it would break the character’s identity, the whole feel of playing it. Switching race is only fun if you WANT to do so, not if you have to do so to retain the same gameplay. And not changing race but losing a major part of your character identity nonetheless isn't fun either.

Removing stealth from the Bosmers means that, for a lot of people, their characters will have to change into something that feels entirely different, will have to change gameplay completely, or go to extreme lengths to retain the same gameplay (more about that below). And that is NOT fun.

Also, if the Maths Team talks about adding variety, I don’t see how encouraging people from 2 different races to play a single race will encourage variety.


4 – Stealth is part of the gameplay, don’t treat it as if it doesn’t exist

There is a huge contradiction in that update. One one side, « Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game », so they’re taking it away from the Bosmers, but on the other hand, they were initially boosting Khajiit’s stealth (don't know if that's still true, didn't care, I have no Khajiit and don't intend to have one). Doesn’t make much sense to me aside from the sheer will to force an artificial, stat-based-only difference between the two races, even though they do share this trait in the lore and have been sharing it in games for almost 3 decades. Stealth exists, stealth is part of the gameplay, and stealth is helluva fun

Stealth isn’t a major part of the gameplay, I’ll give you that. But it isn’t negligible either. There are TWO entire DLCs that revolve around sneaking, a huge amount of items that exist only to be stolen, and a whole justice system that benefits from being able to avoid being seen by the guards. There are achievements and housing items to unlock with said achievements that call for picking merchant lockboxes. So, it’s entirely possible that a Bosmer (or Khajiit) character was created with that in mind, to be a thief / assassin. I know mine was, at least.

Sure, stealth has no place in trials and most « end game » content, but… Does everyone focus on that ? I don’t think so. And even so, it’s entirely possible to have separate characters for different contents, for instance one really optimised character for competitive gameplay, and a stealthy little Bosmer for when you feel like picking pockets and are curious about what’s behind that locked door.

And even in « normal » gameplay, understand non-competitive PvE, stealth can be very useful, or just fun. Bit in a hurry but really need that skyshard ? Avoid all combat and stealth your way through the delve. Farming some gear that drops in overland zones ? Stealth your way to the delve / public dungeon boss. You can pickpocket easier. You can breeze through restricted area, heist, assassination missions and whatnot. This, of course, means a slightly less powerfull character in intense combat situations, but it is a gameplay choice that is available, and a pretty efficient one at that. If you have a bounty you can just sneak into town anyway. You can’t do all that without the +3 meters bonus. And that gameplay choice won’t be available anymore to Bosmers when the update goes live. Be Khajiit, or play entirely differently.

For a comparison, here is an exemple. I play a Bosmer stealthy character, and my wife plays a Breton stealthy character. We both use the same gear, one set that boosts our stealth by 2 more meters, and one that removes the movement penalty when sneaking. While she can sneak, I can sneak ALOT easier and better. I can come so close to a guard that I could scratch his back with the point of a short sword, but she can’t. If she comes this close, she’s caught. It doesn’t mean she can’t sneak around, but in many situations where my character can go undetected, hers can’t. Her current Breton character stealth abilities is tomorrow’s Bosmer stealth ability.

3 meters makes a HUGE difference in PvE, when you're sneaking about. There is currently no gear that gives such a high bonus. Stacking stealth gear, you can get +4 meters. If you want to retain mobility, you either have to be a vampire at stage 4, and / or a magblade. There is a set that removes stealth movement penalty, though, but it doesn't have a bonus to detection radius, meaning that by gear only, you get +4 meters OR +2 meters and no penalty.

When that change goes live, the only way to replicate that level of stealth with a Bosmer would be to be a magbalde and / or a vampire for the movement penalty, and TWO sets that give stealth radius bonus. And we'd still be short of a 1 meter bonus, still making stealth slightly more difficult. Also, those specific sets are stamina sets, effectively ruling out the magblade. As far as I remember, there is only one dropped set that gives that sort of stealth bonus in light armour. None craftable. That doesn’t leave much room for character customisation. Also, as stated before, character looks might matter, and being a vampire stuck on stage 4 to retain your gameplay might not appeal to everyone. Not even mentionning the drawbacks that inherently come with being a vampire.

A stamblade could use the skill morph that provides a bonus to stealth mobility, but seing this is a magicka ability, it would deal pretty low damage. I know, I've tested it. When my character is buffed, the stamina version of this skills has 10k damage on the description. The magicka version, still for my character, is about 3k, and does no longer apply a debuff to enemy resists. So, as I mentionend earlier, to retain stealth mobility, one would have to go to such extreme length as to gimp one of their best combat skills (combat not being the strongest point of a thief already). Or one could use that PvP skill that boosts speed, but you uncloak for a while when casting it. And that's also one less combat skill in the bars. So, to sum it up, lower stealth bonus, no mobility or even lower combat prowess.

Basically, when that change goes live, stealthy Bosmers are screwed. They will be left underperforming in stealth even though it's one of the most defining traits of the race, with no means to compensate by gear only. Either they will get to +4 meters bonus instead of +5 or +7, or +2 and retain mobility, or +4 and mobility IF they are a vampire or a magblade or chose to be even less efficient in combat. And that is if they go full sneaky. I fail to see where this adds any "choice value". Wanna sneak ? Be Khajiit.

This update will kill the fun of all casual player who merely enjoys stealing sh*t and escaping the law. Among other things


5 – How to avoid that problem

You get it by now, if you read everything up until here, I’m advocating for the complete removal of the new « Hunter’s Eye » increase to stealth detection, and for keeping the reduced stealth detection radius from « Stealthy » as it is. I’m not even talking about keeping the 10% bonus damage done in stealth. Change everything you wish, I don’t mind, so long as the stealth detection radius that has no use whatsoever doesn’t make it to live, and that the bonus to stealth is kept.

But… IF it goes live anyway… And obviously it will... At the very least they should provide us with another way to retain that bonus. Someone suggested that adding a stealth bonus to the Legerdemain skill line would allow to compensate, and that’s not a bad idea. I don’t know what other solution would be best. A Legerdemain bonus would certainly make stealth available to everyone, and that would be pretty nice too. But the simplest solution is to drop that ridiculous stealth detection bonus that, again, has no use whatsoever, and keep the stealth bonus as it is.

It's been stated somewhere that they are considering a way to retain stealth, but it won't be live on monday. For all we know, it may not be live before a year or two. Still, stealth is gonna be broken on monday. Break sh*t first, think of a repair "later", that's not good business practice. The proper thing to do would be to delay the racial changes until a proper way to deal with retaining stealth is found.

And to end with a personal feeling, I don't understand that ill-percieved need to differenciate races and make everything unique. We have almost 3 decades and 5 games worth of lore and gameplay advocating for stealthy Bosmers, and there is no need for that to change. Especially not after lots of people spent years building their characters around that. They really should reconsider.

I play 2 Imperials, 2 Bretons, and 1 Wood Elf -- So, overall, things are improving for me. My Imperial tanks/StamPvP characters are getting better sustain, and my Breton healer and MagDD are getting the same treatment. The Wood Elf changes are honestly disappointing, but I'm not sure what the race needs. It's got more stamina and a bit more sustain than last patch, I believe.

Uryel wrote: »

And so on. Seriously, if one was to boil down Bosmers to 3 points, it would be that they are amazing archers, they are amazing at stealth, and they don't eat or even damage any plant. Stealth is integral to Bosmers.

I'll quote a book from Daggerfall:

What do you call a Wood Elf who doesn't lie or cheat or steal?
A dead Wood Elf.

Uryel wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Ridiculous.... Role players talking about identity while referring to a bunch of skills and considering changes to be an insult to the players... You may complain when they change the models or sounds.

Ridiculous... Stat player not even understanding that stealth is a gameplay choice and not Roleplay. Also, "roleplaying" initially meant rolling dices and writing stats on a paper sheet with friends in your mom's basement, mate. Just saying.

Cool story, but I already knew that as I did roleplaying myself ten years ago . Btw. my "considering changes [...]" was not meant to refer to "role players" but to be a new category, so it should probably have been "role players talking about... [...] and people considering changes [...]". So, if you consider a developer changing a game to be an insult to players, then you probably better don't bother with computer games at all. Just saying

Letho2469 wrote: »

So, if you consider a developer changing a game to be an insult to players, then you probably better don't bother with computer games at all. Just saying

You go to a restaurant and order a specific meal. The waiter says "excellent choice, sir, this one is particularly tasty !", then proceeds to bring you the plate. You start eating ,and after one bite, the waiter takes your plate away and brings you something entirely different. Something you don't even like, and not even worth half the price of what you ordered. He still charges you for what you ordered.

But hey, at least you got a meal, so you probably shouldn't feel cheated, right ?

They are screwing up with the Bosmer thing. Really irritated. Deliberately made a Bosmer thief for the stealth. Khajiit does not fit that character so they have essentially destroyed it. There is nothing that can be done short of restoring the passive to what it was that will fix it.

Uryel wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

So, if you consider a developer changing a game to be an insult to players, then you probably better don't bother with computer games at all. Just saying

You go to a restaurant and order a specific meal. The waiter says "excellent choice, sir, this one is particularly tasty !", then proceeds to bring you the plate. You start eating ,and after one bite, the waiter takes your plate away and brings you something entirely different. Something you don't even like, and not even worth half the price of what you ordered. He still charges you for what you ordered.

But hey, at least you got a meal, so you probably shouldn't feel cheated, right ?

Yeah unless you ordered that plate several years ago, waited in that restaurant until it was rotten and still swallowed it, your comparison is absurd. You know why? Because you ordered nothing recently to begin with. And you have the free choice to not eat what you've ordered years ago and don't like anymore (oh but you've eaten it year after year until you realized it doesn't taste good anymore).

Oops, now I answered to that horrible comparison and made it even more absurd. Well nevermind. Tomorrow you'll either eat your meal or change the restaurant. Or you just make a scene and embarrass yourself in front of the other guests because your steak was one time medium instead of medium rare.

Well... OK, tell me, but honestly and objectively, without favouring any race or racial bias, Did ZOS fulfilled all their goals that they stated amongst every race we have in ESO ? Can you go and look at all of the 10 races and add a "✔" check mark to all of those points ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
"To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom. We wanted to expand the horizon for choice and present players with a self-reflecting question of “What is my playstyle or ideal build?”, providing options to help reach that individual answer. Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level."

1. Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
2. Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
3. Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
4. Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
5. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.

If they DID NOT, I honestly think they should not push those changes to the live server to meet the "deadline" and take their time, as much time as they can as it is technically not a "race" (no pun intended) and it would be wiser to test changes longer until they can actually put a big huge "✔" check mark to all their goals.

zyk wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

But hey, at least you got a meal, so you probably shouldn't feel cheated, right ?

The contemporary western citizen is increasingly only concerned about how things impact them. We know from history, this won't end well.

Calm down Carl Marx, it’s a video game.

If Vulcans were no longer smart, Trekkies would be rightfully upset. No ones talking about the fall of civilization geez.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

So, if you consider a developer changing a game to be an insult to players, then you probably better don't bother with computer games at all. Just saying

You go to a restaurant and order a specific meal. The waiter says "excellent choice, sir, this one is particularly tasty !", then proceeds to bring you the plate. You start eating ,and after one bite, the waiter takes your plate away and brings you something entirely different. Something you don't even like, and not even worth half the price of what you ordered. He still charges you for what you ordered.

But hey, at least you got a meal, so you probably shouldn't feel cheated, right ?

Yeah unless you ordered that plate several years ago, waited in that restaurant until it was rotten and still swallowed it, your comparison is absurd. You know why? Because you ordered nothing recently to begin with. And you have the free choice to not eat what you've ordered years ago and don't like anymore (oh but you've eaten it year after year until you realized it doesn't taste good anymore).

Oops, now I answered to that horrible comparison and made it even more absurd. Well nevermind. Tomorrow you'll either eat your meal or change the restaurant. Or you just make a scene and embarrass yourself in front of the other guests because your steak was one time medium instead of medium rare.

Except you won't be alone in starting a scene. Most of the guests will support you or join in themselves.