Narthalion wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

We're just talking about ~900 Stam/Magreg for free + 800 as Basicreg (with Pot CD on glyphes).

Uh...what? No. With 3 potion cooldown glyphs on 3 infused jewelry pieces, you can hit a potion every 21 seconds. Resourceful adds 4620 on Live, so 4620/21 = 220 per second, x2 to match recovery numbers you find on gear, 440 recovery added by the passive. Note that this will not be modified by any other boosts to your recovery.

This patch takes that added recovery down to 380, everything else above kept the same.

Or, you could take 3 arcane pieces of jewelry and put magicka recovery on them. That's 169x3, or 507 magicka recovery. Also 870x3 magicka, for 2610 more magicka in your pool. Unlike Resourceful, both of those will be further increased by any other modifiers you have.

So, no where near as powerful as you're portraying it to be. Yes, you're getting recovery on all three stats, and that's meaningful. Resourceful is a really good passive in PvP, nobody's disagreeing there, I think. If it needs to be nerfed further in order to get the overall balance right, then they should do that.

But now look at it from a PvE perspective. Pushing Resourceful to its fullest, you're still getting less magicka recovered from going all-out with potion cooldown than you would have if you'd just gone with magicka recovery glyphs. And if you're healing (or DPSing) the health and stamina recovered isn't going to mean much, and is likely to just over-heal or "over-restore".

So in PvE this passive isn't actually exciting enough to build around. Go ahead and nerf it, I say. Then give Argonians something that's compelling in both parts of the game, rather than the current Resourceful ball-and-chain that prevents the larger portion of the game's population (PvE players) from getting more to boost their performance in the standard tri-fecta of roles.

But I have no doubt you will continue with your "Argonian Master Race" ranting because some Argonian outlasted you in 1vX this one time, and blow off everything I just said.

Then you should calculate it the right way...say basreg is 800 ~160 reg/20%

I dont know the perfect numbers from the pots.

4000 + ~6000 from potion = 10k / 21 = 476 * 2 = 952 + 160 = 1112 /r on argonian

6000 / 21 = 285 *2 = 570 +160 = 730 without any race

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

Then you should calculate it the right way...say basreg is 800 ~160 reg/20%

I dont know the perfect numbers from the pots.

4000 + ~6000 from potion = 10k / 21 = 476 * 2 = 952 + 160 = 1112 /r on argonian

6000 / 21 = 285 *2 = 570 +160 = 730 without any race

I think I see what you're getting at, but I don't agree with your approach either. Also, isn't the base recovery 514 at CP 160? Don't know where you're getting 800 from. (Using https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351669/in-depth-resource-management-analysis-calculator-for-elder-scrolls-online-mw as my source for the 514 value).

Anyway, I just wanted to show relative values -- that the value of three arcane/m-recovery jewelry pieces is higher than what Resourceful adds to taking a potion. But you're right, I didn't factor in the extra you're getting from being able to drink a potion every 21 seconds, I only showed the math for the passive itself. I acknowledge that's a flaw with how I presented that.

I think the magicka recovery of an Essence of Health is 7582 (stealth posting at work so I can't log in to check).

So:
7582/45, x2 = 337
7582/21, x2 = 722

Which means, assuming all characters drink a potion as soon as they're able:
Argonian on Live, full potion CD setup, 722 + 440 = 1162
Argonian on PTS, full potion CD setup, 722 + 380 = 1102
Non-Argonian, ignoring all other bonuses, 3x magicka recovery glyphs, 337 + 507 = 844

But the problems with the above should be obvious. The non-Argonian does get bonuses on that recovery and it's wrong to ignore them. For sake of argument, let's say we're Altmer or Dunmer, since they get no racial bonuses to recovery (edit: on PTS, I mean). Also, I will leave out vampirism or class-specific bonuses.

A very modest recovery bonus is then Major Intellect (20%) + 5 light armor (20%) + CP passive (14%) for 54%. This changes the math above to:

Non-Argonian, including 54% recovery bonus, 3x magicka recovery glyphs, 337 + 781 = 1118
...where 781 comes from 507x1.54.

And don't forget the extra 2160 magicka the non-Argonian got from running arcane on those pieces instead of infused. That's not trivial.

So an Argonian running full potion CD gets roughly equivalent magicka compared to running magicka recovery glyphs, but also comes out with a base magicka pool that's 2160 smaller.

In PvP you might still make that trade because you're getting stamina too.
In PvE, you've made a mistake.

So I would again argue: if this is overpowered for PvP, nerf it. Maybe it's over-performing for tanks as well -- great, nerf it. But don't nerf PvE healers and DPS at the same time, as this passive is NOT over-performing for them. Rather, I find the reverse -- when I heal or DPS with my Argonian Sorc, Resourceful means little to me.

Live: 4620/45, x2 = 205
PTS: 4000/45, x2 = 178
...again keeping in mind, these are flat, unmodifiable values. One magicka recovery glyph, with minimal bonuses (169*1.54 = 260), is worth more.

And those are purely theoretical values based on the idea that you're actually down at least 12000 magicka at any given 45 second interval, which isn't always going to be the case. Whereas, a steady recovery needs only that much lower recovery amount to be missing every two seconds for you to get the full benefit. Plus, it's free, and doesn't require you to remember to activate it -- which, when the proverbial stuff is hitting the fan, is also not trivial.

So, I hold my position. It's good, but it's not THAT good, and it's creating an unbalanced situation - the common perception of which is almost certainly worse than the reality - that people like me and @Silver_Strider (if I can put words in your mouth for a second) find very unsatisfying and limiting.

Narthalion wrote: »

I think I see what you're getting at, but I don't agree with your approach either. Also, isn't the base recovery 514 at CP 160? Don't know where you're getting 800 from. (Using https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351669/in-depth-resource-management-analysis-calculator-for-elder-scrolls-online-mw as my source for the 514 value).

Anyway, I just wanted to show relative values -- that the value of three arcane/m-recovery jewelry pieces is higher than what Resourceful adds to taking a potion. But you're right, I didn't factor in the extra you're getting from being able to drink a potion every 21 seconds, I only showed the math for the passive itself. I acknowledge that's a flaw with how I presented that.

I think the magicka recovery of an Essence of Health is 7582 (stealth posting at work so I can't log in to check).

So:
7582/45, x2 = 337
7582/21, x2 = 722

Which means, assuming all characters drink a potion as soon as they're able:
Argonian on Live, full potion CD setup, 722 + 440 = 1162
Argonian on PTS, full potion CD setup, 722 + 380 = 1102
Non-Argonian, ignoring all other bonuses, 3x magicka recovery glyphs, 337 + 507 = 844

But the problems with the above should be obvious. The non-Argonian does get bonuses on that recovery and it's wrong to ignore them. For sake of argument, let's say we're Altmer or Dunmer, since they get no racial bonuses to recovery (edit: on PTS, I mean). Also, I will leave out vampirism or class-specific bonuses.

A very modest recovery bonus is then Major Intellect (20%) + 5 light armor (20%) + CP passive (14%) for 54%. This changes the math above to:

Non-Argonian, including 54% recovery bonus, 3x magicka recovery glyphs, 337 + 781 = 1118
...where 781 comes from 507x1.54.

And don't forget the extra 2160 magicka the non-Argonian got from running arcane on those pieces instead of infused. That's not trivial.

So an Argonian running full potion CD gets roughly equivalent magicka compared to running magicka recovery glyphs, but also comes out with a base magicka pool that's 2160 smaller.

In PvP you might still make that trade because you're getting stamina too.
In PvE, you've made a mistake.

Thats fine for me...dont worry about the 800 reg, it was just an example and i hadnt much time for research. But it doesnt really matter anyway, you will get this difference with all numbers. And i couldnt logged in at this time, too

Narthalion wrote: »

So I would again argue: if this is overpowered for PvP, nerf it. Maybe it's over-performing for tanks as well -- great, nerf it. But don't nerf PvE healers and DPS at the same time, as this passive is NOT over-performing for them. Rather, I find the reverse -- when I heal or DPS with my Argonian Sorc, Resourceful means little to me.

Live: 4620/45, x2 = 205
PTS: 4000/45, x2 = 178
...again keeping in mind, these are flat, unmodifiable values. One magicka recovery glyph, with minimal bonuses (169*1.54 = 260), is worth more.

No, they shouldnt. But i am ok with a switch. For example Resourceful restores ~3800 (should be calculated), and the fast healing ability would be replaced with 1000 stam/mag. This game has too much overall overheal. And a Max Resource Stat is not the problem for me or the other players, its just that difference between resourcefull and not resourcfull passiva.

Narthalion wrote: »

And those are purely theoretical values based on the idea that you're actually down at least 12000 magicka at any given 45 second interval, which isn't always going to be the case. Whereas, a steady recovery needs only that much lower recovery amount to be missing every two seconds for you to get the full benefit. Plus, it's free, and doesn't require you to remember to activate it -- which, when the proverbial stuff is hitting the fan, is also not trivial.

So, I hold my position. It's good, but it's not THAT good, and it's creating an unbalanced situation - the common perception of which is almost certainly worse than the reality - that people like me and @Silver_Strider (if I can put words in your mouth for a second) find very unsatisfying and limiting.

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Why would you pick Argonian if you cared so much about PvE DPS?

Either you like Argonian as a race and can deal with them being 2k DPS behind other races or you...

You see, that's where difference tells between people who play a roleplaying game and everyone else. ^^ See, if someone likes argonians and isn't ready to sacrifice their identity for 2k dps, it does not mean that they can quite deal with the loss of 2k dps. They'll still feel themselves handicapped at birth, they'll keep getting heat from meta-minded PvE community (the charms of game being both RPG and MMO), it'll keep taking away their enjoyment of the game because the game is both about playing a role and about competitive element. If game demands one to choose between identity and potential of how good they can be, it's not a good thing, and it's not as simple as you've put it.

This is utopia in a theme park MMORPG. In that regard we can make it about everything and nothing when someone is pleased or not. Classes, professions, equipment, whatever.

The game is there and you choose what you like. It's your choice, you cannot change the game. Change yourself, adapt or quit. It's that easy. I am playing Argonian myself by the way.

If you want to play an Argonian, do it and respect that they are a bit weaker for PvE DPS than other races but have other bonuses. If DPS matters more to you than your racial choice, don't pick Argonian. It's really that simple. If you reduce the game to competitiveness in DPS it's solely your fault when you're disappointed in the end because of your narrow mind.

That doesn't mean we have to be sycophants and act like we enjoy the changes. I find it particularly telling the way more than one longstanding Argonian player is smeared for being a race-swapper when this is not true of people involved. I find it telling that Argonian has spent most of its life in ESO as literally the worst race choice in the game up until relatively recently. I also find it telling that people seem to ignore the fact that many longstanding Argonian players are not married to the potion passive as necessity. My own personal suggestions years ago were something more along the lines of Guerrilla warfare. I don't have a suggestion because I feel like the theme is all over the place with Argonian. I've stated on many occasions that the attributes that Khajiit are given actually fairly well sum up what I would have expected they give to the Argonians years ago. Wild health regeneration and in fact wild regeneration in general is what I would have expected on an Argonian. They have been consistently an athletic and sneaky and agile race in the series. This is their theme. When they do involve themselves in magic it tends toward the Healing arts, Alchemy, Enchanting & Illusions. This is why I always felt Argonians should have had some kind of stealth advantage or athletic advantage and this never really surfaced. Argonians have also done extra melee damage in the past when unarmed in large part because they have claws and a tail. The damage was not as high as Khajiit however.

There is a lot going on with this discussion and I believe many of the main points are being glossed over and a straw man is being thrown up. The potion passive is very useful in pvp because it allows you to bounce back a bit from getting overwhelmed and doing so in unexpected ways. Those of a Damage-specification mindset get really frustrated when they think they have someone by the short and curlies only to discover their opponent had more juice in the tank. This is true of all damage dealing complainers on the forums though. The hatred toward tankiness is very real but it is also very one sided. These are similar problems and create similar results. I just want Argonian to be good and to be in theme. I like the thematic link toward their love of alchemy in their passives but I've never been fully convinced it should have been the entire focus of their passives.

Edit: P.S. I didn't include Acrobatics in there but I feel it should be also considered as part of Argonian repertoire. The usual suspects in thieves guilds are often Bosmer, Argonian, and Khajiit.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

No instantly getting back almost twice the amount of health, stamina and magica of tripots can be seriously overpowered.
Dont complain about it, Work around it. Theres always a way to make your racial passive pretty strong.... There are sets aout there that synergize very well with the potion passive+inused jewlery with potion cooldown.

1) The potion passive is ~52-53% of the value of a tri-stat pot. It's maybe double if you're using a CP50 pot but not for CP150 pots.
2) The Health restore is cut in half in PvP. 2k Health is a light attack's worth of health, not really gonna do much. Only a Tank in PvP can even use the damn tri-stat effect with any level of success since the health return is worthless, the offer resource restore is enough for 1-2 extra utility casts and the main resource restore just barely keeps up with a race that has natural resource restore, if even that.
3) CLEVER ALCHEMIST IS CRAP!!!!!!! I could get more sustain/damage by using those Infused Jewelry with Weapon/Spell Damage + Regen enchantments than Clever Alchemist can ever hope to match. It's a useless set and anyone that knows basic math will tell you the same damn thing.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And im also sure some people think this game only revolves around beating on 1 stationary target with 12 people or 15 min...... Argys will still stay BiS healers, on tanks people have other options now, argy will still be very good as a tank dont worry. Nothing much changed on the lizard

4) Less Sustain and Magic than a Breton means Argonian CANNOT be a BiS healer by default. It doesn't matter if my BoL heals for 20k or 200k, overhealing is overhealing but when you can sustain yourself better and can provide more utility in the form of more shards/orbs for the group as well as providing dealing more damage while still being fully capable of healing your group, Breton is the clear winner in every regard.
5) The bar for success on a Tank is ridiculously low. You could be a Tank on any race and have equal levels of success as an Argonian, Argonian was just brain dead easy to do as sustain was less of an issue. I also find it funny that you say there's options for Tank now, while completely glossing over the fact that Healer is now Breton dominated.
6) Lower sustain = Less potent in every single area of the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS, PvP performance all dropped because of this 1 change but couple it with the removal of Healing received, which hurts our PvP performance and Tanks even more, and we just become mediocre in every area of the game again.

Only thing they removed is healing taken. First agree that argonian is OP in PVP in live server. If not nothing to discuss further. Even now they're pretty strong in PVP but not cheese race anymore. Everyone who played argonian know they will be nerfed one day to be inline with other races. I don't bother to discuss with people who intentionally provide false information.

Orc replaces argonian as cheese race.Only thing that requires very serious discussion is Orc. Rest we can talk about minor adjustments.

They nerfed the potion passive for PvP and left the PvE side of things unbalanced. Argonian's performance in every aspect of the game was nerfed and are now suffering because of it. In PvP, being an Argonian meant trading away the damage of another race for more utility. That utility has been reduced substantially but nothing was added to help bring the damage portion up to par for those changes. THAT'S MY ISSUE!!! It has nothing to be with being the best at something but rather balancing off what Argonian lost by providing it with something to help it out in other ways, which did not happen.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

No instantly getting back almost twice the amount of health, stamina and magica of tripots can be seriously overpowered.
Dont complain about it, Work around it. Theres always a way to make your racial passive pretty strong.... There are sets aout there that synergize very well with the potion passive+inused jewlery with potion cooldown.

1) The potion passive is ~52-53% of the value of a tri-stat pot. It's maybe double if you're using a CP50 pot but not for CP150 pots.
2) The Health restore is cut in half in PvP. 2k Health is a light attack's worth of health, not really gonna do much. Only a Tank in PvP can even use the damn tri-stat effect with any level of success since the health return is worthless, the offer resource restore is enough for 1-2 extra utility casts and the main resource restore just barely keeps up with a race that has natural resource restore, if even that.
3) CLEVER ALCHEMIST IS CRAP!!!!!!! I could get more sustain/damage by using those Infused Jewelry with Weapon/Spell Damage + Regen enchantments than Clever Alchemist can ever hope to match. It's a useless set and anyone that knows basic math will tell you the same damn thing.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And im also sure some people think this game only revolves around beating on 1 stationary target with 12 people or 15 min...... Argys will still stay BiS healers, on tanks people have other options now, argy will still be very good as a tank dont worry. Nothing much changed on the lizard

4) Less Sustain and Magic than a Breton means Argonian CANNOT be a BiS healer by default. It doesn't matter if my BoL heals for 20k or 200k, overhealing is overhealing but when you can sustain yourself better and can provide more utility in the form of more shards/orbs for the group as well as providing dealing more damage while still being fully capable of healing your group, Breton is the clear winner in every regard.
5) The bar for success on a Tank is ridiculously low. You could be a Tank on any race and have equal levels of success as an Argonian, Argonian was just brain dead easy to do as sustain was less of an issue. I also find it funny that you say there's options for Tank now, while completely glossing over the fact that Healer is now Breton dominated.
6) Lower sustain = Less potent in every single area of the game. Tanking, Healing, DPS, PvP performance all dropped because of this 1 change but couple it with the removal of Healing received, which hurts our PvP performance and Tanks even more, and we just become mediocre in every area of the game again.

Seriously stop complaining lol. Me and my wife are imperial healers since launch of game and we have healed everything, so don't say you can't who cares if you are not the best at something. The fact is player skill> passives. We have 0 buffs at all from our imperial healers but yet we are fine so I think you will be.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the best tanks in the game is a khajit before this update again not bis but they have skill so it works.

Stop trying to be an elitist over fractions and just play the race you like. Yeah they could have did some more changes but then classes become way to op and argonians are one of those races due to pvp. There's a reason why you see a lot of argonians when you pvp right now on live

Your Imperial Healers got buffed by getting magic sustain and universal cost reduction to everything; Your race became better healers this patch than you've ever been before so how can you judge others when they got shafted? I never said you couldn't heal or Tank on any race. I said the exact opposite actually and said that, prior to these changes, anyone could Tank and be completely competitive. Competitive is the key word here, as in terms of Tanking, competitive gaming has now been removed from 8/10 Races by the buffs to Imperial and Nord, which is a problem in my eyes. Breton is the same for Healers as the extra sustain means Breton have provide more group utility with more frequent shard/orbs, Combat Prayer, etc usage than the next best race.

Have you actually spoken to any of those PvPers? Even on the forums, just talking with anyone that race changed into an Argonian for PvP purposes and most of them will tell you the same thing. They noticed a drop in damage and the "God Tier" potion passive has been overestimated. Those that deny this don't play Argonians and are just mimicking the words of Streamers that state this as some sort of fact, when in actuality the only thing that is powerful about it is the fact they abused sets like Fury to face tank everything and return the damage in kind, something anyone can do since those sets are OP. I personally don't give a damn about the potion passive. It's never made me feel stronger than another race because I got back some of my off-resources, if anything I felt handicapped because the off-resource did nothing for me in most situations. I'd always have to pop a potion just to try and keep up with races that already had that stat regen and any downtime meant my sustain was often worse than other races in any real PvP application. It was limited for builds designed solely to outlast your opponent, making it perfect for sets like Fury that built onto that mindset but not so much for anything else. Try running an Argonian Stamblade for a day and see if that passive saves you at all; I'd be willing to bet money that you melt just as quickly as any other race.

Lol you know I said I've been imperial for 5 years as a healer right? What I get now is 12% health, 10% stam and a stupid red diamond lolol. I can't take what you say seriously one bit because you clearly don't even know imperial. The nunbers have been run and imperial even with their new passives has less sastain than argonian.

I see argonian stam, tank, and magic all the time. They are everywhere. Are we even playing the same game? Or are you playing Tetris in your head while everyone else plays eso?

Argonians get 6% healing and potion passive while having 1000 magic that is way better than imperials 333 a tick while doing direct damage and it still won't equal what you have I didn't think it was hard to see the difference but I guess I needed to put them together for you to see the difference.

The order of best healers will be Breton with reduction and magic and recovery, and argonian with magic, potion passive for sustain, and 6% healing as the top 2 dunmer and altmir have no sustain they are not gonna be best healers. But again they will work just won't be for bis

And after 5 years, you're getting buffed. The 2k flat Stamina will be better than the 10% you currently get as a Healer, unless your Max Stamina SOMEHOW exceeds 20k on live, which I highly doubt it would. You also gained sustain via Red Diamond, something you didn't have before. Your Health really shouldn't be affected by the switch from 12% to 2k. I said you became better healers and you have in every single way with this patch. I never claimed that you were the best healers, only that you got better. You've also failed to mention the 3% cost reduction Imperial got to EVERYTHING. Blocking, dodging, Ultimates, everything is now cheaper on an Imperial which makes up the difference in Argonian and Imperial sustains, which is only 1k in a 45 second period and the cost reduction will far outstrip the potion passives sustain. Maybe it's you that needs to learn about Imperials, not me.

It's easy to identify an Argonian, they have tails for goodness sake, so so of course you'd notice them more often than something like a Breton or Imperial. Doesn't really mean anything about their performance in said roles. You said it yourself, Argonian is now only 2nd best healer race, despite having a passive totally devoted to healing only, while other races get passives that are universally more useful, resulting in them being on an almost equal level, if not better, than the one dedicated to the role. It's a balance issue and you clearly don't understand that.

Lol bro you are as high as a kite saying my 2k stam on my healer is a buff 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Their sustain has been tested and proven that it is worse than argonians. 3% cost reduction didn't make Breton best healer when they had that plus 12% max magic so where is your logic that our small sustain and 3% cost reduction is good? It's not even close lol.

Argonians have 1k max magic (pretty sure that's a buff from your 3% on live) you still get 6% healing and a good sustain can you share what your smoking with me bruh it must be good stuff

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

So you are crying because the top DPS is 6k better than you? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Now I'm crying laughing!

Ok, I'm done with you. You're troll obviously that can't be reasoned with at all. You choose to ignore race imbalanced and pass it off as though you know what tf you're talking about when in actuality, you couldn't grasp basic math when its plastered in front of you, step by step and given the answer to it.

Bro that chart you showed only thing that truely mattered out of the whole thing was argonians has weaker DPS due to it's passives but again if they buff argonians they get too op. You are only 4-6k behind the top DPS race that is actually very close and I'm pretty sure it is closer than how live currently is. You are still a top 3 tank and 2nd best healer so tell me if you were a top 3 DPS you don't see how that is op?

Nord is a bad DPS, bad healer, best tank but yet you don't see nords in this forum crying all day do you? All you argonians people that switched to it after it became so powerful are upset now but that's the problem is you are feels entitled to something your not.

Don't tell me I don't get numbers lol I get them just fine. It's you that isn't getting numbers. 2 healer, top 3 tank that is your role not damage. Just like imperial we get such "great sustain" and 2000 stam but yet we are worse off than a bosmer and all other stam DPS. But once again imperi is build for being a better tank.

One of the best tanks in the game has been khajit so you can play any race in any role you like. Player skill> CP/racials so just play what you like.

So many.people are gonna switch to orc and still lose to argonians, why? Because they aren't good and think the race makes them better almost like it's a crutch. So no I don't care about your argument because I see lizards all the time in pvp and I know just how much they can survive already it was long overdue for a change. Pvp isn't all about burst damage survival can win in long games.

I've been an Argonian since launch, back when the potion passive was a buff to the potion's effectiveness before 1.6 turned it into a 8% tri-stat restore and then buffed up to 12% in Thieves Guild before Morrowind made it the flat 4670 we have on Live. I'll even link you some of my posts from way back in the day that shows I've been playing Argonian since forever. I've never switched my race and I still won't so stop assuming I play Argonian because its OP.

I do in fact see Nords complaining on the forums. Have you not read any of @Daus post here on the forums complaining about Nords? Man's as adamant about Nords as I am about Argonians. Also, I didn't post that chart as it was clearly posted by a totally different user than me. It wasn't just about DPS, it also highlighted something else.

Imperial

These changes are feeling great for Imperial. Their sustain is just slightly find that Bosmer and Redguard and significantly better than that of Khajiit. The parses show how much their DPS improved. Though I specifically did not test this, I think based on the rest that using Lava Foot and Health enchants to get to 17K HP, Imperials will beat Redguard, Bosmer and Khajiit as DPS. They should be at least Argonian level on Magicka DPS too.

This implication alone puts Imperial on a better spot than 3 other races that are sustain based, while being on par with Argonian Magic, DESPITE not having any other Magic related passives.That alone proves your argument wrong because it shows that Imperials, despite being a top tier tank, is in fact doing better than half the DPS races in the game so you CLEARLY don't know the numbers, despite your best attempts to state otherwise.

The Tank role on Live is open to everyone. Anyone can be a Tank at a competitive level because the only goal is to remain alive and do as much group support as possible. No racial currently on Live provides group utility and all races can wear Alkosh/Ebon/etc. to provide all the group utility. Argonian has the easiest time for Tanking because of the potion passive but doesn't necessarily offer anything you can't overcome with player skill. That's balanced. On PTS however, this balanced has shifted in favor of Nords and Imperials that are now offering more frequent Warhorns, resulting in more group utility than all other races. That's not balanced.

The only thing factual about your post is the last part in which people that do actually race switch are only doing so because they believe it'll make them better but that's not what is being argued here. It's about balance, it's always been about balance. I give a damn about balance, its why I'm not happy about Argonians being shafted, about Altmer losing their Magic sustain, about Nord being only a Tank. I've commented on all these changes and then some because I want the game to be balanced so when people like you think I'm only in it because I'm some stupid meta chasing moron, I can't help but get a little offended because its just not true.

He's telling the truth. Long time Argonian player. I've been around since Beta myself and I'm familiar with him posting on the forums from the beginning. People are flinging a lot of lies that aren't even accurate. I play Argonians just because I like them. My number one character was an Imperial on ESO purely for thematic reasons. The whole notion of an imperial soldier attempting to rise up against the tyranny of the worm cult seemed really cool to me. The other reason I made Imperial number one 'achievement hunter' was that this was the first time in the series I actually liked their attributes and felt it would play reasonably well. It wasn't amazing but it was cool. Argonians have always had a special place for me though. My first character in Morrowind was an Argonian Monk and I loved the epic progression of that character from a lowly hated Argonian with class abilities that frankly were terrible to start out. It had a steep learning curve and felt particularly rewarding once the game was rounding toward the end. I play more than one Argonian character all of which I would consider among my main characters. Argonians are really cool.

The topic at hand though isn't theme here. The topic is whether or not the passives are balanced. Healing RECEIVED was the original bonus Argonians started with. I remember later on there was a push for Healing DONE because some players had serious reading comprehension issues. Later on they did a mix and now they're falling back to healing done. Healing done seems a little low when you compared to the output of other races though, and this is a problem. In the area that ZoS has determined Argonian would be strong (Healing and Tanking) they've nerfed both. They won't stand up against strong DD races, and they're not going to be top dog in damage or tanking any more either. Argonians have become rather gray and boring I fear at least from the perspective of the numbers. My question that I keep asking is whether the potion passive is the root of this problem. I'm biased in this because my original recommendation to ZoS years ago was that Argonians had a high regeneration attribute (Across the board). This is why I find it ironic that the Khajiit are the ones who get this. I don't mind the Khajiit though I actually like what they did with that race. I'm honestly not sure what the solution is but I do agree something is wrong and the way people are attacking @Silver_Strider strikes me as really unfair.

I totally agree. I know @Silver_Strider personally and we have had many a talk about what could be done with the game to improve it. Most, if not all, has been well thoughtout and it's honestly perplexing to see some many people be repellent of others who also has had good ideas for the game. It shameful that I see so many people completely disregard ideas without so much of thought of "Hmm. Maybe this could actually be decent."

I've also been an Argonian since beta and launch. I currently have 6 Argonian toons - 2 nbs, 3 wardens, and a templar. I played them cause I like the race, not cause of their passive cause in the beginning they were kinda trash. We have only been brought to the limelight with Morrowind and now we are being shadowed again by other races that can do things we do but better. I won't lie, it's depressing to finally be good and then have it ripped from us.

And I have agreed with a few other in this thread. For example, @Arciris was spot on imo.

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Narthalion wrote: »

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

We're just talking about ~900 Stam/Magreg for free + 800 as Basicreg (with Pot CD on glyphes).

Uh...what? No. With 3 potion cooldown glyphs on 3 infused jewelry pieces, you can hit a potion every 21 seconds. Resourceful adds 4620 on Live, so 4620/21 = 220 per second, x2 to match recovery numbers you find on gear, 440 recovery added by the passive. Note that this will not be modified by any other boosts to your recovery.

This patch takes that added recovery down to 380, everything else above kept the same.

Or, you could take 3 arcane pieces of jewelry and put magicka recovery on them. That's 169x3, or 507 magicka recovery. Also 870x3 magicka, for 2610 more magicka in your pool. Unlike Resourceful, both of those will be further increased by any other modifiers you have.

So, no where near as powerful as you're portraying it to be. Yes, you're getting recovery on all three stats, and that's meaningful. Resourceful is a really good passive in PvP, nobody's disagreeing there, I think. If it needs to be nerfed further in order to get the overall balance right, then they should do that.

But now look at it from a PvE perspective. Pushing Resourceful to its fullest, you're still getting less magicka recovered from going all-out with potion cooldown than you would have if you'd just gone with magicka recovery glyphs. And if you're healing (or DPSing) the health and stamina recovered isn't going to mean much, and is likely to just over-heal or "over-restore".

So in PvE this passive isn't actually exciting enough to build around. Go ahead and nerf it, I say. Then give Argonians something that's compelling in both parts of the game, rather than the current Resourceful ball-and-chain that prevents the larger portion of the game's population (PvE players) from getting more to boost their performance in the standard tri-fecta of roles.

But I have no doubt you will continue with your "Argonian Master Race" ranting because some Argonian outlasted you in 1vX this one time, and blow off everything I just said.

What a lie? Where's the tristat potion buffs? Liars. Its 900 recovery per resource. Argonian still needs serious nerf in PVP.

This guy is clearly troll guys.

Or he has some king of brain issue ( no offense)
To count potions to argonian passives is just stupid idea, or trying to add their 20% recovery to health/stamina/magicka "recovered" when potion is consumed.

All argonian get is 4k from resourceful which cannot be multiplied by anything in game. It can only be reduced by things like battle spirit (health on resourceful -50%)

Everything else you can run on ANY race.

Alpheu5 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Why would you pick Argonian if you cared so much about PvE DPS?

Either you like Argonian as a race and can deal with them being 2k DPS behind other races or you...

You see, that's where difference tells between people who play a roleplaying game and everyone else. ^^ See, if someone likes argonians and isn't ready to sacrifice their identity for 2k dps, it does not mean that they can quite deal with the loss of 2k dps. They'll still feel themselves handicapped at birth, they'll keep getting heat from meta-minded PvE community (the charms of game being both RPG and MMO), it'll keep taking away their enjoyment of the game because the game is both about playing a role and about competitive element. If game demands one to choose between identity and potential of how good they can be, it's not a good thing, and it's not as simple as you've put it.

This is utopia in a theme park MMORPG. In that regard we can make it about everything and nothing when someone is pleased or not. Classes, professions, equipment, whatever.

The game is there and you choose what you like. It's your choice, you cannot change the game. Change yourself, adapt or quit. It's that easy. I am playing Argonian myself by the way.

If you want to play an Argonian, do it and respect that they are a bit weaker for PvE DPS than other races but have other bonuses. If DPS matters more to you than your racial choice, don't pick Argonian. It's really that simple. If you reduce the game to competitiveness in DPS it's solely your fault when you're disappointed in the end because of your narrow mind.

That doesn't mean we have to be sycophants and act like we enjoy the changes. I find it particularly telling the way more than one longstanding Argonian player is smeared for being a race-swapper when this is not true of people involved.

This is exactly how I feel when I get rage tells in-game about being an Argonian petsorc, even though I started using the setup when the phrase "Argonian magsorc" was a joke and petsorcs were the laughing stock of Cyrodiil.

That's just a damn shame. I know how you feel. I remember back when Argonian was laughable my particular Argonian Nightblade had a stealth speed that was faster than max horse run speed. I can remember getting hate tells from people faulting me for playing the game the way it was designed. Worse still back at that time it was neither a good race nor a good class (I know that's hard for some people to remember). At any regard more and more people were doing the same thing and soon they just put the kabosh on the whole stealth speed thing. Don't let an ignoramus ruin your fun.

Hilarious looking at all the Argonian QQ cause they're not as OP now LMAO

The race with all healing done modifiers is last in dps? You don’t say, I never would have thought it.

The question is, why are you surprised or trying to play a pvp/healer/tank race for dps? If small differences are important to you then race change already.

Mudcrabber wrote: »

I'm resigned to switching to Khajiit, plus it's neat that they're even an option now. The 85 magicka recovery, plus 14% from CP, 10% vampirism, 20% from 5 pieces light armor, and 20% from major intellect grows to about 150 recovery, with smaller gains to health and stamina recovery.

150's very close to the ~178-equivalent recovery from drinking potions every 45 seconds, but always-on, minus the cost and effort

On average I think I'll gain about 3% dps and lose as much self-healing, and the sneak will be handy for other things.

And my passives will be slightly less useful in no-CP PvP where I don't play, so people won't be crying that they're OP because they died in a battleground.

You will lose ~2.5% healing.

Healers have bare minimum 45% crit chance in a raid setting (10% base 10% major prophecy 10% light armor 6% minor prophecy 9% perfect strike cp). 10% critical healing boost at 45% critical chance effectively increases your healing done by ~3.5%, just 2.5% shy of argonians 6% bonus. This is admittedly a little on the optimistic side because it assumes no other bonuses to critical damage/healing are being utilized.

You also lose 175 max mag, but if the differences between dunmer and altmer prove anything, this is a very negligible amount.

Argonians definitely need a boost, although I think this problem is only consequential of the broader problem of 2% healing done bonuses being far too weak as a standard 2-4 pc item set bonus.

This is evidenced by 2% healing done being outclassed by 129 spell damage in every way, including (ironically) healing done.

Math in this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461580/healing-done-is-broken-and-inconsistent#latest