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Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Altmers are going to be armwrestling champions
winning any competition in tamriel. Uesp and esowiki should rewrite Altmer lore description.
I am currently replaying Oblivion. And I have also done the Imperial Arena again.
The gamemaster always laughs when the enemy team sends Altmer into combat. He always says "Don't get hit by the spells and just get up close and give them a good swing !"
He probably wouldn't say that about ESO Altmer. They do not send spells your way, they give you a counter swing.
Don't need to swing. ESO Altmers could just run circles in the arena until the enemy team dies of exhaustion.
...oh.
Oooh!
OOOOOH!!!
I GOT IT!
This is actually a secret super buff for Cyrodiil!
As ZOS believe the stuck in combat bug is "vital" to ESO's gameplay, the stamina return will help us run from keep to keep faster! The cooldown aligns somewhat with casting Boundless! We'll be the fastest force around! OPOPOP! Get lost, old swift jewelry, here come the Maniac Marathon Mer!
\(>.<)/
TBH, Altmer has always been the fastest sprinting race in TESSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well Khajiit won’t be competitive mag dps now that they lost so much crit chance. The crit damage won’t do anything to help mag really, it’s a stam focused change. So all the people crying for them to get nerfed got their wish I guess1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Thank you for the numbers. As expected Bretons are ahead of Altmers, but the difference seems to be below 1k DPS. It's that 1 or 2 set bonus(es) they got more. But with less than 1% difference, it is not really significant.
The problem is: try yourself, Altmer with absorb magicka glyph and then Breton with berserker glyph. Dps difference is negligible but sustain difference is pretty noticeable, being much better on Breton. This is especially true for classes that have small in-built sustain like magsorc. No reason to pick Altmer.
I have to admit I am also slightly worried about PvP, b/c the magicka consumption tends to be higher there. But Bretons 3% cost reduction translates into roughly 600 to 700 Magicka Regen. Add to that the 100 Magicka Regen from the other passive and you will have 700 to 800 Magicka Regen. -> Bretons got about 5.5 Set Bonuses worth of racial passives in magicka regen & equivalents alone.
Altmers on the other hand got 258 Spell Damage and roughly 200 Stam Regen. -> Altmers got about 3.5 Set Bonuses.
The 2000 Max Magicka doesn't matter because both have races have it.
The 5% damage reduction is pretty much a templar-only thing. And the 2.3k to 4.6k spell resi pretty much beats it in almost every scenario. The difference in these 2 passives will never show on any parses.
So Bretons are 2 Set Bonuses ahead of Altmers - even more if you include those defensive passives that don't show in parses!
That's the problem. Even with the old passive, Breton still had a better kit. These Altmer nerfs have to be one of the most dumbfounding nerfs I've ever seen in a video game.
This does not make sense. If meaning the passives on live then Bretton is not one of the top two magicka races for DPS. Dunmer slightly outperforms High Elf so it becomes a choice between the two for slightly more damage or some sustain. Not sure how you can say Bretton has a better kit. If you are talking about some time long ago I still cannot recall Bretton being on top.
Bretton is the third but certainly gives up damage.
I'm not talking about live. Breton suck on live. I meant the Altmer's old passive from PTS 1.
The wording that "Breton still had a better kit" threw me off. Still scratch my head at what that means.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Altmers are going to be armwrestling champions winning any competition in tamriel. Uesp and esowiki should rewrite Altmer lore description.
I am currently replaying Oblivion. And I have also done the Imperial Arena again.
The gamemaster always laughs when the enemy team sends Altmer into combat. He always says "Don't get hit by the spells and just get up close and give them a good swing !"
He probably wouldn't say that about ESO Altmer. They do not send spells your way, they give you a counter swing.
Don't need to swing. ESO Altmers could just run circles in the arena until the enemy team dies of exhaustion.
...oh.
Oooh!
OOOOOH!!!
I GOT IT!
This is actually a secret super buff for Cyrodiil!
As ZOS believe the stuck in combat bug is "vital" to ESO's gameplay, the stamina return will help us run from keep to keep faster! The cooldown aligns somewhat with casting Boundless! We'll be the fastest force around! OPOPOP! Get lost, old swift jewelry, here come the Maniac Marathon Mer!
\(>.<)/
TBH, Altmer has always been the fastest sprinting race in TES
It's in the lore that they are "nimble". Interpret it however you like. For Oblivion (and Morrowind?) they were indeed the fastest. However, that was raw speed, not stam regen.
Sorry, I have to get back to marathon training!
0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »
Thank you for the numbers. As expected Bretons are ahead of Altmers, but the difference seems to be below 1k DPS. It's that 1 or 2 set bonus(es) they got more. But with less than 1% difference, it is not really significant.
The problem is: try yourself, Altmer with absorb magicka glyph and then Breton with berserker glyph. Dps difference is negligible but sustain difference is pretty noticeable, being much better on Breton. This is especially true for classes that have small in-built sustain like magsorc. No reason to pick Altmer.
I have to admit I am also slightly worried about PvP, b/c the magicka consumption tends to be higher there. But Bretons 3% cost reduction translates into roughly 600 to 700 Magicka Regen. Add to that the 100 Magicka Regen from the other passive and you will have 700 to 800 Magicka Regen. -> Bretons got about 5.5 Set Bonuses worth of racial passives in magicka regen & equivalents alone.
Altmers on the other hand got 258 Spell Damage and roughly 200 Stam Regen. -> Altmers got about 3.5 Set Bonuses.
The 2000 Max Magicka doesn't matter because both have races have it.
The 5% damage reduction is pretty much a templar-only thing. And the 2.3k to 4.6k spell resi pretty much beats it in almost every scenario. The difference in these 2 passives will never show on any parses.
So Bretons are 2 Set Bonuses ahead of Altmers - even more if you include those defensive passives that don't show in parses!
That's the problem. Even with the old passive, Breton still had a better kit. These Altmer nerfs have to be one of the most dumbfounding nerfs I've ever seen in a video game.
This does not make sense. If meaning the passives on live then Bretton is not one of the top two magicka races for DPS. Dunmer slightly outperforms High Elf so it becomes a choice between the two for slightly more damage or some sustain. Not sure how you can say Bretton has a better kit. If you are talking about some time long ago I still cannot recall Bretton being on top.
Bretton is the third but certainly gives up damage.
I'm not talking about live. Breton suck on live. I meant the Altmer's old passive from PTS 1.
Totally not the BIS race for healers or anything...EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
I dont believe that to be a true statement. If things went live today, I think you will see bretons and khajiits in raids. Time will tell, but it looks like Khajiit will have the highest standard deviation among parses (highs are higher and lows are lower), but in a raid where crit tends to scale very well, its hard to see how they dont come out on top in the absolute best raids.
The reality however is that logic probably applies to less than 50 people total in this game. For the vast majority of people, Breton is the clear best in slot. The damage is very consistent with other top DPS classes, but the sustain is SOOOO much better. That way you can run sustain glyph on your back bar in average/bad raids or when solo, and you can run a damage glyph if you know you support is on point.
There is literally no compelling reason to be an elf if damage is your goal. And since they have been meta for nearly 5 years now, and many people have chosen these races for that reason, this whole mess becomes transparent when viewed under the context of a cash grab...7 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
I dont believe that to be a true statement. If things went live today, I think you will see bretons and khajiits in raids. Time will tell, but it looks like Khajiit will have the highest standard deviation among parses (highs are higher and lows are lower), but in a raid where crit tends to scale very well, its hard to see how they dont come out on top in the absolute best raids.
The reality however is that logic probably applies to less than 50 people total in this game. For the vast majority of people, Breton is the clear best in slot. The damage is very consistent with other top DPS classes, but the sustain is SOOOO much better. That way you can run sustain glyph on your back bar in average/bad raids or when solo, and you can run a damage glyph if you know you support is on point.
There is literally no compelling reason to be an elf if damage is your goal. And since they have been meta for nearly 5 years now, and many people have chosen these races for that reason, this whole mess becomes transparent when viewed under the context of a cash grab...
Of course you will still see Bretons and Khajiits in raids. Just like I see them there on live. Most people don't care about squeezing every last DPS out of their toons or trials. And yes, that logic only applies to a very small percentage of the player base. But then again that small percentage of the player base would be the main target of this theoretical cash grab. Do you really think there are that many people out there who will need more than 3 race change tokens who are also not endgame score pushers?1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
I dont believe that to be a true statement. If things went live today, I think you will see bretons and khajiits in raids. Time will tell, but it looks like Khajiit will have the highest standard deviation among parses (highs are higher and lows are lower), but in a raid where crit tends to scale very well, its hard to see how they dont come out on top in the absolute best raids.
The reality however is that logic probably applies to less than 50 people total in this game. For the vast majority of people, Breton is the clear best in slot. The damage is very consistent with other top DPS classes, but the sustain is SOOOO much better. That way you can run sustain glyph on your back bar in average/bad raids or when solo, and you can run a damage glyph if you know you support is on point.
There is literally no compelling reason to be an elf if damage is your goal. And since they have been meta for nearly 5 years now, and many people have chosen these races for that reason, this whole mess becomes transparent when viewed under the context of a cash grab...
Of course you will still see Bretons and Khajiits in raids. Just like I see them there on live. Most people don't care about squeezing every last DPS out of their toons or trials. And yes, that logic only applies to a very small percentage of the player base. But then again that small percentage of the player base would be the main target of this theoretical cash grab. Do you really think there are that many people out there who will need more than 3 race change tokens who are also not endgame score pushers?
Well by "see in raids" i mean that is what most people are going to see on youtube when they watch people push score. Of course you see just about anything in raids that dont care about that. Heck jump in dungeon finder and you will likely see a Breton hybrid DPSing with a resto staff and a bow, but that is not terribly relevant to a balance discussion. One problem we have is that a lot of raid groups model their behavior after the likes of guilds like Hodor or MC, even if they arent at that level. Raid leaders set requirements and expectations based on what they see from the top. Whether that is right or wrong is a different debate, but it certainly is part of the game we all play.
As to the bold, actually, yes I do if I am being honest. There are a lot of people that fall into the category of wanting to min/max as much as possible, but arent really competing for score. The reality is that there are like 2-3 guilds at any given time on any given platform that are really pushing for the top spot, if that. I have been in those guilds in the past and certainly might be in the future, but I am currently not in one and havent been in a while. It doesnt mean I dont care about min/maxing as much as possible, because that is what I enjoy.
End of the day, people play this game for the enjoyment. If you enjoy making multiple toons and min/maxing them (race is a big part of that) and wake up on patch day and realilze you need to spend 36,000 crowns (cost of changing 12 toons after the 3 they give us) to continue to min/max, you would likely be pretty upset, and justifiably so.
From that point of view, this smells like a cash grab as virtually every meta race for a given spec is changed. I will fully concede that on paper, these changes are generally good ones and are healthy for balance overall. But it still comes as a cash grab based on how they are handling it.
Keep you darn race change tokens, just make race changes free for a short period of time and you wont here another word about it from me. If it is truly about balance, they should have no issue with this. If it is about money, well that's why drug dealers always give you the first one free. haha.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 11, 2019 10:56PM5 -
DarkPicture✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tankyEdited by DarkPicture on February 11, 2019 11:00PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes so now they can reduce Altmer magic down to 1875 to equalize them and Dunmer.Well Khajiit won’t be competitive mag dps now that they lost so much crit chance. The crit damage won’t do anything to help mag really, it’s a stam focused change. So all the people crying for them to get nerfed got their wish I guess
Its lore friendly, all the tears will make Cyrodil an rain forest
Fishing an Agonian out of an flooded river just outside Craglorn.Edited by zaria on February 11, 2019 11:02PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
That argument is tin foil hat worthy.
None of the races loses the capabilities in its former role. Most races get additional powers on top. There is basically no reason for anybody to race change.
I am someone who calls out ZOS for their laziness and cash grabs but the race changes ain't one. They offer you three free race changes for racial changes that are in most cases not even worth discussing. Do some races get better? Yes. Do some races get worse? Yes. Does the meta change or former top Magicka/Stamina races are not top Magicka/Stamina races anymore? No.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -3 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
That argument is tin foil hat worthy.
None of the races loses the capabilities in its former role. Most races get additional powers on top. There is basically no reason for anybody to race change.
I am someone who calls out ZOS for their laziness and cash grabs but the race changes ain't one. They offer you three free race changes for racial changes that are in most cases not even worth discussing. Do some races get better? Yes. Do some races get worse? Yes. Does the meta change or former top Magicka/Stamina races are not top Magicka/Stamina races anymore? No.
How dare ZOS put time and effort into reworking an old and stale part of the game. Corporate greed at its finest.
I sometimes wonder why these people are on the forums, when they are so sure that the game is out to get them, in everything the developers say or do.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
According to that logic any rebalancing would be a cash grab. You know most other game companies would not even have given us the 3 race change token (+ 3 name change token), right?
At the end of the day it seems you just ended up on the wrong side of this rebalancing and now you think ZOS is out to get you even though the vast majority of players are going to be fine with both the changes and the 3 tokens0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).0 -
Camb0Sl1ce✭✭✭Most of my magicka DDs are Breton, when i started the game at console launch i picked Breton because i prefer them not really knowing about the difference. When i started getting into endgame friends and guildies recommended i race changed but couldnt bring myself to do it as i had spent so much time on my sorc especially, tons of achievements over 5k hours played on it. I'm actually kind of excited for the changes now, bretons sustain will help them in a lot of situations but as some have said top groups have been and will continue to run beserker back bar as sustain is a non issue.1
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Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).
Well, there's the counterpoint that most of us "middle-level players" that keep getting brought up throughout the forums often have to deal with less-than-ideal setups for both dungeon and raid, so sometimes that sustain will be redundant and sometimes it will be vital.
That's why, for me, I don't really care if Altmer has higher raw damage or Breton has better sustain. I just think it's moronic that Altmer has a passive that regens stamina while Breton gets really high defensive bonuses that are all-around 1000% more useful. If the current PTS goes live i'll convert my two altmer to Bretons because I'm not in the kind of groups where I can rely on healers to use orbs or even actually heal me 100% of the time. When you take survival into account, Breton dominates.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
That argument is tin foil hat worthy.
None of the races loses the capabilities in its former role. Most races get additional powers on top. There is basically no reason for anybody to race change.
I am someone who calls out ZOS for their laziness and cash grabs but the race changes ain't one. They offer you three free race changes for racial changes that are in most cases not even worth discussing. Do some races get better? Yes. Do some races get worse? Yes. Does the meta change or former top Magicka/Stamina races are not top Magicka/Stamina races anymore? No.
Tell that to altmer and dunmer. Both have had damage and especially in the case of altmer, their sustain nerfed. They were meta DPS races, and there are now objectively better options.
Also, you know what ZOS does when they make sweeping changes to skills or passives? Do they hand out CS tokens? NO! they make them dirt cheap (effectively free) in game for a short amount of time. Seems like that would be the logical thing to do here.
What do they do instead? Offer a few for free, and put them on sale. That is by definition a cash grab.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
According to that logic any rebalancing would be a cash grab. You know most other game companies would not even have given us the 3 race change token (+ 3 name change token), right?
At the end of the day it seems you just ended up on the wrong side of this rebalancing and now you think ZOS is out to get you even though the vast majority of players are going to be fine with both the changes and the 3 tokens
@Ogou
So because I am in the minority (someone that has 15 toons and tries to min.max to the best of their ability), my opinion on this is not valid? I have been playing since beta. This is the first time a sweeping balance change has the potential to actually cost me money. Every other major change of this magnitude has been followed with an opportunity to make changes in game at relatively no cost.
Of course your average person doesnt care about this, and frankly, views it as a windfall. Most people didnt care about racial balance before, and they wont care about it after. But lets be honest, that's not whom we are balancing for anyway. This game is balanced around PVE scorepushers and PVP players that actually learned to play at some point, as it should be. Yes that is a narrow branch of the community, but they are the ones that care and they are the ones this affects the most.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 12, 2019 6:54PM3 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Even in PvP, why would you choose Altmer over Dunmer?
- Max stamina VS conditional stamregen is a matter of personal preference.
- Magicka difference is negligible.
- Spell damage is the same.
We are left with 5% mitigation while casting VS 2310 flame resistance and immunity to burning status effect.
This just sounds to me like a problem with altmer and dunmer being too similar as separate races.
They both have:
- around 2000 magicka (1875 in case of dunmer)
-258 spell damage
-marginal stamina utility (dunmer have 1875 max stam, altmer have stamina sustain)
What separates them is altmer having less damage while casting and dunmer getting fire resistance/immunity.
In order to fix this while at the same time maintaining balance, the off-stat sustain tool found on the altmer should be given to the dunmer to support their hybrid nature. Altmer should be given a magicka utility bonus that does not increase their raw damage and does not increase their sustain. This could be increased chance to apply status effects, as an example.
@Elric_Ashborn I believe this fix would put your concerns to rest, as well.
Detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latestEdited by twing1_ on February 12, 2019 6:55PM0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Tell that to altmer and dunmer. Both have had damage and especially in the case of altmer, their sustain nerfed. They were meta DPS races, and there are now objectively better options.
Which option is better? Breton, because of sustain? Look at the parses. Altmer is now with the Khajiit nerf most likely the top Magicka DPS. Breton has great sustain but lacks the power Altmer and Dunmer offer. All Magicka races are fine in their current iteration. Maybe Khajiit will fall down a bit due to the recent changes but Altmer and Dunmer are totally fine and still top picks for Magicka DPS.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).
Even with orbs/shards, you still need magicka absorb enchant or regen food.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 12, 2019 7:39PM0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).
Well, there's the counterpoint that most of us "middle-level players" that keep getting brought up throughout the forums often have to deal with less-than-ideal setups for both dungeon and raid, so sometimes that sustain will be redundant and sometimes it will be vital.
That's why, for me, I don't really care if Altmer has higher raw damage or Breton has better sustain. I just think it's moronic that Altmer has a passive that regens stamina while Breton gets really high defensive bonuses that are all-around 1000% more useful. If the current PTS goes live i'll convert my two altmer to Bretons because I'm not in the kind of groups where I can rely on healers to use orbs or even actually heal me 100% of the time. When you take survival into account, Breton dominates.
I was replying to a chain which pretty much started with the argument that there was no reason to ever choose Altmer over Breton. Altmer is far from being the only option but the devs made it clear that they wanted Altmer to have damage and Bretons to have the sustain so of course if you care more about sustain Breton would be the ideal choice for you. It does not mean Altmer are trash now.
Besides, the difference is minimal anyways so you're not losing much switching to Breton.0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
That argument is tin foil hat worthy.
None of the races loses the capabilities in its former role. Most races get additional powers on top. There is basically no reason for anybody to race change.
I am someone who calls out ZOS for their laziness and cash grabs but the race changes ain't one. They offer you three free race changes for racial changes that are in most cases not even worth discussing. Do some races get better? Yes. Do some races get worse? Yes. Does the meta change or former top Magicka/Stamina races are not top Magicka/Stamina races anymore? No.
Tell that to altmer and dunmer. Both have had damage and especially in the case of altmer, their sustain nerfed. They were meta DPS races, and there are now objectively better options.
Also, you know what ZOS does when they make sweeping changes to skills or passives? Do they hand out CS tokens? NO! they make them dirt cheap (effectively free) in game for a short amount of time. Seems like that would be the logical thing to do here.
What do they do instead? Offer a few for free, and put them on sale. That is by definition a cash grab.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Oh man, the cash grab argument... again?
Unless people are somehow given the opportunity to change every character they have for free, that argument is 100% valid.
News flash: it's perfectly possible for this to both be a good balance decision AND a cash grab. How they implement it will decide the later...
Edit: And if it wasn't a cash grab, race change tokens wouldnt have gone on sale immediately after they announced their plans to overhaul the passives.
According to that logic any rebalancing would be a cash grab. You know most other game companies would not even have given us the 3 race change token (+ 3 name change token), right?
At the end of the day it seems you just ended up on the wrong side of this rebalancing and now you think ZOS is out to get you even though the vast majority of players are going to be fine with both the changes and the 3 tokens
@Ogou
So because I am in the minority (someone that has 15 toons and tries to min.max to the best of their ability), my opinion on this is not valid? I have been playing since beta. This is the first time a sweeping balance change has the potential to actually cost me money. Every other major change of this magnitude has been followed with an opportunity to make changes in game at relatively no cost.
Of course your average person doesnt care about this, and frankly, views it as a windfall. Most people didnt care about racial balance before, and they wont care about it after. But lets be honest, that's not whom we are balancing for anyway. This game is balanced around PVE scorepushers and PVP players that actually learned to play at some point, as it should be. Yes that is a narrow branch of the community, but they are the ones that care and they are the ones this affects the most.
I never said your opinion was not valid. I only take an issue with you labelling the changes as a cash grab even though the difference in the races is so small and the percentage of people affected is so low (and that's the only context in which I mentioned you being part of a minority). If the changes were truly meant to be a cash grab then ZOS would make it so that they affect a larger number of the player base.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).
Well, there's the counterpoint that most of us "middle-level players" that keep getting brought up throughout the forums often have to deal with less-than-ideal setups for both dungeon and raid, so sometimes that sustain will be redundant and sometimes it will be vital.
That's why, for me, I don't really care if Altmer has higher raw damage or Breton has better sustain. I just think it's moronic that Altmer has a passive that regens stamina while Breton gets really high defensive bonuses that are all-around 1000% more useful. If the current PTS goes live i'll convert my two altmer to Bretons because I'm not in the kind of groups where I can rely on healers to use orbs or even actually heal me 100% of the time. When you take survival into account, Breton dominates.
I was replying to a chain which pretty much started with the argument that there was no reason to ever choose Altmer over Breton. Altmer is far from being the only option but the devs made it clear that they wanted Altmer to have damage and Bretons to have the sustain so of course if you care more about sustain Breton would be the ideal choice for you. It does not mean Altmer are trash now.
Besides, the difference is minimal anyways so you're not losing much switching to Breton.
Where I guess we differ is that not only are you not losing much, you are actually gaining IMO. The argument that sustain doesnt matter in a raid is not something I totally agree with. Of course a good raid helps, but Sustain matters in any raid that is not a perfectly executed score run. You die? Sustain matters. You miss an orb on cooldown? Sustain matters.
I fully agree that they actually did a very good job of balancing races in terms of target dummy DPS. The data shows it, and I dont have reason to disagree with it. That said, when one race makes sustain a non-issue and the race does nothing for it, the race with sustain becomes objectively better if the damage difference is trivial. If the patch went live today, and race changes were free, I would probably want to swap 5-6 toons over to Breton.
Said it before and I will say it again. Something can be both good for the health of the game AND a cash grab. They are not mutually exclusive. This is why I am advocating not for more tokens or other handouts, just the ability to make a free change for a short period of time once it goes live. Everybody wins. If you want to change, do so. If not then you weren't missing anything anyway.
As to whether its a cash grab, well here are the rough sequence of events:
They announce sweeping changes to races and immediately put tokens on sale. They then state they are going to give out 1 token free, and people rage on the forums. They then say they will give out 3 and also put them back on sale when they go live.
Sure the free tokens are better than nothing, but they clearly knew that what they planned to do was going to drive demand for a for a specific CS item. They then give a few of that said item for free and then put them at a modest discount. The line between generosity and greed is much smaller than most people think...Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 12, 2019 9:22PM1 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Because it’s a cash grabbed diguised as balance. They know that most serious end game players that min/max have multiple toons. For the most part for DPS they are altmer/Dunmer for magic and redguard for stamina. They want to force people to buy tokens and call it balance.
The 3 free ones are akin to a crack dealer giving the first one for free...
But Altmer are still the best in endgame raid situations since you don't have to worry about sustain.
They are not, u will see in progression guilds on magicka Bretons and Khajiits, there's no point to take altmer, they are useless. On stamina u will see Khajiits/Orcs, more sustain will let you on more option in builds.
As reguard where u dont need to do many heavy attacaks compare to other races. On nb/warden there is 0 heavy attacks with redguard race.
That is just not true. In an optimized raid group where sustain is not an issue Altmer can build for more damage than both Bretons and Khajiit.
In really optimized group u will play as stamblade so pls :P and Bretons still out dps altmer, if u will swap absorb on berserk u will have some sustain issue, so yea breton will dominating with 194 sd more and will be more tanky
I keep seeing this argument even though it makes no sense in most cases. If you're playing in a group (trials, dungeons, etc) sustain won't be an issue even with a berserk on the back bar thanks to shards/orbs. If you're playing solo in overland content then things die too fast for you to have sustain issues.
There's only 2 situations where you would be playing solo and your sustain would matter: Maelstrom Arena and on a target dummy (self buffed). In those 2 situations Breton will do better than Altmer but that's it. I don't know about you but I'd rather hit harder in trials and dungeons rather than on dummies.
In fact we have a similar situation on live right now between Altmer and Dunmer. Dunmer hits harder on single target but Altmer has better sustain. I'm going to let you guess which one was used more in trials (hint: @MLGProPlayer has been saying it in every thread he's been in).
Even with orbs/shards, you still need magicka absorb enchant or regen food.
Regen food barely even hurts your DPS, most builds already run it, and you can also get warhorn rotations between tank and healer outside of mechanics that need heal or shield ults.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Tell that to altmer and dunmer. Both have had damage and especially in the case of altmer, their sustain nerfed. They were meta DPS races, and there are now objectively better options.
Which option is better? Breton, because of sustain? Look at the parses. Altmer is now with the Khajiit nerf most likely the top Magicka DPS. Breton has great sustain but lacks the power Altmer and Dunmer offer. All Magicka races are fine in their current iteration. Maybe Khajiit will fall down a bit due to the recent changes but Altmer and Dunmer are totally fine and still top picks for Magicka DPS.
Again, parses only show half the picture. They don't tell you anything about survivability or the ability to perform under pressure. If nothing is hitting you and the target is stationary, you might get away with costs of 1500 to 2000 magicka per second. If the target is fighting back and is mobile you might face 4000 magicka per second ... at that point the difference in sustain will definitely show, despite parses claiming that both are equal.1
