Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?

LiquidPony · February 2019

Sebar80 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

Love it! Citing a Ben Shapiro favourite quote does not make your feelings to become facts.
If you want to be like him show actual facts, stats, parses or combat metrics statistics to prove your opponents are wrong do not talk about your feelings and pretend these are facts.

Actual facts were already shown in the parses being used as a reference and by simply reading the racials of altmers and bretons. Parses clearly show altmer parses being higher than breton parses even tho they couldnt use a berserker enchant. Difference would be higher if they could also use berserker enchant. Thats a fact. 2k magicka + 250 spell dmg gives more dmg than just 2k magicka. Thats also a fact and those facts indeed dont care about anyone's feelings.

Sebar80 wrote: »

Now, under certain circumstances you may be right and altmer will have higher dps than breton, as example Precursor Target Dummy 321.8K health parse. 6 milion dummy takes around 2 minutes and under this conditions Breton is better than altmer in dps department. The key question is which is more close to real fight boss fight situation a 6 sec burst parse or 2 minute 6mil dummy parse. My feeling (not a confirmed fact!) is 6 mil is more close to real boss fight.

No, altmers are ahead of bretons in the dmg department. Bretons are ahead in the sustain department. What type of encounter you are facing and which department it favors is a different discussion. There is a big difference between raw dmg output and fights in which sustain is important. Yes a 6mil is more close to real boss fights. I dont disagree with that. This doesnt mean that bretons as a race have more dmg output because they can compete in those fights. They can compete because that nature of the fight doesnt just revolve around raw dmg output but also sustain which is where bretons excel at. Therefore, bretons should be able to compete in those fights. The more irrelevant sustain is in a fight, the better altmers do. The more relevant sustain is in a fight the better bretons will do. Whether the meta revolves around the former or the latter, is irrelevant. Just because altmers are the dmg race it doesnt mean that they should do more dmg in every type of encounter. If altmers could do more dmg in fights where sustain is that much important then there would be naturally no reason to play a breton. What would be the point.

I dont like stamina on altmers any more than you do. I dont give a crap about lore and sh*t but stamina on altmers feels weird even to me. But Im not gonna sit here and spread misinformation about altmers not being the dmg race because someone cant even distinguish the difference between raw dmg output and sustained fights.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454547/dps-data-and-analysis-on-racial-passives-through-all-pts-cycles-updated-with-4-3-1-magplar-data/p1

This are the facts I am following, highly controlled and repeatable parses, yes altmer is slightly ahead of breton as for 4.3.1 and i am eagerly waiting for an update for 4.3.2 than we shall see...

Cool, altmer were slightly ahead of bretons. Just as dunmers were without sustain and worse stats than altmer. So logically altmer will still stay ahead according to those parses or at the very least compete even tho sustain in those parses was very important and couldnt use bi stat food like bretons. So i guess my arguments are indeed supported by facts, no?

Only as of 4.3.1, in 4.3.2 Altmer will lose 96mag regen per second.In 2 minute fight its equivalent of 11500 magica or 4 times in rotation use of spell symmetry. As i said before we shall see...

That assumes 100% uptime on the old Spell Recharge passive which is obviously not realistic. Depending on class and rotation it was often in the range of 70-80 magicka per second.

Steelshiv · February 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.

They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.

Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?

Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.

Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.

Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.

I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.

Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.

Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.

Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.

All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.

If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.

There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic

Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.

Not sure how long you've been here, but most extreme issues get ignored on the PTS even when a large amount of people make their case, spend time researching, make threads, etc. etc. If you don't believe me please go look at the Magicka Templar threads from Morrowind and onwards as an example.

Now to the OP:
I agree, Altmer needs to be given something to compensate properly for the removal of our sustain passive. Already, and this is from a PvP perspective because yes we need to discuss PvP as well, Altmer is behind on pretty much every magicka spec except Sorcerer. What I mean by this is that, sure, it's powerful on live as is, but when you take into account everything you need in PvP to survive and fight outnumbered, Altmer drifts to about third on the list for your top choice for magicka (I'm not discussing Sorcerer, Altmer is definitely the better race for it on live, even if I have always preferred my Dunmer). Top choices for PvPers right now would be Argonian, Breton, then Altmer. This is because Argonians are extremely tanky, can drop things like entropy on their bars and use spell power pots, and have superior stamina sustain for magicka. Bretons because of spell resist, and that's about it, really, on live. And Altmer doesn't offer anything to do with surviving, but at least could provide some sustain and some damage.

So while I do see the benefits of the stamina sustain, I still don't see the benefits of choosing Altmer over Argonian or Breton next patch in PvP. I main a Breton magicka warden currently and have for awhile now, and I'm excited for the changes to Breton, but looking at the Altmer changes is depressing.

I do think that Altmer should have to pick between damage and high sustain, but I don't see why all their sustain had to be taken away. The regen on Altmer is one of the biggest reasons to choose the race in the first place, and while they shouldn't have it all, that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least get a bit of sustain. I'm still pretty baffled. I just really hope they choose to reverse some of this nerf without trying to change everything else to "fall in line" with it.

Nicely put. In PvP at least, as a sorc, fights RARELY last less than 2-3 rotations of my skill bar. Altmer dont have an applicable sustain, have no innate resistances, and have a resource pool slightly larger than Breton. Because of this, and the fact that fights last a long time in PvP makes Breton the better Sorc race when compared to Altmer.

Its unfortunate. I personally don't want to change to Breton because Altmer got kneecapped by ZoS. I'd like to see Breton and Altmer (and Khajiit even) be equal but with different flavor. Breton sustain. Altmer damage. Khajiit have a little of both with a utility passive.

What we got this time:

Breton get huge sustain, Breton get spell resistance (which is doubled if there's a status effect applied which some weapons are guaranteed to inflict), a resource pool at the same level as Altmer, and a MASSIVE 7% reduction to Magicka abilities.

Altmer get the same decent Magicka resource pool, a conditional sustain that is situationally useful, an extra 258 spell damage.

A magsorc altmer would need to run more sustain sets which a Breton would not need as many of and could then stack two damage glyphs to SURPASS the Altmer racial damage buff.

Sorry about the rant. I'm just frustrated because the changes look like *** when thought about in practice and I really don't want to race change my Altmer sorc that I've grown attached to because ZoS hobbled Altmer.

Seraphayel · February 2019

Krayl wrote: »

For NB and Templar Khajiit is a better option. I can think of no reason I'd run an Altmer.

So when you have a big Altmer lore expansion one year, then the next launch a khajiit expansion and significally buff khajiit and nerf altmer. . .welp. "The optics aren't good".

Ah but Khajiit are able to sustain and their crit usually outperforms the raw spell damage? Uhm...

If you don't see a reason to play Altmer anymore, because you might be lacking behind <1%, use the free race change token you get and turn your Altmer into a Breton or Khajiit. Problem solved. But please don't complain if any of them gets adjusted a bit and Altmer comes ahead again. That's how it is and how it will be. This game is under constant change.

Zypheran · February 2019

Another way to look at this is that change is the new progression!
With CP increases gone and sets starting to top out, there is little reason to keep playing... especially if nothing changes.
But, with the new changes, people will re-roll rather than spend money on change tokens. People will start the grind all over again to develop a new toon to meet the new BiS configuration.
I actually don't mind this. I've done all the quests, levelled so many toons, completed all content. And now with CP advance taken away I was starting to look toward other games. But when the PTS finally came online and I got to try out my new Khajit magplar PVE build, I loved it. It was new and fresh so I jumped back on live, deleted some warden that was never gonna work and started a new Khajit toon with a play style built around crit.
For me personally, it brought some freshness and purpose back to the game. I have a purpose again when I log in... work on my new Khajit toon and enjoy the new content in the process. So yes, your current toon won't continue to be meta when the new DLC drops but if there is to be no more vertical progression, then I say embrace the change. It's a lot more interesting than being forced to play Altmer for another 4 years. And if you don't like it, don't worry cos it will probably be a different meta combo next year

Krayl · February 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

For NB and Templar Khajiit is a better option. I can think of no reason I'd run an Altmer.

So when you have a big Altmer lore expansion one year, then the next launch a khajiit expansion and significally buff khajiit and nerf altmer. . .welp. "The optics aren't good".

Ah but Khajiit are able to sustain and their crit usually outperforms the raw spell damage? Uhm...

If you don't see a reason to play Altmer anymore, because you might be lacking behind <1%, use the free race change token you get and turn your Altmer into a Breton or Khajiit. Problem solved. But please don't complain if any of them gets adjusted a bit and Altmer comes ahead again. That's how it is and how it will be. This game is under constant change.

I haven't complained about anything except for what most people are complaining about, and that is altmer being saddled with a mostly useless lore-nonsensical stamina regen passive that was until monday a useful magicka regen passive when things were looking fairly well balanced. it's a weird change.

I only play one Altmer anyways, a sorc, Altmer has never been my cup of tea. That doesn't mean that I'm disallowed from commenting about the direction of the game and this weird choice. It speaks to something fundamentally dysfunctional behind the scenes for the game I enjoy playing.

Otherwise I'm not complaining or lauding anything, I'm simply stating facts.

Masel · February 2019

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

Veinblood1965 · February 2019

Zos already posted about why they don't like Artmers in another thread. No need to start a new post.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2019

Title ^

Sorry to say that but that title (lowest magicka DPS) is currently being owned by Argonians.
(whatever you like it or not, Argonian is still a magicka focused race).

idk · February 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

No more critical, Khajit already have and it will be not unique buff.

Adding penetration will make Altmer over performing, best is to change Spell Charge, restoring 200 Magicka, 200 Stamina and gives 600 max Health.

penetration won't over-perform it will just let Altmers put their 20-something points into some other CP with vastly diminished returns.

1500 Penetration is 3% flat damage increase in PVE, with Tanks enchantments nerf this will be even more valuable.

Not sure how many will be dodge rolling every 3 seconds. Because if we are talking about giving the Dunmer passive to Altmer that is what would be required and I am pretty sure a good PvE magicka build cannot dodge roll every 3 seconds, not to mention there will be a delay of using sklls since we cannot use a skill while in a dodge roll.

chetter_hummin · February 2019

Altmer and dunmer are the best magicka dps races now in live. Change to altmer sustain was to make sure that they togheder with dunmer are the worst magicka dps races so cash will flow with race change tokens. Lore? A kajiit will hit harder than a high elf because cash reasons. complete non sense lore wise but screw it anyway!

Kolzki · February 2019

This thread really needs some parse comparisons to demonstrate where altmer sit.

Zathras · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

This entire thread revolves around one person. The same person made an identical thread in General Discussion. I think most people understand the changes, and like the balance. The actual hysteria is fairly limited, imho, and only seems larger because of the ..prolific.. posts of a very limited number of people.

sage2000 · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

Fact #1: in the testing that was done by several players and posted on these forums, Altmer were not over-performing in the first iteration of the racial changes.

Fact #2: despite Altmer not over-performing, and seemingly ignoring the testing that was shared, ZOS chose to nerf Altmer magicka sustain in the 2nd iteration of the racial changes.

So Altmer players have concerns about this. Not too surprising or hard to understand. Now here you come to poo-poo those concerns and basically tell people to STFU about it. Feedback like this is appropriate. It's how Argonian players got a portion of their nerfs rolled back, and it's how Orc players got a more favorable menu of changes for their race.

People are giving their feedback. It's your job to represent our concerns to ZOS, not to poo-poo them.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

There is one key difference between live and this new passives - in live some races are BiS because they have better synergy with meta builds. But you still can have non-meta build which will work better for your race % bonuses.
Since new stats are plain values, and not %, no matter which build is used, breton, khajiit and orc will be better anyway, simply because their plain stats are better.
So before there were meta-races and pvp/niche-races. Now it's only better races and inferior races.

Dracane · February 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

Love it! Citing a Ben Shapiro favourite quote does not make your feelings to become facts.
If you want to be like him show actual facts, stats, parses or combat metrics statistics to prove your opponents are wrong do not talk about your feelings and pretend these are facts.

Actual facts were already shown in the parses being used as a reference and by simply reading the racials of altmers and bretons. Parses clearly show altmer parses being higher than breton parses even tho they couldnt use a berserker enchant. Difference would be higher if they could also use berserker enchant. Thats a fact. 2k magicka + 250 spell dmg gives more dmg than just 2k magicka. Thats also a fact and those facts indeed dont care about anyone's feelings.

Sebar80 wrote: »

Now, under certain circumstances you may be right and altmer will have higher dps than breton, as example Precursor Target Dummy 321.8K health parse. 6 milion dummy takes around 2 minutes and under this conditions Breton is better than altmer in dps department. The key question is which is more close to real fight boss fight situation a 6 sec burst parse or 2 minute 6mil dummy parse. My feeling (not a confirmed fact!) is 6 mil is more close to real boss fight.

No, altmers are ahead of bretons in the dmg department. Bretons are ahead in the sustain department. What type of encounter you are facing and which department it favors is a different discussion. There is a big difference between raw dmg output and fights in which sustain is important. Yes a 6mil is more close to real boss fights. I dont disagree with that. This doesnt mean that bretons as a race have more dmg output because they can compete in those fights[. They can compete because that nature of the fight doesnt just revolve around raw dmg output but also sustain which is where bretons excel at. Therefore, bretons should be able to compete in those fights. The more irrelevant sustain is in a fight, the better altmers do. The more relevant sustain is in a fight the better bretons will do. Whether the meta revolves around the former or the latter, is irrelevant. Just because altmers are the dmg race it doesnt mean that they should do more dmg in every type of encounter. If altmers could do more dmg in fights where sustain is that much important then there would be naturally no reason to play a breton. What would be the point.

I dont like stamina on altmers any more than you do. I dont give a crap about lore and sh*t but stamina on altmers feels weird even to me. But Im not gonna sit here and spread misinformation about altmers not being the dmg race because someone cant even distinguish the difference between raw dmg output and sustained fights.

So basically, you are saying: Use Altmer for overland trash content against enemies with 100k health and Breton for everything serious that lasts more than 30 seconds. So why would anyone pick Altmer over Breton, when all the meaningful content in the game clearly favors Bretons ?

Lord_Eomer · February 2019

Dracane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

Love it! Citing a Ben Shapiro favourite quote does not make your feelings to become facts.
If you want to be like him show actual facts, stats, parses or combat metrics statistics to prove your opponents are wrong do not talk about your feelings and pretend these are facts.

Actual facts were already shown in the parses being used as a reference and by simply reading the racials of altmers and bretons. Parses clearly show altmer parses being higher than breton parses even tho they couldnt use a berserker enchant. Difference would be higher if they could also use berserker enchant. Thats a fact. 2k magicka + 250 spell dmg gives more dmg than just 2k magicka. Thats also a fact and those facts indeed dont care about anyone's feelings.

Sebar80 wrote: »

Now, under certain circumstances you may be right and altmer will have higher dps than breton, as example Precursor Target Dummy 321.8K health parse. 6 milion dummy takes around 2 minutes and under this conditions Breton is better than altmer in dps department. The key question is which is more close to real fight boss fight situation a 6 sec burst parse or 2 minute 6mil dummy parse. My feeling (not a confirmed fact!) is 6 mil is more close to real boss fight.

No, altmers are ahead of bretons in the dmg department. Bretons are ahead in the sustain department. What type of encounter you are facing and which department it favors is a different discussion. There is a big difference between raw dmg output and fights in which sustain is important. Yes a 6mil is more close to real boss fights. I dont disagree with that. This doesnt mean that bretons as a race have more dmg output because they can compete in those fights[. They can compete because that nature of the fight doesnt just revolve around raw dmg output but also sustain which is where bretons excel at. Therefore, bretons should be able to compete in those fights. The more irrelevant sustain is in a fight, the better altmers do. The more relevant sustain is in a fight the better bretons will do. Whether the meta revolves around the former or the latter, is irrelevant. Just because altmers are the dmg race it doesnt mean that they should do more dmg in every type of encounter. If altmers could do more dmg in fights where sustain is that much important then there would be naturally no reason to play a breton. What would be the point.

I dont like stamina on altmers any more than you do. I dont give a crap about lore and sh*t but stamina on altmers feels weird even to me. But Im not gonna sit here and spread misinformation about altmers not being the dmg race because someone cant even distinguish the difference between raw dmg output and sustained fights.

So basically, you are saying: Use Altmer for overland trash content against enemies with 100k health and Breton for everything serious that lasts more than 30 seconds. So why would anyone pick Altmer over Breton, when all the meaningful content in the game clearly favors Bretons ?

You are saying you can not sustain without 9% magicka recovery?

Many high elves previously not vamipre can easily grab 10% recovery. Everyone can sustain but just trying to react hard..

So for 1 minute fight are you preferring more sustainbinstead of damage?

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

pieratsos · February 2019

Dracane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

Love it! Citing a Ben Shapiro favourite quote does not make your feelings to become facts.
If you want to be like him show actual facts, stats, parses or combat metrics statistics to prove your opponents are wrong do not talk about your feelings and pretend these are facts.

Actual facts were already shown in the parses being used as a reference and by simply reading the racials of altmers and bretons. Parses clearly show altmer parses being higher than breton parses even tho they couldnt use a berserker enchant. Difference would be higher if they could also use berserker enchant. Thats a fact. 2k magicka + 250 spell dmg gives more dmg than just 2k magicka. Thats also a fact and those facts indeed dont care about anyone's feelings.

Sebar80 wrote: »

Now, under certain circumstances you may be right and altmer will have higher dps than breton, as example Precursor Target Dummy 321.8K health parse. 6 milion dummy takes around 2 minutes and under this conditions Breton is better than altmer in dps department. The key question is which is more close to real fight boss fight situation a 6 sec burst parse or 2 minute 6mil dummy parse. My feeling (not a confirmed fact!) is 6 mil is more close to real boss fight.

No, altmers are ahead of bretons in the dmg department. Bretons are ahead in the sustain department. What type of encounter you are facing and which department it favors is a different discussion. There is a big difference between raw dmg output and fights in which sustain is important. Yes a 6mil is more close to real boss fights. I dont disagree with that. This doesnt mean that bretons as a race have more dmg output because they can compete in those fights[. They can compete because that nature of the fight doesnt just revolve around raw dmg output but also sustain which is where bretons excel at. Therefore, bretons should be able to compete in those fights. The more irrelevant sustain is in a fight, the better altmers do. The more relevant sustain is in a fight the better bretons will do. Whether the meta revolves around the former or the latter, is irrelevant. Just because altmers are the dmg race it doesnt mean that they should do more dmg in every type of encounter. If altmers could do more dmg in fights where sustain is that much important then there would be naturally no reason to play a breton. What would be the point.

I dont like stamina on altmers any more than you do. I dont give a crap about lore and sh*t but stamina on altmers feels weird even to me. But Im not gonna sit here and spread misinformation about altmers not being the dmg race because someone cant even distinguish the difference between raw dmg output and sustained fights.

So basically, you are saying: Use Altmer for overland trash content against enemies with 100k health and Breton for everything serious that lasts more than 30 seconds. So why would anyone pick Altmer over Breton, when all the meaningful content in the game clearly favors Bretons ?

No, what I'm saying is that in terms of raw dmg altmer is ahead and you can't dispute that. What I'm also saying is that in the parses being used as a reference altmer are actually parsing higher than btetons even tho altmer weren't even running a berserker enchant. Now, if the fights require so much god damn sustain to the point were bretons come ahead, well it doesnt seem really bad cause that's the whole freaking point of their racial.

But this whole thing about altmers going back and being useless seems to be an overexaggeration to say the least. If you look at the parses again dunmers were competing and also parsing higher than bretons. Altmer is statistically impossible to do worse than that.

You could put it like this. Sustain fights bretons sort of win because of consistency but altmers are still competing. Damage fights were sustain isn't restrictive to ur build then Altmer flat out wins and bretons can't compete.

That sounds balance to me considering their racials. If what you want is "Altmer should out DPS everyone in every single situation" then I'm afraid you do not really want balance.

Dracane · February 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sebar80 wrote: »

Love it! Citing a Ben Shapiro favourite quote does not make your feelings to become facts.
If you want to be like him show actual facts, stats, parses or combat metrics statistics to prove your opponents are wrong do not talk about your feelings and pretend these are facts.

Actual facts were already shown in the parses being used as a reference and by simply reading the racials of altmers and bretons. Parses clearly show altmer parses being higher than breton parses even tho they couldnt use a berserker enchant. Difference would be higher if they could also use berserker enchant. Thats a fact. 2k magicka + 250 spell dmg gives more dmg than just 2k magicka. Thats also a fact and those facts indeed dont care about anyone's feelings.

Sebar80 wrote: »

Now, under certain circumstances you may be right and altmer will have higher dps than breton, as example Precursor Target Dummy 321.8K health parse. 6 milion dummy takes around 2 minutes and under this conditions Breton is better than altmer in dps department. The key question is which is more close to real fight boss fight situation a 6 sec burst parse or 2 minute 6mil dummy parse. My feeling (not a confirmed fact!) is 6 mil is more close to real boss fight.

No, altmers are ahead of bretons in the dmg department. Bretons are ahead in the sustain department. What type of encounter you are facing and which department it favors is a different discussion. There is a big difference between raw dmg output and fights in which sustain is important. Yes a 6mil is more close to real boss fights. I dont disagree with that. This doesnt mean that bretons as a race have more dmg output because they can compete in those fights[. They can compete because that nature of the fight doesnt just revolve around raw dmg output but also sustain which is where bretons excel at. Therefore, bretons should be able to compete in those fights. The more irrelevant sustain is in a fight, the better altmers do. The more relevant sustain is in a fight the better bretons will do. Whether the meta revolves around the former or the latter, is irrelevant. Just because altmers are the dmg race it doesnt mean that they should do more dmg in every type of encounter. If altmers could do more dmg in fights where sustain is that much important then there would be naturally no reason to play a breton. What would be the point.

I dont like stamina on altmers any more than you do. I dont give a crap about lore and sh*t but stamina on altmers feels weird even to me. But Im not gonna sit here and spread misinformation about altmers not being the dmg race because someone cant even distinguish the difference between raw dmg output and sustained fights.

So basically, you are saying: Use Altmer for overland trash content against enemies with 100k health and Breton for everything serious that lasts more than 30 seconds. So why would anyone pick Altmer over Breton, when all the meaningful content in the game clearly favors Bretons ?

You are saying you can not sustain without 9% magicka recovery?

Many high elves previously not vamipre can easily grab 10% recovery. Everyone can sustain but just trying to react hard..

So for 1 minute fight are you preferring more sustainbinstead of damage?

No, I'm not saying that. The 9% magicka regeneration won't be missed.
I was just mocking the person who I quoted here.

Or I should say, I was mocking their statement. I would not want to harm my piratesos. ^^

Seraphayel · February 2019

Krayl wrote: »

I only play one Altmer anyways, a sorc, Altmer has never been my cup of tea. That doesn't mean that I'm disallowed from commenting about the direction of the game and this weird choice. It speaks to something fundamentally dysfunctional behind the scenes for the game I enjoy playing.

Otherwise I'm not complaining or lauding anything, I'm simply stating facts.

Fundamentally dysfunctional because Altmer got a more PvP oriented passive that focuses on Stamina?

Just because you might not like it (because it's not Magicka) it's far from being "dysfunctional".

Honestly, I never expected racial balance this good from ZOS but they achieved it. All races tailored towards their respective "metas" (Stamina/Magicka/Health/Hybrid) are mostly on par and excellent in their own regards. Some might need little tweaks but Altmer isn't one of them. ZOS has done something I never expected them to finally achieve in 5 years. Balance.

pieratsos · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

It's not, Dunmer is. lol

The difference between them is virtually non-existent now. They're both in the gutter.

But there is a difference making your statement incorrect. Also, Bretton, iirc, is even lower. It is the sustain race.

Granted, I think the change made this week is very odd.

Breton has more spell damage with Bersekrer enchant.

And if you can run berserker enchant on altmer then altmer has more spell dmg. If you are going to compare their passives then compare their passives. Bringing in other factors is irrelevant with their passives. Bretons are not ahead altmers in dmg. They are just more consistent because they have sustain and if the fight requires sustain that altmers don't have they may fall behind. But in terms of raw dmg output in identical setups, altmer is ahead of Breton.

If you can't sustain that is a loss of damage, your point is ridiculous because it doesn;t take in account real situations, but rather the hypothetical, what if.

What if altmer has just as much sustain, or what if the fight doesn't last long, therefore you have no sustain problems, then they would be ahead, but as a matter of fact they are not wehn you take in account any fight that is not roflstomp easy, so if you are not gonna try to judge things fairly, just shut it.

If the magicka races were relatively well balanced before, now with the nerf, altmer will surely go below by quite a margin.

If you are not gonna read properly what im writing then you are the one who needs to shut it. Go back and read again.
Im not using any hypothetical situations. Im using real situations and if real situations require sustain then the race that revolves around sustain should be able to compete. It really isnt such a hard concept to grasp. In terms of raw dmg output however altmers are ahead. Period. And even in parses were sustain matters and should therefore favour bretons, altmers still have higher parse numbers. (higher parse number is not the same as average DPS from multiple parses)

There is no hypothetical scenario here. There is only context.

You are ignoring context.

You are the one ignoring context because you cant properly read the parses. The parses are a general guideline of performance and how well balanced are the races between them in a specific scenario. Not an indicator of who is doing more deeps in all situations. You read the parses and took those numbers out of context because you cant properly read them for what they are and started singing "altmer useless in all content" even tho the parses indicate the exact opposite.

Fun fact, in the other thread showing parses in actually a lot more controlled environment, altmers were ahead of breton even tho sustain was still restrictive to their build and judging by the performance of dunmer with less magicka and no sustain, altmers will still stay ahead of breton after the nerf. But of course you are not gonna talk about that cause i guess it doesnt fit ur argument. So basically not only you are taking those parses out of context, you are also selective in which one to take into account cause even in the context you are using them for, they are still proving the exact opposite of what you are saying.

idk · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

In a thread created with the hysteria, and incorrect information, what do you expect? But yes, I agree. (though I do find some changes a little odd like this weeks high elf change).

zaria · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

The problem I see is why make an Altmer then you has Dunmer outside of the look, yes it has 150 less magic, extra stamina who is handy, might well be more useful in pvp than the Altmer sustain on magic build.
And you can convert class to stamina if meta changes or you are bored.

Seraphayel · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

The problem I see is why make an Altmer then you has Dunmer outside of the look, yes it has 150 less magic, extra stamina who is handy, might well be more useful in pvp than the Altmer sustain on magic build.
And you can convert class to stamina if meta changes or you are bored.

I think that's more of a Dunmer and less of an Altmer problem. I think giving them 1850 for Stamina and Magicka is too much. I'd reduce both to 1500 each or at least Stamina to just 1250 or even 1000.

Masel · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

So much hysteria in these threads, let's all calm down and not exaggerate how much impact these changes will have on actual gameplay... And the balance is better than it ever was...

There is one key difference between live and this new passives - in live some races are BiS because they have better synergy with meta builds. But you still can have non-meta build which will work better for your race % bonuses.
Since new stats are plain values, and not %, no matter which build is used, breton, khajiit and orc will be better anyway, simply because their plain stats are better.
So before there were meta-races and pvp/niche-races. Now it's only better races and inferior races.

That is entirely wrong. So you're saying that there's no situation where redguard, Bosmer, Altmer etc can be used and will outperform other races?

I suggest you have a look at the races again and try to prove that, because your argument is invalid. All the changes do is add in values at the other end of the equation. Bosmer for example has 258 recovery that gets strongly amplified on a stamsorc or stamblade (you can get a multiplier of more than 2 on it) so with a Bosmer, you can use blue food instead of dubious throne and sustain just fine. Same holds for the non-sustain races. They have higher stats, but they have to invest more into sustain to actually reach a sustain level that is feasible.

Orc is not going to be better than redguard in all scenarios, because as soon as sustain matters, orc has to reduce stats elsewhere where redguard does not have to.

I'm not saying the changes have been perfect this week, but we talked to the devs and there are reasons why they were made. I'm pretty happy with the races and they will be altered again, so this is not the end all be all.

I find many races to be interesting choices for specific builds because they actually synergise a lot better with them than they used to.

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

The problem I see is why make an Altmer then you has Dunmer outside of the look, yes it has 150 less magic, extra stamina who is handy, might well be more useful in pvp than the Altmer sustain on magic build.
And you can convert class to stamina if meta changes or you are bored.

Altmer has 125 more magicka than Dunmer. That comes out to around 12 spell damage (no, that's not a typo, 125 magicka is the equivalent of 12 spell damage). The only real attribute Altmer have that Dunmer don't is the 215 stamina regen.

Olupajmibanan · February 2019

Even in PvP, why would you choose Altmer over Dunmer?
- Max stamina VS conditional stamregen is a matter of personal preference.
- Magicka difference is negligible.
- Spell damage is the same.

We are left with 5% mitigation while casting VS 2310 flame resistance and immunity to burning status effect.

John_Falstaff · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

The problem I see is why make an Altmer then you has Dunmer outside of the look, yes it has 150 less magic, extra stamina who is handy, might well be more useful in pvp than the Altmer sustain on magic build.
And you can convert class to stamina if meta changes or you are bored.

Altmer has 125 less magicka than Dunmer. That comes out to around 12 spell damage (no, that's not a typo, 125 magicka is the equivalent of 12 spell damage). The only real attribute Altmer have that Dunmer don't is the 215 stamina regen.

Did you mean that altmer has more magicka than dunmer, perchance? Altmer has 2000, dunmer 1875.

Elric_Ashborn · February 2019

Restoring Stamina is not really that situational for Magic Sorcerers. Dark Exchange (A Move that would also gain 5% protection from) returns a hefty sum for it's 1.2 second investment. This passive pretty much ensures you can cast this... Making sustain not as bad as it seems. Also Vigor can be used in it's stead even more so now.

Lore-wise this is absolutely destructive. The Altmer entire purposes and reason for being is in the premier unrivaled affinity to magic. I sat by with Summerset absolutely destroying the lore of Elder Scrolls. If the Queen loves and accepts all races, even allowing them on the Summerset isles why even have a war? Her ideals are more in-line with the alliance, then even found in the alliance itself.

Altmer were never known to be physically adept. This makes little sense.

If it were me, I'd introduce what was brought forward in oblivion... But instead I'd increase their magic damage so they were unrivaled compared to ANY other race in that department - but introduce a debuff that goes along with that accomplishing your "high risk, high reward" game play - a glass cannon if you will. Along with being the highest damage dealer they take ether double damage when burning, chilled, or concussed. or remove a flat spell and physical resistance.

John_Falstaff · February 2019

@Elric_Ashborn , so that's why I see physically fit and trained thalmor with swords all over Auridon... I don't think we should confuse altmers with faerie folk living in broughs and doing nothing but magic.