Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?

validifyedneb18_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

MLGProPlayer

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

Chilly-McFreeze

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

MLGProPlayer

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

Olupajmibanan

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

Altmer offers unique, very needed 5% mitigation while casting xD DKs, Wardens and Nightblades find it especially useful.

luizpaulom17

oh my god... more elfy cry... U elves are really the worst kind in this game... both on lore and player base... Nothing is good enough unlees if U are by far the most powerful race in the game for both PVP and PVE...

MLGProPlayer

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

oh my god... more elfy cry... U elves are really the worst kind in this game... both on lore and player base... Nothing is good enough unlees if U are by far the most powerful race in the game for both PVP and PVE...

Yes, I am a 7 ft tall, golden skinned humanoid with pointed ears in real life.

satanio

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Altmer offers unique, very needed 5% mitigation while casting xD DKs, Wardens and Nightblades find it especially useful.

But Soul Assault... and... and vampiric spammable!!!

luizpaulom17

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

oh my god... more elfy cry... U elves are really the worst kind in this game... both on lore and player base... Nothing is good enough unlees if U are by far the most powerful race in the game for both PVP and PVE...

Yes, I am a 7 ft tall, golden skinned humanoid with pointed ears in real life.

Thats dope man! Too bad U not clever too, cause even the dumbest of all eves woud get what a meant by refering to U as elves... If U still havent figured what I meant: I meant all playes that play as elves!

validifyedneb18_ESO

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

MLGProPlayer

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

Altmer has 125 more magicka. That is the equivalent 12 spell damage. Random variation will be higher than that difference.

Neither class is in a good spot as magicka DD, but Dunmer offers more value as a race.

luizpaulom17

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

Yeah... and if people tell U dont have sustain, just throw your vampirism on their faces! Even If U running a stam char!

validifyedneb18_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

Altmer has 125 more magicka. That is the equivalent 12 spell damage. Random variation will be higher than that difference.

Neither class is in a good spot as magicka DD, but Dunmer offers more value as a race.

Sorry I cant hear you over the sound of all that stamina regen you get.

MLGProPlayer

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

Altmer has 125 more magicka. That is the equivalent 12 spell damage. Random variation will be higher than that difference.

Neither class is in a good spot as magicka DD, but Dunmer offers more value as a race.

Sorry I cant hear you over the sound of all that stamina regen you get.

Troll confirmed.

validifyedneb18_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Just sitting here more than happy with my Dunmer. Imagine having more damage and still being salty.

Altmer has 125 more magicka. That is the equivalent 12 spell damage. Random variation will be higher than that difference.

Neither class is in a good spot as magicka DD, but Dunmer offers more value as a race.

Sorry I cant hear you over the sound of all that stamina regen you get.

Troll confirmed.

No. Thats your racial utility. Its very nice for PVP and far from bad for PVE.
You think burning immunity will increase my DPS or what?

Edit: Proof of being a competent PVE player still pending...

Chilly-McFreeze

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

Olupajmibanan

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

MLGProPlayer

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

Where did I say anything about wanting Altmer to be "at the cutting edge"?

I want them to have a reason to be picked over the other races.

Being able to switch between magicka and stamina builds without spending money on a race change token is valuable. Khajiit also have better sustain than Altmer (if just slightly).

Altmer need something to differentiate them from the other classes in PvE. Right now, it's nothing. For example, something like giving them 825 health as someone earlier mentioned would give them a unique identity in PvE and PvP without affecting DPS.

validifyedneb18_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

Where did I say anything about wanting Altmer to be "at the cutting edge"?

I want them to have a reason to be picked over the other races.

Being able to switch between magicka and stamina builds without spending money on a race change token is valuable. Khajiit also have better sustain than Altmer (if just slightly).

Altmer need something to differentiate them from the other classes in PvE. Right now, it's nothing. For example, something like giving them 825 health as someone earlier mentioned would give them a unique identity in PvE and PvP without affecting DPS.

Altmer are within 2% of any other race. To ask for more than that is to ask for "Cutting edge". Your race does good damage. Get over it.

Your uniqueness is insane stamina regen in combat. Enjoy.

Seraphayel

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Azyle1

Still going on about this eh? Most people have already proven your outcry to be wrong and unjust. Why are you still going off? Is it because you want Altmer to be THE go to mag race?

clocksstoppe

Azyle1 wrote: »

Still going on about this eh? Most people have already proven your outcry to be wrong and unjust. Why are you still going off? Is it because you want Altmer to be THE go to mag race?

It's because they have only altmer characters and they only do pve mag dd. One day they might crawl out of their rock and find out that there is an entire world out there with stamina builds and multiple variations of pvp types that they are missing on. Until then, when altmer gets changed, they will cry because in their mind there is no fallback even though they don't need a fallback as altmer is fine anyways.

Lord-Otto

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Chilly-McFreeze

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?

MLGProPlayer

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

ZOS has shown they don't care about the lore, hence a suggestion that doesn't fit the lore.

And passives need to be useful in both PvE and PvP. This game is more than just PvP (no matter how hard that is for PvPers to grasp).

MLGProPlayer

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

Where did I say anything about wanting Altmer to be "at the cutting edge"?

I want them to have a reason to be picked over the other races.

Being able to switch between magicka and stamina builds without spending money on a race change token is valuable. Khajiit also have better sustain than Altmer (if just slightly).

Altmer need something to differentiate them from the other classes in PvE. Right now, it's nothing. For example, something like giving them 825 health as someone earlier mentioned would give them a unique identity in PvE and PvP without affecting DPS.

Altmer are within 2% of any other race. To ask for more than that is to ask for "Cutting edge". Your race does good damage. Get over it.

Your uniqueness is insane stamina regen in combat. Enjoy.

Who is asking for more damage? Reading comprehension is not your strong suit it seems.

And lol @ ~200 stamina regen being "insane".

MLGProPlayer

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?

Which is useless in PvE.

Chilly-McFreeze

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?

Which is useless in PvE.

So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.

It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.

MLGProPlayer

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?

Which is useless in PvE.

So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.

It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.

Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE. The changes have been very PvP-centric when they gravitated toward one side.

All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.

Chilly-McFreeze

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

That doesn't really add up.

The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.

Alright.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.

And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.

So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/s

LiquidPony wrote: »

So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:

1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).

Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.

But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).

What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.

And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.

What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?

Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.

Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.

Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).

There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.

A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.

How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?

Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.

What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.

You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).

So, I don't see a problem here.

The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.

Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?

Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).

So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?

And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.

4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.

And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.

What's the problem?

Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.

Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.

And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.

Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?

Which is useless in PvE.

So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.

It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.

Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.

All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.

I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already (in settings where tiny % makes a difference), I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.