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Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?
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Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭the only two real viable altmer utilities would be shock resistance and shield strength.
why not both?
1000 virtual health increased shield cap and 2310 shock resistance/concussion immunity.
who could complain with that?
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 10, 2019 3:12PM4 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
No, that would have been increased stamina regen in the TES games.
The lore physical prowess is more of a resistance to negative effects.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
You're comparison is missleading. If we gross out anything that doesn't add to mag dps it shows a whole different picture. You also veiled that Altmer have far more "magicka dps" than Bretons, 258 spell damage to be exact.
- Altmer: magicka DPS ^2
- Khajiit: magicka DPS (+ magicka sustain, but seriously, that tiny bit is a joke, and the mag increase isn't as big as the others)
- Dunmer: magicka DPS
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain
I don't magickally do more dps with my stick just because I have weapon crit etc. The argument on khajiit/dunmer, that they can change from mag to stam without buying tokens is correct, but rather weak. The latest parses have shown them to be quite balanced as far as mag dps goes. If you add anything more to altmer,
for mag dps?MLGProPlayer wrote: »What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer Khajiit, Dunmer or Bretons, other than appearance?
.
2 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
let's not pretend that 75 recovery is triple the sustain of altmer. again presenting some pretty biased comparisons.5 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Don't forget about Altmer healers! There is a damn lot of healers which are Altmers on live (including myself) even though it is suboptimal race. We have chosen Altmer because we like the race and not because of racials.
4.3.0 Altmer with magicka restoring Spell Recharge was fine for a healer though still suboptimal.
4.3.2 Altmer with useless stamina restore is far far behind Argonians and Bretons to even think about it as an option for a healer.
The change made the gap between healer races wider. Well done!Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 10, 2019 3:39PM5 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
No, that would have been increased stamina regen in the TES games.
The lore physical prowess is more of a resistance to negative effects.
Hm, right. However, if I look through the older games, altmers only had stun immunity (like you already mentioned) but never more health but weakness to elements/magic in general (25-50%) and disease resistance. And the idea of bigger shields flying around would fit bretons more than altmers, according to the previous games.2 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
Yes. Khajiit get mag dps. Altmer get mag dps too. Those are totally the same thing and in no way does one race get significantly more focus on mag dps than the other. Not at all.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Don't forget about Altmer healers! There is a damn lot of healers which are Altmers on live (including myself) even though it is suboptimal race. We have chosen Altmer because we like the race and not because of racials.
4.3.0 Altmer with magicka restoring Spell Recharge was fine for a healer though still suboptimal.
4.3.2 Altmer with useless stamina restore is far far behind Argonians and Bretons to even think about it as an option for a healer.
The change made the gap between healer races wider. Well done!
As if race ever mattered that much for a healer. Altmer still make great healers, they still have + Magicka and Spell Damage. Altmer is an excellent option for a healer. Due to bonuses it might not be the best (hello Breton) but it wasn't the best before so why even bother? If something cannot be measured in ESO it's healing performance (and tanking performance is quite hard to measure as well).
It's funny how everybody here is acting like being part of the 1% of the playerbase that's going for scores and hard modes.Edited by Seraphayel on February 10, 2019 4:07PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -4 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
No, that would have been increased stamina regen in the TES games.
The lore physical prowess is more of a resistance to negative effects.
Hm, right. However, if I look through the older games, altmers only had stun immunity (like you already mentioned) but never more health but weakness to elements/magic in general (25-50%) and disease resistance. And the idea of bigger shields flying around would fit bretons more than altmers, according to the previous games.
Fair point. You know, maybe resistance to the diseased effect (Minor Defile) could be something instead of the channel protection. Takes away from Argonians, though, but they've both had that resistance in the games.
Health just struck me as more fitting than stamina. It has a few complications for ESO mechanics, that is true.
You know, why not just give us additional penetration?
Lore-friendly, situationally useful in PvE without breaking top 1% teams, situationally useful in PvP.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
let's not pretend that 75 recovery is triple the sustain of altmer. again presenting some pretty biased comparisons.
Altmer have 0 sustain.2 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
Yes. Khajiit get mag dps. Altmer get mag dps too. Those are totally the same thing and in no way does one race get significantly more focus on mag dps than the other. Not at all.
That's not what I said. Try again.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Don't forget about Altmer healers! There is a damn lot of healers which are Altmers on live (including myself) even though it is suboptimal race. We have chosen Altmer because we like the race and not because of racials.
4.3.0 Altmer with magicka restoring Spell Recharge was fine for a healer though still suboptimal.
4.3.2 Altmer with useless stamina restore is far far behind Argonians and Bretons to even think about it as an option for a healer.
The change made the gap between healer races wider. Well done!
As if race ever mattered that much for a healer. Altmer still make great healers, they still have + Magicka and Spell Damage. Altmer is an excellent option for a healer. Due to bonuses it might not be the best (hello Breton) but it wasn't the best before so why even bother? If something cannot be measured in ESO it's healing performance (and tanking performance is quite hard to measure as well).
It's funny how everybody here is acting like being part of the 1% of the playerbase that's going for scores and hard modes.
I find it funny that 3 posters are so hell bent on trolling every Altmer thread that pops up on the forums. What does it matter to you if Altmer has a magicka sustain passive or not (or any other passive that is useful in both PvE and PvP)? Do tell me.
If it doesn't affect their DPS performance (already established), then you're literally just posting out of spite. And I'm really not sure what you're spiteful over since this is a game. I'm guessing you got teabagged by an Altmer in PvP and now you've made it your life's mission to troll every Altmer thread on an online forum?Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 10, 2019 4:55PM5 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Don't forget about Altmer healers! There is a damn lot of healers which are Altmers on live (including myself) even though it is suboptimal race. We have chosen Altmer because we like the race and not because of racials.
4.3.0 Altmer with magicka restoring Spell Recharge was fine for a healer though still suboptimal.
4.3.2 Altmer with useless stamina restore is far far behind Argonians and Bretons to even think about it as an option for a healer.
The change made the gap between healer races wider. Well done!
As if race ever mattered that much for a healer. Altmer still make great healers, they still have + Magicka and Spell Damage. Altmer is an excellent option for a healer. Due to bonuses it might not be the best (hello Breton) but it wasn't the best before so why even bother? If something cannot be measured in ESO it's healing performance (and tanking performance is quite hard to measure as well).
It's funny how everybody here is acting like being part of the 1% of the playerbase that's going for scores and hard modes.
I find it funny that 3 posters are so hell bent on trolling every Altmer thread on the forum. What does it matter to you if Altmer has a sustain passive or not? Do tell me.
If it doesn't affect their DPS performance (already established), then you're literally just posting out of spite. And I'm really not sure what you're spiteful over since this is a game. I'm guessing you got teabagged by an Altmer in PvP and now you've made it your life's mission to troll every Altmer thread on an online forum?
I think we're just all confused as to why you're complaining when Altmer DPS is just fine and the new passive fits with the lore anyway.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade5 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
How is 258 spell damage and 2400 magica "Nothing offered over Khajiit"?
Edit: Once again, post something that proves you're even capable of high end DD where small distinctions like this matter.
What does 258 spell damage and 2000 magicka have to do with anything? Khajiit get 825 magicka and 8% crit which results in the exact same DPS.
You're running in circles with your argument (or lack thereof).
So, I don't see a problem here.
The point is Altmer offers NOTHING unique.
Khajiit gives you the same magicka DPS, plus top stamina DPS too. What reason does anyone have to pick Altmer, other than appearance?
Khajiit simply offers much more value than Altmer (they let you switch between magicka and stamina builds on a single character). Altmer needs something to differentiate it from Khajiit (i.e. better sustain, better survivability, etc.).
So if both have the same mag dps nobody pics High Elves if not for the looks? Isn't it the same for Khajiits then too?
If you raise Altmer's mag DPS, why should anyone pic Khajiits then?
And you got something. You just don't like it. I agree, stam return is useless as pve mag dd but so is weapon crit, health reg & stam regen for mag Khajiits. So is weapon dmg and max stam for pve dunmer mag dds. You don't want balance. You want your favourite race to be at cutting edge, better than the rest.
4.3.0 parses prooved that Altmer was nowhere near the "cutting edge". So no wrong will happen if we revert the change to Spell Recharge.
And no wrong will happen when Altmer stay exactly the same as they are now on PTS. They are still the race with the most raw power for Magicka DPS.
What's the problem?
Oh by the way how does additional health fit Altmer lore all of a sudden now? It was never about lore, it was always about Altmer offering a unique (!) bonus you don't like. For Magicka DPS Altmer offer something special, Stamina return which is important in PvP. If that doesn't fit your playstyle that's ok, it doesn't have to.
Altmer have been noted to have superior physical conditions here and there in the lore. This translated to stun immunity in Daggerfall and disease resistance later on. That would be a bit unfit for ESO's needs. A health bonus would also implicate advanced physical condition and fit better into ESO's build mechanics.
And yes, some people take deep dislike to retconning their favorite race. High Elves have always been super magic-specialized. ZOS even acknowledged the significance of lore by taking inspiration for racials from it. They said so many times in the notes. And yet, they ignore it for Altmer. That's borderline hypocritical.
Superior physical condition as in a stamina return passive?
Which is useless in PvE.
So is the movement of orcs and bosmer. The stamina + weapon dmg and burning immunity on a mag dunmer. The weapon crit, stam regen and health regen on a cat.
It almost seams like ZOS wants some passive to be more useful in one game mode than in the other.
Find me one passive that is useless in PvP but it useful in PvE.
All passives need to be useful in both modes. Otherwise, you get races like Altmer which offer very poor value in PvE.
I didn't meant it the way you took it. More like "seems like ZOS wants some passives be more useful in PvP than in PvE". And since altmers are on par already, I really don't know why you say they offer poor value.
They offer poor value compared to the other races. Here is what all the magicka DD currently offer:
- Altmer: magicka DPS + off-resource sustain
- Khajiit: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + magicka sustain + stamina sustain
- Dunmer: magicka DPS + stamina DPS + flame resistence
- Breton: magicka DPS + magicka sustain + spell resistence
There is a huge discrepancy in value there. Altmer have only one relevant PvE attribute (damage), while the other races all have damage plus one or more relevant attributes.
let's not pretend that 75 recovery is triple the sustain of altmer. again presenting some pretty biased comparisons.
Altmer have 0 sustain.
No it has 600 stamina every 4 sec6 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭clocksstoppe wrote: »
No it has 600 stamina every 4 sec
Actually 645 every 6 seconds.
So 215 stam regen rather than 300.
And b/c you won't proc that passive on cooldown it will be most likely somewhere between 175 and 190.
Edit: which is far less reliable and less in total numbers than what Bretons get. So instead of 2 to 3 set bonuses ahead of Altmers, they are now 2.5 to 3.5 set bonuses ahead Altmers.Edited by Galarthor on February 10, 2019 5:34PM4 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »grannas211 wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
ZOS ignored all the test results that were provided by the public. Is that not concerning?
They buffed all racials with stats tied to them, did a stealth rework for Bosmer, made Dunmer closer to Altmer for DPS, almost did a complete rework on orcs again, reworked red diamond and buffed argonians.
All major community concerns after testing. Not bad for a weeks work in my opinion.
Now we wait, sim the new changes, and then we come back here and discuss the results.
You seemed to ignore the Altmer nerf in your list. How convenient.
They had a major passive turned into a utility passive. To be more in line with many other racials from a DD perspective, who have 1 passive dedicated to utility or suitability. Dunmers fire resist + health + burning immunity, Bretons spell resistance, Khajiit health and health recovery.
You're pulling us in circles here. Im sorry but im done. You're right, Altmer where nerfed, but you're not correct about them being lowest magica DPS by a long shot. Id almost put money on them being second after Breton right now. And guess what. This is the test server. Dont like that bretons have more damage? Get the results, make your case, hope Zenni agrees.
You've brought up the Khajiit/Shadow buff without thinking about it, completely ignored the CP buff, disregarded the fact that Dunmer are lower magica dps and pretended like ZOS did nothing to appease any community concerns in the latest update. If you cant see that then I dont know what to say.
why should the damage race be second in damage behind the sustain race?
On paper they do have more damage. But as we have seen sustain makes up the difference.
Post your results, ZOS will make changes to fit. You can read the developer comments on all these changes, its not like they believe Breton should be top dps. How is this so hard to understand?
Why not? Bretons deserve it...1 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »grannas211 wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
ZOS ignored all the test results that were provided by the public. Is that not concerning?
They buffed all racials with stats tied to them, did a stealth rework for Bosmer, made Dunmer closer to Altmer for DPS, almost did a complete rework on orcs again, reworked red diamond and buffed argonians.
All major community concerns after testing. Not bad for a weeks work in my opinion.
Now we wait, sim the new changes, and then we come back here and discuss the results.
You seemed to ignore the Altmer nerf in your list. How convenient.
They had a major passive turned into a utility passive. To be more in line with many other racials from a DD perspective, who have 1 passive dedicated to utility or suitability. Dunmers fire resist + health + burning immunity, Bretons spell resistance, Khajiit health and health recovery.
You're pulling us in circles here. Im sorry but im done. You're right, Altmer where nerfed, but you're not correct about them being lowest magica DPS by a long shot. Id almost put money on them being second after Breton right now. And guess what. This is the test server. Dont like that bretons have more damage? Get the results, make your case, hope Zenni agrees.
You've brought up the Khajiit/Shadow buff without thinking about it, completely ignored the CP buff, disregarded the fact that Dunmer are lower magica dps and pretended like ZOS did nothing to appease any community concerns in the latest update. If you cant see that then I dont know what to say.
why should the damage race be second in damage behind the sustain race?
On paper they do have more damage. But as we have seen sustain makes up the difference.
Post your results, ZOS will make changes to fit. You can read the developer comments on all these changes, its not like they believe Breton should be top dps. How is this so hard to understand?
Why not? Bretons deserve it...
Get back in line, healer boi
EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Don't forget about Altmer healers! There is a damn lot of healers which are Altmers on live (including myself) even though it is suboptimal race. We have chosen Altmer because we like the race and not because of racials.
4.3.0 Altmer with magicka restoring Spell Recharge was fine for a healer though still suboptimal.
4.3.2 Altmer with useless stamina restore is far far behind Argonians and Bretons to even think about it as an option for a healer.
The change made the gap between healer races wider. Well done!
As if race ever mattered that much for a healer. Altmer still make great healers, they still have + Magicka and Spell Damage. Altmer is an excellent option for a healer. Due to bonuses it might not be the best (hello Breton) but it wasn't the best before so why even bother? If something cannot be measured in ESO it's healing performance (and tanking performance is quite hard to measure as well).
It's funny how everybody here is acting like being part of the 1% of the playerbase that's going for scores and hard modes.
I find it funny that 3 posters are so hell bent on trolling every Altmer thread that pops up on the forums. What does it matter to you if Altmer has a magicka sustain passive or not (or any other passive that is useful in both PvE and PvP)? Do tell me.
If it doesn't affect their DPS performance (already established), then you're literally just posting out of spite. And I'm really not sure what you're spiteful over since this is a game. I'm guessing you got teabagged by an Altmer in PvP and now you've made it your life's mission to troll every Altmer thread on an online forum?
I AM an Altmer and I like the new Stamina passive because it fits my playstyle in PvP. I don't want it to be changed and there is no need to revert it back. That's why I am "trolling" your mass hysteria threads.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -7 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread feels like a 80k health tank in Cyro that everyone keeps running out and fighting. I think we need to stop running out and fighting the tank, it's pointless.
I think Altmer is fine and I have like 4 of them, the races are pretty close and that's good and healthy. We will see what further testing brings but so far I am pretty happy with the results.5 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454547/dps-data-and-analysis-on-racial-passives-through-all-pts-cycles-updated-with-4-3-2-magplar-data#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457935/stamina-magicka-raid-warhorn-dps-solo-sustain-dps-tests-graphs-with-cp-stat-boost-correction-4-3-2/p1
Altmer is fine.
7 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@MLGProPlayer , seriously, if you feel that stamina regen is useless in PvE for magicka damage dealers, then maybe you should start with trying to do some PvE. Might be an eye-opener how much do you need stamina topped off whenever you need to roll (say, upper ledge in vMA), break free (hi stranglers in vMoS HM) or block (hi starfall in vHRC) to avoid a team wipe. You question: khajiit can swap magicka/stamina, what's the point of choosing altmer? But the question: altmer has stamina sustain that helps with mobility and generally makes things easier, why choose khajiit? That (absolutely valid as well) question somehow feels irrelevant to you, and I'm starting to think that it is so because you don't really want balance, you want altmer to be absolute best for all things magicka. I think that this thread's turning into a circus.6 -
Chelo✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »grannas211 wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
ZOS ignored all the test results that were provided by the public. Is that not concerning?
They buffed all racials with stats tied to them, did a stealth rework for Bosmer, made Dunmer closer to Altmer for DPS, almost did a complete rework on orcs again, reworked red diamond and buffed argonians.
All major community concerns after testing. Not bad for a weeks work in my opinion.
Now we wait, sim the new changes, and then we come back here and discuss the results.
You seemed to ignore the Altmer nerf in your list. How convenient.
They had a major passive turned into a utility passive. To be more in line with many other racials from a DD perspective, who have 1 passive dedicated to utility or suitability. Dunmers fire resist + health + burning immunity, Bretons spell resistance, Khajiit health and health recovery.
You're pulling us in circles here. Im sorry but im done. You're right, Altmer where nerfed, but you're not correct about them being lowest magica DPS by a long shot. Id almost put money on them being second after Breton right now. And guess what. This is the test server. Dont like that bretons have more damage? Get the results, make your case, hope Zenni agrees.
You've brought up the Khajiit/Shadow buff without thinking about it, completely ignored the CP buff, disregarded the fact that Dunmer are lower magica dps and pretended like ZOS did nothing to appease any community concerns in the latest update. If you cant see that then I dont know what to say.
why should the damage race be second in damage behind the sustain race?
On paper they do have more damage. But as we have seen sustain makes up the difference.
Post your results, ZOS will make changes to fit. You can read the developer comments on all these changes, its not like they believe Breton should be top dps. How is this so hard to understand?
But the results had already been shared and ZOS ignored them. How does one get ZOS to take notice of the testing being done on the public test server?
Actually the results did show that altmers were ahead of Bretons because they did parse higher and they still are. Bretons can only close the gap and go higher when sustain becomes a part of the fight which makes sense cause they are the sustain race. So it's actually balanced. If Bretons couldn't compete even in sustain fights which is the whole point of the race then it would be imbalanced because altmers would be ahead in every way like it is on live.
Again, in terms of raw dmg output altmers are ahead. Bretons can only compete when sustain also becomes important which is the whole freaking point.
That's exactly the point. Bretons suppose to win in long fights because they are meant to be a sustain race...0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »
Alright.LiquidPony wrote: »
That doesn't really add up.
The 8% weapon/spell crit is equivalent to 258 weapon/spell damage as far as the "set bonus math" ZOS referred to in the original Racial Passives update.
And health. Makes it 2475 resources, thats more or equal to 2000 of one resource.LiquidPony wrote: »Khajiit only get 825 max stam/magicka.
HP is valuable in PvE, don't forget that.
So, It breaks down to Khajiits Robustness vs Altmers Spell Recharge:
42mag/s, 42stam/s, 50hp/s VS. 95 of whichever is lower/sLiquidPony wrote: »So if you want to "equalize" Khajiit and Altmer with that logic, you can either:
1. Remove one of the resource recovery from Khajiit.
2. Or cut them in some ratio.
3. Do something else for Altmers instead of resources return (flat pen, low percentage of spell crit, chance to apply status effect).
Health is only marginally useful in PvE, and that's really relative to player skill. In the "meta" sense there's largely no difference between a build with 16k health and one with 17k health. And Spell Recharge is 107.5 per second now, not 95.
But sure, give Altmer 825 max health and call it square. I'm sure that will mollify the Altmer salt brigade. It's actually a pretty fair balancing suggestion, it lets them run Witchmother's/Clockwork food and have more-or-less the same max health as they would with blue food, which is beneficial for the progression-type player but isn't going to move the needle in terms of how many people perceive "balance" (i.e., what build hits the biggest numbers according to Liko or LZH or whatever other top players post parses).
What's the point of your suggestions for Khajiit changes? Khajiit is a hybrid race, effective as either a stam DPS or a magicka DPS but apparently fairly well balanced in both regards, so why do you want to cut their already very low recovery passives when they already have lower max stat passives than every other DPS-oriented race in the game? Please go back and read the "Upcoming Racial Balance Changes" post from Gilliam and keep in mind that *hybrid* races will have slightly higher total stat bonuses by virtue of being hybrid races.
And I don't even know what you're thinking with the third suggestion for Altmer. You want to give the race with the most spell damage *and* the most max magicka an additional DPS-related bonus like pen, crit, or status effects? In what circumstance would you ever choose Dunmer or Khajiit for a magicka DPS character if you did that? It doesn't make any sense.
What's the point of playing Altmer if they offer nothing over Khajiit and Dunmer? If Khajiit and Dunmer can give you top magicka AND top stamina DPS, why would you pick Altmer who can only give you top magicka DPS?
Hybrid classes aren't supposed to be the best at both roles. They're supposed to be good at both.
Currently, Altmer provides nothing of value over those other two. Their DPS is virtually identical, while they bring nothing else to the table.
Breton provide the same DPS, but they are at least more versatile due to their sustain. Breton does not need to maintain a perfect rotation as they can afford a few mistimed casts in the heat of a fight (Altmer need to be perfect or they have to heavy attack to restore magicka).
There is literally no reason to play Altmer over the other races.
A +825 health boost would actually be a nice buff and give them something unique.
I'm not talking about "hybrid classes".
Hybrid races are a totally different thing. What does it matter if a Khajiit or Dunmer can be a good stamina or magicka DPS? Are a lot of people going to keep gear for both specs, level skill lines for both specs, re-allocate all of their CP, re-morph all of their skills, and re-allocate all of their attribute points with any regularity? That has nothing to do with "balance". The fact that Dunmer have +max stam and +weapon damage means absolutely nothing for a PvE Dunmer magicka DPS. Same goes for a PvE Khajiit magicka DPS. There might be some trivially small DPS increase when using Rearming Trap but that's not going to make the decision for anyone. The stats targeted towards the other spec are functionally meaningless in PvE.
Perhaps there will be some people who consider on character creation that they may want to switch from magicka to stam, or vice-versa, down the road, but this isn't going to be something that most players do with any kind of regularity.
And I disagree that there's no reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit or Dunmer. In fact, I would ask, in a PvE context ... why would anyone ever choose Dunmer? Altmer have objectively better magicka DPS stats than Dunmer, even if it's a small amount. Altmer is clearly a better choice for a standard PvP mage than Khajiit, whereas Khajiit might be more appropriate for a stealth/bomber type character. Altmer is also still likely a better choice for a healer than either of those two races as well. Dunmer vs. Altmer for a standard PvP mage is an interesting choice, though, since a lot of people build max stam or stam regen into PvP magicka specs via Amberplasm or Shacklebreaker or the like. They seem to be pretty balanced in that regard.
But I do completely agree with the health buff. I've been comparing Altmer to Orc all along, since they have similar DPS bonuses and both lost their recovery passive in 4.3.2. The real meaningful difference between the two is that Orc still have +1000 health and Altmer do not. So if Altmer and Orc are supposed to be equals on their respective sides of the fence, then Altmer should get a max health bonus as well. It would have a nice synergy with their PvP-related stamina return passive and also provide some flexibility for people who are concerned with hitting some minimum HP number in PvE.
IMO that's what people should be banging the drum for. Compare the two:
Orc:
+2000 Stamina
+258 Weapon Damage
+12% sprint cost reduction
+10% sprint speed
+150 HP/s when doing damage with a weapon ability
+1000 Health
Altmer:
+2000 Magicka
+258 Spell Damage
+5% damage reduction when using a channel/cast time ability
+107.5 Stam/s when using a class ability
Orcs clearly bring more to the table. Personally I think the Altmer stam return bonus is much more useful than the Orc health return bonus, but I'd still say that Orcs have two additional passives on top of their Altmer equivalents: +1000 health and one of the sprint passives.Edited by LiquidPony on February 10, 2019 8:45PM3 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@LiquidPony
I think that's due to Orcs having too many good bonuses at the moment. If anything changes, they'll lose some. I don't know if they'll get their Stamina reduced but I could see it happen to still have them as a viable tank race. I think we all agree that Orcs, out of all races, have the most and "best" bonuses overall. Don't know why they needed so much of them.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
morrowingerSoul ShrivenNow, after posting Orc bonuses post I got the answer about main question of this topic.
Reason of nerf of High Elves and other magic toon company and buffing stamina Orcs.
Orcs and Trolls are close.
How looks some guys "your elfy vaining" and developers who like to play brutal Stamina melees and hate "that elfy magic nerds":
Stop talking, we got the answer, need to close this thread.
Edited by morrowinger on February 11, 2019 12:59AM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@MLGProPlayer , seriously, if you feel that stamina regen is useless in PvE for magicka damage dealers, then maybe you should start with trying to do some PvE. Might be an eye-opener how much do you need stamina topped off whenever you need to roll (say, upper ledge in vMA), break free (hi stranglers in vMoS HM) or block (hi starfall in vHRC) to avoid a team wipe. You question: khajiit can swap magicka/stamina, what's the point of choosing altmer? But the question: altmer has stamina sustain that helps with mobility and generally makes things easier, why choose khajiit? That (absolutely valid as well) question somehow feels irrelevant to you, and I'm starting to think that it is so because you don't really want balance, you want altmer to be absolute best for all things magicka. I think that this thread's turning into a circus.
Experienced magicka DDs do not need stamina regen in PvE. That is a fact. You will never encounter a situation where you won't be able to dodge/block/break free when you need to if you were playing the mechanics properly.
Don't want to take my word, or the word of any other experienced endgame DD for it? Fine, here is the top ranked DD in the world to echo our statements:
https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0 Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 11, 2019 12:44AM2 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »John_Falstaff wrote: »@MLGProPlayer , seriously, if you feel that stamina regen is useless in PvE for magicka damage dealers, then maybe you should start with trying to do some PvE. Might be an eye-opener how much do you need stamina topped off whenever you need to roll (say, upper ledge in vMA), break free (hi stranglers in vMoS HM) or block (hi starfall in vHRC) to avoid a team wipe. You question: khajiit can swap magicka/stamina, what's the point of choosing altmer? But the question: altmer has stamina sustain that helps with mobility and generally makes things easier, why choose khajiit? That (absolutely valid as well) question somehow feels irrelevant to you, and I'm starting to think that it is so because you don't really want balance, you want altmer to be absolute best for all things magicka. I think that this thread's turning into a circus.
Experienced magicka DDs do not need stamina regen in PvE. That is a fact. You will never encounter a situation where you won't be able to dodge/block/break free when you need to if you were playing the mechanics properly.
Don't want to take my word, or the word of any other experienced endgame DD for it? Fine, here is the top ranked DD in the world to echo our statements:https://youtu.be/u1iXKjHY5u0
Sure bud.
Id like to bring up that issue of you provinding proof that you are a top PVE player. There is literally no point listening to you complain about stuff that only affects the top 10% of PVE players unless you are in that top 10%.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Orcs is bis level stamina DD while also being tanky especially for PvP and solo play.Seraphayel wrote: »@LiquidPony
I think that's due to Orcs having too many good bonuses at the moment. If anything changes, they'll lose some. I don't know if they'll get their Stamina reduced but I could see it happen to still have them as a viable tank race. I think we all agree that Orcs, out of all races, have the most and "best" bonuses overall. Don't know why they needed so much of them.
An optimized PvE tank build would rather have an proc stamina and magic return than health as he is backed by healer.
Change the Altmer to return magic and stamina then using an class ability, Altmer is now an tanking race
However sustain would be more of Khajiit level than Breton but its something.
This will push Altmer ahead a bit, so they will need the tankyness to survive the nerf storm
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0
