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The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

  • IzzyStardust
    IzzyStardust
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    max_only wrote: »
    Well shards (the damage one is used more than the resourceful one these days) and orbs restore the highest resource. So if you needed your lowest resource and you weren’t getting it through synergies then Altmer will get it through their racial passive. The only time this comes up for me is when I’m tanking and I keep getting filled on my highest resource (usually stamina) but I need some help on my lowest so I can apply buffs or ranged taunt (magicka only).

    And we didn't effin WANT it! Why is this a stumper for people?! WTF am I gonna do with MORE STAM when I have full bar or stam!?
  • IzzyStardust
    IzzyStardust
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    peacenote wrote: »
    This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

    Just two examples:

    Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.
    Inig0 wrote: »
    ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

    You are directly costing your player base money and time.

    The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

    Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:
    1. Lore
    2. Looks
    3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
    4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]
    NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

    Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

    Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

    I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

    Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

    What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

    Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

    Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

    This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.
    I would so love to have stam racial passives for my Breton stamblade this would make me very happy something I have wanted for long time please consider it zos I know it’s hard to please everyone

    REROLL/Race Change ALTMER; like we all have to reroll Breton. *all better!*
  • Logan67
    Logan67
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    Can we get a racial change for all characters and not just the points back?
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    Considering the explanation for High Elf passives given in 4.3.1:
    High Elf culture is heavily ingrained with the belief of destiny and birthright, so we wanted a passive that highlighted their ability to harness their innate powers, or class. Granting them a unique resource when accessing a class ability really gets that feeling off and makes it much more engaging than the previous flat recovery bonus.

    On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability.

    Then why go to extreme lengths to emphasize this, when you could have simply gone to a % cost reduction for class abilities, in the same way you gave Redguard a % cost reduction to weapon abilities?
    Fierce and resilient, the Redguard race are well respected for their physical combat prowess. We wanted to emphasize their cultural background of being well versed in the ways of combat by granting them a cost reduction bonus for weapon abilities, while pulling back from some of their passive recovery. Instead we’ve moved it more into their offensive staying power with Adrenaline Rush to highlight their natural advantage to attrition.

    Considering the further changes in 4.3.2, adding "flavors", you could have substituted the damage reduction while using a channeled ability, which makes sense only for a single class, with something with more general applicability. For example: decrease cost of break free by 15% for 5 seconds after using a class ability, which would be quite useful in the same way Redguards get 15% snare reduction. Considering High Elf is primarily a magicka race, such a change would make sense, since the stamina off-resource is mostly used for various CC break. Also it won't be unbalances, since it requires preemptive play style to use it effectively.
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+0
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    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 34 | Master Crafter: all traits, styles & recipes
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 18 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |

    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 4 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 4 |
    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 4 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 3 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 3 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 3 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 3 |
    Milariel | 50 Wolld Elf Warden | AD AR 3 |
  • Vanguard1
    Vanguard1
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    Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

    Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.
  • Logan67
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    I guess I don't see the point in refunding the points spent in the racial line.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Vanguard1 wrote: »
    Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

    Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

    No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

    1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

    2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

    3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

    4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

    So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.
  • Vanguard1
    Vanguard1
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    Vanguard1 wrote: »
    Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

    Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

    No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

    While I agree with most of the comments here, it still doesn't change that fact that this conversation will not change the outcome. Personally, I think sticking with the lore should be a must in a game that is heavily based on lore; however, sometimes in order to keep game play even changes are going to be made and then remade over and over until they get it to an acceptable level, which I believe we are seeing the first stages of the coming changes. We will not like it but we will get used to it, why because there isn't a better MMO right now.
  • karthrag_inak
    karthrag_inak
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    So when is dev explanation for massive khajiit change coming?
  • FilteredRiddle
    FilteredRiddle
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    Imperial continues to improve! I still think there is additional room for enhancement though.

    After last week's update, I made a suggestion to change their stats as follows:
    Imperial:
    - Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line* by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
    - 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
    - New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
    - 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

    *Two-Handed, Dual-Wield, and One Hand and Shield
    Given PTS Patch Notes v4.3.3's big improvement, I think that could/should be reasonably updated to:
    Imperial:
    - Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
    - 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
    - New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
    - 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.
    If for some reason ZOS wanted to give in to the complaints that Magicka need be included (I don't think it's necessary, given the in-game lore history and minority of actual lore users to the size of the Cyrodiliic population but...), it could actually be changed following a suggestion I previously made:
    Imperial:
    - Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee or Staff Skill Line by 10%, extra 1% Gold gain.
    - 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
    - New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon or Staff Damage by 258, based on your highest maximum resource.
    - 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and either Stamina or Magicka based on your highest maximum resource. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.
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    Marcurio Valerius: Imperial Stamina Dragonknight DPS (DC)
    Ignatius Valerius: Breton Magicka Templar Healer (PVP) (EP)
    Constans Valerius: Imperial Magicka Sorcerer DPS (AD)
    Teo Valerius: Breton Magicka Templar Healer (AD)
    Maxim Valerius: Breton Magicka Nightblade DPS (AD)
    Astius Valerius: Breton Magicka Warden DPS (AD)
    Kastav Valerius: Imperial Stamina Sorcerer DPS (AD)
    Vyric Valerius: Breton Magicka Dragonknight DPS (AD)
    Lucien Valerius: Imperial Stamina Warden DPS (PVP)(EP)
    Zedrick Valerius: Imperial Stamina Templar DPS (AD)
    Falx Valerius: Breton Magicka Templar DPS (AD)
    Wulf Valerius: Imperial Stamina Warden DPS (AD)
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  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Vanguard1 wrote: »
    Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

    Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

    No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

    1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

    2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

    3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

    4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

    So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

    None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

    All of it is true. As I said, some lore racials were added, others removed. So ZOS did exactly what they said. None of the races that are tailored towards Magicka or Stamina DPS clearly outperform others. All Magicka and Stamina DPS are very similar and close together when it comes to DPS. That Stamina races are apart from Magicka races when it comes to DPS (and vice versa) is normal and was never the goal to make it different.

    Bosmer complaints about stealth: understandable.

    The displeasure is in most cases totally made up. Besides Bosmer losing stealth everything is fine and in line with what ZOS wanted to do. Yes, even the Altmer stamina restore.
  • Soldier224
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    None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

    I know. Altmer dont can run or lift a Sword in the lore...

    It´s interesting, that many players use the lore as an argument although they know nothing about the Lore.
  • Ysbriel
    Ysbriel
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    Soldier224 wrote: »
    None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

    I know. Altmer dont can run or lift a Sword in the lore...

    It´s interesting, that many players use the lore as an argument although they know nothing about the Lore.

    Were in previous games have Altmers been known for their outstanding physical capabilities?

    His post can’t be anything else but true, the racial passives in this game were not meant to follow lore, and that is the problem, if from the start they would had kept it simple and not try to slam a one sided design on the game nobody would had be complaining about racial identity

    Altmers - destruction skill line damage bost only, higher magicka pool
    Breton - Magicka regeneration and a magicka pool second to altmer , a percentage in the duration of buffs and damage shields strength
    Bosmer - Bow damage boost , stealth poison resistance, meat foods last longer.
    Khajiits- Stealth and a damage boost if using daggers, substatial critical chances. Higher pickpocket chance better lock picking.
    Argonians - they drink hist sap so the potion boost somewhat represents that so they are basically good.
    Dunmer- dual wield damage boost, fire damage boost fire resistance
    Orcs- are pretty much good.
    Nord- two weapon damage boost, some extra health and a flat but not exageratend spell/physical resistance

    Redguards and Imperials- why both together? since there is no one handed, One handed and shield is the closest thing and you boost both races damage with that skill line and then work on who gets more stam and who gets more health, from there without the requirement of changing any animations all you do is that one morph of each skill provides something that makes it useful for other than tanking.

    Ransack- Stab your enemy 3 times and apply either resource steal, cause of what ransacking is.

    Reverberating bash - the initial target and enemies around him take (x) physical damage for (x) seconds.

    Shield invasion- charge forward (x) distance, all enemies in your path get damaged.

    Deep Slash- just make it a small conal area and targets bleed (x) damage for (x) seconds

    Shield Discipline- would be useful


    from that basic they could had just worked whatever extra passives they wanted to work around them and basically from there we would had the option to have our characters by race exceed in what they are traditionally known for, everything else you want to make out of them relies on mundus stones, sets and class, guilds and alliance skill lines , this would had provided a closer gap in general DPS if any other type of build was to be made cause the boost would be once again on what they are traditionally known for. It doesn’t take a long comprehensive Lore Master level knowledge to understand this.
  • actosh
    actosh
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    Wouldnt call Imperials decent at the moment. Playable fits better ^^
  • Deathlord92
    I still really want a way to morph my Breton racial passives to stam I been playing a Breton assassin since oblivion still playing a Breton cutthroat in skyrim remastered been playing a Breton stamblade in eso since day 1 console release he wields a sword more deadly thn any Redguard 🔥🔥🔥
  • karthrag_inak
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    Is any dev commentary/explanation ever going to be offered for the rationale behind the massive khajiit change that was just "snuck" in?
  • Kalle_Demos
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    I'd like to point this out and I agree with this analysis. Some choices are objectively better than others and diversity is lessened further on top of damaging racial identity. All of this achieves the exact opposite of what ZOS claimed to be their goals with re-balancing racials.
    well someone has to say it....PVE (endgame raids) racial diversity for DD's is gutted with those Patches.
    Those are estimated BIS setups, some things are already proven (orc > khajit for sNB for example)

    Now on Live we see mostly:
    stam DD -> Redguard
    Mag DD -> Dunmer, altmer
    Healers -> Altmer, Bretons, Argonians
    Tanks -> Argonians, Imperials

    With PTS 4.3.3 I would reduce those down to:
    stam DD -> Orc
    Mag DD -> Breton
    Healers -> Breton, (maybe Argonians)
    Tanks -> Nords, Imperial and Argonian


    overall we went from 6 Different Races down to 5
    3 of those 5 Races are likely to end up as Tanks.
    the Main diversity loss is towards Mag DD and healers, while Tanks got a new viable race with Nords now.
    For stam DD's in BIS setups, they just gona roll an Orc and use Lavafood, to make up the sustainloss from moving aways from Redguard.

    Here's my Idea, which Passives were good / as balanced as possible by Patches:

    4.3.0 Orc, Redguard, Altmer, Nord
    4.3.2 Khajit, Breton, Argonian
    4.3.3 Imperial, Bosmer

    Dunmer got pushed into Hybrid, which IMO is a bad decision, buit jeah why not, let it be a Hybrid for PVP...PVE its prob useless, unless you switch between stam and mag alot, letting you save money for Tokens.

    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
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