Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

BloodStorm

Mmmm. New high elf racial looks like it works perfect with Blazing shield tanks . Making my tank stronger and others, awesome.

DaveMoeDee

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

Right, I'm sure they never thought of that. It isn't possible that they consider multiple approaches each time and choose what they think will work best while mitigating risk.

BloodStorm

Nicalas wrote: »

Nice cash grab. 1 free race change. Which means I have to spend $300 or reroll everything.

Or have a few perfected characters. Always found it odd people have a bunch of characters they actually mind deleting. To each their own I guess.

PriorityBalle

Why oh why on earth, are you guys at zenimax NERFING that races that look slighty good rather than buffing the ones that's being complained about ?!

Zordrage

PriorityBalle wrote: »

Why oh why on earth, are you guys at zenimax NERFING that races that look slighty good rather than buffing the ones that's being complained about ?!

Powercreep thats why...

Jaraal

rage607 wrote: »

I have an imperial DK health tank with shields based on Max health and with your changes you are now lowering his Max health quite a bit.

That is not an improvement. Please stop messing around with stats.

Tanks are always suffering when these kind of changes are done.

They are doing this solely because of PvP players crying about "unkillable tanks". But players will adapt and still be unkillable. Won't change anything in that regard, but PvE raiders will most certainly suffer with more tanks being one shot, etc.

Anyron

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

Cundu_Ertur

Just a reminder: taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.

BlueRaven

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

"Bosmers make excellent guards," said no lore-book, NPC, or in-game tool-tip. Ever.

HankTwo

If you break the passives down Nord seems a bit lacking compared to Orc:

Nord 1500 stamina vs Orc 2000 stamina = Orc wins
Nord 1000 health vs Orc 1000 health = Even
Nord 3960 resistances (77% of Fortified Brass 5-piece) vs Orc 258 weapon damage (86% of Hunding's Rage 5-piece) = Orc wins
Nord ultimate gain (50% of Werewolf Hide 5-piece) vs Orc sprint bonus (over 67% of Fjord's Legacy 5-piece) = Orc wins
Nord frost resistance vs Orc restore health = I'd give that one to the Nord

I have to say that I like the Nord ult generation for my PvP stam DK. Still, it would be a good change to give Nord 2000 stamina, imo, to make them even in that regard with all the other stamina races (Orc, Imperial, Redguard, Bosmer, they all get 2k stam).

Uryel

rage607 wrote: »

Won't change anything in that regard, but PvE raiders will most certainly suffer with more tanks being one shot, etc.

Forget PvE raiders, PvE casual are being hit really hard. I play a thief, and it's not roleplay. I sneak everywhere, hit the delve boss and him only, steal sh*t, whatever... I'm not into raids, not into veteran stuff, I just like to go wherever I damn well please and laugh as the guards don't see me.

So of course I made a Bosmer. Stealthy, tiny, good with bows, what is there not to love here ? Well apparently some PvP whiners complaiend that Bosmers were too god with a bow and they couldn't win, so stealth bonus is being removed from them. It makes no sense lorewise, hurts no one in raid contentes, but makes us not-too-casual-but-certainly-not-hardcore players absurdly annoyed. Either I lose my gameplay, or I go khajiit and lose my character's identity. None of which is satisfactory.

But hey, we get a stealth detection bonus ! Super cool, considering there isn't a single stealthed enemy in PvE. And now we can dodge roll for more penetration. Amazing, considering how little use it has in PvE, aside maybe in trials, I wouldn't know.

This update reeks of PvP and screws the non-competitive players really bad. But hey, look ! Dragons ! Necromancers ! Excitement !

Well, I'm not paying one more cent until I have a way to retain my stealth without tuning into a khajiit or taking extreme measures (like full stealth set for a still underperforming stealth level, vampire and looking like I fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down, or morphing one of my most powerful skill into a version that doesn't use the ressource I use thus gimping its damage but providing a speed boost, or even better, having to use a PvP skill in PvE that does nothing but boost movement just so I can keep PvE-ing normally).

Uryel

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

The +3m bonus to stealth + 1 set that gives +2m +1 set that gives no stealth movement penalty means you can sneak pretty much anywhere, in any restricted area, and having minimal trouble with the guards. You can go through any delve with only minimal combat if you're in a hurry for whatever you came herte for. Stealing is a breeze. And the +10% stealth damage makes for a good klling blow when you need to enter combat. Normal delve mobs, I can one shot from sneak with a heavy attack from my 2 handed sword (once buffed), meaning one less enemy to fight.

And I'm talking about PvE only, of course. I don't PvP. Only went to Cyrodiil for the skyshards, ended up tangled in a fight or two, lost each time, didn't care except for the fact that I had to ride all the way back where I was.

Apparently, the problem with Bosmers in PvP is that they are good snipers. And people complain that snipers are unfair. Well, shoot, just like in real life, where snipers are the most OP ever, unless they take an artillery hit, or you get around them, or avoid being seen, or get behind them unnoticed, or... But hey, it's unfair because if you do nothing of that, they can gank you before you gank them. So, you can't win. So, whining ensues.

And because of that, we can't have good things. We Bosmers players will end up with an entirely useless stealth detection bonus that has no use whatsoever in PvE as there are zero stealthed enemies, but hey, PvP whiners will stop whining. About that, they will soon find something else to complain about. And we PvE somewhat casual players will still be locked with a useless racial passive that breaks characters we spent years working on entirely.

anadandy

Uryel wrote: »

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

It's also more than that - Bosmer PVE questers are getting the shaft, whether they are thieves or not. There are entire quests and storylines built around sneaking outside of TG/DB. I was just playing through Morrowind last night and there is SO MUCH SNEAKING. Following runners without being caught, sneaking through restricted areas where the optional objective is to avoid killing anyone. Who better to do that job than a Bosmer? Nope - Bosmer can't be good at anything now but being roly poly pvp-ers, And even then, not too good because we don't want scare the gank-phobics.

Yes, yes - I know anyone can sneak, anyone can do these quests and I know there is some magical mystery stealth change coming but it still really rankles me that my Bosmer, who I specifically chose for a stealthy playstyle is being robbed of her identity and being pigeonholed into a one trick pony.

Cundu_Ertur

Uryel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

NOW they are, sure, but after this change, no. And I think Raven's asking what the Bosmer meta is after this ridiculous change goes in.

BlueRaven

Honest question:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Honest question:

Beyond the niche rolling PvP build. Are bosmers in the meta for anything else. Is there a pve reason to roll a Bosmer over an orc, etc?

The reason I ask is that all the dps passses I see either fail to mention bosmers or if the do it seems like it’s in passing.

I am just wondering if bosmers are a preferred race for, well, anything. Other then a weird pvp build, I guess.

Honest answer : they are amazing thieves, both lore-wise and gameplay wise. Gameplay wise, they make great assassins, too.

NOW they are, sure, but after this change, no. And I think Raven's asking what the Bosmer meta is after this ridiculous change goes in.

Yes, this. I guess I was not very clear on my question.

Uryel

My bad then. I guess they will be the least favorite for everything, then. Except maybe cliff jumping, with the fall damage reduction passive.

The fact that the flavour passive is way better than the third one that we actually need to spend skillpoints on says it all, really.

BlueRaven

Uryel wrote: »

My bad then. I guess they will be the least favorite for everything, then. Except maybe cliff jumping, with the fall damage reduction passive.

The fact that the flavour passive is way better than the third one that we actually need to spend skillpoints on says it all, really.

Exactly! The real Bosmer passive is the three extra skill points we get by not putting points into hunters eye. (Not that I needed skill points.)

Cundu_Ertur

You can put them in the Jewelry crafting hireling.
Oh, wait...

The_Lex

As I posted in another thread:

I'd like to know which developer was truly committed to the Elder Scrolls series and universe before coming to ESO. By committed, I mean, more than a few play-throughs of a game to catch the flavor of the series or because the game was "cool to play" when it was released. Some of these racial passives show zero basis in established lore. Sure, they can be "shoehorned" into lore somehow, but that's not the same thing. And the established lore surrounding racial abilities can be made to work with an MMO - so that's no excuse either.

Cundu_Ertur

Lex, I think the answer is none.

The_Lex

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Lex, I think the answer is none.

Sadly, I think you're right. Btw, I love your sig.

Shadowshire

Please clarify the two statements which I have italicized in the quoted context:

Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.

We want each race to have a similar rate of gaining power as you level up, and as such, we’ve restructured the unlock order of some passives. Less powerful passives will unlock first, while the larger more defining ones will unlock at later levels. Note that we’ll be refunding all of your racial skill points if you’ve already unlocked these passives. You will not need to unlock them again on characters you’ve already obtained them on.

The first statement, "refunding" the characters racial passive skill points is reasonable -- when the effects of one or more of the character's Racial Passives (R.P.) have changed, and perhaps the number of Ranks has changed, too. So the number of Skill Points required might not be the same as before. They must be re-allocated, and re-applied to increasing the respective Ranks of each R.P.

The second statement makes no sense whatsoever -- unless the player will no longer be required to expend any Skill Points to "unlock" and/or to increase the Rank of their character's R.P.s.

So, what is ZOS trying to say here?

EDIT:

As a closing note, we want to reiterate that all players will have a refund of all of their character’s racial passives if they’ve spent any, so remember to reallocate any points into these on your characters once the changes go live. We'll also be granting one free race change, per account.

Okay, that answers my initial question. However, what ZOS really should grant is one free Race Change for each player character that is at or above Level 50.

Given the inevitable bugs that will be introduced while implementing these changes in the megaserver host software, IMHO, ZOS should have left well enough alone. Whatever benefit a player might gain is going to have a cost in regard to software integrity, and to data integrity. We know that from experience.

Regardless, with respect to each of my four characters, changing their respective Race is probably not warranted for any particular one. If one or more of them will become less playable as they are in the role for which they are currently geared and skilled, then I don't see that changing their Race will improve their ability to survive and thrive.

That said, if ZOS believes that I will instead develop new characters for specific roles as tanks, DPS, or healers, then they need to think again. What they should realize is that when they mess with someone's investment of 4+ years of time and effort, then they risk losing that player entirely. Is it time to move on to some other game, ZOS?

Shadowshire

Hmmm .... if you're going to change a Racial Passive, what is the point to changing the effects of a basically flawed original design?

Argonian

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

IMHO, in principle, the only benefit which a character receives from consuming a Potion should be the effects of the Potion (of course!). First, consider the current framework and context of the buffs provided by foods, beverages, potions, and poisons:

• Foods temporarily increase the maximum amount of Health, Stamina, or Magicka (or a combination of two, or of all three, Attributes) that character has, i.e., while the food's buff is in effect during a relatively long timespan.
  
• Beverages temporarily increase the rate at which the character recovers Health, Stamina, or Magicka (or a combination of two, or of all three, recovery rates of their Attributes), that the character has lost or expended, for a relatively short time before the beverage's buff expires.
  
• All potions do not affect one or more of a character's Attributes, or their recovery rates. But many Potions restore Health, Magicka, or Stamina (or a combination of two, or of all three, Attributes) by a specifc amount(s) (respectively), and increase the corresponding recovery rate(s) by 20% for a short timespan.

Apparently, both the current and the revised Argonian Racial Passive replace the amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina which are restored by any Potion that an Argonian character consumes. Whether it also replaces Health, Magicka, and/or Stamina when the consumed potion does not affect any of those respective Attributes is unclear (I don't have the experience to know).

IMHO, there is no reason to replace the effects of any Potion with the effects of the Racial Passive (which are italicized in the quote above). Further, there is no rationale to restore Health, Stamina, and/or Magicka, respectively, if an effect of the consumed Potion does not do so.

Regardless, the best way to define a Racial Passive which affects the effects of Potions, is to design one that amplifies the actual effects of the specific Potion that the character consumes.

For example, when the character consumes a Potion that replaces lost Health, the Racial Passive can increase the replaced amount by adding a specific, constant amount to the Health replaced by the Potion. However, a constant increase will make a weaker Potion disproportionately stronger than it will strengthen a stronger Potion.

So, it would arguably be best to simply increase the amount of each Attribute that is restored (after consuming the Potion) by adding a percentage of the amount restored by the Potion to the total restored to the current value of the Attribute. The respective recovery rate for each such Attribute could also be increased, i.e., to a larger percentage.

Kalle_Demos

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett

The time, resources, and effort that went into these patches and it looks like all ZOS did was achieve the exact opposite of what they set out to do. What was the point? Throughout the process they acknowledged criticism on sweeping changes and player feedback but proceeded to enact sweeping changes and ignore player feedback anyway.

ZOS, What exactly were you trying to achieve here? Some key racials DO NOT have universal applicability. Not every race provides a completely unique gameplay element and this patch MADE THIS WORSE by GUTTING unique traits. Some races STILL provided more mathematical combat power than others.

The meta has shifted and now there are LESS competitive options. And many proposals clash with long established Lore. I hope that ZOS realizes this and takes a second and third look at the racial balance changes otherwise all this endeavor will have achieved is upsetting players of all stripes.

Shadowshire

An oversight (?):

Wood Elf

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
....

ZOS should also increase the Wood Elf Disease Restistance by 1485 (perhaps by a lesser amount?), too. Unless, of course, ZOS wants to remove it from the Wood Elf Racial Passive entirely.

Shadowshire

Perfectionist, here:

Dark Elf

Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.
Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Umm... what does Health have to do with Resist Flame? Move the increase to Max Health to the Dynamic Racial Passive, where it belongs with the increases to Max Stamina and to Max Magicka.

Sheesh, if you don't do it right, then when will you have time to do it over?

Shadowshire

The changes to the Nord Racial Passives are rather contrary to the developer's comments about the Nord race.

Nord

Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

Stalwart: the Max Stamina constant is a major nerf to every Nord Stamina build. That is, a build in which the Stamina Attribute amount allocated when the character is created is significantly more than amounts allocated to Health and to Magicka, respectively. Omitting any benefit to Health Recovery is also a significant nerf. Gaining 5 Ultimate when the character "takes damage" has nothing in particular to do with whether the character is resilient in combat!

Resist Frost: assuming that a Nord character has 25,000 Max Health, the current benefit increases it to 27,250, i.e., by 2,250. The new constant value of 1000 increase for Max Health is clearly another major nerf.

Whether the revision to Rugged compensates enough for the nerfs in Stalwart and Resist Frost is rather unclear. It probably depends upon whose combat model is used to evaluate and compare Builds. But it is what the megaserver does -- or does not do -- instead that determines the result of these changes, regardless.

In 4+ years of experience reading Patch Notes and other "documentation" for TESO, what is stated in writing -- even on the HUD Ability Bar tooltips -- is often evidently different from what the megaserver actually does. What the Patch Notes aver is often less important than what they do not disclose. There is many a slip between cup and lip.

Or, as my Father once told me, "If you believe about half of what you read, and even less of what you hear, you will be a wise man."

Malada

Hello everyone,

I've been with the game since just after release and this is my first time posting on these forums although I read thru them quite frequently.

Before I get started, let me thank you all for taking the time to read this and I hope this makes it way to someone willing to listen to my thoughts on the Bosmer changes. Maintained several Bosmer NB characters for the last 3 or 4 years, one for each Alliance. I believe the current edition of Bosmer changes are being rushed through and the Bosmer is not being given a fair consideration.

Right from the start, let me get this out of the way, out of the bag and say that not all of the Bosmer changes are bad. The 2k Fortified Stam and 258 Stam Regen I can live with. Although let's face it, you basically just converted those specs over from percentages to a stacked value, an estimation of what was for your new measurement system. Hard to get that wrong I guess although it does feel like Bosmer is getting (a little) shafted on Stam Regen, as the current Stam regen value of 21% is great and also makes them unique. The Bosmer doesn't have an Orc or Dunmer's dmg buff yet they don't really need them as that extra Stam Regen gives dmg in a different way, you see, helps make certain builds possible w/ Heavy Armor etc and makes them unique in this regard. However I do agree that 2x 129 Stam Regen buffs is still a big deal and there are many 5 pcs sets which grant that -and- the 2k Stam as well so it does seem Bosmer will still be strong in this regard, for now... until that gets nerfed later. Bow XP increase and Fall Damage is also fine way they are.

So what is the problem here? What brought me out of the shadows to finally come forward and post to this forum?

In this next segment, I really don't mean to be rude or disrespectful however I am kind of frustrated and I feel disrespected and this needs to be said and I owe it, oddly enough, to the hours spent over the years playing Bosmer to take a stand on this along with the few other Bosmer players.

I get the feeling that some of the people in charge of making these changes whether a project manager just put you in charge and threw this on your desk or dropped a baby in your lap or maybe this was an extension by design as you wanted to move to a new measurement system and throw out the percent passives for reasons, whoever however whatever decided on this I feel has left the door open to some problems. The fact we have several revisions -to the changes- and whatever the latest round of changes are is posted where ever all over the internet, indicates that maybe these were not thought out as well as they should have been.

The problem -I suspect- as far as our purpose here is concerned started when trying to clean up the similarities between Bosmer and Khajit. I've seen revisions of both races changes. First of all, it's the Khajit who should have the 3% or 5% Detection buff and the Bosmer who should have the 5% Stealth radius buff. Why? I will not repeat the entire story however I recommend reading, "The 5 Years War". In that story it depicts the Khajit as mainly infantry minded soldiers in Heavy or Medium armor w/ (ie Battle Cats) and several times the Bosmer Archers w/ Stealth tactics mentioned. In other games, like Skyrim, the Khajit are provided a night-site bonus while the Bosmer are always granted a bonus to Archery and other things like making animals your ally, poison resist etc.

So speaking of Archery, the Bosmer culture and factions commonly use the bow. One of the first things you discover in Skyrim is stealth attacks using the Bow. Point being, Stealth attacks and the bow go together like restoration magic and a staff or a sword and shield. In the current changes for Bosmer we have no Stealth attack bonus anymore, we have no stealth hidden radius buff, nothing. Instead you've replaced something lore friendly that worked, something that gave the Bosmer an edge to help compete with out races and replaced it with a move speed and penetration bonus when they... 'roll dodge'. I am not going to say how poetically ****ed this is and or it makes absolutely no ****ing sense, whatsoever so help me almighty God.

Let's stop and think about this. In lore, as Bow users the Bosmer ("Common Arms of Valenwood" or "The Black Arrow") do not just use a Bow like someone with no feel for marksman might fire a pistol. The bow is, you know like 'a part of them'. Ok and as such, being stealthy comes with that. Not being thieves. Let's not misunderstand form vs function. The Bosmer form is to function stealthily in order to use their Bows more effectively in ways that other cultures cannot emulate. The Khajit are shady figures who conduct elicit operations however many of them are merchants and infantrymen also. Does anyone get what I'm pointing out here?

Bosmer are not just using a Bow like someone might use a shovel, they are Masters of the Bow. And as such that makes them Master of Stealth or -at very least- Masters of using the Bow in Stealth attacks. Again, form vs function. If Khajit must have the Stealth radius buff, please give the Bosmer back our Stealth attack bonus. And get rid of that nonsense about using roll-dodge to have a move bonus and then gonna have a weapon penetration buff for however long, it just doens't make any sense. If you're practiced Mastering a Bow in the jungle then Stealth and a 10% move bonus does not add up. Furthermore, if you're a Hunter at all... again Stealth is your game not moving a little faster. Besides, that move bonus will be so subtle and so bogged down by lag no one will care.

Another thing to, you are penalizing the Bosmer stam bonuses thru that roll dodge. Roll Dodge ain't cheap. Every time we have to roll Dodge, (costs stam) to gain... a move speed bonus, which costs stam and then we get a pen bonus? It don't make no sense. As if you didn't know, most decent players are going to do their own research about Weapon penetration amounts and that will be 'settled' before they go off into PvP. See? You're not helping at all giving the Bosmer a pen bonus that will likely end up going over the penetration ceiling and going to waste anyways.

Does anybody get what I am saying? The Bosmer penetration bonus is a wash. That move speed bonus will never be used effectively either because of the lag and the fact you have to roll Dodge to get the ability to move faster burning stam you already don't have from stam bonus resources meant for other purposes.

Whew! I know that was alot. Please consider restoring Bosmer Stealth Attack Bonus and maybe the 5m Stealth radius buff also. We really do not need the 3% Detect Bonus, the 10% move speed bonus and esp the lousy 1k penetration bonus. Thank you.

BlueRaven

Malada wrote: »

Hello everyone,

I've been with the game since just after release and this is my first time posting on these forums although I read thru them quite frequently.

Before I get started, let me thank you all for taking the time to read this and I hope this makes it way to someone willing to listen to my thoughts on the Bosmer changes. Maintained several Bosmer NB characters for the last 3 or 4 years, one for each Alliance. I believe the current edition of Bosmer changes are being rushed through and the Bosmer is not being given a fair consideration.

Right from the start, let me get this out of the way, out of the bag and say that not all of the Bosmer changes are bad. The 2k Fortified Stam and 258 Stam Regen I can live with. Although let's face it, you basically just converted those specs over from percentages to a stacked value, an estimation of what was for your new measurement system. Hard to get that wrong I guess although it does feel like Bosmer is getting (a little) shafted on Stam Regen, as the current Stam regen value of 21% is great and also makes them unique. The Bosmer doesn't have an Orc or Dunmer's dmg buff yet they don't really need them as that extra Stam Regen gives dmg in a different way, you see, helps make certain builds possible w/ Heavy Armor etc and makes them unique in this regard. However I do agree that 2x 129 Stam Regen buffs is still a big deal and there are many 5 pcs sets which grant that -and- the 2k Stam as well so it does seem Bosmer will still be strong in this regard, for now... until that gets nerfed later. Bow XP increase and Fall Damage is also fine way they are.

So what is the problem here? What brought me out of the shadows to finally come forward and post to this forum?

In this next segment, I really don't mean to be rude or disrespectful however I am kind of frustrated and I feel disrespected and this needs to be said and I owe it, oddly enough, to the hours spent over the years playing Bosmer to take a stand on this along with the few other Bosmer players.

I get the feeling that some of the people in charge of making these changes whether a project manager just put you in charge and threw this on your desk or dropped a baby in your lap or maybe this was an extension by design as you wanted to move to a new measurement system and throw out the percent passives for reasons, whoever however whatever decided on this I feel has left the door open to some problems. The fact we have several revisions -to the changes- and whatever the latest round of changes are is posted where ever all over the internet, indicates that maybe these were not thought out as well as they should have been.

The problem -I suspect- as far as our purpose here is concerned started when trying to clean up the similarities between Bosmer and Khajit. I've seen revisions of both races changes. First of all, it's the Khajit who should have the 3% or 5% Detection buff and the Bosmer who should have the 5% Stealth radius buff. Why? I will not repeat the entire story however I recommend reading, "The 5 Years War". In that story it depicts the Khajit as mainly infantry minded soldiers in Heavy or Medium armor w/ (ie Battle Cats) and several times the Bosmer Archers w/ Stealth tactics mentioned. In other games, like Skyrim, the Khajit are provided a night-site bonus while the Bosmer are always granted a bonus to Archery and other things like making animals your ally, poison resist etc.

So speaking of Archery, the Bosmer culture and factions commonly use the bow. One of the first things you discover in Skyrim is stealth attacks using the Bow. Point being, Stealth attacks and the bow go together like restoration magic and a staff or a sword and shield. In the current changes for Bosmer we have no Stealth attack bonus anymore, we have no stealth hidden radius buff, nothing. Instead you've replaced something lore friendly that worked, something that gave the Bosmer an edge to help compete with out races and replaced it with a move speed and penetration bonus when they... 'roll dodge'. I am not going to say how poetically ****ed this is and or it makes absolutely no ****ing sense, whatsoever so help me almighty God.

Let's stop and think about this. In lore, as Bow users the Bosmer ("Common Arms of Valenwood" or "The Black Arrow") do not just use a Bow like someone with no feel for marksman might fire a pistol. The bow is, you know like 'a part of them'. Ok and as such, being stealthy comes with that. Not being thieves. Let's not misunderstand form vs function. The Bosmer form is to function stealthily in order to use their Bows more effectively in ways that other cultures cannot emulate. The Khajit are shady figures who conduct elicit operations however many of them are merchants and infantrymen also. Does anyone get what I'm pointing out here?

Bosmer are not just using a Bow like someone might use a shovel, they are Masters of the Bow. And as such that makes them Master of Stealth or -at very least- Masters of using the Bow in Stealth attacks. Again, form vs function. If Khajit must have the Stealth radius buff, please give the Bosmer back our Stealth attack bonus. And get rid of that nonsense about using roll-dodge to have a move bonus and then gonna have a weapon penetration buff for however long, it just doens't make any sense. If you're practiced Mastering a Bow in the jungle then Stealth and a 10% move bonus does not add up. Furthermore, if you're a Hunter at all... again Stealth is your game not moving a little faster. Besides, that move bonus will be so subtle and so bogged down by lag no one will care.

Another thing to, you are penalizing the Bosmer stam bonuses thru that roll dodge. Roll Dodge ain't cheap. Every time we have to roll Dodge, (costs stam) to gain... a move speed bonus, which costs stam and then we get a pen bonus? It don't make no sense. As if you didn't know, most decent players are going to do their own research about Weapon penetration amounts and that will be 'settled' before they go off into PvP. See? You're not helping at all giving the Bosmer a pen bonus that will likely end up going over the penetration ceiling and going to waste anyways.

Does anybody get what I am saying? The Bosmer penetration bonus is a wash. That move speed bonus will never be used effectively either because of the lag and the fact you have to roll Dodge to get the ability to move faster burning stam you already don't have from stam bonus resources meant for other purposes.

Whew! I know that was alot. Please consider restoring Bosmer Stealth Attack Bonus and maybe the 5m Stealth radius buff also. We really do not need the 3% Detect Bonus, the 10% move speed bonus and esp the lousy 1k penetration bonus. Thank you.

Amazing!!!! Well written and well thought out!