Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

F1thyphil

I am happy to see the skill points are being refunded, but 1 free race change per account is really a fair offer. You are making changes to all the characters on an account, so why not grant 1 race change per character?

BlueRaven

F1thyphil wrote: »

I am happy to see the skill points are being refunded, but 1 free race change per account is really a fair offer. You are making changes to all the characters on an account, so why not grant 1 race change per character?

They actually changed it to three race changes, but I can hardly care at this point. The changes to my toons is just depressing.

flyniecom79

I have 10 toons and spent about €1000 on this game in the last year. 3 argonians 3 dark elfs 2 highelfs 2 breton 1 wood elf. These passive changes *** 8 of my toons i think its time to find new game. Zos getting too greedy like rockstar

XomRhoK

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam
Some comments about 4.3.2 patch.

Redguard
Martial Training: Added a bonus that reduces the effectiveness of Snares applied to you by up to 15%.
Developer Comment:
While we're relatively happy with the performance and identity of the Redguard race, we noticed they lacked that unique flavor or story piece in their passives that helped add a little something different. Due to their training in battle and ability to flow in combat, we decided to help them retain some of their fluidity by granting a small reduction to snare potency

I think that reduced effectiveness of Snares more fit to Argonians, they were more athletic in previous TES games and their homeland is swamp, that promotes progress of this skill.
If you want to give Redguards something unique then faster ressurection speed of player and allies can work. As far as i know, they have contact with ancestors and spirits so it can work. Or it will fit Dunmers more? Anyway it will have some use in group PvP and PvE

Breton
Spell Attunement: The Spell Resistance granted by this effect will now be doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.
Developer Comment:
While Bretons had been brought up to speed with our other races with our first round of changes, we still felt the story or unique element to be missing. We added a small contextual flavor bonus on their Spell Attunement passive to help highlight their ability to shrug off magical attacks.

This addition to the passive feels strange. It adds more strange element then unique. Hard to describe, its seems some kind of illogical or inconsistent.

Wood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.

Speed maybe fits Wood elves, but roll dodges and bonus damage after fits Khajiits more, they were know as good acrobats.
Also as far as i know, Wood elves were better at sneak in previous games than Khajiits, but now you want to take this away complitely from Wood elves, that not good.

Gilvoth

.

Uryel

marius_buys wrote: »

High Elf Changes in PTS 4.3.2
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

Allright, so if I get that right, an Altmer who specialises in magicka will restore stamina. And if for some reason someone specialised their Altmer in stamina, they would restore magicka ?

That's absolutely silly. It's like they're forcing Altmers to become hybrids, without anything else in the game working in favor of hybrids. Personnally, I'll play a hybrid when ALL class and weapon skills will offer both a stamina and a magicka morph... As of today it's pretty inefficient.

BlueRaven

Uryel wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

High Elf Changes in PTS 4.3.2
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

Allright, so if I get that right, an Altmer who specialises in magicka will restore stamina. And if for some reason someone specialised their Altmer in stamina, they would restore magicka ?

That's absolutely silly. It's like they're forcing Altmers to become hybrids, without anything else in the game working in favor of hybrids. Personnally, I'll play a hybrid when ALL class and weapon skills will offer both a stamina and a magicka morph... As of today it's pretty inefficient.

This passive is just weird. What utility does this bring? Allowing mages to regain stamina after a block?

spiralvin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

High Elf Changes in PTS 4.3.2
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

Allright, so if I get that right, an Altmer who specialises in magicka will restore stamina. And if for some reason someone specialised their Altmer in stamina, they would restore magicka ?

That's absolutely silly. It's like they're forcing Altmers to become hybrids, without anything else in the game working in favor of hybrids. Personnally, I'll play a hybrid when ALL class and weapon skills will offer both a stamina and a magicka morph... As of today it's pretty inefficient.

This passive is just weird. What utility does this bring? Allowing mages to regain stamina after a block?

Altmer Magsorc in AD to another player in Cyrodiil: "Someone! Quick! Give me an orb!!1!1"

Other dude: "Why?"

Altmer Magsorc: "So that I can roll away and reposition myself and wait for my Magicka to return before I can do anything else "

max_only

Well shards (the damage one is used more than the resourceful one these days) and orbs restore the highest resource. So if you needed your lowest resource and you weren’t getting it through synergies then Altmer will get it through their racial passive. The only time this comes up for me is when I’m tanking and I keep getting filled on my highest resource (usually stamina) but I need some help on my lowest so I can apply buffs or ranged taunt (magicka only).

MotokoHutt

I am allot more happy with the direction that the Orc Passives are heading in however I still feel like the dev's at ZOS dont't actually pay attention to the lore at all. I don't mean that in an offensive way, I just want them to preserve the lore.

Looking from an Orc main player point of view with the Brawny and Unflinhcing Rage passives I would say the second pass is way better then the first, but the Swift Warrior passive is and always has been completely bunk. Since you are trying to push the hybrid play style with the Khajiit and Dunmer racial passives it seems pretty silly to give the same 258 damage amount to 2 diferent races but in 2 halves. Before you say well Orc's get reduced sprint cost and increased sprint speed, ok I get that but this is a great segway to lead me into my lore point.

You seem to be pushing this narative of Orc's as raging babarians with your statement "their identity as berserkers or shock troops" but Orc's are more a kin to a battlefield Juggernaut. A Orc doesnt run too combat nor do they run away from it, an Orc IS the battle, where they are is where the combat comences. The Swift Warrior passive just makes Orc's into a PvP hit and run guerrilla warfare race which if anything suits the Argonian lore much better if anything. On top of that fact making Orc's faster then by the lore stated the fastest and most nimble race IE the khajiit to quote a famous youtuber "makes no god damn sense".

Look Zos, let me real talk you here. Your developing a game that already has an established lore, your not making some brand new game where you can just make the lore as you go along because THIS is an elder scrolls game. So please stop pushing this Orc supposed berserker identity, just because someone can go into a berserker rage does not make them a berserker. Nord's are known for going into drunken stoopers but does that mean there racial identity should be that there all alchoholic's ? Should we now force all Nord players to use the drunken personality ? What your doing ZOS is literally taking the stereotype propagated by other races and making it the "racial identity". Does that mean we shoud now make Argonians racials completely based around being slaves? Or should we make Khajiit racials completely based around being drugged out merchants? You see where I am going with this? The berserker rage is just 1 small part of the Orcish strongsuit, NOT a racial identity. It would be more apropriate to make "Berserker Rage" the passive instead of "Swift Warrior" and make that 1 passive reflect that part of the Orc race.

Honestly I would be happy for you to take our Orc sprint bonus away and give it to khajiit's, obviously not all orc's may share that sentiment but I come from a lore perspective. I am not sure any khajiit would complain about actually being the fastest race in ESO like they should be ether. However that is all based on IF Orc's got something of equal value in return. Something that actually suits our core racial mantra as the pariah folk hell bent on carving out our own lores and way of life in an unacepting world. I also think you giving us extra weapon damage is cool and all, but I think your taking this berserker thing in the wrong direction. wouldnt it make much more sense for Orc's to get more damage when taking damage or some interesting racial mechanic ? just a thought.

So TLDR: I like the new passive changes, however I still think your missing the ball lore wise. Also, please junk Swift Warrior and give us something actually new and interesting.

Deathlord92

I still like the idea of morphing racial passives I love what you guys are doing but I love my Breton stamblade and I’m only ever gonna play Breton stamblade if I play anything else it will be Breton stam build I tried magblade I suck at it also really hard to survive on pls consider the idea 😊

Uryel

MotokoHutt wrote: »

Your developing a game that already has an established lore, your not making some brand new game where you can just make the lore as you go along because THIS is an elder scrolls game. So please stop pushing this Orc supposed berserker identity, just because someone can go into a berserker rage does not make them a berserker. Nord's are known for going into drunken stoopers but does that mean there racial identity should be that there all alchoholic's ? Should we now force all Nord players to use the drunken personality ? What your doing ZOS is literally taking the stereotype propagated by other races and making it the "racial identity". Does that mean we shoud now make Argonians racials completely based around being slaves? Or should we make Khajiit racials completely based around being drugged out merchants? You see where I am going with this?

I'd say, we're going to the point where Bosmers are hunters so they should detect hidden stuff even though said hidden stuff doesn't even exist in the game, and make them as stealthy as Orcs or Nords, because obviously the race that has been the stealthiest both in lore and previous game is suddenly not supposed to be stealthy at all. Also, the hunter stereotype is all wrong, as the hunter is hidden and the prey isn't.

We're in the same boat, bro.

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I tried magblade I suck at it also really hard to survive on

Not the best place to discuss it, but if you find it hard to survive as a Breton magblade, there is something you're doing wrong. Magblade has TONS of survival tools, and Bretons have the highest magicka sustain of the game, so you're never going to run out of magicka to use those tools that keep you alive. Also, IIRC, you're also a vampire, which means you litterally have skills to suck the life out of enemies to replenish your own. Top that with a set that enhances sustain and survival, like the Withered hand set, and you're pretty much going to run laughing into a pack of mobs, and then into the next, and then into the next.

That's what my Dunmer Mablade vampire does, anyway. And just for the added weirdness, she uses a Nirnhoned restoration staff as her main offensive weapon. Her DPS is really sub-par, but she's unstopable, since even charging her attacks to refill magicka will also heal her slightly.

If that is of interest to you, send me a private message, so I don't derail this thread any further, and I'll tell you what skills and gear shes uses

Deathlord92

Plus I been playing stamblade since co another reason I struggled so much on magblade

Uryel wrote: »

MotokoHutt wrote: »

Your developing a game that already has an established lore, your not making some brand new game where you can just make the lore as you go along because THIS is an elder scrolls game. So please stop pushing this Orc supposed berserker identity, just because someone can go into a berserker rage does not make them a berserker. Nord's are known for going into drunken stoopers but does that mean there racial identity should be that there all alchoholic's ? Should we now force all Nord players to use the drunken personality ? What your doing ZOS is literally taking the stereotype propagated by other races and making it the "racial identity". Does that mean we shoud now make Argonians racials completely based around being slaves? Or should we make Khajiit racials completely based around being drugged out merchants? You see where I am going with this?

I'd say, we're going to the point where Bosmers are hunters so they should detect hidden stuff even though said hidden stuff doesn't even exist in the game, and make them as stealthy as Orcs or Nords, because obviously the race that has been the stealthiest both in lore and previous game is suddenly not supposed to be stealthy at all. Also, the hunter stereotype is all wrong, as the hunter is hidden and the prey isn't.

We're in the same boat, bro.

Deathlord92 wrote: »

I tried magblade I suck at it also really hard to survive on

Not the best place to discuss it, but if you find it hard to survive as a Breton magblade, there is something you're doing wrong. Magblade has TONS of survival tools, and Bretons have the highest magicka sustain of the game, so you're never going to run out of magicka to use those tools that keep you alive. Also, IIRC, you're also a vampire, which means you litterally have skills to suck the life out of enemies to replenish your own. Top that with a set that enhances sustain and survival, like the Withered hand set, and you're pretty much going to run laughing into a pack of mobs, and then into the next, and then into the next.

That's what my Dunmer Mablade vampire does, anyway. And just for the added weirdness, she uses a Nirnhoned restoration staff as her main offensive weapon. Her DPS is really sub-par, but she's unstopable, since even charging her attacks to refill magicka will also heal her slightly.

If that is of interest to you, send me a private message, so I don't derail this thread any further, and I'll tell you what skills and gear shes uses

Thx m8 I like add in from a pvp point view I like pvp as much as pve my damage awesome my sustain absolutely 100% no problem it’s when I get group players on me or I’m against a really good stamplar on a stamblade I shred esy look at my yt on a magblade I’m just dead very fast

max_only

Sci-fi and fantasy as genres have an “internal logic” that must be followed within their universe to continue being plausible. Any aberration to that invites justified critique.

https://film.avclub.com/why-fiction-s-freest-genres-need-its-most-rigid-rules-1798228448

Some relevant quotes:

The problem with pulling this kind of thing the wrong way in a speculative-fiction story is that science fiction, fantasy, and horror don’t necessarily share mainstream fiction’s baseline expectations for how reality works, and it’s far too easy to leave audiences feeling cheated, annoyed, or just plain confused when the rules change abruptly, or were ill-defined in the first place.
So: Establish rules and then don’t break them. Seems obvious enough, right? Not really, given how few science-fiction/fantasy/horror films manage to do it right. As mentioned earlier, it’s harder for films to establish strange new worlds without a lot of clumsy exposition.

We have a lot of exposition already, there are 5 other games worth of exposition.

After a certain point, they become like any other rules for how the world works: They establish a basic framework for understanding and shaping a meaningful story.
Essentially, in the real world, people have to deal with the basic truths about how the world functions, whether they’re dealing with the law of gravity or common human motivations. The act of contending with limitations and figuring out how to work around and within them is inherently dramatic, and imminently relatable—everyone in the world has at some point been up against some force that prevented them from getting exactly what they wanted at all times. The hard part for storytellers in speculative fiction is figuring out what the rules should be, then getting them across to the audience clearly and convincingly. And then not breaking those rules for the sake of a moment, even if it would really, really startle people if they did. Speculative fiction makes up its own rules, and relies on its audience’s goodwill and suspension of disbelief to make an inherently unreal world feel real enough to be convincing. Breaking internal rules—or worse, lazily never bothering to set them up in the first place—is the easiest possible way to cut the cords and send that disbelief crashing to the ground.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler and even though he’s leaving one last @ZOS_Lawrence_Schick

Again:
not breaking those rules for the sake of a moment

relies on its audience’s goodwill and suspension of disbelief to make an inherently unreal world feel real

Breaking internal rules is the easiest possible way to cut the cords and send that disbelief crashing to the ground.

IV_Deity

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Redguard


[*]Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

Ummm....weapon abilities??? Really?? I'm not a bow user, so now I just lost 9 percent stamina recovery and have a useless passive. Thanks a lot. Please revert this, I'd rather have some overall sustain.

Uryel

IV_Deity wrote: »

Ummm....weapon abilities??? Really?? I'm not a bow user, so now I just lost 9 percent stamina recovery and have a useless passive. Thanks a lot. Please revert this, I'd rather have some overall sustain.

Actually, weapon abilities means any weapon skill... And also, only weapon skills. Swords, bows, whatever, but not class skills. So, -8% cost instead of +9% regen, I think it's actually a buff. You get very little regen per second compared to the actual cost of skills...

But it's a buff only if you use alot of weapon skills. So, as we could hazve foreseen, it's not "opening more options", it's "restricting options". Use weapons, Redguard, we don't want you as stam sorcerers or even stam nightblades.

Now, the question is, do ZOS lie to us about their intent, or are they simply oblivious of the mess they are creating ? There is another option, though. Since the Maths Team has a new boss, it's probable that he, like every new boss in every company in the world, simply want to change stuff for the sake of changing, to prove he's in charge...

Gnortranermara

@ZOS_Gilliam, any comment on Spell Recharge?

We are all very disturbed that this change even made it past internal review to PTS in the first place.
1) It destroys Altmer identity. Altmer is a Magicka DPS race, and those of us invested in our Altmer want all passives to continue contributing to that core goal. We picked a pure Magicka race for a reason and don't want our choices changed retroactively against our will.
2) The theoretical use of the passive as "PvP utility" is a niche use that goes to waste in dungeons. PvP'ers can slot a stam absorb glyph or similar tool if they need a bit of stam recovery. For the rest of Altmer, it's a wasted passive.
3) Several other races have multistat regen passives, which could've easily been done here instead of the total highway robbery we got hit with. If lowering our regen was so important, we could've been given ~350 Magicka and Stamina instead, for instance, but instead it feel like a giant "eff you" from the company. That's really not much, given the 6 sec cooldown.
4) Even if "utility" is a goal the company is going to stick with here, the loss of our mainstat recovery need more compensation than this. Consider adding Disease Resistance. It fits the lore dating back to Oblivion (useful because if negates some sources of Defile).

This all seems quite obvious, so from our perspective this really hurt our confidence in the new team. We don't have access to internal testing though, and only see external tests, which probably skews perception a bit. Some sort of sensible explanation of what the heck the devs were thinking could go a long way in restoring some confidence. I just want to know they had some kind of reason beyond throwing crap against the wall and seeing what sticks. In the absence of an explanation, that's what it looks like to us.

Uryel

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam, any comment on Spell Recharge?

Or on the nonsense that is removing stealth from the Bosmers ? Or, actually, any comment at all ?

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

This all seems quite obvious, so from our perspective this really hurt our confidence in the new team.

Because you had any in the first place ? This update reeks of PvP, spits on the lore, pretends to both equalize and retain sthe old stuff, which is impossible (to equalize, you have to throw the old stuff out the window)... All that on the ill concieved idea that equalizing is needed.

What makes a character good and fun to play is that they are good in what you chose them for, and have flaws in other areas. Anyone who played pen and paper RPG with a dungeon master that was a storyteller rather than a battle lord will tell you that the flaws of their characters were as amusing as their strength. It can even be amusing to create a character by starting from a flaw you want it to have.

"Equalizing" is the exact opposite. It's removing all flavour, all fragrance, and leaving a stale, bland substract you can mold but without any soul. It's the difference between a hearty meal, that will both enchant you and leave you feeling way too inflated and belly-aching (pun intended), and that odorless, tasteless goo they eat in the Clockwork City, that has all the nutritive properties you need to remain healthy, but has no interest whatsoever aside from its nutritive qualities.

Kalle_Demos

I agree with the last few posters concerning the questionable choices made regarding racial balancing, the change to the Bosmer are especially egregious. Many players chose them specifically because of the play style they enable, not only in ESO but previous ES games. Not everyone plays PVP and there are many players that prefer stealth and RPing to damage, I don't understand why you are willing to place all of that on a chopping block especially when it's contrary to the goals you laid out. ZOS, you have a mantra of 'play the way you want' but some of the proposed balance directly contradict that statement as well as lore and racial identity on multiple fronts.

Wolfchild07

IV_Deity wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Redguard


[*]Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

Ummm....weapon abilities??? Really?? I'm not a bow user, so now I just lost 9 percent stamina recovery and have a useless passive. Thanks a lot. Please revert this, I'd rather have some overall sustain.

It's a nerf to werewolves also. Both weapon ability and class ability passives are.

lokulin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

marius_buys wrote: »

High Elf Changes in PTS 4.3.2
Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

Allright, so if I get that right, an Altmer who specialises in magicka will restore stamina. And if for some reason someone specialised their Altmer in stamina, they would restore magicka ?

That's absolutely silly. It's like they're forcing Altmers to become hybrids, without anything else in the game working in favor of hybrids. Personnally, I'll play a hybrid when ALL class and weapon skills will offer both a stamina and a magicka morph... As of today it's pretty inefficient.

This passive is just weird. What utility does this bring? Allowing mages to regain stamina after a block?

I think they want force altmer sorcs to use the crappy dark deal skill as a sustain mechanism. I can't think of anything else. It would be fine if the skill was uninterruptible instant cast like other classes have.

method__01

any of the "developer" team can log in Cyro now and tell us if he can weapon swap
than come here and explain to us scrubs,how he will roll dodge,fire bow and then run all this in 1 sec

peacenote

This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

Just two examples:

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.

Inig0 wrote: »

ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

You are directly costing your player base money and time.

The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:

1. Lore
2. Looks
3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]

NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.

peacenote

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.

I just want to comment on this, specifically. I wonder about the fact that this was the first point made in this post....

Many of us have already picked our race/class combinations. Many of us are not in a situation where we wish we could change our races/classes, or are excited about paying ZOS for the privilege of doing so.

Most of us like what we've chosen, use our characters for specific reasons, and are just in a situation where we don't want others in a different race/class to be able to significantly outperform us in our chosen role solely due to his or her racial passives, especially when said passives were buffed by other game changes which occurred after we chose our particular class/role.

I hope that the game community is growing, and making things better for people first choosing what they want to do in ESO is not a bad goal, but I wouldn't think this should be the #1 focus of racial passive changes.

There is a big difference between the problem you stated, and what I stated. New players are not coming to the game saying "wow, these passives sure are limiting." People who ask for balance changes are experienced players and that is probably the most important perspective when thinking about racial passives. I can't imagine that anyone would refuse to try ESO because of the perception of racial passives, but I sure can imagine lots of people quitting ESO if the changes make them feel like they can no longer be the race they have chosen and enjoyed for years.

moonsugar66

peacenote wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.

...

Most of us like what we've chosen, use our characters for specific reasons, and are just in a situation where we don't want others in a different race/class to be able to significantly outperform us in our chosen role solely due to his or her racial passives, especially when said passives were buffed by other game changes which occurred after we chose our particular class/role.
...

I'm one of those people. I have 10 CP810 characters - one of each race. I was very satisfied with them. I repeat what I said in another thread: I resent being forced to change characters because of someone's whimsical "lore" based change. The reasoning sounds very flimsy. It does not sound balanced at all.

Deathlord92

peacenote wrote: »

This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

Just two examples:

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.

Inig0 wrote: »

ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

You are directly costing your player base money and time.

The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:

1. Lore
2. Looks
3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]

NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.

I would so love to have stam racial passives for my Breton stamblade this would make me very happy something I have wanted for long time please consider it zos I know it’s hard to please everyone

Sylianwe

Excited to see some of these changes. Thank you for taking the time to work on this.

DragonMind1st

I like to play Argonians because I like reptiles, dragons mostly.

When I first heard they would be making race changes I was like a kid excitedly thinking "This is going to be interesting to see how they will change things...", it was NOT!

I would say the changes to the Argonians are far from positive in my opinion, they nerfed healing passive greatly ...no I actually do not run a healing build which is why it is a nerf, since they removed the incoming heal bonus from that passive.

...and then I thought, okay, maybe we will get away with that awful potion gulping mechanic and get something better, because I never had the use for additionally healing or Mag/Stam recovery when gulping a potion. I like to make builds that don't rely on gulping potions, which just makes this more awful ...if possible. Nope did get lucky to have that one changed.

I do agree with peacenotes post #1704 above, it would be nice if the racials was a bit more flexible, not super broad, but enough that you more likely could tailor it to the build you were making or already have(for existing characters) ...likely with morphs, since they already got that mechanic in it, but there is other ways this could be done as well.

Ysbriel

When i t comes to Nord though the explanation sounds nice, the new ulti generation passive does not make sense.
if we go by past game stats the identity of the Nord is to be a warrior both sturdy and adept in weapons.

TES: Dagerfall

Nord males
+10 Strength
+10 Endurance
-10 Intelligence
-10 Willpower
-10 Agility

Nord females

+10 Luck
-10 Intelligence

TES: Battlespire:

Axe +10
Blunt Weapon +10
Critical Strike +10
Long Blade +5
Short Blade +5
Missile +5

TES: Morrowind:

Axe +10
Blunt Weapon +10
Heavy Armor +5
Medium Armor +10
Long Blade +10
Spear +5

Woad (Shield + 30 points for 60 seconds on self)
Thunder Fist (Frost Damage 25 points on Touch)
Immune to Frost – Resist Frost 100%
Resist Shock 50%

TES: Oblivion:
Male Female
Agility +0 +0
Endurance +10 +0
Intelligence -10 -10
Luck +0 +0
Personality -10 -10
Speed +0 +0
Strength +10 +10
Willpower -10 +0

Nordic Frost - Frost Damage 50 points on touch
Woad - Shield 30 points for 60 seconds on self.
Resist Frost 50 points.

TES: Skyrim

+10 Two-Handed (25)
+5 Block (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 One-Handed (20)
+5 Smithing (20)
+5 Speech (20)

Battle Cry: Target flees for 30 seconds.
Resist Frost: Your Nord blood gives you 50% resistance to frost.


Now in two representations of the Nord class they have a frost damage bonus but as you can see in all
examples above the constant besides the resistance, is the bonus to what can be translated in TESO as weapon damage, where is the weapon damage in our TESO Nords?

Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Should be : Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 Increases your Weapon Damage by 258 Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

in one simple line that represents the Nords identity from all games and the definition of being a Stalwart in one simple package without the ulti passive.

Stalwart: 1 marked by outstanding strength and vigor of body, mind, or spirit - Merriam Webster
2. strong and well-built; sturdy; robust - Collins dictionary
3. Strongly built and sturdy - Oxford dictionary.

hakan

Make it so racial passives dont have any DPS, Tanking, or Healing advantage but add some flavourful, utility based ones? Redguards snare passive reduction is a good example.