Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

method__01

any of the "developer" team can log in Cyro now and tell us if he can weapon swap
than come here and explain to us scrubs,how he will roll dodge,fire bow and then run all this in 1 sec

peacenote

This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

Just two examples:

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.

Inig0 wrote: »

ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

You are directly costing your player base money and time.

The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:

1. Lore
2. Looks
3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]

NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.

peacenote

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.

I just want to comment on this, specifically. I wonder about the fact that this was the first point made in this post....

Many of us have already picked our race/class combinations. Many of us are not in a situation where we wish we could change our races/classes, or are excited about paying ZOS for the privilege of doing so.

Most of us like what we've chosen, use our characters for specific reasons, and are just in a situation where we don't want others in a different race/class to be able to significantly outperform us in our chosen role solely due to his or her racial passives, especially when said passives were buffed by other game changes which occurred after we chose our particular class/role.

I hope that the game community is growing, and making things better for people first choosing what they want to do in ESO is not a bad goal, but I wouldn't think this should be the #1 focus of racial passive changes.

There is a big difference between the problem you stated, and what I stated. New players are not coming to the game saying "wow, these passives sure are limiting." People who ask for balance changes are experienced players and that is probably the most important perspective when thinking about racial passives. I can't imagine that anyone would refuse to try ESO because of the perception of racial passives, but I sure can imagine lots of people quitting ESO if the changes make them feel like they can no longer be the race they have chosen and enjoyed for years.

moonsugar66

peacenote wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Right now there are a lack of effective options in picking your race/class combination.

...

Most of us like what we've chosen, use our characters for specific reasons, and are just in a situation where we don't want others in a different race/class to be able to significantly outperform us in our chosen role solely due to his or her racial passives, especially when said passives were buffed by other game changes which occurred after we chose our particular class/role.
...

I'm one of those people. I have 10 CP810 characters - one of each race. I was very satisfied with them. I repeat what I said in another thread: I resent being forced to change characters because of someone's whimsical "lore" based change. The reasoning sounds very flimsy. It does not sound balanced at all.

Deathlord92

peacenote wrote: »

This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

Just two examples:

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.

Inig0 wrote: »

ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

You are directly costing your player base money and time.

The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:

1. Lore
2. Looks
3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]

NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.

I would so love to have stam racial passives for my Breton stamblade this would make me very happy something I have wanted for long time please consider it zos I know it’s hard to please everyone

Sylianwe

Excited to see some of these changes. Thank you for taking the time to work on this.

DragonMind1st

I like to play Argonians because I like reptiles, dragons mostly.

When I first heard they would be making race changes I was like a kid excitedly thinking "This is going to be interesting to see how they will change things...", it was NOT!

I would say the changes to the Argonians are far from positive in my opinion, they nerfed healing passive greatly ...no I actually do not run a healing build which is why it is a nerf, since they removed the incoming heal bonus from that passive.

...and then I thought, okay, maybe we will get away with that awful potion gulping mechanic and get something better, because I never had the use for additionally healing or Mag/Stam recovery when gulping a potion. I like to make builds that don't rely on gulping potions, which just makes this more awful ...if possible. Nope did get lucky to have that one changed.

I do agree with peacenotes post #1704 above, it would be nice if the racials was a bit more flexible, not super broad, but enough that you more likely could tailor it to the build you were making or already have(for existing characters) ...likely with morphs, since they already got that mechanic in it, but there is other ways this could be done as well.

Ysbriel

When i t comes to Nord though the explanation sounds nice, the new ulti generation passive does not make sense.
if we go by past game stats the identity of the Nord is to be a warrior both sturdy and adept in weapons.

TES: Dagerfall

Nord males
+10 Strength
+10 Endurance
-10 Intelligence
-10 Willpower
-10 Agility

Nord females

+10 Luck
-10 Intelligence

TES: Battlespire:

Axe +10
Blunt Weapon +10
Critical Strike +10
Long Blade +5
Short Blade +5
Missile +5

TES: Morrowind:

Axe +10
Blunt Weapon +10
Heavy Armor +5
Medium Armor +10
Long Blade +10
Spear +5

Woad (Shield + 30 points for 60 seconds on self)
Thunder Fist (Frost Damage 25 points on Touch)
Immune to Frost – Resist Frost 100%
Resist Shock 50%

TES: Oblivion:
Male Female
Agility +0 +0
Endurance +10 +0
Intelligence -10 -10
Luck +0 +0
Personality -10 -10
Speed +0 +0
Strength +10 +10
Willpower -10 +0

Nordic Frost - Frost Damage 50 points on touch
Woad - Shield 30 points for 60 seconds on self.
Resist Frost 50 points.

TES: Skyrim

+10 Two-Handed (25)
+5 Block (20)
+5 Light Armor (20)
+5 One-Handed (20)
+5 Smithing (20)
+5 Speech (20)

Battle Cry: Target flees for 30 seconds.
Resist Frost: Your Nord blood gives you 50% resistance to frost.


Now in two representations of the Nord class they have a frost damage bonus but as you can see in all
examples above the constant besides the resistance, is the bonus to what can be translated in TESO as weapon damage, where is the weapon damage in our TESO Nords?

Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Should be : Stalwart: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500 Increases your Weapon Damage by 258 Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

in one simple line that represents the Nords identity from all games and the definition of being a Stalwart in one simple package without the ulti passive.

Stalwart: 1 marked by outstanding strength and vigor of body, mind, or spirit - Merriam Webster
2. strong and well-built; sturdy; robust - Collins dictionary
3. Strongly built and sturdy - Oxford dictionary.

hakan

Make it so racial passives dont have any DPS, Tanking, or Healing advantage but add some flavourful, utility based ones? Redguards snare passive reduction is a good example.

tv1973

@ Gilliam

Time to take another swing at a fair and reasonable passive for the Bosmer.

The current proposed Hunter's sight change is bad. There's no better way to put it.

Stealth detection is a very limited use skill for players. Not useful in the PVE environment and limited use in the PVP environment. its not useful in open field since attacks from stealth are either done via ranged attacks or gap closing abilities so its on;ly useful if you know roughly where someone is or if you're sweeping a keep. The detection raduis is exceptionally weak at 3 meters when compared to Radiant magelight's 12 meter detection or revealing flare which is a 10 meter detection you can use at range.

To put this into perfect perspective you have said this is a problem:

"Many racial bonuses do not have universal applicability.
Many bonuses provided from races had narrow application or requirements, such as specific damage types or proc conditions. For example, Orc’s have a damage bonus that only applied to melee attacks, instead of all physical attacks. "

Yet you've given the Bosmer that in full on their final passive. Its only useful in Cyrodil, and you must dodge roll to benifit.
lt's something that mirrors the problem you were looking to fix..

Furthermore on this goal you did not succeed:
"Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.

Hunters sights does not retain and enhance the Bosmer race game play experience. It is a complete divergence from the previous play.

As for the stealth, it'd be nice to have back but getting an actual useful passive would be just as good. In any case hunter's sight needs to go.after all you're creating the very problem you set out to fix.

IzzyStardust

hakan wrote: »

Make it so racial passives dont have any DPS, Tanking, or Healing advantage but add some flavourful, utility based ones? Redguards snare passive reduction is a good example.

I'd agree with this over the mess we have now.

I hate the regen STAM *** on Altmer. Like [snip] with that.

[edited for profanity bypass]

IzzyStardust

max_only wrote: »

Well shards (the damage one is used more than the resourceful one these days) and orbs restore the highest resource. So if you needed your lowest resource and you weren’t getting it through synergies then Altmer will get it through their racial passive. The only time this comes up for me is when I’m tanking and I keep getting filled on my highest resource (usually stamina) but I need some help on my lowest so I can apply buffs or ranged taunt (magicka only).

And we didn't [snip] WANT it! Why is this a stumper for people?! [snip] am I gonna do with MORE STAM when I have full bar or stam!?

[edited for profanity bypass]

IzzyStardust

Deathlord92 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

This is a scenario where I think both the positive and negative feedback all contain correct perspectives that need to be considered before moving forward.

Just two examples:

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Pretty damn good changes, bud. People haven't realized yet how Dunmer is, perhaps, the most versatile race out there. Argonians will still be great as healers or tanks. Khajiit will now cater to PVP, PVE, and (ironically) casual RPers. This, all the while, allows people to still min/max their characters to be higher DPS/Tank/Healer builds with Altmer, Breton, Redguard, Orc, Imperial, Bosmer, and Nord.

Inig0 wrote: »

ZoS we’ve gone so far past the time where you can reasonable make changes to the races like you have. I’ve personally leveled 14 characters with the intention of playing a specific race on that character to sever specific needs. Setting aside the clear in balance and lack of freedom you’re giving people you’re also costing us hundreds of dollars to re adjust ourselves to something we’ve made decisions on that costed us hundreds of hours in leveling alone.

You are directly costing your player base money and time.

The only solution I see is making races a cosmetic choice with no combat influence. Perhaps add a system where you choose the passives because frankly you’re just forcing people who genuinely care about performance to buy tokens and race change. This is unacceptable.

Let's break this down logically for a minute. Most people chose their race (or changed their race) for one of four reasons, or a combination of these:

1. Lore
2. Looks
3. To support a *specific* build or play style [priority: more niche]
4. To support playing *multiple* build or play styles [priority: less niche]

NONE of these reasons are an "incorrect" reason to play a race, but in order for race changes to result in a happy player base, they need to be done in such a way that the initial reason we chose a race isn't significantly impacted. Changing passives to support, say, #4, when we've had years of being able to design characters for #3, is problematic. If we were allowed to do #3, this is giving us less freedom than before, not more.

Why? Because gear, CP points, builds, etc. can all be changed relatively easily in game, and all of those choices are or can be essentially invisible to the identity of your character given the costumes, dye, and outfit system. However race can't be changed without spending crowns and it can drastically effect the way you look. Feeling like you HAVE to pay for a race change, or feeling like you HAVE to change the look of your character, is going to result in a lot of people feeling like the game is less fun than before these changes went into effect. Myself included. This is much different than having a set be nerfed equally for everyone, or even a class ability changed. With this, some people chose to be Khajiit or Bosmer or High Elf (or whatever) for a reason that will no longer exist, and a tough decision ahead, while others will completely benefit and have their specific play style enhanced. This will not feel fair or balanced; this will feel frustrating.

Most people asking for race balances, I think, are asking for them because they are unhappy with certain races being BiS for certain things. I also think a lot of people are saying the race changes are good or bad because they have a belief that racial passives should support one of the four reasons above, but aren't thinking of the other scenarios.

I personally have 10 characters that were chosen either to prioritize #3 first and #2 second or, sometimes I'd prioritize #2 first and #3 second.

Conclusion: Given the fact that ESO has been around for a long time, a solution that's good for both longtime players and new players needs to be implemented. Right now it's all over the map with feedback because these balance changes do not really work for some of the reasons a race was originally chosen, and one token isn't going to fix that.

What I'd like to see is a Racial Passives skill area where ALL of the passives are available, but you can only choose three or four regardless of how many skill points you have. Some restrictions could still apply. Maybe, for example, only Khajiit or Bosmer can pick sneak passives, or maybe certain passives conflict with each other and can't both be chosen. Leave some kind of lore special-ness while avoiding a sledgehammer for people who chose the old passives carefully. If I chose my Khajiit for the extra damage in stealth, I can still pick that. If I chose Argonian for the self-healing, I can still pick that.

Basically, add some of these new passives that people like, allow the selection of the old ones that are unique, phase out old ones that are truly replaced with new ones (such as Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% becomes Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%) so people don't accidentally nerf themselves, and allow more of the passives to be applied to more of the races so "BiS Redguard for Stam" is a thing of the past.

Also, while you're at it, get rid of the "Increases the experience gain with XXX" passives which only give value when you are first leveling, if that, and keep a few lore-friendly passives that do stay with each race which generally don't impact combat. Fall damage, swim speed, extra time on food or drink buffs... that stuff isn't game breaking but could feel like a nice little "bonus" supporting why a race is still special.

This could be Phase 1. Then some of the choices could be reduced or streamlined as certain passives are never used and the community slowly gets used to separating combat benefits from the old style baked in racial passives.

I would so love to have stam racial passives for my Breton stamblade this would make me very happy something I have wanted for long time please consider it zos I know it’s hard to please everyone

REROLL/Race Change ALTMER; like we all have to reroll Breton. *all better!*

Logan67

Can we get a racial change for all characters and not just the points back?

Asardes

Considering the explanation for High Elf passives given in 4.3.1:

High Elf culture is heavily ingrained with the belief of destiny and birthright, so we wanted a passive that highlighted their ability to harness their innate powers, or class. Granting them a unique resource when accessing a class ability really gets that feeling off and makes it much more engaging than the previous flat recovery bonus.

On top of that, High Elves are well known for being powerful spell casters, and we wanted to make this race feel more powerful when they were charging up a powerful ability.

Then why go to extreme lengths to emphasize this, when you could have simply gone to a % cost reduction for class abilities, in the same way you gave Redguard a % cost reduction to weapon abilities?

Fierce and resilient, the Redguard race are well respected for their physical combat prowess. We wanted to emphasize their cultural background of being well versed in the ways of combat by granting them a cost reduction bonus for weapon abilities, while pulling back from some of their passive recovery. Instead we’ve moved it more into their offensive staying power with Adrenaline Rush to highlight their natural advantage to attrition.

Considering the further changes in 4.3.2, adding "flavors", you could have substituted the damage reduction while using a channeled ability, which makes sense only for a single class, with something with more general applicability. For example: decrease cost of break free by 15% for 5 seconds after using a class ability, which would be quite useful in the same way Redguards get 15% snare reduction. Considering High Elf is primarily a magicka race, such a change would make sense, since the stamina off-resource is mostly used for various CC break. Also it won't be unbalances, since it requires preemptive play style to use it effectively.

Vanguard1

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

Kalle_Demos

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

Logan67

I guess I don't see the point in refunding the points spent in the racial line.

Seraphayel

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

Vanguard1

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

While I agree with most of the comments here, it still doesn't change that fact that this conversation will not change the outcome. Personally, I think sticking with the lore should be a must in a game that is heavily based on lore; however, sometimes in order to keep game play even changes are going to be made and then remade over and over until they get it to an acceptable level, which I believe we are seeing the first stages of the coming changes. We will not like it but we will get used to it, why because there isn't a better MMO right now.

Cundu_Ertur

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

Bosmer lost a lore based racial (stealth) which was replaced with something that isn't lore based and is completely useless in PVE. Diversity has been completely removed with regards to stealth, because there is one and only one race that has any bonus to hiding, and that's Khajiit.

TheRealPotoroo

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

Well, Bosmers got royally screwed. They lost a useful, distinctive and lore friendly trait (stealth) that lots of people built their characters on for a useless one (stealth detection).

karthrag_inak

So when is dev explanation for massive khajiit change coming?

Cundu_Ertur

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

Well, Bosmers got royally screwed. They lost a useful, distinctive and lore friendly trait (stealth) that lots of people built their characters on for a useless one (stealth detection).

And still royally screwed as of 4.3.3.

BlueRaven

The Bosmer stealth detection thing. I have no idea why they are doing this. How many posts, how many weeks do we have to wait until we get an explanation for it.

This "sometime in the future we will fix it" talk, well maybe make the stealth change to bosmers when you are ready to implement this fix? Is it so much to ask?

FilteredRiddle

Imperial continues to improve! I still think there is additional room for enhancement though.

After last week's update, I made a suggestion to change their stats as follows:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line* by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

*Two-Handed, Dual-Wield, and One Hand and Shield

Given PTS Patch Notes v4.3.3's big improvement, I think that could/should be reasonably updated to:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.

If for some reason ZOS wanted to give in to the complaints that Magicka need be included (I don't think it's necessary, given the in-game lore history and minority of actual lore users to the size of the Cyrodiliic population but...), it could actually be changed following a suggestion I previously made:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee or Staff Skill Line by 10%, extra 1% Gold gain.
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 1000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon or Staff Damage by 258, based on your highest maximum resource.
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you restore 650 Health and either Stamina or Magicka based on your highest maximum resource. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilities by 3%.

Kalle_Demos

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

Seraphayel

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Vanguard1 wrote: »

Fact is no one likes change especially a character change, most the time they nerf a character to allow other characters to be on the same level. Never once thinking that rather than nerfing a class they could gradually increase the other classes to be on par, and the NPCs.

Either way, once everyone gets used to it, then it will be the new normal and this change will be behind us like all the rest. Good conversation though, although it won't change anything, change is coming.

No one hear has expressed that they are against change just because it's change. The criticisms here have been laid out in detail and many have made it very clear why they are displeased. As for the goals laid out: Racial identity, diversity, lore, avoiding nerfs, race/class combination, universal applicability, etc. I would bet that a vast majority of the community would be for all of that. The problem is that there is an extremely large disconnect from those goals that were laid out and what has been proposed and the results of said proposals.

1. Races got more lore oriented racials (some got removed, some were newly established): check

2. Races are now much closer together when it comes to Magicka/Stamina DPS: check

3. Diversity exists due to newly established "versatile races" (Khajiit, Dunmer, Redguard) and some races got improved utility: check

4. Universal applicability: yes/no (how should this be achieved without making everything obsolete?)

So why exactly are players displeased? Most goals were achieved by ZOS proposed changes.

None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

All of it is true. As I said, some lore racials were added, others removed. So ZOS did exactly what they said. None of the races that are tailored towards Magicka or Stamina DPS clearly outperform others. All Magicka and Stamina DPS are very similar and close together when it comes to DPS. That Stamina races are apart from Magicka races when it comes to DPS (and vice versa) is normal and was never the goal to make it different.

Bosmer complaints about stealth: understandable.

The displeasure is in most cases totally made up. Besides Bosmer losing stealth everything is fine and in line with what ZOS wanted to do. Yes, even the Altmer stamina restore.

Soldier224

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

I know. Altmer dont can run or lift a Sword in the lore...

It´s interesting, that many players use the lore as an argument although they know nothing about the Lore.

Ysbriel

Soldier224 wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

None of this is true. Altmer stam restore is not lore oriented. Races clearly outperform others, no balance only a shift in meta. Bosmer losing their stealth play sharply decreases diversity. Some proposals are only useful for certain modes of play unlike their previous iterations. The displeasure on these and other issues has been well vocalized on the forums and elsewhere.

I know. Altmer dont can run or lift a Sword in the lore...

It´s interesting, that many players use the lore as an argument although they know nothing about the Lore.

Were in previous games have Altmers been known for their outstanding physical capabilities?

His post can’t be anything else but true, the racial passives in this game were not meant to follow lore, and that is the problem, if from the start they would had kept it simple and not try to slam a one sided design on the game nobody would had be complaining about racial identity

Altmers - destruction skill line damage bost only, higher magicka pool
Breton - Magicka regeneration and a magicka pool second to altmer , a percentage in the duration of buffs and damage shields strength
Bosmer - Bow damage boost , stealth poison resistance, meat foods last longer.
Khajiits- Stealth and a damage boost if using daggers, substatial critical chances. Higher pickpocket chance better lock picking.
Argonians - they drink hist sap so the potion boost somewhat represents that so they are basically good.
Dunmer- dual wield damage boost, fire damage boost fire resistance
Orcs- are pretty much good.
Nord- two weapon damage boost, some extra health and a flat but not exageratend spell/physical resistance

Redguards and Imperials- why both together? since there is no one handed, One handed and shield is the closest thing and you boost both races damage with that skill line and then work on who gets more stam and who gets more health, from there without the requirement of changing any animations all you do is that one morph of each skill provides something that makes it useful for other than tanking.

Ransack- Stab your enemy 3 times and apply either resource steal, cause of what ransacking is.

Reverberating bash - the initial target and enemies around him take (x) physical damage for (x) seconds.

Shield invasion- charge forward (x) distance, all enemies in your path get damaged.

Deep Slash- just make it a small conal area and targets bleed (x) damage for (x) seconds

Shield Discipline- would be useful


from that basic they could had just worked whatever extra passives they wanted to work around them and basically from there we would had the option to have our characters by race exceed in what they are traditionally known for, everything else you want to make out of them relies on mundus stones, sets and class, guilds and alliance skill lines , this would had provided a closer gap in general DPS if any other type of build was to be made cause the boost would be once again on what they are traditionally known for. It doesn’t take a long comprehensive Lore Master level knowledge to understand this.