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Progression Atrophy & the NEED for Power Creep in ESO + Other Pain Points for Middle Tiered players

Nebthet78
Nebthet78
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This is a topic I feel requires serious discussion as many feel their point of view is not being taken seriously by ZOS, especially after the disappearance of another discussion thread, which contained many good points and outlined the Pain Points being felt by Medium Tiered players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457975/most-mmos-have-power-creep-here-at-eso-we-have-power-atrophy-and-i-am-pretty-sick-of-it/p5

I've essentially written an essay in regards to the issues brought up, and why they are pain points. I'll break this into 7 different parts to make reading easier. Props to those who actually take the time to read and understand the point of view.

Part1:
As had been pointed out, most MMOs have a form of Power Creep. Whether it is from raised stats from Armor or from a modified vertical and horizontal progression system, it is there. As new content is released, older content becomes easier to finish. This allows newer players and those whom may not be as skilled of a player, to be able to eventually complete the content they paid for.

ESO is in its’ 5thyr now, and we are still at a point in this game where, I feel developers aren’t really sure where they want to take things for the long term, or don’t know how to get there. There are only so many times you can reinvent things before players get fed up.
Of contention this time is the halting any CP progression for the foreseeable future, while ZOS figures this out.

Who is this halting of the CP system going to hurt the most?
The Average, Middle Tiered players who need the continued Power Creep in order to do the harder content. It isn’t enough for these players to be stuck doing normal permanently. Once you reach a certain level of skill and competence, normal content becomes too easy. Especially in group play.

When ZOS changed the leveling system from Veteran to Champion Points, they also removed the caps on our Character Stats. In the beginning, this wasn’t much of an issue, because the different Tiers of players were much closer then, than they are today, despite the difference in actual skill. For players wanting to do Veteran Trials, the requirement was a 20k DPS.

Unfortunately, ZOS didn’t take into account the players who would exploit the system so quickly and would grind out 1000s of CP in a couple of days so they could wipe other players in PVP and other content. So they capped the CP system and only allowed for small increments to increase every couple of months. This was an acceptable change as it still allowed players to progress.



Part2:
Part of the unseen consequences of this system however, was the fact we began to see a significant widening between player skill levels.

I noted these levels in a previous thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5758021/#Comment_5758021

As these player Tiers (Ceiling vs Floor) continued to increasingly widen, we also began to see forum posts where more skilled players were complaining the game was too easy, and Vet Trials were too easy. So, ZOS increased the CP level of Trials enemies, therefore making them harder to complete.

This rose up the ceiling even higher. Trials guilds were now requiring 25k-30k DPS to be allowed into core runs for Vet Trials. Players were locked out of the content they were able to enjoy previously. The only thing players had to compensate for the skill differential, was the small incremental increases in the CP system. The Power Creep.

Then it came out that Animation Cancelling was not something they could fix in the game because the systems it was attached to were necessary to allow for fast reactionary combat. ZOS didn’t know how to separate or compensate for that. So they openly declared it was not a cheat. It was a feature of the game. The elite end game players took it and ran and their DPS skyrocketed.

Unfortunately, for the majority of Middle Tiered players where Normal dungeons are too easy, but some Vet or Hard Modes are too hard, they are unable to use animation cancelling for a variety of reasons; Server Performance being notoriously the largest reason.
- Merrydia.......................- AD NB Vamp - Tank - CP930
- Merrick Valnos-Krytt......- DC Sorc Vamp - DPS - CP930
- Dyvvia Lucien Laxcroi....- DC HybridTemp Were - DPS - CP930
- Eidden Du'Urdden..........- EP DK Were Tank- CP930
- Jzargo Torga ...............- AD Stamplar - DPS - CP930
- Rayden Valnos-Krytt......- AD NB - DPS - CP930
- Hector Von Longbottom- AD Nord Templar - HEALER - CP930
- Karla Gro-Bushgrol........- AD PoisonKnight - DPS - CP930
- Nebhet-Fang-Ranger .....- EP DragonKnight - DPS - CP930
- Radu Stormwind ...........- DC StamSorc - DPS - CP930
- Perrygrin of Camlorn.....- AD MagSorc - DPS - CP930
- Steals-Your-Mate.......... - EP Argonian NB - DPS - CP930
- AD StamWarden - CP930
- AD MagWarden - L0
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Mr_Walker wrote: »
    SoLooney wrote: »
    Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has.

    That's good. Those "casuals" are the folk who make up the bulk of the game. They are the folk buying crown store items, and the ESO+ subs so they can dye their cosmetics, not the 1% who gripe and moan the game's too easy for their leet skills.

    They are the ones keeping the lights on.

    Bear that in mind next time you think about casuals in any sort of derogatory fashion.

    Have an awesome.... you nailed me. Yep, I'm a filthy casual - one who can't even manage to complete the questing content. But I still enjoy - even love! - the game.
  • Girl_Number8
    Girl_Number8
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    @Girl_Number8 - that might be true. But I've spent so much money on this game in the last 8 months.... husband had forgotten the years when I ran 7 WoW accounts! But it's my money I'm spending....

    So I have two accounts paid 6 months at a time. And then I buy more crowns for each at least once a month - not the biggest pack, but certainly an extra hundred a month for both (US dollars I should say).

    As a casual - one who can't even really play the content for the most part - I figure I AM paying my way. Now, if I was working, or still running a business, I could pay even more - but hey, I decided to mostly retire.... and I don't ask husband to fund my gaming.

    You sound like you are a gamer that has played games longer then I have been alive, that is great. Though my point is a lot of us that started with this game have supported it since the beginning, most are multiplatform, and even NA and EU players on top of that. We have spent more in this game over the years naturally because it was and is our main game.

    I never played WoW so Idk how they treated you as a customer after being loyal for years to their product. Though Zos has shown us time after time again we mean very little. This race change token cash grab to heat one of their pools for another year will put an unnecessary financial burden on endgame players. That have been paying all along and are now going to be paying the price for Zos's incompetence or intended competence to get even more from us in an unfair way.
    Edited by Girl_Number8 on February 12, 2019 2:48AM
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    @Girl_Number8 - that might be true. But I've spent so much money on this game in the last 8 months.... husband had forgotten the years when I ran 7 WoW accounts! But it's my money I'm spending....

    So I have two accounts paid 6 months at a time. And then I buy more crowns for each at least once a month - not the biggest pack, but certainly an extra hundred a month for both (US dollars I should say).

    As a casual - one who can't even really play the content for the most part - I figure I AM paying my way. Now, if I was working, or still running a business, I could pay even more - but hey, I decided to mostly retire.... and I don't ask husband to fund my gaming.

    You sound like you are a gamer that has played games longer then I have been alive, that is great. Though my point is a lot of us that started with this game have supported it since the beginning, most are multiplatform, and even NA and EU players on top of that. We have spent more in this game over the years naturally because it was and is our main game.

    I never played WoW so Idk how they treated you as a customer after being loyal for years to their product. Though Zos has shown us time after time again we mean very little. This race change token cash grab to heat one of their pools for another year will put an unnecessary financial burden on endgame players. That have been paying all along and are now going to be paying the price for Zos's incompetence or intended competence to get even more from us in an unfair way.

    Eh, WoW wasn't any better really. I quit playing when they pushed Warlords of Draenor as the next "greatest" thing, and I could see it wasn't going to be fun (for me - some liked it I'm sure) so I quit, canceled 7 accounts, and haven't ever been back. Thing I enjoyed about WoW was getting a player to max level (95 I think when I left) and being able to run older content for transmog gear, and hauling a few other account toons along so they could get the good gear to help them along. Never did get that really cool flying mount - though that's the major reason I left: no flying in new content.

    RIFT went the same sort of direction - not going to be fun for me, so I left. Canceled only 5 accounts that time. Haven't been back - and it seems that the whole game is now.... trashed by some gimped company so maybe I can't even just go back F2P and mess with housing....

    I started playing CRPGs in 1985 btw..... SSI Gold Box Games set in Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms. I LIVED those games, and loved them. Still do, though running them through DosBox is.... not optimal on today's machines.

    Y'know, I kind of want to build an "old time" box - one that approximates my first machine (XEROX dos machine, 286 maybe; upgraded it to win 3.0 - buggier than ANY anthill btw! - and then added a real hdd....) Not sure that's possible today. But if it was, I could actually play all those old games again.
  • Ysbriel
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    This actually an interesting and potential point of view, i’ve been in Veteran DLC dungeons that everybody knew what they were supposed to do and we kept failing when in the last 12% of the boss and i thought to myself, why keep raising the damage required to defeat the new content instead of adding more complex and interactive mechanics than just having someone yell “burn” in the dungeon, i mean i know that exists already but it should be more of that, as a 810cp Tank i can hold enough till i get overwhelmed if the DDs don’t have a crazy high dps and some dungeon bosses like that Minotaur in Bloodroot forge on vet if i die every will most likely die without a chance to resurrect me.
  • Joosef_Kivikilpi
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    Apologies in advance for the length of this post:

    I've become a player that understands multiple viewpoints.

    Despite what you may see from my forum profile, I've been playing ESO since May, 2014. First on PC, then console at console launch, I'm a late comer to the forums.

    I strive to be able to complete veteran content and fully realize to do that I need to be a better player.

    Now being a better player (as a player that pve's and pvp's) can mean several different things. For pve, it is setting my rotation and being able to repeat it with consistency. For PVP it's being able to react in the moment and be able to have the correct skill ready to counter what my opponent is throwing at me.

    With that in mind, I know that I have little chance to be on vMA leaderboards, but I can complete any normal dungeon and a few vet dungeons solo.

    I can roll into cyrodiil and stack up tons of "you kill me at the same time I kill you" (don't remember the name of the achievement).

    I enjoy the learning curve and the adjustments to my build and figuring out all the bits and pieces that you need to be really successful.

    Yet I have to deal with folks that want to kick me from GF runs due to my builds. I never run meta. I enjoy finding builds with sets that very few use and proving they are viable. I'm running a Stamsorc with gryphons ferocity as one set and I solo content that some can't with a four person group.

    There will always be top tier players in any mmo, and they have every right to want content that challenges them. The problem, as I see it, with ESO is that there are far more players trying to emulate that top tier and therefore excluding the mid and lower tier just because of sets or dps on a dummy which, by the way, does not represent what you'll actually do in a dungeon or trial.

    The top players are not the problem.

    The lowest players are not the problem.

    The middle who think they are the top are the problem.

    Are we freaking twins, man?? Same to everything up there ^

    Ever seen a Mage using Embershield and Overwhelming Surge beat veteran Maelstrom Arena? This guy has haha I love that you create your own build and do awesome stuff with it! Good on you!
    Edited by Joosef_Kivikilpi on February 12, 2019 1:54PM
  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    Nebthet78 wrote: »
    Part7:
    ZOS has always stated that they have all this Data about how many people are completing dungeons, what their DPS is, how often are they running, etc. etc. They need to be looking at this data and referring to it. How many players are running VHof or VCR +2-+3? How many are on the leader boards for these? Are those characters currently on the leader boards, owned by the same players? If so, how many? How many players are completing this content, and then NEVER STEPPING IN IT AGAIN??

    They need to take the time and speak with a couple of these Middle Tiered Progressive Raid groups and their leaders to hear first-hand, what their pain points are, and why they are not having fun, or running the new content again after they complete it.

    What can be done to help balance the game and to alleviate some of these pain points?

    - Power Creep needs to continue in this game, but it does need to be Capped (say, 45-50k).
    It’s time for ZOS to put a roof over the Highest Ceiling. All players should be able to eventually complete all content they paid for. Even if it takes them 7yrs of eventual power creep through any system; they’ll eventually get there.
    In PvP, this could mean setting the max DPS at a certain level as well, or having all NO CP campaigns.
    But, if I’m not going to progress in power for the foreseeable future, why should I bother buying the new DLC, or the New Chapter?? The story isn’t enough. I can watch someone else play and get the story without paying.

    - With Capped DPS, then a pure horizontal progression begins, where CP can be spent on quality of life items rather on points that provide more power. Ie: Increased bank space. A fourth CP tree can be created for this, or allowing players to put points into the trees, say into resistances for Trials so they don’t have to keep changing them all the time.

    - Third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet Dungeons and Trials needs to be created. Raising the difficulty of Normal is not acceptable, as you will again be locking a vast majority of your casual players out of that content. An intuitive middle tier of difficulty that allows your players to learn the mechanics without being overwhelmed in required.

    - Mechanics that allow for room of error. Players shouldn’t have to be on point 100% of the time, or wipe the run. Those type of mechanics are not Fun and players are less likely to repeatedly run content that had mechanics like this.



    I would like to build more on this conversation. Posting trolling comments like git gud, or L2P is not providing constructive feedback or discussion, but are considered trolling. I would like to hear others thoughts on this, from those who both agree or disagree.

    Tam one is responsible for this. It was really a response to two issues phasing which was huge. And stale blocked of content.I think level scalling could have been better thought out. Wanting to make the game more like the tradtional single player franchise was the goal. Allowing people to play with friends no matter the level all good ideas . but there are other way of doing that. Tam one has done no favors for the body of the community that is now entering or wants to enter end game group activities. because you actually have learned none of the games finer points of combat, nor the roles how the function or how to play in a group setting.
    Edited by Wifeaggro13 on February 12, 2019 2:29PM
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