I don't want to be mean about it, but dlc dungeons

zvavi · February 2019

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

2. First time I tanked vSCP, I got killed. Again. And again. And again. It was the dungeon that thought me that I need to learn to tank, asap. It was hard and challenging, and to be honest? I am happy it was not a pug group. Second time it was a pug group, still passed it.

3. After doing it many times. Mostly pugging it. Most of the runs end up with us finishing the dungeon. I had runs with people that didn't know mechanics and couldn't understand English well. 3 of those who were there first time. Dd's with barely 30k DPS combined. Last boss runs when I ended up the only person alive few times during the fight that we passed. (I usually tank it when I pug because hardest role imo). I never kicked a person. Nor did I quit. All mechanics were passable for new players to the dungeon. We managed to pass it. I believe in that statement for most vet dlc content, excluding vFH, but I think it is because I didn't do it enough times. Exclude vWGT too, since you really need either god level coordination or 20k DPS on each dd to be able to do it(with a good tank) or 35k if the tank is lacking.

4. For dungeons you do first time, you should learn them with guildies in voice. Even if they don't know them yet, because yes, it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing, and needs at least one if not two members that know what they are doing to pass them well.

5. So other than dying. And dying. And dying. There is no other way to pass vet dlc. You, the people that are complaining, are totally right. DLC vet dungeons are totally challenging. and even if it feels like rng hates you and that you got wiped because of stupid random one shot mechanic, some people don't die from them that often or at all. It means you can get used to them too.

6. Please. If you pug those things. And you don't know mechanics. Say so in chat. If they plan on kicking those who don't know anyway, you will be kicked later on anyway. Better save wipes and frustration from people that are willing to stay and explain them. I called a guy an idiot because he lied about knowing mechanics. And then explained them. Finished the dungeon.

7. Some people don't have maelstrom weapons because they didn't manage to complete it. Those that are determined enough have them. Same with vet dlc dungeons. True, they are not easy. True they can be frustrating on your first run. But I almost managed to do no death in vSCP while the tank was there first time as tank and we were 3 dd's. Randomly. No plans on it what's so ever. Still was a speed run. (Death was one of the easier mechanics, the tank forgot to run to shield after Ice dudes). And one of the members were a dd which is afraid of this content like beast from fire. He thinks he plays bad and had barely 22k DPS when I started running vSCP with him (after making him punch a dummy for a while he is very happy with his growing damage on stamsorc without maelstrom bow, altmer, 32k and growing). And now he happily joins if I need some more hands. Honestly? If he can? Everyone can. Because he is one of those who complain it is to hard. He is one of those who are afraid of dying and don't want to pull the team back with "lack of skill". Also run it with NB tank 300 cp lady that has left our guild for some reason (still heartbroken, need more main tanks in my guild). I don't remember any wipes. Probably because was long ago, but 100% not more than 3 wipes. All of number 7, is connected back to numbers 1 2 and 3. It is possible. For those who try enough. Yes. It is end game content.

I mean. For all those who knows undertale. For some things. You gotta have DETERMINATION. So please. Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult. Either you have the determination and possibility to do it (old age and some extreme health problems are the only thing that comes to mind that can stop you from managing with determination). Or you don't try enough. And don't plan to.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS

. (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

josiahva · February 2019

^^ This is EXACTLY true. It takes effort to learn to survive vet DLC dungeons...they are not too hard, they only take practice. I suggest pugging these dungeons if you have trouble with them...pugging them is the best way to get better because invariably you will have to get better to make up for someone else....and the better you get the easier they get. Also...dont go into these dungeons expecting to complete them in a pug...sure, I complete all DLC dungeons I pug about 80% of the time...but the fact is, for whatever reason completion isn't always possible...your main goal in pugging a dungeon is to get better, whether or not that turns into completion is something else. Then there are times you end up in a group with other experienced players and breeze through on HM

Rungar · February 2019

dlc dungeons really come down to research and practice. Zos is as clockwork as it gets.

most players i would imagine don't do either and not because they cant but because they don't find it fun. They want to skip the research and practice and just have a good time. They want the practice to be passive not show up one day and slug it out until your fingers muscles remember the correct move.

that is the problem with mechanics. Some wont understand that.

mechanics isnt the only way to make something challenging but i believe that zos has a dungeon maker application that fences them in from doing anything interesting or unpredictable so there might be 30+ dungeons but artwork aside they are all exactly the same.

the dungeons have no variability or unpredictable elements. The mechanics have a small amount of variability but its generally limited to conform or die.

Xerikten · February 2019

well said.

I have been very blessed across several mmos to have guildies and friends like yourself. you just never know that the person in your group whom you took time to help may become your online friend for years and years.

lokulin · February 2019

Kudos to you for working hard and getting those achievements. I think you are missing the point a lot of people are making when they say the dungeons are too hard. The best games are those that put you in the "zone of proximal development" or to put it another way, are enjoyably frustrating. If things are too easy people don't learn anything and most likely they really aren't enjoying it that much, just grinding. If things are too hard, there isn't any try harder, there is logging off, going to another game, no learning and no fun. The zone where people learn and have fun best is different for different individuals. Obviously for you it is higher. That is great for you.

Personally I think some of the new DLC dungeons are too hard not because I don't think with enough patience and luck I could do all the harder and esoteric achievements but because I think ZOS has misjudged the zone of proximal development for the average player and is catering too much for those at the top end of the bell curve. I don't have hard data to back up my claim but my anecdotal evidence is the difficulty the average pug has with most of the newer DLCs let alone hard modes or no death achievements.

Of course people will say I should not pug but only do DLCs with guild mates or friends but I'd argue that if you pug enough you get a good cross section of player abilities. I have definitely pugged with some really great teams pulling big DPS numbers and really knowing the mechanics. I have also pugged with some terrible teams (of all CP levels) that wipe constantly and can hardly fight their way out of a paper bag. The majority of them tho are average, and really not much different to a random guild run. Those are the ones that might clear the content after a few wipes but would really struggle and no doubt probably never achieve a no death or hard mode. Compare this to the non DLC content where I have cleared every no death, speed and hard mode with pugs, multiple times.

Once again, I've got no problem with harder content, but I do feel that once you have cleared all the base game dungeons none of of the DLC dungeons cater to average players.

Personally, I am unlikely to buy the new dungeon DLC (and let my eso+ lapse) not because I think I wouldn't be able to do it with enough time and effort but because most of the dungeons I run are with pugs (I play at odd times so can't always be on when friends and familiar guild mates are on), and I know the average player is going to really struggle making the whole experience more frustrating than fun.

malicia · February 2019

I’m going to disagree, @lokulin. The DLCs are the only ones I and most of my friends still find fun to do. I’m trying to help a few friends get vSCP HM. We’ve spent hours there trying to make it, and we’ll probably still spend a few more hours there. The game caters for us by providing content that is pretty hard and challenging. Same with vBRP - we’ve completed it once, but we’re still far from being competent at it.

Take that kind of really hard content away and we’re not going to have anything left. The game does give you the option to do it on normal. Normal caters for the normal/average player, vet caters for those seeking a bit more of a challenge.

The dungeon difficulty design can be improved. There is a large gap between normal and vet. If anything, I feel that an easy mode could be added, and normal be updated to teach more of the mechanics - give the boss extra resistance until it has shown all its mechanics at least once.

But don’t gimp vet. There are a large number of players who can do it and who enjoy it.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · February 2019

I dont like dlc dungeon they arent fun for me , i hate that half of the content are dungeon pack

Facefister · February 2019

Someone: "Lf 1 tank, 2 DDs for vMoS hm"
Me: "Let's give a try!"
Result: hm clear and three more in the friendslist

Shardaxx · February 2019

They are super hard to make up for the lack of content. They want you to die lots on a small dungeon because that's all there is. Bit sad really when dlc became 2 dungeons instead of an area to explore.

Zathras · February 2019

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

jainiadral · February 2019

Zathras wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

Have an awesome.

I wish I could give you an insightful too. You explained exactly and beautifully how it is to be on the receiving end of that hideous spelling

Delpi · February 2019

I'm a casual player, I don't have much time to play because I have family, work... I just want to play and have fun. Die and die and die it's not fun, it's just frustrating. So I don't play DLC dungeons, don't even bother buying them. And it's ok for me, I'm perfectly fine knowing not all the content is for me.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Great post and I agree on most of the things etc..
But I'll tell that there is huge difference in difficulty depending on player's CP level, gear, build and overall experience with game mechanics..

All that seems just requiring a little effort for CP600+ player in actual sets, with alcast build and knowledge to avoid any aoe in dlc vet, will require much more from CP300 player with alcast build and good sets, and will be impossible for cp300 with random gear and skills on his bars, so only way to complete that dlc vet for last one is to be carried.

In my opinion devs should increase CP level required for dlc vets. CP500 will do, and if person qualifies before CP500 he may just port in at any CP level like now. I mean now when we enter dlc vet and there are 2 CP300 guys second high CP player leaves instantly. If there is one CP300 guy and he is not Stormproof, vote to kick appears almost instantly too.

pelle412 · February 2019

I think it would be fine if the normal DLCs are toned down maybe a tad. In MHK the werewolf one-shots a DPS through block, on normal. Yeah you can dodge it but it can lead to some frustration for players still working on their gameplay. Veteran DLCs should remain difficult.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

pelle412 wrote: »

I think it would be fine if the normal DLCs are toned down maybe a tad. In MHK the werewolf one-shots a DPS through block, on normal. Yeah you can dodge it but it can lead to some frustration for players still working on their gameplay. Veteran DLCs should remain difficult.

This is to make newbie tanks to do something more then taunt boss and block. And dlc normals are already toned down much, a lot of one-shots were replaced with 90% HP damage. So now people think, oh i ignored this mechanic in normal, so now i may ignore it in vet. Anyway I agree that even normal MHK is too brutal for inexperienced players and dps-burst centered, and basically can't be completed if both dps are complete potatoes.

Wrathmane · February 2019

Delpi wrote: »

I'm a casual player, I don't have much time to play because I have family, work... I just want to play and have fun. Die and die and die it's not fun, it's just frustrating. So I don't play DLC dungeons, don't even bother buying them. And it's ok for me, I'm perfectly fine knowing not all the content is for me.

That's why the dungeons have normal mode as well. Generally speaking the normal modes aren't really all that hard. A semi competent pug group should have minimal difficulty completing them. Yes the vet versions are hard and they should be, there has to be some content for the players who have been around and playing the game since launch.

LordTareq · February 2019

I dislike them for 4 reasons.
#1. First of all they are quite hard so it takes organised play, requiring you to be in a guild most likely and invest time and effort to learn them in order to complete them. I don't want to commit that much time and energy.
#2. Secondly, you need to pay for them. Since I will not really be able to do these dungeons (see #1) I'm not going to make the monetary investment to unlock them.
#3. Most of the better sets drop from them. Considering #1 and #2 I obviously dislike this.
#4. They actually do progress a story, which I kinda would like to experience. But can't.

malicia · February 2019

@LordTareq

Won't you be able to do them on normal pretty easily? You don't have to do them on vet to get the drops or the story. Only the monster sets and the bragging right achievements are locked behind vet.

xaraan · February 2019

My biggest complaint about dungeons (something I've said since WGT came out) is that despite enjoying the difficulty of the dungeons in the newest DLC versions is that they seem to be relying on creating mechanics that make existing skills, abilities and gear irrelevant. Which I find to be a lazy way to make something challenging and annoying when you only have 10 skills on your bar total and often several of those skills will be the same for various content, so often only a couple flexible spots.

So let's create mobs whose fire cannot be purged, let's create mobs that all apply their bleeds differently than other bleeds in the game so they cannot be purged, let's use oblivion damage so you've wasted your time putting work into defense to find out you will now be weaker than a tank that didn't bother with the tougher build b/c they put their power elsewhere. And I feel like they are putting all these bleeds and effects in to make healers for more needed, it's not working - all it does is widen the gap of players that can complete the content and the people that have it down can still run it without a dedicated healer. And even though I'm in the latter group, I still feel bad for progression players trying to make it through that stuff and I know if I don't run with the small group I often run with, the runs are going to be much longer and frustrating.

Then there are things like so many one-shots in dungeons now, not just from wipe mechanics, but from mobs. Zos has said no aoe taunt as we don't want the tank to taunt everything, but everything that doesn't get taunted will kill anyone it attacks that isn't a tank doesn't make a lot of sense. In MHK vhm there are two WWs that spawn almost the same time as the two big wolves come up in execute range, all four of those have to be instantly taunted, and you can't make any heavy attacks for resources b/c they all 5 (including boss) will be rotating their one-shot heavies on you. Is it do-able? Sure, I've done it like hundreds of times farming it, but it's not fun, it's annoying.

And the more RNG in them, the worse - b/c winning or losing sucks when it feels like it happened b/c of RNG. (This is amplified by pug runs when you don't even have people in comms to call to live - which is why I think all DLC dungeons should be pulled out of random dailies imo). But the earthgore fight comes to mind, sometimes HM is easy b/c they put lava pools in great spots, sometimes they drop at the worst spots (and no, you cannot control them, we've tested this countless times, even with people in the group that said you can and did exactly as they've said and watched the lava go out randomly). So you essentially win or lose this fight based on RNG. When it actually should work by making sure the boss is in the right spot or facing the right way. You should give the tank some control and allow skill and experience to make a difference. (Or if some say it works and some doesn't, revisit it to make sure there isn't some buggy issue making it appear completely random to someone that has farmed these dungeons hundreds of times).

I don't want content to be a cake walk. That won't be fun either. But ZoS needs to add more ideas to their bag of tricks they use to make dungeons challenging. The less RNG the better imo. And the less you make the players skills they choose to run matter, the less useful they feel they are doing as well, at that point they are just surviving content and not really fighting it (I say fighting, but I don't purely mean doing dps). Allow tanks to control fights - that's what is fun about the role. Give healers a purpose by having more mobs that can't all be tanked by one person, but also don't one-shot everything they hit so they can be left free to manage by the dps as long as they have heal support. Don't have all the ads vanish as soon as a boss dies so the burn is more important than mechanics b/c all your problems will stop with more burn. For example, we don't do any mechanics on the second to last boss in MHK, just burn. Let all the ads pile up, they all vanish as soon as the boss dies, but if they didn't and you pushed out 8 ads with half of them changing to mega wolves, that would end up wiping the group every time if you pushed the boss and ignored mechanics. So burning the boss from 100-0 would be irrelevant if they didn't vanish.

Things like that also create sharp skill difference, where if you are with one group of friends a run or fight can feel like a cakewalk compared to even old original game dungeons just b/c they have that little bit of more dps and not more skill at the actual fight. Then with the next group, it can feel very unforgiving and punishing and take ten times longer even if they know the fights somewhat well. This is the biggest reason you see people worrying about who they will and won't run with, or why dps matters more than anything else skill wise in the game. (Also why some great target dummy humpers get really screwed when they do have to worry about mechanics - b/c so much of the game you don't if your dps is high enough). - I will say the Indrik fight in the MoS is not the way to do this however, it's boring and just has everyone sitting around between every vanishing. The second to last boss in MHK is a perfect example of just having the adds that are conjured not vanish would completely change the ability to burn that fight the same. Not that there wouldn't be some burn strats still involved, but it would definitely create a scenerio where doing mechanics made more sense than stack and burn. And it's as simple as just leaving the ads up that have spawned. It creates the issue of players wanting to do mechanics b/c they are managing the fight better and not forcing them to do it b/c the boss is vanishing and making you click a green light for longer than you spent damaging it each time or because a boss is getting healed from some magical source that makes it invulnerable or whatever.

(Many of these issues would also make tanking more enjoyable as well. Allow them to manage fights and help manage fights better and not just be turned into damage sponges in a game where they are expected to be buff monkeys over damage sponges, which just puts additional stress on the role without giving them actual enjoyable things to do.) Being a good tank nowadays is just being able to survive in the crappiest gear possible for actually tanking damage so you can buff the group instead of how well you manage a fight. For example it used to be a good tank in SO trial could keep poison off of people, now it just goes to everyone, so that's irrelevant now. To me, those parts of the fights are what make tanking fun and I don't see any of that anymore and even in older cases like SO it's been taken away. I think it's why tanking is less and less popular as well.

LordTareq · February 2019

malicia wrote: »

@LordTareq

Won't you be able to do them on normal pretty easily? You don't have to do them on vet to get the drops or the story. Only the monster sets and the bragging right achievements are locked behind vet.

I see, I thought these DLC dungeons were only veteran mode.

XxCaLxX · February 2019

The only dungeon that I see that not so skilled players have trouble with is Moon Hunter Keep. It's mostly because some ppl cant come to terms with idea that there are actual mechanics and its not just try to burn the bosses everytime. I've completed all hard mode dungeons and challenges for them but in pugs the boss before final boss is the one that ppl just cant seem to do. I also agree that tank is a tough role. It is very hard for a pug to get a good tank which alot of non vet players dont understand so when their tank isn't up to par then that makes it so much harder on DD's and Healers which in turn makes them think the dungeon is harder than what it actually is.

Delpi · February 2019

Wrathmane wrote: »

Delpi wrote: »

I'm a casual player, I don't have much time to play because I have family, work... I just want to play and have fun. Die and die and die it's not fun, it's just frustrating. So I don't play DLC dungeons, don't even bother buying them. And it's ok for me, I'm perfectly fine knowing not all the content is for me.

That's why the dungeons have normal mode as well. Generally speaking the normal modes aren't really all that hard. A semi competent pug group should have minimal difficulty completing them. Yes the vet versions are hard and they should be, there has to be some content for the players who have been around and playing the game since launch.

I'm playing this game since launch too. Even have the monkey beta pet lol. But I don't have enough time to be a hardcore player, that's all, instead I enjoy doing the vanilla random dungeons, new story zones and battlegrounds and that's ok for me. But sorry, I won't buy the DLC dungeons just to do the normal mode... no motif, no helmet, no title... it would be a waste.

BuddyAces · February 2019

LordTareq wrote: »

malicia wrote: »

@LordTareq

Won't you be able to do them on normal pretty easily? You don't have to do them on vet to get the drops or the story. Only the monster sets and the bragging right achievements are locked behind vet.

I see, I thought these DLC dungeons were only veteran mode.

No. They are easy on normal. You might have to get out of the red eventually but as long as you don't drool on yourself you'll be fine

Wifeaggro13 · February 2019

zvavi wrote: »

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

2. First time I tanked vSCP, I got killed. Again. And again. And again. It was the dungeon that thought me that I need to learn to tank, asap. It was hard and challenging, and to be honest? I am happy it was not a pug group. Second time it was a pug group, still passed it.

3. After doing it many times. Mostly pugging it. Most of the runs end up with us finishing the dungeon. I had runs with people that didn't know mechanics and couldn't understand English well. 3 of those who were there first time. Dd's with barely 30k DPS combined. Last boss runs when I ended up the only person alive few times during the fight that we passed. (I usually tank it when I pug because hardest role imo). I never kicked a person. Nor did I quit. All mechanics were passable for new players to the dungeon. We managed to pass it. I believe in that statement for most vet dlc content, excluding vFH, but I think it is because I didn't do it enough times. Exclude vWGT too, since you really need either god level coordination or 20k DPS on each dd to be able to do it(with a good tank) or 35k if the tank is lacking.

4. For dungeons you do first time, you should learn them with guildies in voice. Even if they don't know them yet, because yes, it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing, and needs at least one if not two members that know what they are doing to pass them well.

5. So other than dying. And dying. And dying. There is no other way to pass vet dlc. You, the people that are complaining, are totally right. DLC vet dungeons are totally challenging. and even if it feels like rng hates you and that you got wiped because of stupid random one shot mechanic, some people don't die from them that often or at all. It means you can get used to them too.

6. Please. If you pug those things. And you don't know mechanics. Say so in chat. If they plan on kicking those who don't know anyway, you will be kicked later on anyway. Better save wipes and frustration from people that are willing to stay and explain them. I called a guy an idiot because he lied about knowing mechanics. And then explained them. Finished the dungeon.

7. Some people don't have maelstrom weapons because they didn't manage to complete it. Those that are determined enough have them. Same with vet dlc dungeons. True, they are not easy. True they can be frustrating on your first run. But I almost managed to do no death in vSCP while the tank was there first time as tank and we were 3 dd's. Randomly. No plans on it what's so ever. Still was a speed run. (Death was one of the easier mechanics, the tank forgot to run to shield after Ice dudes). And one of the members were a dd which is afraid of this content like beast from fire. He thinks he plays bad and had barely 22k DPS when I started running vSCP with him (after making him punch a dummy for a while he is very happy with his growing damage on stamsorc without maelstrom bow, altmer, 32k and growing). And now he happily joins if I need some more hands. Honestly? If he can? Everyone can. Because he is one of those who complain it is to hard. He is one of those who are afraid of dying and don't want to pull the team back with "lack of skill". Also run it with NB tank 300 cp lady that has left our guild for some reason (still heartbroken, need more main tanks in my guild). I don't remember any wipes. Probably because was long ago, but 100% not more than 3 wipes. All of number 7, is connected back to numbers 1 2 and 3. It is possible. For those who try enough. Yes. It is end game content.

I mean. For all those who knows undertale. For some things. You gotta have DETERMINATION. So please. Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult. Either you have the determination and possibility to do it (old age and some extreme health problems are the only thing that comes to mind that can stop you from managing with determination). Or you don't try enough. And don't plan to.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS . (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

participation trophies are to blame it taught a whole genration it does not matter if you win or lose just show up and stand there and you will be rewarded

Agenericname · February 2019

Zathras wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

This all seems to have spawned from another recent thread where the phrase was used numerous times. I don't find it insulting at all in that context. I believe that the OP is referring to that/those threads, but I could be wrong.

Speaking generally to a broader audience, it would be difficult to enumerate all of the issues that could be considered "l2p" issues. I don't disagree that there's a better way to say it, but I find it more lazy than insulting.

If I encountered that inside of a dungeon I would likely feel different about it. I PUG a few vet DLCs, most that I have done. Most of the time they require a certain level of cooperation. Simply telling someone to "git gud" doesn't meet the criteria and doesn't offer the group a way forward. In that context it really serves no useful purpose, but I don't think that what's the OP was referring to.

Arunei · February 2019

Zathras wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult.

Thing is, it is almost always meant as a dismissive insult.

I read your entire post, and I agree (mostly) with what you are saying, aside from the above.

See, there are more constructive ways to convey to someone that they should improve. The best way is to show them, to take the time and do some mentoring. While that is more applicable for guilds, it does rarely happen in pugs by the more patient and extraordinary players. The next best way is to tell them, in voice chat or text, a way they can make the encounter better, or improve themselves in some way.

Do you know what "Git gud" and "L2P" do to someone who is new, or learning, or wanting to improve? It shuts them down. It is a deterrent, and they become less inclined to do that content again, let alone putting themselves out there to be social. Check out the ESO Reddit, and you'll come across multitudes of stories of people who were genuinely emotionally affected by this happening to them.

Yes, work towards your goals. Yes, accept that you will be defeated. But, making a lengthy post that buffers the message that "Git Gud" and "L2P" aren't negative messages? That they are positive, and incentives to improve yourself? Sorry man. I honestly do hear what you are saying, that you feel you are communicating helpful information, but you aren't.

Being on the receiving end of one of those comments isn't enlightening. It doesn't spur on a drive towards greatness. It makes you want to log out of the game and take a break.

Exactly this. I can't believe there's a thread where people are defending and even enabling this ridiculous 'git gud' and 'l2p' mentality. And people wonder why so few individuals want to bother with dungeons, when this is the sort of thing a lot of them have to look forward to.

In no way are either of those comments constructive or positive. They're rude, immature ways for people to say not only 'lol I'm better than you', it also conveys that you think it's not worth your time to actually explain things and help the player become better at the game. There is never any need to resort to telling people this unless you're specifically trying to demean and belittle them. People who already know how to play and who are good at it being told this BS b/c they have differing opinions is one thing; those people are already confident in their abilities, though even then it's really not acceptable to throw it in someone's face.

But for people who are honestly trying to learn and improve? Being told that is a blow to their confidence. It doesn't inspire people to get better or to work harder. Being told they literally aren't good enough is going to discourage them. If you genuinely mean to help someone, you aren't going to be the one telling them to 'git gud' and then feeling good about how you're superior over someone else at a video game. If you really want to help, you'll be the one giving them helpful, constructive advice, without being patronizing or holier-than-thou.

zvavi · February 2019

Believe it or not, but I understand people that get tired of wholesome long answers, when the other person won't even take the five minutes of hitting a dummy. I have personally dragged people to attack a dummy. While all had improvement, some of people's attitude was imo much worse than saying "git gud". Total dismissal of the time I have spent helping them. So yes. Maybe saying git gud is lazy, and while I never said it to anyone, I do feel like it sometimes

D0PAMINE · February 2019

As it stands now, telling someone L2P or git gud is basically calling them a clown.

orion_1981usub17_ESO · February 2019

I've played MMO's since everquest and online shooters since counter strike. Your don't tell people learn to play or git gud because your a cheery fellow that has concerns over his fellow gamers performance. You say these things because "your better than them", which you may very well be.

Of course, in eso, you can do most of the content alone (not all but most), even in the dungeons only a few of them have mechanics that prevent soloing. Only the harder tier content requires groups, like trails. So folks have ample room to not work together, not need to be good, or exploit the meta and min and max. But such folks don't typically stay around that long. Why does anyone bring this topic up then? Virtue signaling? Are you better than the "i'm better than you so git gud" crowd?

When I look at a games mechanics I judge the dungeons on how fun the mechanics are and how intuitive they are to over come. Sadly in most the dlc dungeons the stacking of timed mechanics, random mechanics, add mechanics, puzzle mechanics, and dps execute mechanics... are getting seriously tedious. You don't need to throw the kitchen sink into every boss fight in the dlc dungeons. They are getting ridiculous, and that's where eventually no one is gonna bother to git gud anymore. I don't bother with dungeons much any more, especially the newer ones that require you to dodge a toddlers projectile vomiting, while trying to find a restaurant your girl will like, while the kids chase the dogs through the house and your mother in law is gonna stop by at 7pm whether your ready or not. Seriously, tone it down.

In everquest, you couldn't leave a start zone with out a partner at least, and you better have a rogue friend to get your dead body when a train ran you over cause some monk wanted to help you git gud. It was tough those days, and we loved it! But I wouldn't go back there, because folks secretly don't like things that are really hard, they say they do but then wildstar failed because they listened to that BS!

Ohtimbar · February 2019

D0PAMINE wrote: »

As it stands now, telling someone L2P or git gud is basically calling them a clown.

Yup, and only clowns says those things, in my opinion. Either provide actual help, if requested and desired, or bugger off. Alas, some people get their depressing jollies by demeaning others.

Billdor · February 2019

zvavi wrote: »

Ok. So I read a lot of complaints about dlc dungeons being too hard by some players. And git gud comments from others. I wanted to express my opinion on it.

1. The git good comment. A lot of those that are using l2p and git good comments are people that have gone through many wipes in vet dlc dungeons. Many. The git gud comment usually don't come from "you don't know how to play" but from the understanding, that those dungeons need hard work and determination to complete. That you need to go in there and learn mechanics and die. Die. Die. Die.

2. First time I tanked vSCP, I got killed. Again. And again. And again. It was the dungeon that thought me that I need to learn to tank, asap. It was hard and challenging, and to be honest? I am happy it was not a pug group. Second time it was a pug group, still passed it.

3. After doing it many times. Mostly pugging it. Most of the runs end up with us finishing the dungeon. I had runs with people that didn't know mechanics and couldn't understand English well. 3 of those who were there first time. Dd's with barely 30k DPS combined. Last boss runs when I ended up the only person alive few times during the fight that we passed. (I usually tank it when I pug because hardest role imo). I never kicked a person. Nor did I quit. All mechanics were passable for new players to the dungeon. We managed to pass it. I believe in that statement for most vet dlc content, excluding vFH, but I think it is because I didn't do it enough times. Exclude vWGT too, since you really need either god level coordination or 20k DPS on each dd to be able to do it(with a good tank) or 35k if the tank is lacking.

4. For dungeons you do first time, you should learn them with guildies in voice. Even if they don't know them yet, because yes, it is a known fact that pugging vet dlc is a harsh thing, and needs at least one if not two members that know what they are doing to pass them well.

5. So other than dying. And dying. And dying. There is no other way to pass vet dlc. You, the people that are complaining, are totally right. DLC vet dungeons are totally challenging. and even if it feels like rng hates you and that you got wiped because of stupid random one shot mechanic, some people don't die from them that often or at all. It means you can get used to them too.

6. Please. If you pug those things. And you don't know mechanics. Say so in chat. If they plan on kicking those who don't know anyway, you will be kicked later on anyway. Better save wipes and frustration from people that are willing to stay and explain them. I called a guy an idiot because he lied about knowing mechanics. And then explained them. Finished the dungeon.

7. Some people don't have maelstrom weapons because they didn't manage to complete it. Those that are determined enough have them. Same with vet dlc dungeons. True, they are not easy. True they can be frustrating on your first run. But I almost managed to do no death in vSCP while the tank was there first time as tank and we were 3 dd's. Randomly. No plans on it what's so ever. Still was a speed run. (Death was one of the easier mechanics, the tank forgot to run to shield after Ice dudes). And one of the members were a dd which is afraid of this content like beast from fire. He thinks he plays bad and had barely 22k DPS when I started running vSCP with him (after making him punch a dummy for a while he is very happy with his growing damage on stamsorc without maelstrom bow, altmer, 32k and growing). And now he happily joins if I need some more hands. Honestly? If he can? Everyone can. Because he is one of those who complain it is to hard. He is one of those who are afraid of dying and don't want to pull the team back with "lack of skill". Also run it with NB tank 300 cp lady that has left our guild for some reason (still heartbroken, need more main tanks in my guild). I don't remember any wipes. Probably because was long ago, but 100% not more than 3 wipes. All of number 7, is connected back to numbers 1 2 and 3. It is possible. For those who try enough. Yes. It is end game content.

I mean. For all those who knows undertale. For some things. You gotta have DETERMINATION. So please. Next time you see l2p or git gud, don't take it as an insult. Either you have the determination and possibility to do it (old age and some extreme health problems are the only thing that comes to mind that can stop you from managing with determination). Or you don't try enough. And don't plan to.

PS: ye I got kicked from some vet dlc dungeons for saying "hey guys I don't know mechanics so please explain them before bosses", but some runs people explained and helped, and it was fun! Never again am I tanking vet dlc dungeons with 999 ping spikes though, vMoS . (And yes, still passed it, and I was the tank)

I'm a firm believer that you SHOULDN'T even attempt to queue for ANY vDLC dungeons unless you have read a breif overview of the mechanics. Why should the rest of the group suffer because you're a selfish prick (not you OP, the people within the context of this discussion)?