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Progression Atrophy & the NEED for Power Creep in ESO + Other Pain Points for Middle Tiered players

  • Jeremy
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    Nebthet78 wrote: »
    You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?

    The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.

    It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)

    Don't blame the game, blame to community.

    No. I want to fix a large part of the problem by CAPPING DPS to 50k while allowing continued Power Creep for the Middle and Lower Tiered players. Those, who who cannot take advantage of animation cancelling or effectively attack weave due to the horrendous server performance. Thus, preventing the ceiling from rising any further while allowing the lower floors to slowly rise to near that level.

    Yes. It is ZOS' fault players are not properly prepared for end game content. Anmation cancelling is not taught in ESO because it's a BUG, not an actual true intended feature of the game; nor is there proper training for attack weaving. Players have to go outside of the game, to Youtube or other places to get this information.

    This topic thread here, actually greatly shows the majority of issues a large portion of the player base has with Animation cancelling and attack weaving in the game.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458856/does-anyone-else-have-issue-with-light-attack-weaving-on-a-technical-level/p1

    Additionally, the level difference between Normal and Veteran and some Hard Mode Dungeons and Trials is the difference between Day and Night. Many players find Normal too easy, but find Veteran mind numbingly hard, and worst of all, Not Fun.
    There aren't proper stepping stones to Progression.
    This is why I'm also suggesting ZOS makes a third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet that will help to properly train players the mechanics of the dungeon. Perhaps they could even put in an option tutorial within it, and players could specify which boss they want to learn at that time. This would allow them to learn and prepare for the next level progression.
    We can't make normal dungeons harder, because that locks the lowest tiered players out of content.

    What's the point of creating these dungeons and trials when 95% of players don't want to play them?? The goal, at end game is getting more and more players into the content. Not cutting them out of it and in order for that to happen, ZOS has to completely stop the difficulty ceiling from rising any further, and allow these players to progress.
    Unfortunately, for the last 2 years, while ZOS was trying to lower the ceiling and raise the floor, all they did was raise the ceiling and create an even wider gap between that and the Middle Tiered players.
    By trying to Nerf what the Elite End game players use, and how they play, all they ended up doing was nerfing the Middle Tiered players the most.

    ZOS should also not be releasing content or armour designed around end game Elite players, Youtuber and Twitch streamers, and their ability to animation cancel/light attack weave. Just because the 1% can pull 50k+ dps, doesn't mean the 50% of Middle Tier players can.

    Look, if I had the technical know-how, I'd actually create a Add-on that would allow you to put your rotation in and then allow that to play through where you had to match the rotation as it game up on the screen. Think, Legends of Dragoon style game play, having to press the button at the right time the square came up on the screen. And then allow, as you get more comfortable with the parse, to make the rotation faster, until you eventually hit those numbers, either throught getting quicker clicking the buttons, or through the change up within your rotation.

    Problem is; I don't know how to make one of those.... and second... Someone should have to. Mechanics and game play should be fairly intuitive, but they aren't in this game. Part of it is due to ZOS not including proper tutorials where it's needed, and taking advantage of bugs to increase difficulty where they shouldn't. A large part is also due to a good majority of the player base of this game coming from the single player Elder Scrolls games. Not, from another MMO. The learning curve from the ES games to playing an ESO MMO is actually rather high, it's confusing and a lot of people can't wrap their heads around it.

    Most Middle Tiered players have made that transition. They have the baseline of the skills, but can't take advantage of rotations requiring the use of a systematic bug to increase their DPS properly, even though some will get a good rotation learned. hitting between 30-35k is extremely hard. Add unforgiving mechanics in new Vet Dungeons and Trials, where these players go to progress and get better, and you end up with players having less and less fun, getting frustrated, hating the content, and eventually leaving. Taking longer and longer breaks.

    You actually want content, where the Middle Tiered player can complete it... and then they want to go back and switch out one or two of their Core team players from time to time and bring in someone who maybe can't get 25-30k DPS through runs with them, to train them in the mechanics, so they get better, feel accomplished, and feel included. So these players can gain the confidence they need to keep pushing themselves to get better.
    What you don't want, is high end players taking advantage of others and selling runs for 2+million gold on an increasing basis.

    And now we are at a point, where ZOS has decided that once you reach 810CP for the foreseeable future (at least the next year) they are not allowing this to increase at all. Therefore freezing any progression (even if it was only 0.5-1%) these players might have received, that might have pushed them to keep trying. No Progression in Power = No Motiivation to condtinue to do the content.

    Example: Why buy the new Chapter, when you won't get the benefit of the power creep that comes with more XP earned? Some say progressing the story itsself will be enough.. but... I don't have to buy the Chapter to do that. I can watch a streamer go through that for me, and I still get the story. I'm not going to waste that XP seeing as we don't even know what ZOS is going to do to fix this issue. I don't think ZOS even knows.

    But, through threads like this... ZOS can at least take the time to read players concerns, and get a few ideas on what can be done to alleviate the glaring issue of the different skill levels in this game, so they can find a way to lessen this gap. It also lets them know there are serious pain points in other areas they may not have considered that need addressing that are faced by these players.

    It took me awhile to understand your point. But I think I have finally grasped it.

    You are always going to have a degree of "power creep" on any game that has vertical progression. That is the whole point of a leveling system so that you grow more powerful as you gain experience and content becomes easier. But this game manages it better than most - primarily due to the scaling effect of it's content. There is also the sweeping nerfs to general aspects of the game's combat (such as the sustain and shield nerfs) which is essentially like down-leveling everyone.

    But in respect to DPS particularly - you do have a point. There seems to be a massively wide berth between players when it comes to the amount of damage they do. Since I rarely play damage dealers myself, I don't have a lot of personal insight as to why that may be the case. But I find it unlikely there is just some massive skill gap among players. That they are exploiting a bug or unintended aspect of combat seems more likely to me. And if the developers chose to cater to that specific play style instead of correcting it - I can see how that would further alienate players who did not use those methods and lead to what you term as "progression atrophy".

    Unfortunately at this point it's likely that your only options is to either get on the train or get left behind.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 15, 2019 10:05PM
  • lokulin
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    I'm sorry, but life is not fair. Why should you be able to do vcr +3 if you're struggling to pull 30k + self buffed? Everyone is capable of high dps, there are countless build videos, people actually teaching rotations step by step. You can google animation cancelling, weaving and everything related to dps. If you're not prepared to practice, you're not prepared for veteran content. The game doesn't force you to do hard stuff but if you want to just work for it instead of typing an essay that won't change anything.

    It just reminds me of myself a year and a half ago when I didn't know better. But it took time, research and practice to overcome that barrier. If you're unwilling to work for it you shouldn't complain.

    As one smart man once said: "Just do it!"

    Life is not fair, but games don't have to be.
    I've hidden your signature.
  • RavenSworn
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    Putting some thoughts out for the op.

    1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.

    2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.

    3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.

    4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.

    5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.

    6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.


    Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).

    Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
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  • Rungar
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    i think they lost their way with the dlc dungeons. Partially because of the mechanics and partially because they didnt attempt improve anything or try anything new.

    the other sore point is the weaving which i think should be reworked. I know some enjoy it but i think it keeps alot more from enjoying the game especially the dungeons above. Because of weaving the game is known as a buttonmasher.

    final sore point is the stat stacking, which is not the worst but it would be nice to scale back the weapon and spell dmg ( even 50%) you get from mag and stam a bit so the odd hybrid build could be utilized.

    other than that its a great game.



    We shall know them by their works.
  • VaranisArano
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    I'm sorry, but life is not fair. Why should you be able to do vcr +3 if you're struggling to pull 30k + self buffed? Everyone is capable of high dps, there are countless build videos, people actually teaching rotations step by step. You can google animation cancelling, weaving and everything related to dps. If you're not prepared to practice, you're not prepared for veteran content. The game doesn't force you to do hard stuff but if you want to just work for it instead of typing an essay that won't change anything.

    It just reminds me of myself a year and a half ago when I didn't know better. But it took time, research and practice to overcome that barrier. If you're unwilling to work for it you shouldn't complain.

    As one smart man once said: "Just do it!"



    One of the points the OP makes is that due to the development of how high DPS works - namely, the emphasis on precise timing of light attack weaving - many players who suffer from lag or other internet issues simply can't reach high DPS numbers, or at least not the top tier DPS numbers that are pushing the limit on content ever upwards. The empowerment of Light Attack Weaving as a major combat mechanic is no accident that players should magically understand - ZOS buffed it in Summerset and the only place its mentioned in game is a Level-Up Advisor tip. Furthermore, I think its pretty inarguable that ESO has issues with lag for many players, even in PVE.

    At a certain point, practice with a training dummy isn't going to help if your internet connection won't let you perform.


    So we wind up in a odd position.

    First, ZOS determines how players reach top DPS. When they buffed light attacks with Summerset, light attack weaving became even more important. Anyone who can't (for whatever reason - lack of practice, poor internet, disability, etc.) fell further behind the high tier players who can.

    Then, ZOS pushes development of new content aimed at the high tier of players who can reach high DPS. The new content has stacked mechanics and low margins of error that favor high DPS because that makes the content more forgiving. This obviously makes it that much harder on the players who were being left behind in the first place.

    On top of that, when ZOS nerfs/changes class/gear/mechanics every single update, DPS losses impact the middle tier far more than the high tier. The high tier has the experience with completing the harder content to help them to repeated completions, while the middle tier doesn't and now has an even harder time.


    What's the solution?

    Well, I don't really have one. Light attack weaving is a feature, not a bug. Obviously, players have to practice and put the effort in. There will always be lag and other issues. Those are pretty inarguable.

    On the other hand, if ZOS is finding that the way they've guided the development of high DPS is disadvantaging players dealing with lag and other issues, they chould reconsider how they've developed high DPS. As I said above, the emphasis on light attack weaving isn't an accident - ZOS deliberately buffed that meta. They can change the meta to whatever they want.

    Also, ZOS should be keeping a close eye on whether there is a growing gap between the high tier (who can complete the harder content with stacked mechanics and low margins for error) and the middle tier (who can't). If there is a growing gap, then ZOS needs to look at fixing that gap. I don't have the data to prove that gap, just the anecdotes here, but ZOS certainly would.

    Fixing that gap, if it is statistically significant, could mean redesigning DPS so that the largest increases don't come from precise light attack weaving. It could mean that ZOS moves away from creating new content with stacked mechanics or gives larger margins for error.

    I don't know.
    Edited by VaranisArano on February 16, 2019 11:55PM
  • Zypheran
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    Good post. Brave, it was always going to get some attacks but it needs to be said. DPS has become more a factor with internet connection than CP. The right gear and CP will see you to about 30k dps but beyond that it comes down to the capacity of your connection (i.e. lag and ping) as to whether you will exceed beyond this.
    I have never minded much. This game offers so much that I really don't miss out on the serious end of game super hard vet mode content. However, I do get just a little annoyed when I read people say things like "40k dps is easy, if you cant do it you need to just l2p!". I understand that for some people, its easy but please, don't be an ass... some people just don't have the connection bandwidth to pull off the lag-free precision required to LA weave and ani-cancel with the clockwork precision required to hit 40-50k dps.
    I'm not asking that content be altered to suit my laggy connection. But it would be nice if people would stop being so dismissive of the genuine issue that people have trying to achieve numbers north of 30k dps. It would be nice to see some content released that falls between normal dungeons and the new super hard, mechanics heavy dlc dungeons that they seem to now only release.
    There are 4 dungeons released every year now. Surely even one of these could be medium difficulty dungeons?
    I'll play the game my way and you play it your way!
  • VaranisArano
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    RavenSworn wrote: »
    Putting some thoughts out for the op.

    1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.

    2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.

    3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.

    4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.

    5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.

    6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.


    Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).

    Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.

    Bolded the parts I want to speak to.

    Teamwork is absolutely important and necessary. As you say, DPS isn't the whole story. It takes a team.

    However, high DPS makes ESO' content a lot easier. It makes mechanic-heavy boss fights more forgiving. When a mistake in a fight can cause a group wipe, high DPS means the fight goes faster and there's less pressure on the team overall.

    This is why we've been seeing DPS requirements creep upwards. The more punishing the stacked mechanics get and the lower the margins for error get in the DLC dungeons and the new trials, the more DPS people want in the group because it makes the run easier.

    Definitely, tanks and healers have to be on top of their role. But consider the difference in the experience of a tank and healer with different levels of DPS. With high DPS relative to the content requirement, they have to do their job. With DPS that's barely sufficient to pass the content, they have to do their job...for a much longer time. The more punishing the mechanics and lower margins of error, the more spot-on the tank and the healer have to be, and the lower the DPS, the longer everyone in the group has to go without making a mistake. We see this with Vet Dungeons a lot, as many tanks dislike being paired with low DPS groups and Vet DLC dungeons have the reputation of being unPUGable due to a combination of low DPS and high teamwork requirements.

    The longer the fight goes on, the more likely it is that someone is going to make a mistake. The newer, harder content is very punishing when someone makes a mistake. High DPS just makes most runs easier because it puts less pressure on the team to have pitch-perfect teamwork. Whereas DPS that is just sufficient to clear the content means that the teamwork requirement is much higher, and on the newer content, can get pretty grueling over a long fight.


    So when we say that the newer, harder content is being gated off, the "gate" isn't about level of playstyle. The "gate" is of two types.
    1. Can you do enough DPS to get invited to a group to do the content?
    2. Can your group execute the mechanics well enough to complete the content?

    In both cases, ZOS' continued direction of development towards stacking mechanics and low margins of error is making both of those gates harder to clear. Because high DPS makes the newer content easier to clear and even sufficient DPS puts more pressure on the group's teamwork, #1 is steadily creeping upwards. The de jure required DPS to clear the content hasn't changed, but the de facto expectation is for high DPS. That's because of #2, where high DPS makes it easier to execute the mechanics because you have to do them less times and there are less chances at making punishing mistakes.
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    You want to "fix" all of the so called pain points by re-introducing power creep?

    The problem is that people don't have what it takes to get better. Why do you think top guilds are like that? They put time and effort into all their runs. They run with the same group a few times a week.

    It's not ZoS' fault that there aren't many guilds that offer training. You can't expect an end game raiding guild to teach you craglorn hard modes, you have to learn it with a different team. The only way to get better is to go through the "guild" ladder and actually work on your characters. The problem on PS4 EU for example is that there are very few guilds who actually put time and effort into training new to end game people. It's a huge commitment that is draining the guild leaders because many feel like their guild is stepping stone into a better team (in most cases it's true)

    Don't blame the game, blame to community.

    Can we also blame the game that doesn't teach players how to do proper DPS beyond what's required for overland questing?

    ESO utterly fails to teach players how to actually perform at the level required for end-game content. You need guilds and streamers and build-makers for that. The game itself will not prepare you.


    One of the points made in the OP's post is that the very progression guilds you are pointing to are struggling with bashing their heads in against the new content with its stacked mechanics and low margins for error.

    That's something I pointed out earlier this thread - the DPS/experience gap. Some guilds are able to complete the content, and so repeated completions become easier due to experience even if ZOS nerfs their skill/class/gear. Some guilds/players are struggling to complete already, so when ZOS nerfs class/gear/skills, they dont have experience to fall back on and suffer more than the top tier.

    So we actually can blame the game. ESO doesnt prepare players well, which puts the burden on guilds. Then, progression guilds are exactly who suffers the most from the constant rounds of nerfs and major gameplay changes that the Devs roll out with every update because they don't have the top tier's experience of completions to fall back on. As end game content continues to build into stacked mechanics and low margins for error, the situation gets worse (and anecdotally, less fun) for guilds and their members.

    Its easy to say people don't have what it takes to get better.

    The point of what's being discussed here is that the design of new content and the nerfs/gameplay changes aimed at the top tier players is making it disproportionately harder on the middle tier of players who are trying to get better because they suffer more than the top tier who can already complete the content.


    The contention is that ZOS has created a gap between the high tier and middle tier of players, and that by continuing to develop endgame content featuring stacked mechanics and punishing margins for error which benefit those who have completion experience, they are widening that gap.

    I'm not sure that DPS caps and power creep are the answer, but I don't have an answer to the situation.
    @VaranisArano gets it.

    Whatever tier you're currently at, you don't unlearn whatever got you to that point. It's likely second nature by now. Autopilot.

    The problem is the lack of clear method to advance to the next tier. There's obviously more to it than what most assume is obvious. There are subtleties involved that are not readily apparent to the one trying to move ahead. If they were, they wouldn't be hitting roadblocks.

    What those subtleties are is different for each individual, and a well designed game will have things built in to help improve and point out those things. Of course the best results should come from high tier mentoring, because the human factor will be able to see and point out things in much greater detail than anything coded will any time soon.

    There are videos and guides for days showing builds, rotations, parses, etc. There is a difference between any two pairs of hand that pick up the same baseline and how it ultimately performs. Practice is part of it, but I tend to think it's a smaller part than some try to give credit for.

    I don't want to just see the top ender's hitting 70k with BiS golded gear. I'd like to see someone relatively new, someone that can't break 10k/20k to save their life go through the step-by-step realization process to get to 30/40/60k with explanation of how and why it happened.

    If there was a clear path to assist in that transition, then it would come down to personal skill and dedication alone. At that point the differences would be perfectly acceptable across the board.

    As it stands, whatever level you're at, I suspect you can scarcely remember a time when you didn't know all you know now.

    The answer does not (solely) rely on gear, CP, or any one thing to achieve this, and I believe the one area both the "floor" and the "ceiling" can agree on is that the thing in the middle to bridge those gaps is very much lacking in the current design.

    If they want to design content to a certain level of player, that's fine. They should also provide the tools and methods to allow majority to get to the level.
    (Tripping over things in the dark endlessly until one happens across the exit does not qualify as a proper tool.)
    • "Get good"
    • "Don't die"
    • "Practice"
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
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  • RavenSworn
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    RavenSworn wrote: »
    Putting some thoughts out for the op.

    1) there is simply no advantage going for either super hardcore or super casual in an mmo. It is always, almost always content that can cater to both.

    2) hardcore or casual really depends on the type of player you are. You might be casual in time taken but the effort taken might be herculean. Which means you squeeze out every second you are online ingame. You might also be a beta monkey, but you take your time clearing content. You might be also be spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in game but spending the least amount of time or effort in it too.

    3) it just means that the player base is too diverse to effectively gate content or peg players to the right content. A big cp number does not equate to a better player. Nor do time played or achievements gained. There are certain stuff that can show signs of skill eg flawless titles or skins but ultimately, a new character in the hands of a veteran will definitely be better than a new player throughout.

    4) dps numbers don't mean anything if there isn't any teamwork in the first place. What's the use of having great dps without a tank taking the hits? Healers to dish out healing? All of the dungeons, and I do mean all, can be done with great teamwork, not just great numbers.

    5) difficulty is hard to balance in this game because it is gated content. 1Tamriel made it so there isn't any gated content (overland at least) and that skews alot of players perspectives for dungeon content.

    6) The difficulty difference between a dlc dungeon and a base dungeon is significant, it's worse when either are veteran. But players themselves make it harder than it already is. Again, it's not just about dps numbers. It's about teamwork. It's about pulling your weight with role given upon you.


    Here's the rub though. You don't need 50, 60 or 70k to finish up a dlc dungeon. It's better but again, see 4).

    Middle tiered players aren't stopped at any place of the game. It's not about not being able to make it to the next level. It's about ZoS not being clear with that gated content because of the sheer amount of un-gated ones. How do you explain dlc zones with different difficulty dlc dungeons? There's just not much information ingame to explain all that and it was left to the hands of the players. Therein lies the issue here. The player base are too diverse, the player scope encompasses too many things for it to be left to them.

    Bolded the parts I want to speak to.

    Teamwork is absolutely important and necessary. As you say, DPS isn't the whole story. It takes a team.

    However, high DPS makes ESO' content a lot easier. It makes mechanic-heavy boss fights more forgiving. When a mistake in a fight can cause a group wipe, high DPS means the fight goes faster and there's less pressure on the team overall.

    This is why we've been seeing DPS requirements creep upwards. The more punishing the stacked mechanics get and the lower the margins for error get in the DLC dungeons and the new trials, the more DPS people want in the group because it makes the run easier.

    Definitely, tanks and healers have to be on top of their role. But consider the difference in the experience of a tank and healer with different levels of DPS. With high DPS relative to the content requirement, they have to do their job. With DPS that's barely sufficient to pass the content, they have to do their job...for a much longer time. The more punishing the mechanics and lower margins of error, the more spot-on the tank and the healer have to be, and the lower the DPS, the longer everyone in the group has to go without making a mistake. We see this with Vet Dungeons a lot, as many tanks dislike being paired with low DPS groups and Vet DLC dungeons have the reputation of being unPUGable due to a combination of low DPS and high teamwork requirements.

    The longer the fight goes on, the more likely it is that someone is going to make a mistake. The newer, harder content is very punishing when someone makes a mistake. High DPS just makes most runs easier because it puts less pressure on the team to have pitch-perfect teamwork. Whereas DPS that is just sufficient to clear the content means that the teamwork requirement is much higher, and on the newer content, can get pretty grueling over a long fight.


    So when we say that the newer, harder content is being gated off, the "gate" isn't about level of playstyle. The "gate" is of two types.
    1. Can you do enough DPS to get invited to a group to do the content?
    2. Can your group execute the mechanics well enough to complete the content?

    In both cases, ZOS' continued direction of development towards stacking mechanics and low margins of error is making both of those gates harder to clear. Because high DPS makes the newer content easier to clear and even sufficient DPS puts more pressure on the group's teamwork, #1 is steadily creeping upwards. The de jure required DPS to clear the content hasn't changed, but the de facto expectation is for high DPS. That's because of #2, where high DPS makes it easier to execute the mechanics because you have to do them less times and there are less chances at making punishing mistakes.

    Which shouldn't happen in the first place. High dps should be optional, not a requirement. The team should be able to work together, it is a four man dungeon with different roles, not a four man one role dungeon.

    When content gets trivialised... It gets boring. Players start asking for more content because the initial one gets done too fast. On the other hand, regular players, players with limited bandwidth, with limited mobility, with slower reactions are pushed out of the dungeon scene.

    Players then start making arbitrary numbers to justify entry just because they have this sense of entitlement for cp levels. "kick if below 300cp" "kick if not above 800" "looking for only max cp players". It's a skewed perspective for sure.

    Those numbers indicate only time taken, not the actual player skills.

    But I digress.

    The issue at hand is power atrophy, which I'm laughably pointing out that dps numbers are getting higher. The sense of progression isn't lost, it's merely switched to content, rather than player levels.

    The actual progression differs greatly from other mmos. It's normal base dungeons - vet base dungeons - normal trials - normal dlc dungeons - vet dlc dungeons - vet trials. How many of us actually do it this way? Is there even an official list stating so?
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    @VaranisArano - thank you for your perspective. You and the OP do get it. I'd send cookies if I could!
  • Liww
    Liww
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    they should buff every skills base damage and nerf the crap out of cp modifiers, atleast that's raising the floor and lowering the ceiling in terms of output(healing/dmg/whatever really). it's probably easier to balance aswel, but idk if it's more fun.

    All I gotta say is that CP takes too long to cap.
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    Borderlands 2 had a really great system of infinite progression. You could make your characters stronger and stronger by gathering acheivements, then resetting them and doing them again. Some were really hard or tedious, but it was part of the end game for people who had colllected all the gear and done everything else. The increase in power was shared across all your characters, so you could start a new one that was already more powerful at level 1 than a typical level 1.

    All of this sounds a little like CP. Except... you had the option to turn off this extra power very easily. One setting. People did that a lot for testing weapon combos, showing training dummy numbers, etc. or just for the extra challenge in certain content.

    I think such a setting in ESO could be useful for people complaining about power creep. They could easily take some of their own power away.

    But I suspect most of these people don’t really want to make things harder just for themselves. They want to make things harder for other people. It is a strange way of thinking, but common. They feel they have leet skills, and other people who don’t have such skills are unworthy and should have a harder time achieving worthwhile things. Even though it’s just a game. But hopefully ZoS knows that pleasing such people is no way to make a successful video game.
  • Svidrir
    Svidrir
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    It should be that ZOS make the "cut anim" useless, how that I do not know.
    Ulaan Baator sorcier bdsm
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    So I have read your "book" OP (quite a long post) and I partially agree. There is also one thing worth mentioning:
    How big % of player base are the "elite" players ? 7% ? 5% 1% ? ?

    The game should be balanced around majority of players, not the minority. If the hardest content is too easy for elite players then it is their "problem" (seriously, you are too good and you complain that content is too easy ? Wh.. Why would you do that ? And why is that even a problem ? ? :open_mouth: )
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 26, 2019 8:38AM
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