Progression Atrophy & the NEED for Power Creep in ESO + Other Pain Points for Middle Tiered players

Nebthet78

This is a topic I feel requires serious discussion as many feel their point of view is not being taken seriously by ZOS, especially after the disappearance of another discussion thread, which contained many good points and outlined the Pain Points being felt by Medium Tiered players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457975/most-mmos-have-power-creep-here-at-eso-we-have-power-atrophy-and-i-am-pretty-sick-of-it/p5

I've essentially written an essay in regards to the issues brought up, and why they are pain points. I'll break this into 7 different parts to make reading easier. Props to those who actually take the time to read and understand the point of view.

Part1:

As had been pointed out, most MMOs have a form of Power Creep. Whether it is from raised stats from Armor or from a modified vertical and horizontal progression system, it is there. As new content is released, older content becomes easier to finish. This allows newer players and those whom may not be as skilled of a player, to be able to eventually complete the content they paid for.

ESO is in its’ 5thyr now, and we are still at a point in this game where, I feel developers aren’t really sure where they want to take things for the long term, or don’t know how to get there. There are only so many times you can reinvent things before players get fed up.
Of contention this time is the halting any CP progression for the foreseeable future, while ZOS figures this out.

Who is this halting of the CP system going to hurt the most?
The Average, Middle Tiered players who need the continued Power Creep in order to do the harder content. It isn’t enough for these players to be stuck doing normal permanently. Once you reach a certain level of skill and competence, normal content becomes too easy. Especially in group play.

When ZOS changed the leveling system from Veteran to Champion Points, they also removed the caps on our Character Stats. In the beginning, this wasn’t much of an issue, because the different Tiers of players were much closer then, than they are today, despite the difference in actual skill. For players wanting to do Veteran Trials, the requirement was a 20k DPS.

Unfortunately, ZOS didn’t take into account the players who would exploit the system so quickly and would grind out 1000s of CP in a couple of days so they could wipe other players in PVP and other content. So they capped the CP system and only allowed for small increments to increase every couple of months. This was an acceptable change as it still allowed players to progress.

Part2:

Part of the unseen consequences of this system however, was the fact we began to see a significant widening between player skill levels.

I noted these levels in a previous thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5758021/#Comment_5758021

As these player Tiers (Ceiling vs Floor) continued to increasingly widen, we also began to see forum posts where more skilled players were complaining the game was too easy, and Vet Trials were too easy. So, ZOS increased the CP level of Trials enemies, therefore making them harder to complete.

This rose up the ceiling even higher. Trials guilds were now requiring 25k-30k DPS to be allowed into core runs for Vet Trials. Players were locked out of the content they were able to enjoy previously. The only thing players had to compensate for the skill differential, was the small incremental increases in the CP system. The Power Creep.

Then it came out that Animation Cancelling was not something they could fix in the game because the systems it was attached to were necessary to allow for fast reactionary combat. ZOS didn’t know how to separate or compensate for that. So they openly declared it was not a cheat. It was a feature of the game. The elite end game players took it and ran and their DPS skyrocketed.

Unfortunately, for the majority of Middle Tiered players where Normal dungeons are too easy, but some Vet or Hard Modes are too hard, they are unable to use animation cancelling for a variety of reasons; Server Performance being notoriously the largest reason.

Nebthet78

Part3:

ZOS had obviously seen the issue. The Power differential between the Floor’s casual players and the Ceiling’s High End Elite gamers, and they tried looking at ways to “Lower the Ceiling and raise the Floor”.

This was actually an epic failure. You can’t lower a ceiling by nerfing skills all players use. All that was accomplished was the change in Meta. Casual players didn’t bother to notice any difference because they didn’t care or were not at a level they would notice.
The higher Elite players just changed up the Meta, as they could work within the systems to compensate much easier than everyone else to proc the new armor sets more effectively.
It’s the Middle Tiered players who found themselves nerfed again and again and again.

With these changes to “lower the ceiling and raise the floor” over the last couple of years, I’m now sitting at 10k less DPS than I began; All because ZOS decided to spearhead the Light Attack weave and Animation Cancelling Meta. A form of gameplay that is highly affected by server lag, player internet connections, whether a player uses a keyboard, mouse or Controller. These are things Middle Tiered players are unable to compensate for. Only Power Creep, no matter how insignificant would allow these players to eventually compensate for what they were unable to physically accomplish through regular skilled game play.

Those players who use Controllers, rather than Mice and Keyboards are handicapped in this game on PC, especially if you have to use an additional third party program because of the type of controller you use.

There are some players who say that Power Creep is an illusion. And to some players, it may be. But for those who need the creep. It’s certainly no illusion. 1% improvement is still an improvement. It might give them that very slight edge to once again be included in certain guild runs, or to finish VMA where they couldn’t before.
Psychologically, people need to feel like they are improving to be able to continue to do something. They need to feel rewarded.

Sadly, while CP was being increased by that small amount; ZOS was also nerfing skills and armor sets. It did nothing to solve the issue of the power differential and instead continue to create a wider gap where the Middle Tiered players either didn’t progress or felt weaker, even when trying the new Meta.

As new content was released, ZOS decided to make them harder in an attempt to match the significant power creep of the higher elite players who were loudly stating the game was getting too easy. Vet HOF and Vet Cloudrest saw significant increase in mechanics required. Then they also released Blackrose Prison; where they threw the whole sink, dirty dishes and all, into the Arena.

Part4:

ZOS has essentially failed in all forms of balancing and bringing the ceiling in line with the floor of ESO. They refuse to admit it, and seem to shut people up on the forums when they point it out to them.
If you can’t admit your failure, you can’t improve.

Players seem to blame the CP system for the issue, when it’s not the system itself that’s the problem. It’s the fact that ZOS never bothered to put a Roof over the Ceiling to begin with, and the High Elite Players, don’t want one. They don’t want their DPS Capped. BUT that’s what is needed!!!
It’s the only way to prevent the DPS gap from getting any wider.

New content being released also has too many mechanics added to them in an attempt to slow down the DPS of the Elite, who can stack and burn bosses where others can’t.
This has made the game less Fun for the upper Middle Tiered players who are working their butts off to clear the newer Vet Trials, like Vet Cloudrest +2-+3.

More and more trials progression guilds, let alone social guilds are imploding because players are NOT having FUN anymore, especially after dealing with VCR. It’s tedious, unrewarding, mind numbingly frustrating. These Upper Middle/lower Elite guilds, work their butts off to complete this content, despite the lack of Fun, and the added frustration, and once they do. They may do it once or twice more; then NEVER go back again. There’s a reason why they call Vet Cloudrest the guild killer.

This is a clear indication ZOS has taken the game in the wrong direction; when, good players, who can easily get between 33k-45k DPS are struggling so hard, due to too many stacked mechanics, who view and experience the content not as a challenge, but as tedious, mind numbing, NON-FUN, hate-fest. Content needs to be scaled enough, these type of players can, not only clear it, but find it enjoyable and want to clear it over and over again, and bring their different guild mates into it.

@xaraan clearly notates his experiences with Vet Dungeons and Trials in the following post from this thread and the Pain Points, which are very much the issues being echoed throughout guilds by the upper Middle Tiered/lower Elite players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5810503/#Comment_5810503

Nebthet78

Part5:

ZOS needs to take a hard look as to how, and for whom they are balancing this game around.
It’s been noticed in several circles as of late, that this game is starting to clearly be balanced around the High End Elite Hardcore players. Members of the High Elite players have shoehorned their way into the Class Rep program and ensuring their interests are being catered to, while those concerns and issues of the Middle Tiered players are being suppressed or ignored.

The changes happening in this game over the last 6 months clearly show this. Even taking a look at the current PTS cycle shows a clear indication ZOS is listening far too much to these players instead of taking it as advice and changing things with the majority Middle Tiered players in mind.

Example: The first release of the PTS for racial changes was actually fairly balanced. One exception was the Khajiit race being obviously overpowered. This was told to ZOS in the PTS forums.
@HatchetHaro was able to show this through testing on the PTS and He then added in data for each PTS update since. You can read his thread here.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454547/dps-data-and-analysis-on-racial-passives-through-all-pts-cycles-updated-with-4-3-2-magplar-data/p1

Then the following thread came out in the Combat section of the forum and then the Next change in the PTS which completely upended what balance ZOS did have and indicates where they intend to take things, let alone broke Racial Lore with it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Part6:

Catering to the Elite Tier of the game while completely ignoring the progression of the Middle Tiered players is not healthy for the game.

Why?

Due to the vast majority of this game is made up of Casual and Average Moderate ability players. Systems should not be balanced in a way that requires the use of Animation Cancelling, which a majority of the player base is unable to accomplish, and is not intuitive game play. There isn’t even a system in the game that teaches you how to animation cancel, you have to go to Youtube for that. Attack weave –Yes. Animation Cancel – No.

Gameplay mechanics now are extremely unforgiving in newer Vet + HM Trials and Dungeons. You have to be on point each time, every time, there is no room for error, or you wipe the whole group. There are so many mechanics and abilities going off, that it’s just too much. It’s overwhelming. People want different and interesting mechanics, not the whole sink and dirty dishes too. There needs to be a 3rd Tier of difficulty added in between Normal and Vet modes, even if only for Trials to allow for an intuitive transition between content.

This is why we are seeing requests for Story mode now. Players are fed up with the number of mechanics and the difficulty, while they feel they are getting weaker. Players are not going to pay for a DLC when they know they are never going to be able to complete the hardest mode of it. That’s bad for business.

Players want to play a game, where they can, over time be able to power up enough to overcome their disability, or their play style, to be able to eventually play through all the content they have paid for. They want to feel like they are actually progressing in a meaningful way through all the content this game offers. They want and need the Power Creep, BUT there needs to be a Roof put on how much any single player can achieve. DPS MUST be capped.

Additionally, the Class Representative Program must be scrutinized. The Class Rep program is filled with Top end Elite players, Youtubers and Twitch Steamers. The information they give is in fact valuable as they are able to achieve and showcase where certain things are imbalanced within certain systems of the game. HOWEVER, this information must be taken with the foreknowledge that these players want things harder for themselves, and they don’t want to see their own damage get capped, even if it allows for a vast majority of other players to continue to increase in power to eventually achieve the same level of DPS these elite players can pull off today. The don’t and won’t represent any player who is below their skill level. Additionally, Youtube and Twitch Steamers play the game to make money for themselves. Anything that could disrupt their ability to make this money, goes against this self-interest.

They haven’t even updated their Class Rep Discord Channels so any player who wants to be part of the discussion can be part of the discussion.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels#latest

Therefore, I feel that while the information the Class Representative program provides may be invaluable in terms of the Max achievable DPS and some balance issues. That information then needs to be put into the context of what the Majority of players are able to do with it, and ZOS needs to balance the game around the Middle Tier of Players, and not the TOP tier.

Nebthet78

Part7:

ZOS has always stated that they have all this Data about how many people are completing dungeons, what their DPS is, how often are they running, etc. etc. They need to be looking at this data and referring to it. How many players are running VHof or VCR +2-+3? How many are on the leader boards for these? Are those characters currently on the leader boards, owned by the same players? If so, how many? How many players are completing this content, and then NEVER STEPPING IN IT AGAIN??

They need to take the time and speak with a couple of these Middle Tiered Progressive Raid groups and their leaders to hear first-hand, what their pain points are, and why they are not having fun, or running the new content again after they complete it.

What can be done to help balance the game and to alleviate some of these pain points?

- Power Creep needs to continue in this game, but it does need to be Capped (say, 45-50k).
It’s time for ZOS to put a roof over the Highest Ceiling. All players should be able to eventually complete all content they paid for. Even if it takes them 7yrs of eventual power creep through any system; they’ll eventually get there.
In PvP, this could mean setting the max DPS at a certain level as well, or having all NO CP campaigns.
But, if I’m not going to progress in power for the foreseeable future, why should I bother buying the new DLC, or the New Chapter?? The story isn’t enough. I can watch someone else play and get the story without paying.

- With Capped DPS, then a pure horizontal progression begins, where CP can be spent on quality of life items rather on points that provide more power. Ie: Increased bank space. A fourth CP tree can be created for this, or allowing players to put points into the trees, say into resistances for Trials so they don’t have to keep changing them all the time.

- Third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet Dungeons and Trials needs to be created. Raising the difficulty of Normal is not acceptable, as you will again be locking a vast majority of your casual players out of that content. An intuitive middle tier of difficulty that allows your players to learn the mechanics without being overwhelmed in required.

- Mechanics that allow for room of error. Players shouldn’t have to be on point 100% of the time, or wipe the run. Those type of mechanics are not Fun and players are less likely to repeatedly run content that had mechanics like this.

I would like to build more on this conversation. Posting trolling comments like git gud, or L2P is not providing constructive feedback or discussion, but are considered trolling. I would like to hear others thoughts on this, from those who both agree or disagree.

Juhasow

Just stop it already. Power creep in ESO is raising doesnt matter low middle or high tier. If You'll tell me that low or mid tier players are weaker now then they were in the past and it's harder to achieve certain low or mid tier goals now then You can just say nothing at this point.

SoLooney

Power creep is already significant

There were times were 30k dps was top tier, then short after 40k was the new standard. Then surely enough it was 50k and slowly creeping towards 55k plus

Not to mention support sets increasing this even more significantly where good dps are parsing 70k plus and stamina nightblades well over 80k

Pve dps is already pretty insane and the gear to get that dps is very easy to farm or straight up buy from traders or other players

It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has. Heck, look at that new dungeon skin that you can get if you just clear it on vet. Not very special if a lot of people can now obtain it

New trials come out once maybe twice a year, and that's really all the hardcore players get out of new content. Maybe the dlc dungeons too.

With the current max cp of 810. You can spec a lot of points into recovery, damage, and mitigation. Making clearing older content a lot easier

Also. Most of the vet trial content are years old, theres tons of guides on the internet and on YouTube. If people cant clear the older vet trials, then that group needs to work on dps, mechanics, communication and teamwork. Cause hitting that 40k plus dps is not that hard at all, theres tons of videos and guides on rotations to hit those numbers

I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

Sylvermynx

Very interesting read, @Nebthet78. I don't belong in any of the "levels" you discuss because my ping is so abysmal I'm actually doing well just staying alive in overland (yep, overland is NOT EASY for me....)

I bookmarked this thread, as the premise you're stating is, I think, quite important for the eventual health of the game (whether I can actually ever play all the content or not).

Camb0Sl1ce

I don't think damage should be capped, but i think power creep is necessary though. If you never feel stronger and are just kinda "there" why push yourself harder?

TheInfernalRage

30k was already enough at one point. Now, we have 40k-50k.

Is not that much power for you?

This is accurate:

SoLooney wrote: »

I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

Mr_Walker

SoLooney wrote: »

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has.

That's good. Those "casuals" are the folk who make up the bulk of the game. They are the folk buying crown store items, and the ESO+ subs so they can dye their cosmetics, not the 1% who gripe and moan the game's too easy for their leet skills.

They are the ones keeping the lights on.

Bear that in mind next time you think about casuals in any sort of derogatory fashion.

Sylvermynx

Mr_Walker wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has.

That's good. Those "casuals" are the folk who make up the bulk of the game. They are the folk buying crown store items, and the ESO+ subs so they can dye their cosmetics, not the 1% who gripe and moan the game's too easy for their leet skills.

They are the ones keeping the lights on.

Bear that in mind next time you think about casuals in any sort of derogatory fashion.

Have an awesome.... you nailed me. Yep, I'm a filthy casual - one who can't even manage to complete the questing content. But I still enjoy - even love! - the game.

Dagoth_Rac

One of the best posts ever. I did Vet DLC dungeons in hard modes, Vet Trials, etc., for years after ESO came out. All of my guilds have collapsed over the last year or so. These were good players. We used voice chat, had the right gear, right skills, and had rotations. It would take us a while to clear content (often measured in months, not days or even weeks), but we could see ourselves making progress, week by week. And once we cleared content, it was possible to get it "on farm".

We were not scrubs in mismatched green gear spamming bow light attacks on magicka characters. We were good players. Normal on everything is a faceroll and boring for us. Roughly starting with Morrowind, but getting worse and worse as time has gone on, Veteran just about anything became way too difficult and time consuming. The mechanics were utterly unforgiving. The need to have absolute, split-second perfect timing for both rotation and mechanics became imperative. Every boss attack one-shots you if you do not handle it perfectly, over and over and over again. Being able to recover from a mistake became a thing of the past. You could fight a boss for 10 minutes, have one person make a split-second mistake and, boom, wipe.

Guildmates grew tired of bashing their heads against the wall and left. It was a huge disappointment. These were friends I had for years. But there was simply nothing left for us to do together in ESO. Casual and normal content was boring. Veteran DLC content was ridiculous. There was simply no middle ground any longer where good, but not great players, could be challenged and have fun.

VaranisArano

I think there's some interesting points being made here worth delving into.

1. High DPS as QOL in trials and dungeons.

As overall DPS has increased due to power creep, ZOS has designed dungeons and trials that require higher DPS.

Moreover, guilds and even PUGs have begun to expect higher DPS, even higher than is required to complete the content. This is for quality of life reasons. Not only can higher DPS skip some mechanics, it also lessens the time required for the group to perform mechanics perfectly.

Thus, ZOS designing mechanics for high DPS is driving players to seek higher DPS to cope with those very mechanics. Its a feedback loop.


2. Players should be able to (eventually) complete ALL the content they paid for.

Here's where I'm not so sure.

Should players in fact be able to eventually reach sufficient DPS to complete ALL content through power creep?

Where does player skill play a part? Or are we assuming that we would have a combat overhaul that makes combat more reliant on player skill as opposed to internet connection/keyboard? Is a balance there even possible?

Girl_Number8

Mr_Walker wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has.

That's good. Those "casuals" are the folk who make up the bulk of the game. They are the folk buying crown store items, and the ESO+ subs so they can dye their cosmetics, not the 1% who gripe and moan the game's too easy for their leet skills.

They are the ones keeping the lights on.

Bear that in mind next time you think about casuals in any sort of derogatory fashion.

Not really. I find that the players that have been here since the beginning have supported the game from the subscription model to eso+. Creating the best guilds and spending large amounts on houses and everything else offered in the game. As where the casuals get the game on sale and play for a few months here and there but most will jump into bgs with no care for anything else in the game. It is staggering when you see how many people have barely accomplished any achievements at all, not even the easy ones.

New players get more free things now then ever before in the game and then still rage on the forums because they died to a player that has been playing for years instead of months. Zos's race change token scam is what they think of their long term player base which is pretty much nothing.

And their server is what they think of the rest of the community.

Sylvermynx

@Girl_Number8 - that might be true. But I've spent so much money on this game in the last 8 months.... husband had forgotten the years when I ran 7 WoW accounts! But it's my money I'm spending....

So I have two accounts paid 6 months at a time. And then I buy more crowns for each at least once a month - not the biggest pack, but certainly an extra hundred a month for both (US dollars I should say).

As a casual - one who can't even really play the content for the most part - I figure I AM paying my way. Now, if I was working, or still running a business, I could pay even more - but hey, I decided to mostly retire.... and I don't ask husband to fund my gaming.

Shantu

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

30k was already enough at one point. Now, we have 40k-50k.

Is not that much power for you?

This is accurate:

SoLooney wrote: »

I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

I agree with the OP. However, these arguments will never be accepted by "high tiered" players because their perception is skewed by their own experience. Since they can achieve 40-50k, the assumption is with enough practice, anybody can. Since they can do it, it's inconceivable that anyone can't. This is narrow minded and simply not true.

I'm an officer and a raid leader in a guild that is full of mid to low tiered players. We don't judge people by their dps capability. We try to teach both trial mechanics and simple methods to improve dps. We try to emphasize the joy of participation. 90% of these players will never hit 30k on a dummy, let alone a raid or dungeon setting. Many of them have had bad experiences with elitists and have to be persuaded to join our runs. Invariably they are very grateful once they take the plunge. We successfully complete every normal trial we run. Sometimes, in a raid like nHoF it takes us 3 hours, but we get it done. Will we progress to vet trials? No...and this is the point the OP is trying to make. For the player that's reached their peak at mid tier, there is no gradient for further progression. They achieve a level of success and the next step is impossible. No matter how many times you berate them to "git gud", it won't happen. The reasons are varied, but real.

I think the CP power creep should be left alone to assist mid tiered players. If they have played to a CP of 1200, their increase in power should reflect it. If this means high tiered players are now parsing 100k and find vet content too easy, then let ZOS design more content to challenge them. In addition, content that rests somewhere between possible and impossible would be very useful, helpful, and enjoyable to the vast majority of players. Who knows, that middle step may be the one they need to progress even further.

The OP makes some very good points that are worth considering, but you must view them from the perspective of mid tier players. There is a lot of potential avenues for more enjoyment for average players in this game. But locking those avenues behind content that impossible for the vast majority players is not one of them.

Girl_Number8

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Girl_Number8 - that might be true. But I've spent so much money on this game in the last 8 months.... husband had forgotten the years when I ran 7 WoW accounts! But it's my money I'm spending....

So I have two accounts paid 6 months at a time. And then I buy more crowns for each at least once a month - not the biggest pack, but certainly an extra hundred a month for both (US dollars I should say).

As a casual - one who can't even really play the content for the most part - I figure I AM paying my way. Now, if I was working, or still running a business, I could pay even more - but hey, I decided to mostly retire.... and I don't ask husband to fund my gaming.

You sound like you are a gamer that has played games longer then I have been alive, that is great. Though my point is a lot of us that started with this game have supported it since the beginning, most are multiplatform, and even NA and EU players on top of that. We have spent more in this game over the years naturally because it was and is our main game.

I never played WoW so Idk how they treated you as a customer after being loyal for years to their product. Though Zos has shown us time after time again we mean very little. This race change token cash grab to heat one of their pools for another year will put an unnecessary financial burden on endgame players. That have been paying all along and are now going to be paying the price for Zos's incompetence or intended competence to get even more from us in an unfair way.

coop500

I can't really add anything to this convo besides.... SO MUCH YES. I have been playing this game for over two years, i have over 2500 hours on it, I know not as much as some, but certainly not a noob. However a lot of times I refuse to play DPS because I just can never make the numbers people demand. So I stick with being healer or tank, which has allowed me to clear higher content than I normally would be able to, but there are also times where despite my best efforts and reflexes, it's just not enough. I have lost any sense of progression since around Morrowind, since then it feels like I've just been going backwards or evening out if I swap some skills around. But evening out isn't fun either.

Sylvermynx

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Girl_Number8 - that might be true. But I've spent so much money on this game in the last 8 months.... husband had forgotten the years when I ran 7 WoW accounts! But it's my money I'm spending....

So I have two accounts paid 6 months at a time. And then I buy more crowns for each at least once a month - not the biggest pack, but certainly an extra hundred a month for both (US dollars I should say).

As a casual - one who can't even really play the content for the most part - I figure I AM paying my way. Now, if I was working, or still running a business, I could pay even more - but hey, I decided to mostly retire.... and I don't ask husband to fund my gaming.

You sound like you are a gamer that has played games longer then I have been alive, that is great. Though my point is a lot of us that started with this game have supported it since the beginning, most are multiplatform, and even NA and EU players on top of that. We have spent more in this game over the years naturally because it was and is our main game.

I never played WoW so Idk how they treated you as a customer after being loyal for years to their product. Though Zos has shown us time after time again we mean very little. This race change token cash grab to heat one of their pools for another year will put an unnecessary financial burden on endgame players. That have been paying all along and are now going to be paying the price for Zos's incompetence or intended competence to get even more from us in an unfair way.

Eh, WoW wasn't any better really. I quit playing when they pushed Warlords of Draenor as the next "greatest" thing, and I could see it wasn't going to be fun (for me - some liked it I'm sure) so I quit, canceled 7 accounts, and haven't ever been back. Thing I enjoyed about WoW was getting a player to max level (95 I think when I left) and being able to run older content for transmog gear, and hauling a few other account toons along so they could get the good gear to help them along. Never did get that really cool flying mount - though that's the major reason I left: no flying in new content.

RIFT went the same sort of direction - not going to be fun for me, so I left. Canceled only 5 accounts that time. Haven't been back - and it seems that the whole game is now.... trashed by some gimped company so maybe I can't even just go back F2P and mess with housing....

I started playing CRPGs in 1985 btw..... SSI Gold Box Games set in Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms. I LIVED those games, and loved them. Still do, though running them through DosBox is.... not optimal on today's machines.

Y'know, I kind of want to build an "old time" box - one that approximates my first machine (XEROX dos machine, 286 maybe; upgraded it to win 3.0 - buggier than ANY anthill btw! - and then added a real hdd....) Not sure that's possible today. But if it was, I could actually play all those old games again.

Siohwenoeht

Apologies in advance for the length of this post:

I've become a player that understands multiple viewpoints.

Despite what you may see from my forum profile, I've been playing ESO since May, 2014. First on PC, then console at console launch, I'm a late comer to the forums.

I strive to be able to complete veteran content and fully realize to do that I need to be a better player.

Now being a better player (as a player that pve's and pvp's) can mean several different things. For pve, it is setting my rotation and being able to repeat it with consistency. For PVP it's being able to react in the moment and be able to have the correct skill ready to counter what my opponent is throwing at me.

With that in mind, I know that I have little chance to be on vMA leaderboards, but I can complete any normal dungeon and a few vet dungeons solo.

I can roll into cyrodiil and stack up tons of "you kill me at the same time I kill you" (don't remember the name of the achievement).

I enjoy the learning curve and the adjustments to my build and figuring out all the bits and pieces that you need to be really successful.

Yet I have to deal with folks that want to kick me from GF runs due to my builds. I never run meta. I enjoy finding builds with sets that very few use and proving they are viable. I'm running a Stamsorc with gryphons ferocity as one set and I solo content that some can't with a four person group.

There will always be top tier players in any mmo, and they have every right to want content that challenges them. The problem, as I see it, with ESO is that there are far more players trying to emulate that top tier and therefore excluding the mid and lower tier just because of sets or dps on a dummy which, by the way, does not represent what you'll actually do in a dungeon or trial.

The top players are not the problem.

The lowest players are not the problem.

The middle who think they are the top are the problem.

Asha_11_ESO

I'm not convinced that these problems of the 'middle tier' players can be attributed to power creep. I think it's more to do with middle tier players not adjusting themselves.

I'm gonna assume that there's limited veteran trial teams and limited vet trial spots, and hence the dps bar also gets pushed higher, because of competition for those spots.

Why are middle tier players complaining about not being able to compete for those spots? Why aren't middle tier players coming together to form their own trial teams to suit their own needs. Just because the top tier teams require XXk dps, does not mean mid tier teams can't form and try harder content.

It's madness to complain about having to adjust and change, as the game changes around you.

VaranisArano

Asha_11_ESO wrote: »

I'm not convinced that these problems of the 'middle tier' players can be attributed to power creep. I think it's more to do with middle tier players not adjusting themselves.

I'm gonna assume that there's limited veteran trial teams and limited vet trial spots, and hence the dps bar also gets pushed higher, because of competition for those spots.

Why are middle tier players complaining about not being able to compete for those spots? Why aren't middle tier players coming together to form their own trial teams to suit their own needs. Just because the top tier teams require XXk dps, does not mean mid tier teams can't form and try harder content.

It's madness to complain about having to adjust and change, as the game changes around you.

Bolded the part I want to speak to.

I think part of the contention here is that as ZOS creates more content aimed at pleasing the elite tier players, middle tier guilds are struggling. Specifically, that stacked mechanics and perfection-required boss fights where a single mistake can wipe the whole group are increasingly not fun for middle tier guilds and the players who want to try those very progression runs you suggest they do.

Now, I'll admit that I don't have the data to say whether or not that's what's actually happening with the majority of middle tier players/guilds or not, but there's been a few people here saying that's certainly the case in their experience with their guilds.

Ysbriel

This actually an interesting and potential point of view, i’ve been in Veteran DLC dungeons that everybody knew what they were supposed to do and we kept failing when in the last 12% of the boss and i thought to myself, why keep raising the damage required to defeat the new content instead of adding more complex and interactive mechanics than just having someone yell “burn” in the dungeon, i mean i know that exists already but it should be more of that, as a 810cp Tank i can hold enough till i get overwhelmed if the DDs don’t have a crazy high dps and some dungeon bosses like that Minotaur in Bloodroot forge on vet if i die every will most likely die without a chance to resurrect me.

lokulin

I'm one of those middle tier players. I have completed all the non-dlc hard modes and no deaths. I have completed the older DLCs up to Horns of the Reach hard modes and no deaths (except no death on Bloodroot). I have done vet trials up to Halls of Fabrication but only have hard mode on vAA and vSO. The two guilds that I was in most recently that ran trials have died in the last few months. Most of my friends that were at about my skill level have left the game. I have over 3K hours on my main and 30K achievement points and am running out of "easy" things to do and really enjoy trying to get hard mode and no death achievements from places like Moon Hunter Keep.

The thing is, even after a lot of practice I can really only really sustain 30-35K dps maximum. I have no idea how people do 70K dps. Normal mode on most of these dungeons is too easy for me. Vet mode is good on most of them although the one shot mechanics on the newer dungeons have ruined no death runs so many times I have lost count. Hard modes, well they just aren't really fun most of the time. The last one that was fun was Falkreath Hold. Personally I'd like to continue to see older DLC dungeons slowly decreased in difficulty over time as new content is released. Whether that is through power creep or nerfs I don't care. It gives people who have completed a lot of the content something to look forward to and a reason to continue to try doing the hard modes and no deaths.

Jameliel

Some good points raised by op. The biggest issue I see is they nerf everything far too often and too much. Most players just want to have FUN. The so called elite get bored with everything no matter what, and if they are going to leave, will leave anyways. Nerfing simply sucks the fun out from every aspect of the game. Sustain is a glaring example of this in ESO. As many have pointed out, heavy attacks being used for sustain support is nonsensical.

A lot of the so-called balance changes often seem to support increased crown store sales more than actually balancing the game and increasing enjoyment. Most of the systems used in ESO are already so convoluted and confusing, that it takes months to learn and become accustomed to and proficient with them. ZOS needs to tone down the marketing and constant money-grab schemes for awhile. Much greater effort and intent needs to be focused on actually making the game fun for everyone. The focus on whales and the so called "elite" needs to stop.

Emma_Overload

Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.

Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.

I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.

IwakuraLain42

A very good writeup of the current situation, esp. regarding any kind of newer veteran content.

The one point I would like to highlight that absolute missing of any margin of error on any kind of newer veteran content. Either you spot the mechanic immediately and react to it or you are dead as these mechanics don't forgive any error, usually leading to a wipe of the group. Add in the fact that playing with a controller is way slower then with a mouse (something not factored in by the dungeon team) and factor in the crappy targeting system and you get very, very painful content which is as unfun as they get.

You can see (sometimes) attempts from ZOS to modify/nerf those dungeons but those things are hidden deep within the patch notes, which most people don't read (if they actually know that they exist). And sometimes they make the encounters even worse then before (the changes to Planar Inhibitor for example).

For most people that I know these dungeons are simply lost content, not worth the time/effort on Normal and impossible on Veteran. And please spare us the story about the famous mid-level guilds that run these. Those guilds all have disappeared in the last 2 years (at least on PS4/EU) and the ones that are forming will break up when they reach vMoL.

Will this ever change ? Unlikely, as long as the major income comes from the aggressive cash shop and loot boxes allow the developers to follow their private whims on content for the minority (like PvP or said end-game content)

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Apologies in advance for the length of this post:

I've become a player that understands multiple viewpoints.

Despite what you may see from my forum profile, I've been playing ESO since May, 2014. First on PC, then console at console launch, I'm a late comer to the forums.

I strive to be able to complete veteran content and fully realize to do that I need to be a better player.

Now being a better player (as a player that pve's and pvp's) can mean several different things. For pve, it is setting my rotation and being able to repeat it with consistency. For PVP it's being able to react in the moment and be able to have the correct skill ready to counter what my opponent is throwing at me.

With that in mind, I know that I have little chance to be on vMA leaderboards, but I can complete any normal dungeon and a few vet dungeons solo.

I can roll into cyrodiil and stack up tons of "you kill me at the same time I kill you" (don't remember the name of the achievement).

I enjoy the learning curve and the adjustments to my build and figuring out all the bits and pieces that you need to be really successful.

Yet I have to deal with folks that want to kick me from GF runs due to my builds. I never run meta. I enjoy finding builds with sets that very few use and proving they are viable. I'm running a Stamsorc with gryphons ferocity as one set and I solo content that some can't with a four person group.

There will always be top tier players in any mmo, and they have every right to want content that challenges them. The problem, as I see it, with ESO is that there are far more players trying to emulate that top tier and therefore excluding the mid and lower tier just because of sets or dps on a dummy which, by the way, does not represent what you'll actually do in a dungeon or trial.

The top players are not the problem.

The lowest players are not the problem.

The middle who think they are the top are the problem.

Are we freaking twins, man?? Same to everything up there ^

Ever seen a Mage using Embershield and Overwhelming Surge beat veteran Maelstrom Arena? This guy has haha I love that you create your own build and do awesome stuff with it! Good on you!

KhajiitFelix

SoLooney wrote: »

Power creep is already significant

There were times were 30k dps was top tier, then short after 40k was the new standard. Then surely enough it was 50k and slowly creeping towards 55k plus

Not to mention support sets increasing this even more significantly where good dps are parsing 70k plus and stamina nightblades well over 80k

Pve dps is already pretty insane and the gear to get that dps is very easy to farm or straight up buy from traders or other players

It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has. Heck, look at that new dungeon skin that you can get if you just clear it on vet. Not very special if a lot of people can now obtain it

New trials come out once maybe twice a year, and that's really all the hardcore players get out of new content. Maybe the dlc dungeons too.

With the current max cp of 810. You can spec a lot of points into recovery, damage, and mitigation. Making clearing older content a lot easier

Also. Most of the vet trial content are years old, theres tons of guides on the internet and on YouTube. If people cant clear the older vet trials, then that group needs to work on dps, mechanics, communication and teamwork. Cause hitting that 40k plus dps is not that hard at all, theres tons of videos and guides on rotations to hit those numbers

I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

Lol most players can't get past 15k. If you can do it, it doesn't mean everyone can do it.

SoLooney

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

Power creep is already significant

There were times were 30k dps was top tier, then short after 40k was the new standard. Then surely enough it was 50k and slowly creeping towards 55k plus

Not to mention support sets increasing this even more significantly where good dps are parsing 70k plus and stamina nightblades well over 80k

Pve dps is already pretty insane and the gear to get that dps is very easy to farm or straight up buy from traders or other players

It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has. Heck, look at that new dungeon skin that you can get if you just clear it on vet. Not very special if a lot of people can now obtain it

New trials come out once maybe twice a year, and that's really all the hardcore players get out of new content. Maybe the dlc dungeons too.

With the current max cp of 810. You can spec a lot of points into recovery, damage, and mitigation. Making clearing older content a lot easier

Also. Most of the vet trial content are years old, theres tons of guides on the internet and on YouTube. If people cant clear the older vet trials, then that group needs to work on dps, mechanics, communication and teamwork. Cause hitting that 40k plus dps is not that hard at all, theres tons of videos and guides on rotations to hit those numbers

I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

Lol most players can't get past 15k. If you can do it, it doesn't mean everyone can do it.

People are pulling 30k plus dps just by dropping dots and heavy attacking, repeat

Theres tons of videos and guides to get basic rotation down.

Where is your source that most cant get 15k?

Players who cant get more than 15k usually dont care, dont want to, or are straight up ignorant and can be lazy

Wifeaggro13

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Part7:

ZOS has always stated that they have all this Data about how many people are completing dungeons, what their DPS is, how often are they running, etc. etc. They need to be looking at this data and referring to it. How many players are running VHof or VCR +2-+3? How many are on the leader boards for these? Are those characters currently on the leader boards, owned by the same players? If so, how many? How many players are completing this content, and then NEVER STEPPING IN IT AGAIN??

They need to take the time and speak with a couple of these Middle Tiered Progressive Raid groups and their leaders to hear first-hand, what their pain points are, and why they are not having fun, or running the new content again after they complete it.

What can be done to help balance the game and to alleviate some of these pain points?

- Power Creep needs to continue in this game, but it does need to be Capped (say, 45-50k).
It’s time for ZOS to put a roof over the Highest Ceiling. All players should be able to eventually complete all content they paid for. Even if it takes them 7yrs of eventual power creep through any system; they’ll eventually get there.
In PvP, this could mean setting the max DPS at a certain level as well, or having all NO CP campaigns.
But, if I’m not going to progress in power for the foreseeable future, why should I bother buying the new DLC, or the New Chapter?? The story isn’t enough. I can watch someone else play and get the story without paying.

- With Capped DPS, then a pure horizontal progression begins, where CP can be spent on quality of life items rather on points that provide more power. Ie: Increased bank space. A fourth CP tree can be created for this, or allowing players to put points into the trees, say into resistances for Trials so they don’t have to keep changing them all the time.

- Third tier of difficulty between Normal and Vet Dungeons and Trials needs to be created. Raising the difficulty of Normal is not acceptable, as you will again be locking a vast majority of your casual players out of that content. An intuitive middle tier of difficulty that allows your players to learn the mechanics without being overwhelmed in required.

- Mechanics that allow for room of error. Players shouldn’t have to be on point 100% of the time, or wipe the run. Those type of mechanics are not Fun and players are less likely to repeatedly run content that had mechanics like this.

I would like to build more on this conversation. Posting trolling comments like git gud, or L2P is not providing constructive feedback or discussion, but are considered trolling. I would like to hear others thoughts on this, from those who both agree or disagree.

Tam one is responsible for this. It was really a response to two issues phasing which was huge. And stale blocked of content.I think level scalling could have been better thought out. Wanting to make the game more like the tradtional single player franchise was the goal. Allowing people to play with friends no matter the level all good ideas . but there are other way of doing that. Tam one has done no favors for the body of the community that is now entering or wants to enter end game group activities. because you actually have learned none of the games finer points of combat, nor the roles how the function or how to play in a group setting.