Maintenance for the week of March 25:
•[COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 25, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EDT (12:00 UTC)
• Xbox One: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 27, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®4: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – March 27, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)

Progression Atrophy & the NEED for Power Creep in ESO + Other Pain Points for Middle Tiered players

  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
    ✭✭✭✭
    Juhasow wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.

    It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.

    VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?

    Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.

    Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."

    If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.

    Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.

    I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.

    You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?

    Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).

    It is lose situation for other 99,9%.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 13, 2019 9:51AM
  • TheInfernalRage
    TheInfernalRage
    ✭✭✭✭
    Juhasow wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.

    It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.

    VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?

    Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.

    Right now I think VMA is easier. I have not finished it yet since I got excited having a full set of Winterborn. I had fun in VMA. Me not finishing it has something to do with my resolve and capability, and not on anything else. I know it can be done, I'm just lazy in the "becoming better" part of it. It's not power atrophy. It's player atrophy.
  • Agalloch
    Agalloch
    ✭✭✭✭
    OP , very interesting post and agree with many aspects of it.

    Anyway, this is a MMO and we need VERTICAL and Horizontal progression.

    The problem is the last trials and vet dungeons are full of mechanics ( an inflation of them), full of one shot mechanics ( even on normal)

    Over 90% of the player base ..maybe 95% don't do DLC dungeons on vet or Vet trials because of stupid mechanics . Also there is not a real incentive to redo them since the gear drops become BOP.

    Many of them can't do over 20k dps because don't know how to animation cancel..

    Overland is too easy ..

    Many problems are introduced since One Tamriel.

    The devs must understand ESO is a MMO who must played for fun ..not to stay weeks trying to progress in a vet trial or dungeon.

    There are so many things to say...

    English is not my native language.
  • TheInfernalRage
    TheInfernalRage
    ✭✭✭✭
    Agalloch wrote: »
    Many of them can't do over 20k dps because don't know how to animation cancel..

    There it is again. One of the problems.

  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭

    MikaHR wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.

    It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.

    VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?

    Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.

    Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."

    I actually did that. it's easier today then in 2015

  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MikaHR wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I do not understand how some (very few) think ESO has power atrophy instead of power creep.

    It has been very obvious the game has had power creep as challenging or even somewhat challenging instances are so much easier today than a year or two ago. vMA is a great example as their scores have increased over time, not decreased as would occur with power atrophy.

    VMA is actually an example of power atrophy. Thanks to the massive nerf to damage shields, VMA is harder than ever for some Magicka classes. Doesn't matter how much DPS has creeped up, the content is harder overall because of reduced defensive capabilities. Sustain has also been nerfed severely since VMA launched. Where is the creep?

    Which classes excatly ? Name 1 class that have harder time to complete vMA right now then in 2015 when it was released.

    Use the same gear/CP as you did in 2015. and tell us is if it harder/easier today than "back in 2015."

    If you dont have the gear/CP it is harder...because of nerfs...that happend BECASUE of insane gear/CP power creep. Gear power creep that regular player (99,9% of playerbase) who might attempt vMA for the first time is not riding as only miniscule number of players are interested in raiding.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Power creep is a myth. What you guys are talking about is DPS creep. I remember when Vet COA2 was the hardest dungeon in the game. It took me several attempts with various pugs to finally complete it, but it WAS puggable. It was hard, but nothing about it was so complicated that you couldn't explain it in one sentence in chat.

    Now we have these ridiculously complicated DLC dungeons. They are effectively unpuggable and impractical to explain without voice comms. My DPS may be hundred times higher than the pre-DLC era, but it doesn't matter because the difficulty of the top content has far outstripped DPS.

    I don't think it should be required to watch hours of Alcast videos to complete content. I liked the difficulty of the old ESO, and I suspect many, many players would agree with me.

    You do realize that content difficulty skyrocketed because of power creep right?

    Bingo. Except vast majority of people aint riding the insane power creep (just look at stats of how many people finished newest DLC dungeons - 0,1%).

    It is lose situation for other 99,9%.

    Except the people defending that insane power creep like CP are ironically the people who complain about power creep creating these hard DLC dungeons that they cant finish. They are literally defending the things that indirectly create their issues in the first place.
  • squinceybones
    squinceybones
    ✭✭✭
    What's wrong with doing content on normal? If you don't want to put the effort and hone your skills to do what's necessary, that's what normal content is for. If you want to put the work in, here's your vet content for more of a challenge. A lot of the player's completing the "endgame veteran content" have the same restrictions and limitations as anyone else, dare I say in some cases more. They simply put the effort in and got the results. Personally I took a break from the game for a year and came back to find a decent dps increase, in the exact same gear I was wearing when I stopped. That to me, is a power creep. I did nothing, if anything got worse and received more bang for my buck.
  • Grianasteri
    Grianasteri
    ✭✭✭
    SoLooney wrote: »
    It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

    I'm tentatively thinking it is probably a long time since you were a noob, or the kind of mid tier average player that the vast majority of ESO players are...

    Because hitting 40k DPS... IS NOT EASY. Or else everyone would be doing it. They arnt, the average DPS of an average player will be anything from 10k to 20k.

    I am also tentatively going to go out on a limb and assume you did not read the very well explained reasons why many people simply cannot achieve the higher DPS that comes from animation cancelling etc.

    Edited by Grianasteri on February 13, 2019 11:36AM
  • Reistr_the_Unbroken
    Reistr_the_Unbroken
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    To all the people saying “Overland is too easy”

    Yeah, to you it is, or might be. But to me it’s difficult.
    Edited by Reistr_the_Unbroken on February 13, 2019 11:41AM
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SoLooney wrote: »
    It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

    I'm tentatively thinking it is probably a long time since you were a noob, or the kind of mid tier average player that the vast majority of ESO players are...

    Because hitting 40k DPS... IS NOT EASY. Or else everyone would be doing it. They arnt, the average DPS of an average player will be anything from 10k to 20k.

    I am also tentatively going to go out on a limb and assume you did not read the very well explained reasons why many people simply cannot achieve the higher DPS that comes from animation cancelling etc.
    mairwen85 wrote: »

    Animation cancelling won't increase your dps magically.; it only helps a player tighten up their rotation.

    What @Agalloch actually means is that many players can't exceed 20K because they don't understand what attack weaving is. Second to that they assume the cast animation to work as the timer for GCD. The latter point is flawed as most animations overrun it.

    For all those against bar swapping or block tapping to exit cast animations that overrun the GCD, take your complaint to ZoS and demand they ensure all cast animations last exactly 0.9s -- that way animation cancelling becomes a moot point in this kind of conversation.

    AC will shave .1-.3s off your skill blocks in a rotation. Think of the diagram below as your rotation where the pipe (|) represents the boundaries of the GCD.

    | {SKILL | } { SKILL | } {SKILL | }

    Most skill animations overrun those boundaries by a small amount, we're talking fractions of seconds here. AC might shave up to 1s per 10s per rotation, in other words 1 more skill fired per block of 10. Either way, it's not going to make your dps jump from 10K to 50K. It'll more likely add a negligible amount of 1K, remarkably raising 10K to 11K dps.

    | { SKILL } | { SKILL } | { SKILL }

    AC is not what makes people dps machines. Light attack weaving with continuous rotation and decent gear is. That's a different subject (see linked post). Most players only AC (via bar swap) on especially long running anims as there's no point on the shorter ones, because, ironically, people who over-AC actually harm their dps as they rhythmically prepare themselves for the next skill too early, stopping it from firing at all(!)
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 13, 2019 12:00PM
  • amir412
    amir412
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The thing is bad players will be bad players with or without the cp system,
    Good players exists in any game, and yes, they should be rewarded for pushing their gameplay to the limit.
    If im casual, and i dont care being a good player, then why should i care about any aspect related to power creep? I will remain a casual no matter how much nerf elites gets.
    - PVP prespective.
    Edited by amir412 on February 13, 2019 11:58AM
    PC | EU | AD |Veteran Stam Dk named "-Saidden"| 1020 CP|
    "..A world without fire. Ashen one, is this truly thy wish?.."


  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    To all the people saying “Overland is too easy”

    Yeah, to you it is, or might be. But to me it’s difficult.

    So what's the conclusion here ?
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
    ✭✭✭✭
    Put on plain white gear with 0 CP and go soloing wordbosses and show us your result.

    So we can judge how "leet" you are.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 13, 2019 1:06PM
  • PS4_ZeColmeia
    PS4_ZeColmeia
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    tl;drWith the addition of jewelry crafting and transmute stones, there is officially 0 reason you HAVE to run a vet mode because you can use other methods to upgrade your sets to gold/best traits you want without running the hard content. IMHO, this is the alternate method of getting your gear to the same level as someone that can get it from Vet mode outside of it's punishing mechanics is fair and therefore changing the approach ZOS has done is unneeded.

    If they wanted to accommodate your thoughts, with lots of development time, then I think they could do it by doing what I write below


    @Nebthet78 First off, you made a well thought out post and I think you have a lot of great points. Bravo.

    My only point of disagreement is in capping DPS vs making it harder to increase. This is why I actually think CP should be pushed to 1300 cap. Let me explain.

    I agree with your point in power creep. You need a sense of progression and people need a way of increasing their DPS for those that can't squeeze out more DPS through animation canceling. I don't think that should be done through sets. Sets should have a relative balance on its affect to DPS but cater to different mechanics to fit more playstyles, race, class combinations.

    The beauty of the CP system is it's front loaded. Those that can animation cancel get the BIGGEST boost up front because they can exploit the high boosts whereas a low or mid tier player cannot as efficiently. However as the CP continues on the bonuses become less dramatic and therefore the progression slows down. While a high end player may opt to continue down the path of going for a .5% increase in damage, many optimize around where they get more utility (say reducing block cost) because it will have a bigger affect on their performance.

    This is where I believe the opportunity for the mid players to increase their DPS comes into play. Those inefficient CP allocations are your 1% increases. This can also be supplemented with newer sets whose mechanics better fit your way of playing but benefit elite players less (ie sets that have a cool down vs sets that have less of a boost but is always up and benefits animation canceling).

    The point being that if ZOS focuses on these cooldown sets and you spend in these inefficient areas of CP to augment your lack of skill or connection related issues the GAP actually would narrow.


    Now my thought process discounts those elite players that also want to get every last ounce of damage out of their CP and so would still invest in those inefficient areas instead of rounding out their performance, or they are just so good they can round out their character and have the top DPS. This is where I think they need to have the scroll system like dungeons have in Vet mode. This would increase the damage (slightly), increase the mob health (decently) and make certain mechanics happen more often. I am sure these players would enjoy being able to focus on specific aspects of a trial (speed run, no death run, etc.) and have a mode more dedicated to farming Hardcore Vet mode.

    The increased reward, or awarding perfected uncracked geodes (guaranteed, high number of transmute stones), or the ability to sell certain bound sets out of the trial would actually be a great way of rewarding those that can do the Vet HM trial, but to your point not make Vet be so intentionally hard that they can't try it.

    Edited by PS4_ZeColmeia on February 13, 2019 1:27PM
    PSN: Blackie___Chan (3 _s)
    Hybrid, All-Role NB
  • AlboMalefica
    AlboMalefica
    ✭✭✭✭
    I mean this is obviously a sensitive subject to some people, I know how easy it is to get or be “dps shamed” if you’re not hitting the “expected” dps level. But to say there’s not a power creep overall in the game and rather a power atrophy is unfortunately incorrect, even ZoS has admitted this with the halting of increasing the cp cap (this is more complicated than just power creep but it was part of the reason). The casual player are just that, casual. I do agree that they shouldn’t be held back because the content is too hard but a lot of the new dungeons are mechanically challenging, they’re designed for organised groups to complete. Yes some of the top tier people can out dps some mechanics but that shouldn’t prevent anyone from completing them.
    I doubt anyone who can hit 40k dps are being truthful in saying it’s easy, it takes work, study and practice to improve your dps. Most dungeons can be completed with a 20k dps tbh, it’s the mechanics people need to focus on.
    I totally respect the OPs opinion however, maybe they should introduce a third difficulty level “legendary” or something, so people have a challenge that meets their skill level rather than making everything to difficult or too easy
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean this is obviously a sensitive subject to some people, I know how easy it is to get or be “dps shamed” if you’re not hitting the “expected” dps level. But to say there’s not a power creep overall in the game and rather a power atrophy is unfortunately incorrect, even ZoS has admitted this with the halting of increasing the cp cap (this is more complicated than just power creep but it was part of the reason). The casual player are just that, casual. I do agree that they shouldn’t be held back because the content is too hard but a lot of the new dungeons are mechanically challenging, they’re designed for organised groups to complete. Yes some of the top tier people can out dps some mechanics but that shouldn’t prevent anyone from completing them.
    I doubt anyone who can hit 40k dps are being truthful in saying it’s easy, it takes work, study and practice to improve your dps. Most dungeons can be completed with a 20k dps tbh, it’s the mechanics people need to focus on.
    I totally respect the OPs opinion however, maybe they should introduce a third difficulty level “legendary” or something, so people have a challenge that meets their skill level rather than making everything to difficult or too easy

    This... agreed.

    Current content can be completed by observing mechanics -- they are punishing and on veteran unforgiving, but they are there to slow down the big-hitters; this means observable by all players. Is it easier with bigger numbers, yes -- you can skip some phases, but it isn't necessary. 25-30K is sufficient.

    Future: There needs to be a half-way difficulty tier introduced to group content like trials and dungeons: Casual, Normal, Veteran.
  • nigeltheclydesdale
    Imagine complaining about 130 ping... F to pay respects to the Australians out there... Who can still hit 40k + DPS with 300ping. And whoever thinks that controllers yeild less DPS, I know PC score runners that use controllers :')
    PC EU - 1k+ CP

    PC NA - 400+ CP

    Ciri's Angel
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
    ✭✭✭✭
    Alcast has 60k subs and 5-10k views on videos, he is not really all that relevant in the bigger picture. And most of his audience already play ESO so its pretty much a wash really.

    In fact i see tremeduously more ESO coverage for things like Elswyr and Summerset from casual youtubers with 500k subs that are definitely immensly more influential and have pretty much 0 coverage of said content, mostly explaining the basics of ESO.

    Devs often fall in a trap of listening that extremely small minority as they spend a lot of time in game/forums/PTS and what not...but are pretty much complete opposite of vast majority of playerbase. And stats for dungeon DLCs show that there IS and issue.
  • squinceybones
    squinceybones
    ✭✭✭
    vMA and power creep/power atrophy is interesting.

    Because vMA, like all content in ESO, gets easier the more experience you have doing it. You need certain minimums - defense, self-heals, and DPS - but once you've done it, you can do it again, and since its all mechanics, effectively, it will only get easier the more experienced you are.

    So that's the power creep argument. vMA is easier than it used to be.

    Except...
    1. We have players completing it with laughable gear, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
    2. We have new players constantly struggling to complete vMA, again, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.

    At a certain level of experience, vMA is easy. Below that level, VMA is quite challenging, but not insurmountable so. Moreover, nerfs cannot take away player experience with mechanics. So while an experienced player may find that a given nerf made their vMA run somewhat harder but not insurmountable, a less experienced vMA player will find that it's much more difficult to adjust. (Example: damage shield nerfs)


    Now, how does that tie into DLC dungeons and trials?

    Its illustrative of the DPS gap - where some groups have enough DPS to complete harder content (high tier) and others, the middle tier, have barely enough or just enough to struggle through (middle tier).

    We can surmise that experience makes them easier. So for groups or player who are able to complete that content in the first place (high tier), repeated competions make that content easier despite the stacked mechanics and low margins for error. Any nerfs will lower this group's DPS, but will not impact the experience they have from completing the content so its much easier to adjust. Thus, this group experiences most of the benefits of power creep and fewer of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also makes it easier for those groups to push for yet harder content.)

    For players who struggle to complete that content in the first place (middle tier), stacked mechanics and low margins of error become a barrier preventing them from ever feeling like the content is becoming easier. Nerfs make it harder to perform, in a group already struggling, and they don't have the experience with completions to fall back on. Thus, this group experiences fewer of the benefits of power creep and more of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also locks these groups out of even harder content).

    So, we see that there is a DPS and experience gap between the high tier and middle tier that insulates the high tier from many of the measures that ZOS uses to nerf DPS while those same measures end up making it harder for middle tier players/guilds to complete the content to get the experience that would make repeated completions easier. Furthermore, we see that centering development of new content around high tier players experienced with completing harder content leaves behind the middle tier who was struggling to deal with those mechanics and low margins of error, when new content is more of the same only harder.

    Essentially ESO's content, ,and nowhere illustrates this better than vMA, is designed to get easier the more you experience it. There's a big problem if the middle tier is being locked out of or struggling to complete the newer, harder content because of stacked mechanics, low margins of error, and nerfs while development continues to cater to players who have repeated completions of that content.



    I'm not sure what the solution is.

    I'm not sure there's a combat system that can equalize internet speed and player skill, or allow power creep without turning high tier play boring.

    I do think ESO needs better progression for middle tier players if they are going to continue to push harder end-game content. The DLC dungeon packs continue to spike in difficulty, and large parts of the player base are not keeping pace or are falling behind. Its easy to say that's laziness or not applying themselves, but this game doesnt even teach how to do a proper end-game rotation or LA weave so I think that's a short-sighted answer. If ESO wants more of its players to enjoy harder end-game content at a higher tier of play, at some point the game has to actually support and teach players on their way to that level.

    Initially i think the DLC dungeons were that bridge, mazzatun, cradle of shadows were relevant at the time for me. I had friends that weren't into trials but were still good enough to get achievements in these, that being said I haven't even set foot in the newer ones and they definitely do seem a bit tougher. I feel like the information to get players to end game content is available, even though it's on 3rd party sites. Unfortunately i don't see zos teaching players though as they've demonstrated on their live streams that they aren't capable themselves. There was one dev that was somewhat in the end game scene but i'm not sure what happened to him.
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SoLooney wrote: »
    Power creep is already significant

    There were times were 30k dps was top tier, then short after 40k was the new standard. Then surely enough it was 50k and slowly creeping towards 55k plus

    Not to mention support sets increasing this even more significantly where good dps are parsing 70k plus and stamina nightblades well over 80k

    Pve dps is already pretty insane and the gear to get that dps is very easy to farm or straight up buy from traders or other players

    It really isn't hard to hit 40k which already clears a lot of vet content with relative ease

    Following the years of eso. It has catered a lot to casual players, it really has. Heck, look at that new dungeon skin that you can get if you just clear it on vet. Not very special if a lot of people can now obtain it

    New trials come out once maybe twice a year, and that's really all the hardcore players get out of new content. Maybe the dlc dungeons too.

    With the current max cp of 810. You can spec a lot of points into recovery, damage, and mitigation. Making clearing older content a lot easier

    Also. Most of the vet trial content are years old, theres tons of guides on the internet and on YouTube. If people cant clear the older vet trials, then that group needs to work on dps, mechanics, communication and teamwork. Cause hitting that 40k plus dps is not that hard at all, theres tons of videos and guides on rotations to hit those numbers

    I agree that there should be power creep as more updates happen, but overall, the mid tiered players can work on becoming better players and not relying on power creep to get by content.

    And for the those gamers with disabilities and other issues that prevent them from top tier parses on DPS why should they be locked out of content that challenges them

    Or the casual gamer with RL commitments unable to spend hours perfecting a rotation on a dummy as they would rather spend game time having fun

    Key point here is fun ... All players should be having fun and ZoS need to start ensuring the masses are catered to and unfortunately that's the middle tier player the OP has excellently identified

    We need the developers to find a way that looks at the group's composition and adjust its difficulty to keep it challenging for all players not just for the super elite players

    Everyone one wants to be challenged but currently it's only 40% who are

    20% low level players facing first time normal level content and 20% high end players facing increasingly over difficult content while the larger 60% are left in the middle looking for either new in game challenges of which we are seeing none or simply leaving the game and truth be told it's probably this middle 60% that are buying up the crown store goodies keeping the other 40% doing what they enjoy
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    vMA and power creep/power atrophy is interesting.

    Because vMA, like all content in ESO, gets easier the more experience you have doing it. You need certain minimums - defense, self-heals, and DPS - but once you've done it, you can do it again, and since its all mechanics, effectively, it will only get easier the more experienced you are.

    So that's the power creep argument. vMA is easier than it used to be.

    Except...
    1. We have players completing it with laughable gear, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.
    2. We have new players constantly struggling to complete vMA, again, suggesting that experience is what makes it easier, not just power creep.

    At a certain level of experience, vMA is easy. Below that level, VMA is quite challenging, but not insurmountable so. Moreover, nerfs cannot take away player experience with mechanics. So while an experienced player may find that a given nerf made their vMA run somewhat harder but not insurmountable, a less experienced vMA player will find that it's much more difficult to adjust. (Example: damage shield nerfs)


    Now, how does that tie into DLC dungeons and trials?

    Its illustrative of the DPS gap - where some groups have enough DPS to complete harder content (high tier) and others, the middle tier, have barely enough or just enough to struggle through (middle tier).

    We can surmise that experience makes them easier. So for groups or player who are able to complete that content in the first place (high tier), repeated competions make that content easier despite the stacked mechanics and low margins for error. Any nerfs will lower this group's DPS, but will not impact the experience they have from completing the content so its much easier to adjust. Thus, this group experiences most of the benefits of power creep and fewer of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also makes it easier for those groups to push for yet harder content.)

    For players who struggle to complete that content in the first place (middle tier), stacked mechanics and low margins of error become a barrier preventing them from ever feeling like the content is becoming easier. Nerfs make it harder to perform, in a group already struggling, and they don't have the experience with completions to fall back on. Thus, this group experiences fewer of the benefits of power creep and more of the downsides of power atrophy. (This also locks these groups out of even harder content).

    So, we see that there is a DPS and experience gap between the high tier and middle tier that insulates the high tier from many of the measures that ZOS uses to nerf DPS while those same measures end up making it harder for middle tier players/guilds to complete the content to get the experience that would make repeated completions easier. Furthermore, we see that centering development of new content around high tier players experienced with completing harder content leaves behind the middle tier who was struggling to deal with those mechanics and low margins of error, when new content is more of the same only harder.

    Essentially ESO's content, ,and nowhere illustrates this better than vMA, is designed to get easier the more you experience it. There's a big problem if the middle tier is being locked out of or struggling to complete the newer, harder content because of stacked mechanics, low margins of error, and nerfs while development continues to cater to players who have repeated completions of that content.



    I'm not sure what the solution is.

    I'm not sure there's a combat system that can equalize internet speed and player skill, or allow power creep without turning high tier play boring.

    I do think ESO needs better progression for middle tier players if they are going to continue to push harder end-game content. The DLC dungeon packs continue to spike in difficulty, and large parts of the player base are not keeping pace or are falling behind. Its easy to say that's laziness or not applying themselves, but this game doesnt even teach how to do a proper end-game rotation or LA weave so I think that's a short-sighted answer. If ESO wants more of its players to enjoy harder end-game content at a higher tier of play, at some point the game has to actually support and teach players on their way to that level.

    Initially i think the DLC dungeons were that bridge, mazzatun, cradle of shadows were relevant at the time for me. I had friends that weren't into trials but were still good enough to get achievements in these, that being said I haven't even set foot in the newer ones and they definitely do seem a bit tougher. I feel like the information to get players to end game content is available, even though it's on 3rd party sites. Unfortunately i don't see zos teaching players though as they've demonstrated on their live streams that they aren't capable themselves. There was one dev that was somewhat in the end game scene but i'm not sure what happened to him.

    I think the DLC dungeons are intended to be that bridge, certainly.

    This is where I really wish we had ZOS's data on completion rates.

    Because the truth is that if most players who do end-game content really are able to progress, eventually, to the new harder content and we aren't actually seeing a statistically significant drop off in completion rates from middle tier players, then the development of new content is working just fine! Sure, there will be anecdotes from players who are left behind, but if thats not statisically significant we can't expect ZOS to cater to the few.

    But on the other hand, if the stats support that drop off from middle tier players struggling to complete newer harder content, or beating it a couple times and never going back...then there's evidence that ESO has a problem with progression amongst middle tier players.

    In short, I don't have the stats to back up the anecdotes - ZOS has the stats either way. I wish I did because the number crunching would be pretty interesting.
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SugaComa wrote: »

    20% low level players facing first time normal level content and 20% high end players facing increasingly over difficult content while the larger 60% are left in the middle looking for either new in game challenges of which we are seeing none or simply leaving the game and truth be told it's probably this middle 60% that are buying up the crown store goodies keeping the other 40% doing what they enjoy

    @MikaHR will tell you that 80% of the revenue comes from 20% of custom (Pareto principle), or that 99.9% ignore anything other than overland and PvP (BS principle). Who knows who they really are or where in the skill/ability/content separation they sit --- the player base is so diverse and we don't have the cold stats for that level of business analytics.

    However, I don't think the whole thing is as dramatic as people are making out.Yes a gap between the ceiling and floor is present, and yes, it is growing -- CP does allow us to close that gap somewhat, but so does skill, familiarity, communication, and group play. However, if the current content is cleaving the player base into 3 distinct slices of bracketed ability, then content needs to be served in the same brackets.

    It's not power creep that created this situation, but lack of forward thinking to provide content on a ladder of difficulty instead of an ever escalating difficulty based on the highest obtainable cap at the time of release. That's where the gap has come from, lack of content to target it, lack of mid-tier play growth because of missing content; the resolution to that missing content is existing content, or older content. Having delivered at the Cap of that time, it will be retrospectively laddered.
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 13, 2019 3:48PM
  • squinceybones
    squinceybones
    ✭✭✭
    So, are you saying that across all trials and dungeons, normal, vet and vet HM there is not a scale that gradually increases in difficulty.

    If normal trials are too easy, do vet craglorns, if they're too easy do the HM's, then MoL, then HoF, then maybe asylum +1 or +2, the idea is there's a lot of content. Surely a player can find themselves somewhere in the range across the content, where unless they're at the very top or bottom they can step back up or down should the difficulty require it. You don't need crazy dps to do a lot of content, 30-35k was enough at my last count and even if you personally can't reach those numbers there's a good chance there might be someone else in your group that's punching a bit over who can even out the load.

    What is this demographic of player that isn't being challenged and where do they lie between in the content available?
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @squinceybones

    Sorry, was a meandering post that I've cleaned up now. Content is retro-actively laddered. This is not an issue, and makes perfect sense.

    Issue is people wanting the new content, the extended content at the level of release before they are ready for it -- and expecting it to accommodate for them.
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 13, 2019 3:51PM
Sign In or Register to comment.