yeah, I've been making that point over and over. I hope it sinks in.Also in another thread someone pointed out
“”we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.“”
They kept no part of the Wood Elf version of this passive. Another contradiction in their own message.
I’m hoping this was a typo and they’ll get around to fixing it and all this was a bad dream.
ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.
Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Who needs to sneak if you can run faster than the game can comprehend? You will mitigate most damage and NPC aggro by it simply not registering it with the game. For evidence see the speed / swift meta prior to Murkmire - which FYI was slower than the new Bosmers!
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Who needs to sneak if you can run faster than the game can comprehend? You will mitigate most damage and NPC aggro by it simply not registering it with the game. For evidence see the speed / swift meta prior to Murkmire - which FYI was slower than the new Bosmers!
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I disagree. A speed boost while sneaking is fairly on par with Stealth Detection reduction in terms of PvE. Both have merits for stealing as 1 allows for more safe stealing, while the other offers more stealing via time saved. Then, ina PvP setting a speed buff while sneaking allows for far more maneuverability than being harder to find, especially when you're only an AoE away from being pulled from stealth anyways. Not to mention, a Khajiit vs Bosmer in a sneaking match, Bosmer does have 3m Stealth detection so in that specific scenario, you're only looking at a 2m stealth reduction vs movement speed while stealthed, which is pretty fair, all things considered.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I disagree. A speed boost while sneaking is fairly on par with Stealth Detection reduction in terms of PvE. Both have merits for stealing as 1 allows for more safe stealing, while the other offers more stealing via time saved. Then, ina PvP setting a speed buff while sneaking allows for far more maneuverability than being harder to find, especially when you're only an AoE away from being pulled from stealth anyways. Not to mention, a Khajiit vs Bosmer in a sneaking match, Bosmer does have 3m Stealth detection so in that specific scenario, you're only looking at a 2m stealth reduction vs movement speed while stealthed, which is pretty fair, all things considered.
Does nothing for Vampire or Night's Silence Bosmer.
Stealth is the best stealth.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I disagree. A speed boost while sneaking is fairly on par with Stealth Detection reduction in terms of PvE. Both have merits for stealing as 1 allows for more safe stealing, while the other offers more stealing via time saved. Then, ina PvP setting a speed buff while sneaking allows for far more maneuverability than being harder to find, especially when you're only an AoE away from being pulled from stealth anyways. Not to mention, a Khajiit vs Bosmer in a sneaking match, Bosmer does have 3m Stealth detection so in that specific scenario, you're only looking at a 2m stealth reduction vs movement speed while stealthed, which is pretty fair, all things considered.
Does nothing for Vampire or Night's Silence Bosmer.
Stealth is the best stealth.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »Why not a speed buff while sneaking?
This way, Bosmer can be speedy little thieves vs Khajjit being undetectable thieves.
That would be interesting and fit the hunter thingie... except that Bosmers won't be sneaky at all if they get JUST the speed buff while sneaky. +3m and speed bonus vs +5m for khajiits, I'm ok with that. +speed without stealth bonus would be rather meaningless.
We're gonna get Bosmers who are as adept at stealth as Orcs and Nords. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I disagree. A speed boost while sneaking is fairly on par with Stealth Detection reduction in terms of PvE. Both have merits for stealing as 1 allows for more safe stealing, while the other offers more stealing via time saved. Then, ina PvP setting a speed buff while sneaking allows for far more maneuverability than being harder to find, especially when you're only an AoE away from being pulled from stealth anyways. Not to mention, a Khajiit vs Bosmer in a sneaking match, Bosmer does have 3m Stealth detection so in that specific scenario, you're only looking at a 2m stealth reduction vs movement speed while stealthed, which is pretty fair, all things considered.
Does nothing for Vampire or Night's Silence Bosmer.
Stealth is the best stealth.
max_only wrote:How does the ability to detect other stealthed units help with “safe stealing”?
I was talking in guild chat about this change tonight and a troubling idea came up.
So the new Wrathstone quest line will make people play the two new dungeons.
Do you think this stealth-to-detection change indicates a plan to "push" players into pvp?
I fully expected the speed boost would not survive in its initial form, so that's fine. I also don't have an issue with having more of the stealth bonus move to a non-racial passive somewhere, but the problem with that is then you have a giant orc or nord moving as stealthily as a teeny tiny bosmer. I mean, seriously, look at a tall bosmer compared to a short anything else, and its pretty significant. Even if it is just a fixed 1m bonus to hiding in the base passive, or adding a stealth component to Hunter's Eye, or whatever, there should be some boost to being hidden for bosmer to reflect their lore-based cultural and physical affinity to being unnoticed. Even if it's small, even if it's less than what the khajiit get, it should be something. I'd waive the proffered damage boost to keep a boost to stealth.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »[*] Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.
As predicted, the speed boost after roll dodge is getting the hammer.
They are adding back a damage boost and that was the part that made it unbalanced in the first place.
They aren’t listening even if they are nodding their head.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »From the 30 Jan class rep meeting notes thread, with my reply:I fully expected the speed boost would not survive in its initial form, so that's fine. I also don't have an issue with having more of the stealth bonus move to a non-racial passive somewhere, but the problem with that is then you have a giant orc or nord moving as stealthily as a teeny tiny bosmer. I mean, seriously, look at a tall bosmer compared to a short anything else, and its pretty significant. Even if it is just a fixed 1m bonus to hiding in the base passive, or adding a stealth component to Hunter's Eye, or whatever, there should be some boost to being hidden for bosmer to reflect their lore-based cultural and physical affinity to being unnoticed. Even if it's small, even if it's less than what the khajiit get, it should be something. I'd waive the proffered damage boost to keep a boost to stealth.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »[*] Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »From the 30 Jan class rep meeting notes thread, with my reply:I fully expected the speed boost would not survive in its initial form, so that's fine. I also don't have an issue with having more of the stealth bonus move to a non-racial passive somewhere, but the problem with that is then you have a giant orc or nord moving as stealthily as a teeny tiny bosmer. I mean, seriously, look at a tall bosmer compared to a short anything else, and its pretty significant. Even if it is just a fixed 1m bonus to hiding in the base passive, or adding a stealth component to Hunter's Eye, or whatever, there should be some boost to being hidden for bosmer to reflect their lore-based cultural and physical affinity to being unnoticed. Even if it's small, even if it's less than what the khajiit get, it should be something. I'd waive the proffered damage boost to keep a boost to stealth.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »[*] Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.
What the actual F? I mean seriously? It's like they "hear" our concerns and just go in a totally different direction. And I am with you, I would wave the actual damage boost just to keep the stealth.
Where are these notes located?
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »From the 30 Jan class rep meeting notes thread, with my reply:I fully expected the speed boost would not survive in its initial form, so that's fine. I also don't have an issue with having more of the stealth bonus move to a non-racial passive somewhere, but the problem with that is then you have a giant orc or nord moving as stealthily as a teeny tiny bosmer. I mean, seriously, look at a tall bosmer compared to a short anything else, and its pretty significant. Even if it is just a fixed 1m bonus to hiding in the base passive, or adding a stealth component to Hunter's Eye, or whatever, there should be some boost to being hidden for bosmer to reflect their lore-based cultural and physical affinity to being unnoticed. Even if it's small, even if it's less than what the khajiit get, it should be something. I'd waive the proffered damage boost to keep a boost to stealth.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »[*] Bosmer: ZOS has heard concerns about the stackable powerful movement speed. Bosmers will still get a speed boost off dodge, it just wont be as high. Bosmers will get some short damage bonus as compensation. Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.
What the actual F? I mean seriously? It's like they "hear" our concerns and just go in a totally different direction. And I am with you, I would wave the actual damage boost just to keep the stealth.
Where are these notes located?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997
Wood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457243/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-2#latestWood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
It's like pouring gas on a dumpster fire...
I noticed that too. There was near universal and vocal feedback that stealth detection was not useful enough to justify a passive. Nearly every post asked for the stealthy passive back. Yet they left it intouched and their acknowledgement of the problem pertains only to the dodge roll part of the passive. Are they not reading feedback? Do they not comprehend what people are saying? Do they just not care? Seems like they have this vision in mind for bosmer and they don’t care if it isn’t useful or wanted, they are gonna do it anyway.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457243/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-2#latestWood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
It's like pouring gas on a dumpster fire...
We keep talking that stealth detect is PvP only, and they think we are talking about the roll? How much clearer can we be?
Dalsinthus wrote: »I noticed that too. There was near universal and vocal feedback that stealth detection was not useful enough to justify a passive. Nearly every post asked for the stealthy passive back. Yet they left it intouched and their acknowledgement of the problem pertains only to the dodge roll part of the passive. Are they not reading feedback? Do they not comprehend what people are saying? Do they just not care? Seems like they have this vision in mind for bosmer and they don’t care if it isn’t useful or wanted, they are gonna do it anyway.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457243/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-2#latestWood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
It's like pouring gas on a dumpster fire...
We keep talking that stealth detect is PvP only, and they think we are talking about the roll? How much clearer can we be?
This whole situation (bosmer and altmer changes) really crushes my faith and trust in the dev team. With talented people like Gilliam and the class rep program advising I had trusted that bad changes like this - somewhat lore unfriendly, limited use in any game play mode, inferior to other racial options - wouldn’t be allowed to go forward but here we are. A bad passive actually got worse. If I were a class rep I would have fought this as hard as I respectfully could.
I am definitely rethinking whether or not the game is worth a continued major investment of time. I probably won’t stop playing entirely, but if this is the kind of game management we can expect going forward, I’m not sure I want to make this such a big aspect of my life.
Dalsinthus wrote: »I noticed that too. There was near universal and vocal feedback that stealth detection was not useful enough to justify a passive. Nearly every post asked for the stealthy passive back. Yet they left it intouched and their acknowledgement of the problem pertains only to the dodge roll part of the passive. Are they not reading feedback? Do they not comprehend what people are saying? Do they just not care? Seems like they have this vision in mind for bosmer and they don’t care if it isn’t useful or wanted, they are gonna do it anyway.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457243/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-2#latestWood Elf
Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.
It's like pouring gas on a dumpster fire...
We keep talking that stealth detect is PvP only, and they think we are talking about the roll? How much clearer can we be?
This whole situation (bosmer and altmer changes) really crushes my faith and trust in the dev team. With talented people like Gilliam and the class rep program advising I had trusted that bad changes like this - somewhat lore unfriendly, limited use in any game play mode, inferior to other racial options - wouldn’t be allowed to go forward but here we are. A bad passive actually got worse. If I were a class rep I would have fought this as hard as I respectfully could.
I am definitely rethinking whether or not the game is worth a continued major investment of time. I probably won’t stop playing entirely, but if this is the kind of game management we can expect going forward, I’m not sure I want to make this such a big aspect of my life.