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Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.

    Why take away the stealth bonus they had?

    This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.

    Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.

    Really? They are taking away stealth from the other classes? So only nightblades can stealth now? That’s pretty major. I play 3 different classes as bosmer, and losing the ability to stealth on my warden and dragon knight would be huge. Can you give me a link that shows that they intend to remove stealth from those classes?

    They're not removing stealth from any class or race, they're removing the 3 meter bonus to stealth from Wood Elf and replacing it with passives that benefit the race more on all classes.

    Your not making any sense. Since all classes can still stealth, the bonus benefits all classes.
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    max_only wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.

    Why take away the stealth bonus they had?

    This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.

    Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.

    Don’t quibble over the 3 meters. Pay attention to the completely useless passive of stealth detection. Stealth DETECTION.

    Where do you use this in PvE? Where in pve did you detect stealthed enemies? NO WHERE. It even says in the notes they wrote themselves that enemies in Tamriel don’t go around sneaking.

    Maybe ONE of the levels on ONE of the new dungeons in Elsweyr will require stealth detection, and that’s a big maybe.

    Wood Elf now has the same max Stamina as Imperial and Redguard and effectively higher Stam Recovery for a PvE build. You also get a 20% increase to movement speed after roll dodging for 3 seconds, combine that with Major Expedition from a Bow and that's StamSorc movement speed.

    Those three things are worth more than a 3 meter bonus to Stealth which they may end up adding to another passive skill line like Legerdemain.
    Edited by Twohothardware on January 17, 2019 11:47PM
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
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    Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.

    I agree that lore wise it would make sense to give them good sneaking abilities. However detection, apart from the fact of being completely useless, makes sense as well. Both together would be most fitting though. They hide in the shadows and watch their prey, waiting for the moment to strike, like most hunters do.

    But in the end I believe the combination of speed after dodging, very good sustain and a good load of stamina to be already a good overall package. If they add something to that it should not be that powerful. Also I believe that, although it would make much sense, neither detection, nor anti detection, nor a stronger hit from stealth are good ideas for additions to the woodelves toolkit. All of them are way too situational to benefit most woodelf players.

    So the real question is: What is a matching additional passive, that is not completely broken as an addition to this toolkit and feels nice for all players? Do we even need one?

    (And before anyone goes nuts about it. My main (and first char ever) is a woodelf and has ever been one. I play a lot of thievery and murdery stuff and I played her in PvP as well in a stealthy way. However I wholeheartedly throw those stealth buffs out of the window if it means getting buffs that are actually useful regardless of how and what I currently play)
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.

    There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.

    I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.

    Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.

    Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho
    Edited by Temeraire507 on January 18, 2019 12:41AM
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.

    There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.

    I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.

    Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.

    Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho

    I still don't see the need to remove it though. They are buffing the stealth Kahjit passive so it's not like they are AGAINST a stealth passive. So why remove it for Bosmer? Just let Bosmer keep the Stealth buff, there is zero need to remove it. None.

    Why is having two races that are good at stealth bad? There are multiple races that are good at spell casting, multiple races that are good at tanking. It just does not make sense.

    I can agree on the part that removing the stealth passive is not necessary and that it is not bad to have multiple races with stealth bonus. I also don't think this would hurt the game, however if we can get something else that is useful more often than stealth and not too strong in comparison with the other races (like the suggestions for more damage, cost reduction on bow, or even better sustain you can find in other threads. Currently the races seem to be well balanced and any of these would mess that balance up) I would prefer it over stealth.
  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Are we beginning to cry before this even hits PTS? I believe the changes to be very good. Yes the detection passive is useless, but the anti detection passive was also useless 95% of the time for PvP and 99% in PvE (Sets for sneaking almost made it pointless) or even more often.

    There are MANY quests that require the player to sneak through a restricted area. The sneak bonus is useful there. Not every person is going out and getting a special armor set for those quests. Not everyone runs around with the latest meta builds.

    I don't like to follow metas as well. But getting 3 pieces of night terror and 5 of night mothers embrace in any trait or quality should take you maybe 3k gold if not less or a few quests in the areas they drop in. I played 100% in about the half of the old areas, a lot in the rest and all DLC's and the chapters as well. I did only feel sneaking to be useful if I wanted to play Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild and a few quests in the chapters without getting a bounty that is very cheap, goes away while the guards don't catch me and can be reduced with the consumables the Thieves Guild throws at me to fill my inventory. In all quests except some dailies you can just sprint through all of the area and you're fine. And if generic_NPC_XY decides to attack you just throw them into the dirt in a few seconds.

    Actually I found strong sneaking to be way more useful to farm certain items (e.g. motifs) or money or to skip adds in open dungeons on a very low char, than in quests.

    Still, as I intended to say above, I love the sneaky playstyle. I often play sneaky just to play sneaky when going into the fight and killing everything (killing everything normal, of course I used the Blade of woe a lot) is way faster and way more effective. But it is just not worth all this trouble that is made around this passive imho

    I still don't see the need to remove it though. They are buffing the stealth Kahjit passive so it's not like they are AGAINST a stealth passive. So why remove it for Bosmer? Just let Bosmer keep the Stealth buff, there is zero need to remove it. None.

    Why is having two races that are good at stealth bad? There are multiple races that are good at spell casting, multiple races that are good at tanking. It just does not make sense.

    I can agree on the part that removing the stealth passive is not necessary and that it is not bad to have multiple races with stealth bonus. I also don't think this would hurt the game, however if we can get something else that is useful more often than stealth and not too strong in comparison with the other races (like the suggestions for more damage, cost reduction on bow, or even better sustain you can find in other threads. Currently the races seem to be well balanced and any of these would mess that balance up) I would prefer it over stealth.

    Khajiit get to keep and improve their stealth, and it is in a passive that also gives them something else that is useful across different playstyles. What people are saying, what I am saying, is either replace the useless 'detect hidden' part of the last passive with our original stealth bonus or add that bonus back in.

    I don't understand why there are so many people who have fallen in love with and married and had tons of kids with this stupid detect hidden passive.

    I said that I liked stealth but would prefer anything that is useful more often. I never said I would like stealth detection, I just said earlier than in that quote that it is justified in the lore as well as stealth and that the other new passive abilities of Bosmer are great. I doubt that anyone fell in love with stealth detection. It is completely useless in PvE and almost completely useless in PvP. If I want to detect someone I pop a potion or throw an AoE
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Updated with a tldr
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 850 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 850 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.

    I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.

    Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.
  • Temeraire507
    Temeraire507
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.

    I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.

    Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.

    Actually I believe stealth detection to be almost completely useless in PvP as well. And I guess I have lots of PvP players on my side. You are just not searching for someone by running around hoping to run into them. Of course this could be helpful in some very rare cases but it is unlikely to be used at all.

    And I believe @Lord_Dexter was speaking about Bosmer in general not that specific passive although this thread originally dealt with the stealth and stealth detection parts of the passives. Since this thread drifted away from the original post relatively fast I think that is totally understandable, but that's only my humble opinion on this
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.

    I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.

    Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.

    No, the post I replied to wasn't but the post THAT was replying to was a gloat that 'no ganking' type post.
    Also, I'm on your side here. I just want stealth the way it should be, not with the useless detect thing.

    So, no. Didn't miss that at all.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.

    I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.

    Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.

    No, the post I replied to wasn't but the post THAT was replying to was a gloat that 'no ganking' type post.
    Also, I'm on your side here. I just want stealth the way it should be, not with the useless detect thing.

    So, no. Didn't miss that at all.

    My apologies!!!!
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    I agree, this just feels like it cheats PvE players.

    Bosmer are now better for pve and pvp.

    Just gank builds are nerf for pvp!

    Oh word? Where is stealth detection used in pve?

    Not even the silliest part since gank builds are hardly affected, ganking would be done at range to get the long shots bonus, and out of cloak to get the cloak bonus. Hiding at range isn't affected, just hiding within 4m. The only effect to ganking is the loss of the 10% damage bonus that I haven't heard anyone really complain about.

    I think I also missed the part where I could gank any player in PVE.

    I think you also missed the part where Bosmer players just want their stealth back.

    Stealth detection is pointless in PvE (so it’s not better for PvE) and this does not appear to be a post complaining about losing the ability to “gank” other players.

    No, the post I replied to wasn't but the post THAT was replying to was a gloat that 'no ganking' type post.
    Also, I'm on your side here. I just want stealth the way it should be, not with the useless detect thing.

    So, no. Didn't miss that at all.

    My apologies!!!!

    np glhf
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.

    I hate to be a pedant, but it's their argumentation, or their reasoning that would be invalid, not 'their logic'. Logic is a noun, it's a thing, a well-defined structure that we use when forming arguments. Now, it is possible to incorrectly use logic, in which case you have faulty reasoning, or an invalid argument (statements by themselves can't be invalid). Just like someone's math can be wrong, but the formula/theorem, or the numbers that are used within that math can't be wrong, otherwise they wouldn't be using a formula/theorem or numbers, by definition.

    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    So now that I've successfully annoyed everyone, on to what I came here to say; why don't you just let them know you would like the reduced detection radius passive, rather than awkwardly calling them out on their reasoning? (oops, I just did that too!)
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself." - George Bernard Shaw
  • max_only
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    It seems that the only outlier here is the stealth detection. It is essentially, useless. Change that to what it used to be, or even better, something new and useful and we'll be golden.

    That’s it.
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 850 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Yamenstein
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    It seems that the only outlier here is the stealth detection. It is essentially, useless. Change that to what it used to be, or even better, something new and useful and we'll be golden.

    Is stealth detection useful in PvP? Or is it like PvE where nothing is stealthed in the first place where it doesn't matter.
  • ruikkarikun
    ruikkarikun
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    How do you think guys with new changes can bosmer be stam DK in PVP? xD (Just don't have that all aliance thing)
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