nsmurfer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Infused Berserker enchantment+100 mag recovery+8% cost reduction > 200 conditional regen+Infused Absorb Stamina.

He gave breton 10 and altmer 9 which is virtually the same in practice.

Can not agree with you,

258 SD of Altmers is either not working or worth nothing as per you?

In group buff no doubt Altmers surpass Breton.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

why are people complaining that the "tank" race do less damage. . .that's kind of the point. I agree that imperial needs something more unique or red diamond buffed but Nord is VERY strong this patch.

Yeah, Imperial, Nord and Argonian are quintessential support races, yet you can still run them as DPS if you want. This situation hasn't changed, and now people are suddenly up in arms?

So it's fine for a Healer race to also be a DPS race but NOT fine for a Tank Race to be a DPS race, despite the fact that both Imperial and Orc were solid DPS and Tank races prior to these changes? Also, people have been complaining about Nords for YEARS so to say that people are only now complaining is false as well.

Non racial test data is included in the metrics. As a base line for (non) dps affinity, the effective difference is marginal - - you can extrapolate from that, viability is now more subjective than ever with the changes proposed. Disadvantaged races, are not complete bottom feeders.

I was 'up in arms' about these modifications, but you can't argue the numbers and visualisations in OP. I suggest letting it sink in... ZOS has damn near achieved the impossible here. Any non dps race, with adequate load out and rotation is level pegged enough for dps role.

Mind... Blown...

Even so, Imperials, Argonian and Nords are getting pretty much shafted because they're supposed Tank Races whereas Orc, which was a Tank race, got a full on DPS redesign. Would adding a little love for them be that huge of a thing to ask for, especially Imperials and Argonian who probably got the short end of the stick if we're being totally honest. Imperial wasn't top tier in anything before these changes but were still a decent Stamina DPS race due to their large stat pools, now they're dead last. Argonians are just sort of there now since they don't excel in anything and their overall performance has dropped across the board.

Personally, I'd lower Imperials Stamina to 1000 with a 1000 Magic buff alongside it and change up Red Diamond to be a Tri-Stat restore effect upon activating a weapon ability with a CD instead of the % based chance Heal only. Nords could get a small Stamina restore for taking damage and split Resourceful up to 500 Magic/Stamina with an extra 100 Spell/Weapon damage added to the Life Mender Passive for Argonians.

I mean, it would have to be tested ofc but I don't think those small adjustments would break the balance on any of those races but it would give them a slight bump to their overall performance, which is a bit lacking ATM.

Uhh.... I need 10-14 race change tokens....

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Highly doubt especially on Altmers not being excellent, you are calling Breton excellent which lack 258 spell damage on theory so buffed 258 spell damage in group not performing even excellent?

Something wrong with you results.

Infused Berserker enchantment+100 mag recovery+8% cost reduction > 200 conditional regen+Infused Absorb Stamina.

He gave breton 10 and altmer 9 which is virtually the same in practice.

Can not agree with you,

258 SD of Altmers is either not working or worth nothing as per you?

In group buff no doubt Altmers surpass Breton.

Do you not understand how enchantments work?

Intextio wrote: »

So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?

hmm I don't know.... Do you have magicka toons that are Dunmer? I do... ZOS creating an expense for me is kind of a *** move. We'll see what changes they'll make.

Oh, based on his analysis, Altmer is very good at magDPS but Breton is better.... Who the heck played Breton as magDPS in the end game community?

So for now, magDPS is mostly Breton except on magplar where Khajit would be better. The best damage magDPS, Dunmer, is now one of the best stam. Altmer, which was pretty much on par or barely lower than Dunmer as magDPS is very good but not the best. Orc, a race nobody ever played in PvE is now one of the best stam. Redguard, well, most stams were redguard and now Dunmer is more versatile...

I don't know. I love the changes but all I see here is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Hard to accept since it involves money. I keep saying that I wouldn't mind grinding another skills line, buying a chapter. I'd spend money to get content. The race-change thing costs real world money and those changes, although very fun, will probably make them a load of money but you have to wonder if this whole thing was intentional.

What I get right now is people who didn't min-max don't care and people who min-max are either cautious because changes can be made or pissed because they'll have to pay to race-change.

Awesome information, thanks for sharing!

CleymenZero wrote: »

Intextio wrote: »

So is the lynch mob going to calm down now, or are they just going to keep screaming bloody murder?

hmm I don't know.... Do you have magicka toons that are Dunmer? I do... ZOS creating an expense for me is kind of a *** move. We'll see what changes they'll make.

Oh, based on his analysis, Altmer is very good at magDPS but Breton is better.... Who the heck played Breton as magDPS in the end game community?

So for now, magDPS is mostly Breton except on magplar where Khajit would be better. The best damage magDPS, Dunmer, is now one of the best stam. Altmer, which was pretty much on par or barely lower than Dunmer as magDPS is very good but not the best. Orc, a race nobody ever played in PvE is now one of the best stam. Redguard, well, most stams were redguard and now Dunmer is more versatile...

I don't know. I love the changes but all I see here is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Hard to accept since it involves money. I keep saying that I wouldn't mind grinding another skills line, buying a chapter. I'd spend money to get content. The race-change thing costs real world money and those changes, although very fun, will probably make them a load of money but you have to wonder if this whole thing was intentional.

What I get right now is people who didn't min-max don't care and people who min-max are either cautious because changes can be made or pissed because they'll have to pay to race-change.

The difference between Altmer and Breton Magicka DPS is tiny, not even worth mentioning. The DPS difference is <500, in some cases it's just 200 DPS which is not even a 0.5% difference. This is almost perfect balancing. And there is still complaining that Breton might be better than Altmer for Magicka DPS? The difference between "best Magicka race" and "worst Magicka race" is ~ 1.5k DPS (~2.5%). It's hilarious that anybody considers race changes because of an average 1000 more or less DPS.

The meta barely changed, if at all.

- Khajiit & Dunmer are the most versatile races, excelling in both Magicka and Stamina

- All of the Magicka races are very close together

- All of the Stamina races are very close together

- Argonian, Imperials and Nord are "underperforming" DPS wise due to their nature of being better tank races

The only complaint that I can understand is about Imperials underperforming overall which can easily be fixed by a small buff. All the other racial changes are - surprise surprise - excellent when it comes to balance.

ElliottXO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Hold your horses everyone.

Nord, Imperial and Argonian are not competing amongst DD, so in this regard they also don't need a buff.

You can't have tanking advantages and competitive DD roles at the same time.

The best end game tank play a Khajiit... Yes you read that right... a Khajiit... therefore tanking passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"tanking advantages", good one.

I am glad to know that you are the authority to decide on who the best tank is.

Following your argument all racial passives mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, which can also be derived from the OPs results.

In the end we are debating here about 3-5% performance in any role.

Pretty sure if you ask most people who the best tank is they would say Woeler as well, the dude has an entire website to tanking which I am sure every tank starting off has went to st some point for information.

https://woeler.eu/

Though the PvP aspects of each race needs some statistical breakdown and approximate weighting, I believe that the performance may not be so uniform for PvP. Builds might change race effectiveness, but some factors may make some races universally better or worse.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I frankly don't feel that high variance in khajiit parses is completely explained by the extra 8% of crit; if anything, such variance would be showing on live too for stamina khajiit builds (and I don't see such huge spread in my parses, even when I rely on axe bleed). On a small sample size like that (and not belittling @susmitds here, he'd done huge work and gave most insight than others on new state of things) some of that is just play of RNG that could have happened with any other race, but in this case did not.

@John_Falstaff
I feel that the variance can be decreased significantly with recovery enchants on jewelry or by using Bi-stat+recovery food. I was the Stamina NB DD for the tests and for every low DPS tests, the reason primarily tended to be not getting high crit rates, specifically more during the Major Force uptimes, after Incap Strike and during the execute phases. In Khajiit's case, in some cases, the initial two Major Force burn phases, resonated perfectly with the crits, DPS stayed high, and I went with low resource strain to the final phases. Some cases, the opposite happened causing the initial phases to last stages, forcing a heavy attack in the worst possible time of Major Force execution phase, which is a huge DPS loss.

For e.g, getting a 50k Bow Proc and 5 back to back 55k+ Killer's Blade during the final Major Force buffed execution phases is an incredible boost to DPS. There is also the chance of opposite with a heavy attack, non crit Bow proc and non-crit executes, wrecking the DPS results. Unlike Dunmer, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard or even Imperial, the only static damage increase passive for Khajiit Stamblade is 750 Stamina, which is significantly lesser than 2000 stamina or 250 weapon damage or both. This alone cannot make up for RNGesus failing me.

For magicka parses, the drain as well as the regen is higher, this creates a dynamic sustain condition, where parses tend to be more unforgiving (the primary reason why Breton is on top, as their passive significantly drops drain, instead of raising regen too much). Khajiit low sustain can cause standard deviation to be increased, which again gets affected by the resonance aspect previously mentioned.

In my solo tests, you will notice that deviation is significantly lower for Khajiit, as my parses are truly sustained by me with recovery food instead of relying on group, designed to last the entire parse, increasing the low parses. Also Major Force is not there to affect solo parses, which is the primary reason for some parses to hit those crazy highs compared to the rest, so Khajiit's high parses are lowered. Raising the floor and lowering the roof together keeps variance low. That's why, Dunmer ranks first in variance in solo parses, which is caused by sustain rather than RNG.

susmitds wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I frankly don't feel that high variance in khajiit parses is completely explained by the extra 8% of crit; if anything, such variance would be showing on live too for stamina khajiit builds (and I don't see such huge spread in my parses, even when I rely on axe bleed). On a small sample size like that (and not belittling @susmitds here, he'd done huge work and gave most insight than others on new state of things) some of that is just play of RNG that could have happened with any other race, but in this case did not.

@John_Falstaff
I feel that the variance can be decreased significantly with recovery enchants on jewelry or by using Bi-stat+recovery food. I was the Stamina NB DD for the tests and for every low DPS tests, the reason primarily tended to be not getting high crit rates, specifically more during the Major Force uptimes, after Incap Strike and during the execute phases. In Khajiit's case, in some cases, the initial two Major Force burn phases, resonated perfectly with the crits, DPS stayed high, and I went with low resource strain to the final phases. Some cases, the opposite happened causing the initial phases to last stages, forcing a heavy attack in the worst possible time of Major Force execution phase, which is a huge DPS loss.

For e.g, getting a 50k Bow Proc and 5 back to back 55k+ Killer's Blade during the final Major Force buffed execution phases is an incredible boost to DPS. There is also the chance of opposite with a heavy attack, non crit Bow proc and non-crit executes, wrecking the DPS results. Unlike Dunmer, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard or even Imperial, the only static damage increase passive for Khajiit Stamblade is 750 Stamina, which is significantly lesser than 2000 stamina or 250 weapon damage or both. This alone cannot make up for RNGesus failing me.

For magicka parses, the drain as well as the regen is higher, this creates a dynamic sustain condition, where parses tend to be more unforgiving (the primary reason why Breton is on top, as their passive significantly drops drain, instead of raising regen too much). Khajiit low sustain can cause standard deviation to be increase, which again gets affected by the resonance aspect previously mentioned.

In my solo tests, you will notice that deviation is significantly lower for Khajiit, as my parses are truly sustained by me with recovery food instead of relying on group, designed to last the entire parse, increasing the low parses. Also Major Force is not there to affect solo parses, which is the primary reason for some parses to hit those crazy highs compared to the rest, so Khajiit's high parses are lowered. Raising the floor and lowering the roof together keeps variance low. That's why, Dunmer ranks first in variance in solo parses, which is caused by sustain rather than RNG.

Would increasing Khajiit stam and mag sustain to 150 help with this while also not making them OP?

Having not read any of this, I can't believe ZOS killed Dunmer

Azyle1 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I frankly don't feel that high variance in khajiit parses is completely explained by the extra 8% of crit; if anything, such variance would be showing on live too for stamina khajiit builds (and I don't see such huge spread in my parses, even when I rely on axe bleed). On a small sample size like that (and not belittling @susmitds here, he'd done huge work and gave most insight than others on new state of things) some of that is just play of RNG that could have happened with any other race, but in this case did not.

@John_Falstaff
I feel that the variance can be decreased significantly with recovery enchants on jewelry or by using Bi-stat+recovery food. I was the Stamina NB DD for the tests and for every low DPS tests, the reason primarily tended to be not getting high crit rates, specifically more during the Major Force uptimes, after Incap Strike and during the execute phases. In Khajiit's case, in some cases, the initial two Major Force burn phases, resonated perfectly with the crits, DPS stayed high, and I went with low resource strain to the final phases. Some cases, the opposite happened causing the initial phases to last stages, forcing a heavy attack in the worst possible time of Major Force execution phase, which is a huge DPS loss.

For e.g, getting a 50k Bow Proc and 5 back to back 55k+ Killer's Blade during the final Major Force buffed execution phases is an incredible boost to DPS. There is also the chance of opposite with a heavy attack, non crit Bow proc and non-crit executes, wrecking the DPS results. Unlike Dunmer, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard or even Imperial, the only static damage increase passive for Khajiit Stamblade is 750 Stamina, which is significantly lesser than 2000 stamina or 250 weapon damage or both. This alone cannot make up for RNGesus failing me.

For magicka parses, the drain as well as the regen is higher, this creates a dynamic sustain condition, where parses tend to be more unforgiving (the primary reason why Breton is on top, as their passive significantly drops drain, instead of raising regen too much). Khajiit low sustain can cause standard deviation to be increase, which again gets affected by the resonance aspect previously mentioned.

In my solo tests, you will notice that deviation is significantly lower for Khajiit, as my parses are truly sustained by me with recovery food instead of relying on group, designed to last the entire parse, increasing the low parses. Also Major Force is not there to affect solo parses, which is the primary reason for some parses to hit those crazy highs compared to the rest, so Khajiit's high parses are lowered. Raising the floor and lowering the roof together keeps variance low. That's why, Dunmer ranks first in variance in solo parses, which is caused by sustain rather than RNG.

Would increasing Khajiit stam and mag sustain to 150 help with this while also not making them OP?

That is in my opinion the best option to stabilize Khajiit DPS. Take away the health regen, give Khajiit more breathing space for skill use. Also, it might even be needed to balance Khajiit for PvP, where 8% crit can become useless against the average guy with 3000 crit resist.